Re: [Vo]:the same trend in LENR info. & about its sacred cows

[Axil Axil]

Unless science understands how LENR produces heat inside planets, they will
be faced with mounting numbers of unsolvable cosmological conundrums.

Scientists shocked to find Mercury has liquid metal core and a magnetic
field like Earth
MAY 13, 2015 BY DAN TAYLOR

Scientists shocked to find Mercury has liquid metal core and a magnetic
field like Earth

NASA's MESSENGER spacecraft smashed into the planet's surface on April 30
after four years in orbit, but not before sending back some amazing data.

Scientists were floored recently after getting back data from NASA’s
MESSENGER space probe that showed that Mercury has a core filled with
sloshing liquid metal, much like Earth — and they’re scratching their heads
as to how that’s possible.

Mercury had been thought to be too small to have a liquid core, as
scientists believed the metal would have cooled relatively quickly in its
history, but the MESSENGER space probe sent back data before slamming into
the planet on April 30 that indicated that yes, its core still contains
molten metal, and that metal is creating a magnetic field similar to that
of Earth, according to a Space.com report.

It’s nowhere near as powerful — scientists estimate that it is 100 times
weaker than Earth’s. But the findings still surprised scientists who
thought they would find a solid rock core much like the other rocky planets
in our solar system. The findings shed new light on the evolution of
Mercury, the closest planet to the sun and the smallest planet in the solar
system, and will force scientists to rethink how it developed.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:18 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> It has proven for the first time that the deepest part of the lunar mantle
> is soft, based upon the agreement between observation results and the
> theoretical calculations.
> The research team also clarified that heat is efficiently generated by the
> tides in the soft part, deepest in the mantle.
>
> In general, a part of the energy stored inside a celestial body by tidal
> forces (caused by being pushed and pulled by its partner, in this case
> Earth, as it orbits) is changed to heat.
> The heat generation depends on the softness of the interior.
>
> Whereas previous research also suggests that some part of the energy
> inside the moon due to the tidal forces is changed to heat, the present
> research indicates that this type of energy conversion does not uniformly
> occur in the entire moon, but only intensively in a soft layer.
> The research team believes that the soft layer is now warming the core of
> the moon as the core seems to be wrapped by the layer, which is located in
> the deepest part of the mantle, and which efficiently generates heat.
>
> They also expect that a soft layer like this may efficiently have warmed
> the core in the past as well.
>
>
> Read more:
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2719809/Is-moon-s-core-MOLTEN-Centre-satellite-wrapped-layer-soft-rock-claim-scientists.html#ixzz40SvO0v6m
>
>
> The moon's core could well be heated by cold fusion. The assumptions made
> about the moons molten core sound far fetched. A soft layer would not has
> formed when the moon cooled. All less dense stuff would have risen upward
> during the cooling process.
>
> Without cold fusion science does not make sense.
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 2:05 PM, Peter Gluck 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Good surprises are necessary.
>>
>> http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2016/02/feb-17-2016-lenr-sacred-cow-candidates.html
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Peter
>> --
>> Dr. Peter Gluck
>> Cluj, Romania
>> http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
>>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent Robots

[H LV]

On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 12:26 AM, H LV  wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 2:08 PM, Chris Zell  wrote:
>
>>
>> It’s too bad Startrek isn’t around anymore because it got people to think
>> about these future challenges.
>>
>>
>>
>
> ​
> Star Trek "Money doesn't exist in the 24th Century"
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2wqSDupcxY
>
> Harry
>
>
The great transformation is underway now. It is not going to happen in the
future. It is happening now.
​
​More Star Trek​ clips

Star trek Economy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQQYbKT_rMg

Samuel Clemens in the 24th century
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7mmjxkL5X0

Harry

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent Robots

[H LV]

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 2:08 PM, Chris Zell  wrote:

>
> It’s too bad Startrek isn’t around anymore because it got people to think
> about these future challenges.
>
>
>

​
Star Trek "Money doesn't exist in the 24th Century"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2wqSDupcxY

Harry

Re: [Vo]:Re: Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

[Jed Rothwell]

Axil Axil  wrote:

> This paper describes how the performance of AI machines tends to improve
> at the same pace that AI researchers get access to faster hardware. The
> processing power and memory capacity necessary to match general
> intellectual performance of the human brain are estimated. . . .
>
Ah, I see what comparison this is. This is roughly the number of brain
synapses multiplied by processing speed. Yes, that has been far ahead of
computers for a long time. The raw speed of some computations that do not
require a large memory has been faster in computers since they were
invented, but that is a different metric.

There was a comparison some time ago of computing power versus the human
brain, with an animated graphic showing how long it would take to full Lake
Michigan if you double the amount of water you add each year. See:

"Welcome, Robot Overlords. Please Don't Fire Us?

Smart machines probably won't kill us all—but they'll definitely take our
jobs, and sooner than you think."

http://www.motherjones.com/media/2013/05/robots-artificial-intelligence-jobs-automation

QUOTES:

Suppose it's 1940 and Lake Michigan has (somehow) been emptied. Your job is
to fill it up using the following rule: To start off, you can add one fluid
ounce of water to the lake bed. Eighteen months later, you can add two. In
another 18 months, you can add four ounces. And so on. Obviously this is
going to take a while.

By 1950, you have added around a gallon of water. But you keep soldiering
on. By 1960, you have a bit more than 150 gallons. By 1970, you have 16,000
gallons, about as much as an average suburban swimming pool. . . .

IF YOU HAVE ANY KIND OF BACKGROUND in computers, you've already figured out
that I didn't pick these numbers out of a hat. I started in 1940 because
that's about when the first programmable computer was invented. I chose a
doubling time of 18 months because of a cornerstone of computer history
called Moore's Law, which famously estimates that computing power doubles
approximately every 18 months. And I chose Lake Michigan because its size,
in fluid ounces, is roughly the same as the computing power of the human
brain measured in calculations per second. . . .


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Re: Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

[Axil Axil]

more...

http://www.kurzweilai.net/the-web-within-us-minds-and-machines-become-one

There are many new technologies waiting in the wings that will allow this
to happen. Nanotube circuits, for example, are capable of forming extremely
dense three-dimensional arrays of computing elements. A 1 inch cube of
nanotube circuitry would be at least a million times more powerful than the
human brain. Other experimental technologies include three-dimensional
chips, optical computing, crystalline computing, DNA, and quantum
computing. *By 2019, a $1,000 computer will match the processing power of
the human brain–about 20 million billion calculations per second. