[USMA:18006] typographic units
This is the message I just sent to the ATypI (Association Typographique Internationale) and The Society of Typographic Aficianados (SoTA) At 9:31 +0100 02/02/7, Louis JOURDAN wrote: Sirs, I am completing a research study on the development of the metric system, now called SI (Système international d'unités) across the world and in the various sectors of activity. As you know, SI is now in use in practically all countries with the noticeable exception of the USA, and in all activities, with a few exceptions such as civil aviation, petroleum industry, and printing industry. I understand that the printing industry use special units to characterize the size of printing type : point, pica, cicero, twip. These names, however pleasant they are, do not say anything to the public because they are not easily related to any SI value. On the other hand I heard that sometimes the type size is given in Q, a Q (or kyu)having the value of 0.25 mm. Whilst one may regret that a new unit had been developed whilst the ubiquitous millimeter could have been used, at least the Q is easily understood by any person familiar with metric units. I am curious to know whether there is a chance that this unit be widely used. I thank you for the consideration you will give to my query. Sincerely, Louis Jourdan Louis
[USMA:18007] Re: Query about measurement!!
I would not propose a decimal series of paper formats as there is none and it would be impractical in this specific case. It is a fact that A paper sizes divide by progressive halving. I support the Q and A sizes. As for the Q: there is no proposal for any other non-decimal subdivion at all. Under the proposal those who need finer resolutions can go to 0.1 or any other decimal part of a millimeter. See Markus Kuhn's website. And again, if I see the trash the Q is to replace, then this infraction of SI rules in a very specific field is a small price to pay. However, CGPM should not officially sanction the Q, there it should always remain '0.25 mm'. A possiblility is, stop calling it a Q, refer to a 0.25 mm resolution, that will eliminate a unit or prefix name. It is possible that the typographic industry really needs this 0.25 mm resolution for the bulk of printing. Han - Original Message - From: Joseph B. Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 2002-02-06 20:04 Subject: [USMA:17989] Re: Query about measurement!! Han Maenen's USMA 17974 surprises me. It reminds me of Napoleon's customary metric system of 1812 which divided the metre in binary fractions. Even if the kyu or Q is a non-decimal part of the mm, it will replace lots and lots of ridiculous jetsam and flotsam. The 0.25 mm is still an acceptable decimal fraction. We should NOT built a system of typographical units on the Q; for everything else the millimeter should be enough. I am 100% in favour af adopting the Q or kyu, the sooner the better and I am also convinced that those who conceived it wanted to get rid of old and US printing units. Having a millimeter divided by 4 is a very small price to pay for a vast improvement. If they had gone to 1/8 then I would have said no as well. If the Q is ifp thinking, then the A-paper sizes are in fact the same as they are a binary series. What decimal series of paper sizes would Han propose? I agree with Ma Be's message in USMA 17953: Carter, Baron wrote: kyu: a metric unit of distance used in typography and graphic design. The kyu, originally written Q, is equal to exactly 0.25 millimeter... The thing that baffles me the most about this is why in the world didn't they go with the millimeter (or maybe even the micrometer)??? Ifp thinking at work here? Good grief... :-( Joseph B.Reid 17 Glebe Road West Toronto M5P 1C8 TEL. 416-486-6071
[USMA:18008] Re: +AFs-USMA:18001+AF0- KISS
kilopascal wrote: 2002-02-06 I wasn't suggesting an upgrade to a newer and fancier computer. Many older computers are upgradable simply by installing bigger hard drives and more memory Even if someone won't upgrade, there are still other alternatives. Such as getting a FREE Yahoo account and using it strictly for the list-server I get about 50+ emails a day, about 60 % of them HTML advertisements. I have a slow internet connection and they don't bother me. But, I often wonder how frustrating receiving hundreds of HTML e-mail ads a week must be to those that have out-dated software. I can't believe that my once-every-so-often HTML postings really makes that much of a difference compared to the hundreds of others. Your comments above tell me that you have missed the points in my message, John. You are still suggesting that people upgrade their systems, change the way they receive email, or both. Your justifications seem to be that those options are available and that you personally don't mind receiving the kind of email I spoke about. Let me be more explicit. Point: Nobody on this list should be expected to upgrade their system or change their method of receiving email in order to deal with HTML messages and forwarding of web pages since those are not needed to carry out our discussions. Plain text bodies almost always suffice; colors, enhanced fonts, and the like add nothing essential to the message. Forwarding links to web pages along with commentary on their essence is more useful than cold-forwarding of web pages; it also reflects greater thought on the part of the sender. In both cases, simple text and forwarding of URLs only, bandwidth is reduced significantly and the alternatives are wasteful. You have put forth no reason at all other than personal wont to justify sending messages in html or to justify sending unsolicited web pages, undoubtedly because they offer no advantage over the simple alternative of plain text. Point: It is presumptious to assume that people can or wish to do any amount of upgrading whatsoever or to change their way of receiving mail to accomodate your habits. You know absolutely nothing about the circumstances and reasons behind their requests and they are not obligated to tell you what those circumstances or reasons are. Point: Your personal feelings about receiving html messages and unsolicited web pages have no bearing on the matter. The feelings of others on the list do. That is often called netiquette. Before computers became pandemic, it was called good manners and consideration for the feelings of others. Since you have no overriding or compelling reason to persist in sending undesireable messages despite the feelings of others on the list, then you ought not do so. I have an extremely capable computer system and excellent connectivity. I am asking that you send your messages only in plain text and that you forward, with germane comments, URLs to web sites you have found rather than forwarding the web pages. That would accomodate me without limiting your ability to communicate your thoughts and without costing you extra time or effort. If you feel that your thoughts need the benefit of html formatting or that these unsolicited web pages adequately convey your point of view by themselves, then perhaps that tells us how valuable you think that your thoughts are to us here. You can put a dress on a dog, but it's still a dog. Jim -- Metric Methods(SM) Don't be late to metricate! James R. Frysinger, CAMS http://www.metricmethods.com/ 10 Captiva Row e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Charleston, SC 29407 phone/FAX: 843.225.6789
[USMA:18009] Re: Symbol for the micro
Hmm... Let's see if this will work: 0571 This looked fine by me in my home computer. I'd have to try it on the road (work, etc) though. Thanks, Jim. Let's hear from the gang and wait to see if ALL got the above ok. In the meantime, would you be so kind as to refer me to where I could obtain this new table (or provide me (in private) with an attachment I could print)? The one I have contains only 3-digit alt codes. Thank you kindly. Since I'm at it. Would you know of any means I could print the elusive a~ (a with the tilde *on top of it*). I can't find any easy way to print this anywhere... Thanks for any info you could provide me on this. Marcus On Wed, 06 Feb 2002 18:53:10 James R. Frysinger wrote: Marcus, A few years ago I made a short table of symbols that are more likely than others to translate well across platforms. Those are, with their PC keystrokes: 0 Alt-0176degree circle 5 Alt-0181mu 7 Alt-0183raised dot 1 Alt-0177plus/minus When I was using Windows regularly, those are the key-shortcuts I used. I've used my character map to write the symbols above so I'm not sure if they will come out the same, but I think that they might. By the way, you must include the zero (0) in those shortcuts! The sources of this information were Dennis Brownridge, Bob Baumer, and Markus Kuhn. In fact, I believe that if you go to the page linked on USMA's home page for Markus Kuhn's article on computer typography, you will see the same advice. Jim Ma Be wrote: Dear John, Thanks for the info, but I do have the ASCII code table handy... What I meant was that unfortunately there seems not be be any guarantee at all that by using alt-230 the symbol for 'mu' will appear correctly to all. That's the difficulty here. Just so you know what I mean, I'm using it here now as in micrometer: ?m! ;-) Marcus On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:37:32 John Woelflein wrote: Have you tried to hold down the Alt key (presuming you work on a PC and not a Mac) and pressing 230 on the numeric keypad? Ma Be [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:20:44 Marcus Berger wrote: ... sorry, guys, don't have the micro symbol here ... Slan, John - Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! Is your boss reading your email? Probably Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail. Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com -- Metric Methods(SM) Don't be late to metricate! James R. Frysinger, CAMS http://www.metricmethods.com/ 10 Captiva Row e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Charleston, SC 29407 phone/FAX: 843.225.6789 Is your boss reading your email? Probably Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail. Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com
[USMA:18010] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads are in kilometres, speeds in miles per hour
Kilopascal wrote in USMA 17999: When you cease using ancient software and get with the program and upgrade. You are the only one experiencing problems. The ball is now in your court. John - Original Message - From: Joseph B. Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 2002-02-06 14:04 Subject: [USMA:17987] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads are in kilometres, speeds in miles per hour Brian: In your USMA 17969 you again list Kilopascal's 15 nonsense attachments of USMA 17963. When is this going to cease? Joe I don't understand how modern software could eliminate your annoying 1rrevelancies in USMA 17963 which you repeated in USMA 17968. Would modern software enable me to scrub unwanteed attachments more rapidly? Joseph B.Reid 17 Glebe Road West Toronto M5P 1C8 TEL. 416-486-6071
[USMA:18011] Q discussion
My dearest friend, Han, please see my comments below. On Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:46:29 Han Maenen wrote: I would not propose a decimal series of paper formats as there is none and it would be impractical in this specific case. It is a fact that A paper sizes divide by progressive halving. You're right, in this particular case what's happening is a mathematical reality. If one wants to rationalize paper size there just is no way to avoid the inverse of the square root of two factor (or the so-called golden factor) for that purpose. However, the rationality has already been developed into the system by defining that the start of the A series sizes would be a neat 1 square meter! But the above is a different kind of problem compared to the Q discussion though. One thing is to allow mathematical/algebraic rules, etc, *having the SI as the backbone of presenting values*, define how products should be developed and quite another to use a non-SI *size itself* for that purpose! More on this below. I support the Q and A sizes. As for the Q: there is no proposal for any other non-decimal subdivion at all. True, but please consider this, Han. If one allows the use of an exception to the rule one would be giving the enemy the ammunition they need to shoot down the SI system as a whole as flawed by saying: Aha! There's an application where one can simply not work with a decimal framework! Here SIists must recognize that the mm or 5m won't cut it! I hope you can see, Han, from a *principle*'s point-of-view that we cannot allow such... compromises. Now, please understand that I'm discussing *matters of principle* here! I understand very well where you're coming from, and can sympathize with your position well-stated below (between '*...*'). It's a reasonable one indeed, so, please don't take me wrong on this, my dear friend. But I'd rather not give ANY room for ifpists to feed on! We must be able to counteract their arguments by showing that a size of 0.1 mm would address the issue perfectly well and for once and for all (if they can demonstrate unequivocally that mm or 5m wouldn't cut it)! It then would be up to the typographers' authorities to fix this mess by adopting it. And here, I wouldn't mind their using Q as a name for this (or another one, as using the same name may create confusion), as opposed to making a request before BIPM or CGPM for the creation of another prefix. Under the proposal those who need finer resolutions can go to 0.1 or any other decimal part of a millimeter. See Markus Kuhn's website. And again, *if I see the trash the Q is to replace, then this infraction of SI rules in a very specific field is a small price to pay*. However, CGPM should not officially sanction the Q, there it should always remain '0.25 mm'. Excellent. I must concur with you on this one. Q must remain an industrial thing, if it comes to that. A possiblility is, stop calling it a Q, refer to a 0.25 mm resolution, that will eliminate a unit or prefix name. And by doing the above values would refer directly to the mm, which would be the easier solution. Only problem is how can the software industry accommodate values that would require potentially up to 6 characters to represent!... At least with the 0.1 mm Q that would drop to 4 characters (they may not mind this extra character - they currently use 3, if I'm not mistaken). It is possible that the typographic industry really needs this 0.25 mm resolution for the bulk of printing. Fine, if they do, then the solution is clear, let's lobby them for the adoption of 0.1 mm instead. Marcus Is your boss reading your email? Probably Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail. Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com
[USMA:18012] Re: Symbol for the micro
This is most bizarre!... :-S Your message came fine, Jim. And when I used your suggestion all symbols printed fine in my monitor, but upon sending it via angelfire's server it got bastardized to some unrecognizable 0, 5, 7 and 1! :-S I wonder if this would also happen with another free e-mail service, like yahoo, or hotmail... Pity... It seems like we still don't seem to have an adequate ultimate final solution to this conundrum... And I had high hopes for it... Marcus On Thu, 07 Feb 2002 07:19:53 Ma Be wrote: Hmm... Let's see if this will work: 0571 This looked fine by me in my home computer. I'd have to try it on the road (work, etc) though. Thanks, Jim. Let's hear from the gang and wait to see if ALL got the above ok. In the meantime, would you be so kind as to refer me to where I could obtain this new table (or provide me (in private) with an attachment I could print)? The one I have contains only 3-digit alt codes. Thank you kindly. Since I'm at it. Would you know of any means I could print the elusive a~ (a with the tilde *on top of it*). I can't find any easy way to print this anywhere... Thanks for any info you could provide me on this. Marcus On Wed, 06 Feb 2002 18:53:10 James R. Frysinger wrote: Marcus, A few years ago I made a short table of symbols that are more likely than others to translate well across platforms. Those are, with their PC keystrokes: 0Alt-0176degree circle 5Alt-0181mu 7Alt-0183raised dot 1Alt-0177plus/minus When I was using Windows regularly, those are the key-shortcuts I used. I've used my character map to write the symbols above so I'm not sure if they will come out the same, but I think that they might. By the way, you must include the zero (0) in those shortcuts! The sources of this information were Dennis Brownridge, Bob Baumer, and Markus Kuhn. In fact, I believe that if you go to the page linked on USMA's home page for Markus Kuhn's article on computer typography, you will see the same advice. Jim Ma Be wrote: Dear John, Thanks for the info, but I do have the ASCII code table handy... What I meant was that unfortunately there seems not be be any guarantee at all that by using alt-230 the symbol for 'mu' will appear correctly to all. That's the difficulty here. Just so you know what I mean, I'm using it here now as in micrometer: ?m! ;-) Marcus On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:37:32 John Woelflein wrote: Have you tried to hold down the Alt key (presuming you work on a PC and not a Mac) and pressing 230 on the numeric keypad? Ma Be [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:20:44 Marcus Berger wrote: ... sorry, guys, don't have the micro symbol here ... Slan, John - Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! Is your boss reading your email? Probably Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail. Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com -- Metric Methods(SM) Don't be late to metricate! James R. Frysinger, CAMS http://www.metricmethods.com/ 10 Captiva Row e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Charleston, SC 29407 phone/FAX: 843.225.6789 Is your boss reading your email? Probably Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail. Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com Is your boss reading your email? Probably Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail. Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com
[USMA:18013] Re: Q discussion
Sorry, guys, that I surmised that Jim's approach to symbols would have worked. I was expecting that the micrometer would print fine, but it came as '5m' instead. Oh, well... Alright... I'll compromise here and accept to use 'um' from now on instead, so as to please most here... :-(... :-) Marcus On Thu, 07 Feb 2002 07:58:16 Ma Be wrote: My dearest friend, Han, please see my comments below. On Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:46:29 Han Maenen wrote: I would not propose a decimal series of paper formats as there is none and it would be impractical in this specific case. It is a fact that A paper sizes divide by progressive halving. You're right, in this particular case what's happening is a mathematical reality. If one wants to rationalize paper size there just is no way to avoid the inverse of the square root of two factor (or the so-called golden factor) for that purpose. However, the rationality has already been developed into the system by defining that the start of the A series sizes would be a neat 1 square meter! But the above is a different kind of problem compared to the Q discussion though. One thing is to allow mathematical/algebraic rules, etc, *having the SI as the backbone of presenting values*, define how products should be developed and quite another to use a non-SI *size itself* for that purpose! More on this below. I support the Q and A sizes. As for the Q: there is no proposal for any other non-decimal subdivion at all. True, but please consider this, Han. If one allows the use of an exception to the rule one would be giving the enemy the ammunition they need to shoot down the SI system as a whole as flawed by saying: Aha! There's an application where one can simply not work with a decimal framework! Here SIists must recognize that the mm or 5m won't cut it! I hope you can see, Han, from a *principle*'s point-of-view that we cannot allow such... compromises. Now, please understand that I'm discussing *matters of principle* here! I understand very well where you're coming from, and can sympathize with your position well-stated below (between '*...*'). It's a reasonable one indeed, so, please don't take me wrong on this, my dear friend. But I'd rather not give ANY room for ifpists to feed on! We must be able to counteract their arguments by showing that a size of 0.1 mm would address the issue perfectly well and for once and for all (if they can demonstrate unequivocally that mm or 5m wouldn't cut it)! It then would be up to the typographers' authorities to fix this mess by adopting it. And here, I wouldn't mind their using Q as a name for this (or another one, as using the same name may create confusion), as opposed to making a request before BIPM or CGPM for the creation of another prefix. Under the proposal those who need finer resolutions can go to 0.1 or any other decimal part of a millimeter. See Markus Kuhn's website. And again, *if I see the trash the Q is to replace, then this infraction of SI rules in a very specific field is a small price to pay*. However, CGPM should not officially sanction the Q, there it should always remain '0.25 mm'. Excellent. I must concur with you on this one. Q must remain an industrial thing, if it comes to that. A possiblility is, stop calling it a Q, refer to a 0.25 mm resolution, that will eliminate a unit or prefix name. And by doing the above values would refer directly to the mm, which would be the easier solution. Only problem is how can the software industry accommodate values that would require potentially up to 6 characters to represent!... At least with the 0.1 mm Q that would drop to 4 characters (they may not mind this extra character - they currently use 3, if I'm not mistaken). It is possible that the typographic industry really needs this 0.25 mm resolution for the bulk of printing. Fine, if they do, then the solution is clear, let's lobby them for the adoption of 0.1 mm instead. Marcus Is your boss reading your email? Probably Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail. Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com Is your boss reading your email? Probably Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail. Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com
[USMA:18014] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads are in kilometres, speeds in miles per hour
I did get John's message USMA 17963 with all these attachments. If I delete a message, the attachments go down the drain with it. I also have a program with which I can list all unused and trashy files and delete them with a click of the mouse. It should be possible with an Apple computer. Han Quoten Joseph B. Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Kilopascal wrote in USMA 17999: When you cease using ancient software and get with the program and upgrade. You are the only one experiencing problems. The ball is now in your court. John - Original Message - From: Joseph B. Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 2002-02-06 14:04 Subject: [USMA:17987] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads are in kilometres, speeds in miles per hour Brian: In your USMA 17969 you again list Kilopascal's 15 nonsense attachments of USMA 17963. When is this going to cease? Joe I don't understand how modern software could eliminate your annoying 1rrevelancies in USMA 17963 which you repeated in USMA 17968. Would modern software enable me to scrub unwanteed attachments more rapidly? Joseph B.Reid 17 Glebe Road West Toronto M5P 1C8 TEL. 416-486-6071
[USMA:18015] metric for IP products
2002 February 7 I just received this note from R. Schulte, President of ASTM. At one time I was employed in the gas utility industry. I related to you the difficulties that this one business sector, the natural gas and propane distribution industry, faces in moving to the use of SI units. Gas utilities in the U.S. are delivering fuel to an estimated 200 million gas-fired appliances installed in residences and commercial buildings. The industry has not been able to figure out how it could switch pipe and thread sizes to metric units without introducing large gas leak (safety) problems into the gas distribution networks where service and installation technicians would be dealing with a mix of metric and IP threads. This one, narrow example has led me to understand why the adoption of metric units in ASTM standards remains a committee-by-commitee and sector-by-sector issue. At the same time, parts of the gas industry have learned the value of metric unit measurement. Maybe five years back, I had the experience of visiting an appliance production plant where they faced a shortage of trained production workers. The company, therefore, was hiring new staff and putting them through an in-plant education program. The company quickly discovered that their new employees were available in the labor market, in part, because they lacked math skills. Some new employees could not manipulate fractions at all. The company, therefore, adopted the strategy of teaching production line workers measurement methods based on metric units that were seen as easier to use than IP units. This meant, in effect, that the company ended up making some appliance components for an inch-pound market using metric measurement tools and methods in the plant. This example suggests to me that U.S. industry is not unaware of the value of metric measurement; we just haven't found a good place to make the introduction of SI units in an economical and safe manner. Robert Bushnell
[USMA:18016] Re: Symbol for the micro
At 7:19 -0800 02/02/7, Ma Be wrote: Hmm... Let's see if this will work: 0571 Did you really mean that ? Since I'm at it. Would you know of any means I could print the elusive a~ (a with the tilde *on top of it*). I can't find any easy way to print this anywhere... Thanks for any info you could provide me on this. ã : on my Mac I get it in typing Alt+n and then a. Don't ask me how it works, rather tell me if you receive it properly. Louis
[USMA:18017] Internet Access
John wrote: ... I'm dying ... to hear what excuse will be given for not opening a FREE Yahoo account A free hard-wire connection at 10 megabits per second to a UNIX Server for Internet access, and a free account on the Server with many gigabytes of memory. But please don't die on my account, John. Gene.
[USMA:18018] Re: typographic units
In France, we now use SI units. This revolution was brought by the americans desktop publishing software who gives the user the choice of units (Pica, Cicero, inches, etc.). Twenty years ago, the use the Cidero point was universal in France. It's no more the case. We still have a few problems when we buy books from the USA. As Americans don't use standard paper dimensions (A1, A2, A4, etc.), we have to adapt the lay out with an added cost of 15 to 20 %. Nevertheless, we still use Imperial units to scan pictures : dots per inch are the present standard. Best regards = Trystan Mordrel 11 place de l'Eglise 56350 Allaire __ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com
[USMA:18019] Re: Well, KSL (Channel 5) is now in SI also, but...
On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, Nikolay O. Malyarov wrote: ... As I watched KSL (Channel 5), I noticed that they added °C to the high temperatures for today for various venues around the Games, and didn't even refer to the °F at all. That part is great, Nikolay. Please call Channel 5 and express your pleasure on behalf of your hosted hockey team. ... only temperatures are being reported in SI. No other data [are]. Please give some examples, Nikolay. Did they convert 100 m to feet? Did they convert 1000 m or 10 km to feet? What non-SI units were used? Gene.
[USMA:18020] NCTM WebNews Update (February 2002) (fwd)
Here (a selection from several announcements) is an opportunity to push more SI into K-12 education. What should we do? Gene. -- Forwarded message -- Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 10:13:40 -0500 From: webmaster [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: NCTM WebNews Update (February 2002) ... Teaching Children Mathematics for Light the Math Within, ... This month's activities focus on the math opportunities that abound as part of the 2002 Olympic Games. http://my.nctm.org/resources/article_summary.asp?article_id=1863from=B ...
[USMA:18021] Deletions
On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, Joseph B. Reid asked: ... Would modern software enable me to scrub unwanteed attachments more rapidly? Joe, I delete almost all attachments, *and* e-mail (after scanning) in less than a second by working directly on my UNIX Server by, some would say, antiquated software (PINE), *without* any downloading. E-mail *not deleted* is retained on the Server. Does your browser provide remote access (e.g. by telnet) to your e-mail account without downloading? That would be a faster way to scrub unwanted items than downloading. Gene.
[USMA:18022] Re: Symbol for the micro
My guess for producing a tilde on a PC would be Alt-0227. That's based on the extended ASCII table. Jim Louis JOURDAN wrote: At 7:19 -0800 02/02/7, Ma Be wrote: Hmm... Let's see if this will work: 0571 Did you really mean that ? Since I'm at it. Would you know of any means I could print the elusive a~ (a with the tilde *on top of it*). I can't find any easy way to print this anywhere... Thanks for any info you could provide me on this. : on my Mac I get it in typing Alt and then a. Don't ask me how it works, rather tell me if you receive it properly. Louis -- Metric Methods(SM) Don't be late to metricate! James R. Frysinger, CAMS http://www.metricmethods.com/ 10 Captiva Row e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Charleston, SC 29407 phone/FAX: 843.225.6789
[USMA:18023] Gimli Glider
Kilopascal wrote in USMA 18003 What is meant by the statement below: the brand new, all metric 767 was.? Is this meant to tell us that the Boeing 767 is a true metric plane? Was it designed in metric? Does it contain metric parts, such as metric fasteners? John The flight crew had never been trained how to perform the drip calculations. To be safe they re-ran the numbers three times to be absolutely, positively sure the refuelers hadn't made any mistakes-each time using 1.77 pounds/liter as the specific gravity factor. This factor was written on the refueler's slip and was used on all of the other planes in Air Canada's fleet. The factor the refuelers and the crew should have used on the brand new, all-metric 767 was .8 kg/liter of kerosene. The quotation put the situation incorrectly. Everything about the 767 structure was inch-pound. However, its instruments gave metric readings and its documentation was metric. Hence the Gimli Glider. Joseph B.Reid 17 Glebe Road West Toronto M5P 1C8 TEL. 416-486-6071
[USMA:18024] Low Tech SI
My page on Low Tech SI, suitable for use in email, has been updated and is available at http://www.cofc.edu/~frysingj/lowtech.htm Jim -- Metric Methods(SM) Don't be late to metricate! James R. Frysinger, CAMS http://www.metricmethods.com/ 10 Captiva Row e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Charleston, SC 29407 phone/FAX: 843.225.6789
[USMA:18025] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads arein kilometres, speeds in miles per hour
At 19:59 +0100 02/02/7, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I did get John's message USMA 17963 with all these attachments. If I delete a message, the attachments go down the drain with it. I also have a program with which I can list all unused and trashy files and delete them with a click of the mouse. It should be possible with an Apple computer. Yes. Eudora 5.1 Louis
[USMA:18026] Re: Metric in american Industry
Dear John and All, on 2002/02/06 10.47, kilopascal at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2002-02-05 There are still some jobs in the auto plants where a person must do some measuring. I doubt all the auto jobs have been replaced by robots. Machinists still have to do some set-up which requires measuring, as well as checking critical dimensions on the parts they make. Also, Inspectors have to check parts to see if they are to print, etc. What about these positions? As I understand it in Australia, all of these would be set up and checked using millimetres. Generally the accuracy would be to one tenth of a millimetre, but micrometres would be used when required. Cheers, Pat Naughtin CAMS - Certified Advanced Metrication Specialist - United States Metric Association ASM - Accredited Speaking Member - National Speakers Association of Australia Member, International Federation for Professional Speakers --
[USMA:18028] Re: Symbol for the micro -- starting to drift off topic
On my PC (which is configured for U.S. International), all I have to do is enter a tilde (~) then an a: ã. If I enter anything other than a, A, o, O, n or N after the tilde, I get the tilde followed by the other character. If I want an isolated tilde, I enter it and then press the space bar. If I want a space to follow, I press the space bar again. ãÃõÕñÑ~ The same principle applies to grave, circumflex and acute accents, plus the umlaut (dieresis) and cedilla. Bill Potts, CMS Roseville, CA http://metric1.org [SI Navigator] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Louis JOURDAN Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 07:54 To: U.S. Metric Association Subject: [USMA:18016] Re: Symbol for the micro At 7:19 -0800 02/02/7, Ma Be wrote: Hmm... Let's see if this will work: 0571 Did you really mean that ? Since I'm at it. Would you know of any means I could print the elusive a~ (a with the tilde *on top of it*). I can't find any easy way to print this anywhere... Thanks for any info you could provide me on this. ã : on my Mac I get it in typing Alt+n and then a. Don't ask me how it works, rather tell me if you receive it properly. Louis
[USMA:18027] Re: Announcement from USMA
Dear Jim, Congratulations on this award; clearly you richly deserved it. Cheers, Pat Naughtin Geelong, Australia on 2002/02/07 05.29, Hillger, Don at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Congratulations to Jim Frysinger from USMA! IEEE President, Raymond D. Findlay, has announced the elevation of James Frysinger to the grade of IEEE Senior Member. Dr. Findlay states Only 7% of our approximately 377,000 IEEE members hold this grade which requires experience reflecting professional maturity and significant professional achievements. Included among his many pursuits is his work on two IEEE standards committees, both related to SI. As a member of IEEE Standards Coordinating Committee 14, Frysinger chairs the SCC14.3 subcommittee which is about to put forth two standards for balloting: P1541, Standard Prefixes for Binary Multiples and P260.1, Standard Letter Symbols for Units of Measurement He also serves as an IEEE nonvoting member on the ASTM/IEEE Committee for Maintaining SI 10, which is about to ballot a revised edition of SI 10. Frysinger is the webmaster for both of these committees. He is also a member of the American Welding Society A1 Committee on Metric Practice and helped to develop the latest edition of the AWS Metric Practice Guide for the Welding Industry, which has just been published.
[USMA:18029] KSL-TV Salt Lake's ABC affiliate of Atlanta's WSB-TV
I was just watching the news on WSB when the Atlanta weathercaster was chatting with the Atlanta newscaster on site in Salt Lake. Our weatherman said It must be about 35° or 36° there, right? The reply from Salt Lake was, yes, it is about 1° or 2°Celsius Can it be that Salt Lake is actually saying both for the public, at least for this Olympic period? Norm
[USMA:18030] Special Characters, web page on
Marcus and other interested list members, By golly, I found that link to Bob Baumel's web page on Using Special Characters on Web Pages: Cross-Platform Considerations by Bob Baumel. His page is at http://home.earthlink.net/~bobbau/platforms/specialchars/ It turns out that I had it as a reference on my Rules on [SI] Usage page at http://www.cofc.edu/~frysingj/rules.htm in case your bookmarks get lost, as mine did. On Bob's page (in the first paragraph) is a link to his Unicode Test Page http://home.earthlink.net/~bobbau/platforms/specialchars/unicode.html and about halfway down that page is a short table with the characters I provided earlier plus enya (n tilde). Those are characters he considers likely to come out alright on PCs and Macs. Bob does an excellent job of presenting the differences among Windows OS, Mac OS, and Unix as well as an opportunity to test your own system. For the newcomers, he used to be a regular contributor here. I still caution people that common set of characters are no guarantee. My Low Tech SI page suggestions are probably safer to use. Jim -- Metric Methods(SM) Don't be late to metricate! James R. Frysinger, CAMS http://www.metricmethods.com/ 10 Captiva Row e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Charleston, SC 29407 phone/FAX: 843.225.6789
[USMA:18031] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads are in kilometres, speeds in miles per hour
2002-02-07 Somehow your software (or someone else's) is breaking the attachments out into separate elements. Outlook Express does not do that. When I received back USMA 17963, which was a forwarding of the webpage on Puerto Rico, there were no attachments. However, when I received USMA 17964, there were attachments. It is possible that Brian's software broke the webpage up into the attachments. Brian, if you are reading this, can you tell us what e-mail program you are using? You may need to upgrade too! But, anyway, whether there are no attachments or 500 000 000 attachments, they don't have to be deleted separately. When I delete the posting, the attachments are all deleted as part of the posting in one swoop. Doesn't your software do this? If it doesn't, it is time to get rid of it. Now, I remember from a few years ago you were using some earlier version of Eudora. Eudora is now available in version 5.1, for both PC and Mac. Try downloading it and installing it and see if it is easier to work with. http://www.eudora.com/products/eudora/updater1.html Or, go to http://mail.yahoo.com/?.intl=us and sign-up for a free yahoo account. Un-subscribe from the listserver and resubscribe using the new Yahoo account. Try it for a month, and if it doesn't solve your problems, then you can go back to using FFU, I mean FFS (Fred Flintstone Software). It's free, so there is no loss to try it. John P.S. No wonder we are having such a hard time getting people to use SI instead of FFU. If some of us are backwards thinking in our use of outdated software and resist upgrading, how can we proponents of SI expect the general population to give up what they feel comfortable with, just because we say it is better? It is the same logic. We won't give up on using old software because we are comfortable with it, and they won't give up FFU for the same reason. What a shame! - Original Message - From: Joseph B. Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 2002-02-07 10:55 Subject: [USMA:18010] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads are in kilometres, speeds in miles per hour Kilopascal wrote in USMA 17999: When you cease using ancient software and get with the program and upgrade. You are the only one experiencing problems. The ball is now in your court. John - Original Message - From: Joseph B. Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 2002-02-06 14:04 Subject: [USMA:17987] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads are in kilometres, speeds in miles per hour Brian: In your USMA 17969 you again list Kilopascal's 15 nonsense attachments of USMA 17963. When is this going to cease? Joe I don't understand how modern software could eliminate your annoying 1rrevelancies in USMA 17963 which you repeated in USMA 17968. Would modern software enable me to scrub unwanteed attachments more rapidly? Joseph B.Reid 17 Glebe Road West Toronto M5P 1C8 TEL. 416-486-6071
[USMA:18032] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads are in kilometres, speeds in miles per hour
However, when I received USMA 17964, there were attachments. It is possible that Brian's software broke the webpage up into the attachments. Brian, if you are reading this, can you tell us what e-mail program you are using? You may need to upgrade too! I considered that, which is why I was apologetic. I use Eudora 5.1 running under Windows 2000 Professional. Don't think I need to upgrade just yet. *wink* But, anyway, whether there are no attachments or 500 000 000 attachments, they don't have to be deleted separately. When I delete the posting, the attachments are all deleted as part of the posting in one swoop. Doesn't your software do this? If it doesn't, it is time to get rid of it. Now, I remember from a few years ago you were using some earlier version of Eudora. Eudora is now available in version 5.1, for both PC and Mac. Try downloading it and installing it and see if it is easier to work with. http://www.eudora.com/products/eudora/updater1.html
[USMA:18033] Re: Q discussion
2002-02-07 Time to upgrade our software. Think of upgrading as switching from FFU to SI. For µ, I use the IBM code page of alt-230 or the Windows Character Map symbol of alt-0181 (µ). Both work. John - Original Message - From: Ma Be [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 2002-02-07 11:14 Subject: [USMA:18013] Re: Q discussion Sorry, guys, that I surmised that Jim's approach to symbols would have worked. I was expecting that the micrometer would print fine, but it came as '5m' instead. Oh, well... Alright... I'll compromise here and accept to use 'um' from now on instead, so as to please most here... :-(... :-) Marcus On Thu, 07 Feb 2002 07:58:16 Ma Be wrote: My dearest friend, Han, please see my comments below. On Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:46:29 Han Maenen wrote: I would not propose a decimal series of paper formats as there is none and it would be impractical in this specific case. It is a fact that A paper sizes divide by progressive halving. You're right, in this particular case what's happening is a mathematical reality. If one wants to rationalize paper size there just is no way to avoid the inverse of the square root of two factor (or the so-called golden factor) for that purpose. However, the rationality has already been developed into the system by defining that the start of the A series sizes would be a neat 1 square meter! But the above is a different kind of problem compared to the Q discussion though. One thing is to allow mathematical/algebraic rules, etc, *having the SI as the backbone of presenting values*, define how products should be developed and quite another to use a non-SI *size itself* for that purpose! More on this below. I support the Q and A sizes. As for the Q: there is no proposal for any other non-decimal subdivion at all. True, but please consider this, Han. If one allows the use of an exception to the rule one would be giving the enemy the ammunition they need to shoot down the SI system as a whole as flawed by saying: Aha! There's an application where one can simply not work with a decimal framework! Here SIists must recognize that the mm or 5m won't cut it! I hope you can see, Han, from a *principle*'s point-of-view that we cannot allow such... compromises. Now, please understand that I'm discussing *matters of principle* here! I understand very well where you're coming from, and can sympathize with your position well-stated below (between '*...*'). It's a reasonable one indeed, so, please don't take me wrong on this, my dear friend. But I'd rather not give ANY room for ifpists to feed on! We must be able to counteract their arguments by showing that a size of 0.1 mm would address the issue perfectly well and for once and for all (if they can demonstrate unequivocally that mm or 5m wouldn't cut it)! It then would be up to the typographers' authorities to fix this mess by adopting it. And here, I wouldn't mind their using Q as a name for this (or another one, as using the same name may create confusion), as opposed to making a request before BIPM or CGPM for the creation of another prefix. Under the proposal those who need finer resolutions can go to 0.1 or any other decimal part of a millimeter. See Markus Kuhn's website. And again, *if I see the trash the Q is to replace, then this infraction of SI rules in a very specific field is a small price to pay*. However, CGPM should not officially sanction the Q, there it should always remain '0.25 mm'. Excellent. I must concur with you on this one. Q must remain an industrial thing, if it comes to that. A possiblility is, stop calling it a Q, refer to a 0.25 mm resolution, that will eliminate a unit or prefix name. And by doing the above values would refer directly to the mm, which would be the easier solution. Only problem is how can the software industry accommodate values that would require potentially up to 6 characters to represent!... At least with the 0.1 mm Q that would drop to 4 characters (they may not mind this extra character - they currently use 3, if I'm not mistaken). It is possible that the typographic industry really needs this 0.25 mm resolution for the bulk of printing. Fine, if they do, then the solution is clear, let's lobby them for the adoption of 0.1 mm instead. Marcus Is your boss reading your email? Probably Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail. Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com Is your boss reading your email? Probably Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail. Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com
[USMA:18034] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads are in kilometres, speeds in miles per hour
2002-02-07 That depends Han. If the person is using FFS (Fred Flintstone Software), it may not have the capability. Using 21-st century AD software instead of BC would solve that problem. Also, opening a Yahoo account, would also work. With Yahoo, you don't need to download anything. You view the contents of your mailbox in your browser and can easily delete anything in seconds. Remember, resisting upgrading one's software is like sticking with FFU. It is done because the user perceives he/she is comfortable with the old and familiar. The same logic to hold onto FFS is the same logic used to stick with FFU. Do you see the connection? John - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 2002-02-07 13:29 Subject: [USMA:18014] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads are in kilometres, speeds in miles per hour I did get John's message USMA 17963 with all these attachments. If I delete a message, the attachments go down the drain with it. I also have a program with which I can list all unused and trashy files and delete them with a click of the mouse. It should be possible with an Apple computer. Han
[USMA:18036] Re: Internet Access
2002-02-07 My comment was directed to those who aren't as fortunate to have what you have. In your case you don't need a Yahoo account. But, those at the other end of the spectrum would benefit. On the other hand, maybe you can host some of these poor peoples e-mail for them, for free of course. So, no such luck I your partI don't plan on dying just yet. John - Original Message - From: Gene Mechtly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: kilopascal [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Metric Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 2002-02-07 14:09 Subject: Internet Access John wrote: ... I'm dying ... to hear what excuse will be given for not opening a FREE Yahoo account A free hard-wire connection at 10 megabits per second to a UNIX Server for Internet access, and a free account on the Server with many gigabytes of memory. But please don't die on my account, John. Gene.
[USMA:18037] Re: Gimli Glider
2002-02-07 Which instruments gave metric readings? Were altitudes shown in metres and velocities in metres per second, or kilometres per hour? Is this plane still made today and is it still metric relative to what it was back in the days of the Gimli Glider? John The quotation put the situation incorrectly. Everything about the 767 structure was inch-pound. However, its instruments gave metric readings and its documentation was metric. Hence the Gimli Glider. Joseph B.Reid 17 Glebe Road West Toronto M5P 1C8 TEL. 416-486-6071
[USMA:18038] Re: Metric in american Industry
2002-02-07 Thanks for the info. I know this is done this way in Australia, but I wanted to know if it is done this way in the US plants. Is an Engineering drawing converted to FFU for use on the shop floor? Does anyone know for sure? John - Original Message - From: Pat Naughtin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: kilopascal [EMAIL PROTECTED]; U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 2002-02-07 16:59 Subject: Re: [USMA:17962] Re: Metric in american Industry Dear John and All, on 2002/02/06 10.47, kilopascal at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2002-02-05 There are still some jobs in the auto plants where a person must do some measuring. I doubt all the auto jobs have been replaced by robots. Machinists still have to do some set-up which requires measuring, as well as checking critical dimensions on the parts they make. Also, Inspectors have to check parts to see if they are to print, etc. What about these positions? As I understand it in Australia, all of these would be set up and checked using millimetres. Generally the accuracy would be to one tenth of a millimetre, but micrometres would be used when required. Cheers, Pat Naughtin CAMS - Certified Advanced Metrication Specialist - United States Metric Association ASM - Accredited Speaking Member - National Speakers Association of Australia Member, International Federation for Professional Speakers --
[USMA:18039] Re: Q discussion
I use Ctrl+Alt+m -- µ. U.S. International support, of course. It's easy to configure. Of all the special characters, the µ is the one that is definitely consistent across platforms (i.e., PC and Mac). Bill Potts, CMS Roseville, CA http://metric1.org [SI Navigator] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of kilopascal Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 15:46 To: U.S. Metric Association Subject: [USMA:18033] Re: Q discussion 2002-02-07 Time to upgrade our software. Think of upgrading as switching from FFU to SI. For µ, I use the IBM code page of alt-230 or the Windows Character Map symbol of alt-0181 (µ). Both work. John - Original Message - From: Ma Be [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 2002-02-07 11:14 Subject: [USMA:18013] Re: Q discussion Sorry, guys, that I surmised that Jim's approach to symbols would have worked. I was expecting that the micrometer would print fine, but it came as '5m' instead. Oh, well... Alright... I'll compromise here and accept to use 'um' from now on instead, so as to please most here... :-(... :-) Marcus On Thu, 07 Feb 2002 07:58:16 Ma Be wrote: My dearest friend, Han, please see my comments below. On Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:46:29 Han Maenen wrote: I would not propose a decimal series of paper formats as there is none and it would be impractical in this specific case. It is a fact that A paper sizes divide by progressive halving. You're right, in this particular case what's happening is a mathematical reality. If one wants to rationalize paper size there just is no way to avoid the inverse of the square root of two factor (or the so-called golden factor) for that purpose. However, the rationality has already been developed into the system by defining that the start of the A series sizes would be a neat 1 square meter! But the above is a different kind of problem compared to the Q discussion though. One thing is to allow mathematical/algebraic rules, etc, *having the SI as the backbone of presenting values*, define how products should be developed and quite another to use a non-SI *size itself* for that purpose! More on this below. I support the Q and A sizes. As for the Q: there is no proposal for any other non-decimal subdivion at all. True, but please consider this, Han. If one allows the use of an exception to the rule one would be giving the enemy the ammunition they need to shoot down the SI system as a whole as flawed by saying: Aha! There's an application where one can simply not work with a decimal framework! Here SIists must recognize that the mm or 5m won't cut it! I hope you can see, Han, from a *principle*'s point-of-view that we cannot allow such... compromises. Now, please understand that I'm discussing *matters of principle* here! I understand very well where you're coming from, and can sympathize with your position well-stated below (between '*...*'). It's a reasonable one indeed, so, please don't take me wrong on this, my dear friend. But I'd rather not give ANY room for ifpists to feed on! We must be able to counteract their arguments by showing that a size of 0.1 mm would address the issue perfectly well and for once and for all (if they can demonstrate unequivocally that mm or 5m wouldn't cut it)! It then would be up to the typographers' authorities to fix this mess by adopting it. And here, I wouldn't mind their using Q as a name for this (or another one, as using the same name may create confusion), as opposed to making a request before BIPM or CGPM for the creation of another prefix. Under the proposal those who need finer resolutions can go to 0.1 or any other decimal part of a millimeter. See Markus Kuhn's website. And again, *if I see the trash the Q is to replace, then this infraction of SI rules in a very specific field is a small price to pay*. However, CGPM should not officially sanction the Q, there it should always remain '0.25 mm'. Excellent. I must concur with you on this one. Q must remain an industrial thing, if it comes to that. A possiblility is, stop calling it a Q, refer to a 0.25 mm resolution, that will eliminate a unit or prefix name. And by doing the above values would refer directly to the mm, which would be the easier solution. Only problem is how can the software industry accommodate values that would require potentially up to 6 characters to represent!... At least with the 0.1 mm Q that would drop to 4 characters (they may not mind this extra character - they currently use 3, if I'm not mistaken). It is possible that the typographic industry really needs this 0.25 mm resolution for the bulk of printing. Fine, if they do, then the solution is clear, let's lobby them for the adoption of 0.1 mm instead. Marcus Is your boss reading your email? Probably Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail. Sign up today at
[USMA:18035] Re: metric for IP products
2002-02-07 Interesting. Even if it isn't practical to change threads to SI, or manufacturing adapters when fitting an SI pipe to a FFU pipe, there is no reason the FFU diameter and thread pitch can not be expressed in millimetres. What you said about an industry going metric because its new hirees could not function in FFU, is something to expand on. It might help to get the word out to other industries. Maybe some of the companies that experience a lot of wastage do to employees not doing it right in FFU, can be shown by example that they can become more efficient if they went to SI. Sheer economics should be enough reason to change. John - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 2002-02-07 13:36 Subject: [USMA:18015] metric for IP products 2002 February 7 I just received this note from R. Schulte, President of ASTM. At one time I was employed in the gas utility industry. I related to you the difficulties that this one business sector, the natural gas and propane distribution industry, faces in moving to the use of SI units. Gas utilities in the U.S. are delivering fuel to an estimated 200 million gas-fired appliances installed in residences and commercial buildings. The industry has not been able to figure out how it could switch pipe and thread sizes to metric units without introducing large gas leak (safety) problems into the gas distribution networks where service and installation technicians would be dealing with a mix of metric and IP threads. This one, narrow example has led me to understand why the adoption of metric units in ASTM standards remains a committee-by-commitee and sector-by-sector issue. At the same time, parts of the gas industry have learned the value of metric unit measurement. Maybe five years back, I had the experience of visiting an appliance production plant where they faced a shortage of trained production workers. The company, therefore, was hiring new staff and putting them through an in-plant education program. The company quickly discovered that their new employees were available in the labor market, in part, because they lacked math skills. Some new employees could not manipulate fractions at all. The company, therefore, adopted the strategy of teaching production line workers measurement methods based on metric units that were seen as easier to use than IP units. This meant, in effect, that the company ended up making some appliance components for an inch-pound market using metric measurement tools and methods in the plant. This example suggests to me that U.S. industry is not unaware of the value of metric measurement; we just haven't found a good place to make the introduction of SI units in an economical and safe manner. Robert Bushnell
[USMA:18040] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads are in kilometres, speeds in miles per hour
2002-02-07 This could be a bug with Eudora, or it could be something is not set up properly. I think others who use Eudora don't have this problem of it turning an HTML page into attachments. You might want to contact the people who write the Eudora software and find out if that is normal, and if it isn't, how can it be corrected. But, anyway, I'm sure even with this happening, it still doesn't take you 20 min to delete all the attachments. That in itself is a good enough reason to upgrade to 5.1 from 1.0, don't you think? John - Original Message - From: Brian J White [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 2002-02-07 18:50 Subject: [USMA:18032] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads are in kilometres, speeds in miles per hour However, when I received USMA 17964, there were attachments. It is possible that Brian's software broke the webpage up into the attachments. Brian, if you are reading this, can you tell us what e-mail program you are using? You may need to upgrade too! I considered that, which is why I was apologetic. I use Eudora 5.1 running under Windows 2000 Professional. Don't think I need to upgrade just yet. *wink* But, anyway, whether there are no attachments or 500 000 000 attachments, they don't have to be deleted separately. When I delete the posting, the attachments are all deleted as part of the posting in one swoop. Doesn't your software do this? If it doesn't, it is time to get rid of it. Now, I remember from a few years ago you were using some earlier version of Eudora. Eudora is now available in version 5.1, for both PC and Mac. Try downloading it and installing it and see if it is easier to work with. http://www.eudora.com/products/eudora/updater1.html
[USMA:18041] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads are in kilometres, speeds in miles per hour
Are Yahoo paying you are something, John?? Regards, Steve. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: kilopascal [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 11:52 PM Subject: [USMA:18034] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads are in kilometres, speeds in miles per hour 2002-02-07 That depends Han. If the person is using FFS (Fred Flintstone Software), it may not have the capability. Using 21-st century AD software instead of BC would solve that problem. Also, opening a Yahoo account, would also work. With Yahoo, you don't need to download anything. You view the contents of your mailbox in your browser and can easily delete anything in seconds. Remember, resisting upgrading one's software is like sticking with FFU. It is done because the user perceives he/she is comfortable with the old and familiar. The same logic to hold onto FFS is the same logic used to stick with FFU. Do you see the connection? John - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 2002-02-07 13:29 Subject: [USMA:18014] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads are in kilometres, speeds in miles per hour I did get John's message USMA 17963 with all these attachments. If I delete a message, the attachments go down the drain with it. I also have a program with which I can list all unused and trashy files and delete them with a click of the mouse. It should be possible with an Apple computer. Han
[USMA:18042] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads are in kilometres, speeds in miles per hour
2002-06-07 No, they are not. Some of us use it at work. We don't have a company internet server and use a local DSL service, with limited e-mail accounts. So, only a privileged few get the accounts on their PC's that come with the service. The rest of us can either use the main account set up on administrative server, or set up an account such as Yahoo or Hotmail on their own PC's. Hotmail only has a 1 MB mailbox capacity, which is impractical for sending large drawing files. But, Yahoo has a 6 MB capacity, so all of us have signed up with Yahoo. We were all able to configure Outlook Express to download the mail onto our individual PC's. No one has ever had a problem with getting mail via Yahoo. Even though we chose to set up Outlook to view our mail, Yahoo can also be accessed from the Yahoo Website. Thus, you can save disk space and download time by not actually downloading any of the mail to your personal PC. You can even post messages from the website. It is very user friendly and does not choke on HTML. So, for this reason I would recommend to those with mail software problems to at least try Yahoo. You might find it so wonderful, you'll kick yourself for not trying it sooner. John - Original Message - From: Stephen Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 2002-02-07 20:46 Subject: [USMA:18041] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads are in kilometres, speeds in miles per hour Are Yahoo paying you are something, John?? Regards, Steve. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: kilopascal [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 11:52 PM Subject: [USMA:18034] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads are in kilometres, speeds in miles per hour 2002-02-07 That depends Han. If the person is using FFS (Fred Flintstone Software), it may not have the capability. Using 21-st century AD software instead of BC would solve that problem. Also, opening a Yahoo account, would also work. With Yahoo, you don't need to download anything. You view the contents of your mailbox in your browser and can easily delete anything in seconds. Remember, resisting upgrading one's software is like sticking with FFU. It is done because the user perceives he/she is comfortable with the old and familiar. The same logic to hold onto FFS is the same logic used to stick with FFU. Do you see the connection? John - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 2002-02-07 13:29 Subject: [USMA:18014] Re: St Lucia too! Re: Re: Peurto Rico Roads are in kilometres, speeds in miles per hour I did get John's message USMA 17963 with all these attachments. If I delete a message, the attachments go down the drain with it. I also have a program with which I can list all unused and trashy files and delete them with a click of the mouse. It should be possible with an Apple computer. Han
[USMA:18043] RE: Announcement from USMA
Congrats, Jim! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Hillger, Don Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2002 11.29 To: U.S. Metric Association Subject: [USMA:17986] Announcement from USMA Congratulations to Jim Frysinger from USMA! IEEE President, Raymond D. Findlay, has announced the elevation of James Frysinger to the grade of IEEE Senior Member. Dr. Findlay states Only 7% of our approximately 377,000 IEEE members hold this grade which requires experience reflecting professional maturity and significant professional achievements. Included among his many pursuits is his work on two IEEE standards committees, both related to SI. As a member of IEEE Standards Coordinating Committee 14, Frysinger chairs the SCC14.3 subcommittee which is about to put forth two standards for balloting: P1541, Standard Prefixes for Binary Multiples and P260.1, Standard Letter Symbols for Units of Measurement He also serves as an IEEE nonvoting member on the ASTM/IEEE Committee for Maintaining SI 10, which is about to ballot a revised edition of SI 10. Frysinger is the webmaster for both of these committees. He is also a member of the American Welding Society A1 Committee on Metric Practice and helped to develop the latest edition of the AWS Metric Practice Guide for the Welding Industry, which has just been published.
[USMA:18044] Olympic update / 2002-02-07
To all: I just wanted to address a couple of things in one email. 1. My wife said that Channel 4 this evening gave the snow depth of the expected snow storm (overnight and Friday morning) in cm as well (1 to 3 inches of snow. That's 2.5 to 7.5 cm). In fact, while typing this email, I saw the same thing on the 10 o'clock news. 2. To Gene: When I referred to all other data in non-SI I meant any other weather data used - pressure, wind speed, and even the current temperatures. This evening they completely avoided any SI. 3. This afternoon while at the Olympic Village I saw the official weather bulletins. Those are the ones that have tables and graphs for every hour of the day. Needless to say, that all of them were in SI. Yet, there were also verbal extended forecasts posted, and oh my. The mix of units with no specific consistency reminded me of the current situation with metrication in the U.S. One report would have cm and °C only, another one would have some SI (ifp) and the rest in SI only. There were a few with ifp only. Strange indeed! Well, I am exhausted, so it's time to go to bed now. This has been a truly exciting week so far. And with the Latvia-Austria game on Saturday and Latvia-Slovakia game on Sunday, there is more excitement to come. Cheers, Nikolay
[USMA:18045] Re: Announcement from USMA
At 11:29 -0700 02/02/6, Hillger, Don wrote: Congratulations to Jim Frysinger from USMA! IEEE President, Raymond D. Findlay, has announced the elevation of James Frysinger to the grade of IEEE Senior Member. Dr. Findlay states Only 7% of our approximately 377,000 IEEE members hold this grade which requires experience reflecting professional maturity and significant professional achievements. Included among his many pursuits is his work on two IEEE standards committees, both related to SI. Jim, are you going to stop one day to accumulate prizes and awards ? But you deserve them. Congratulations ! Louis
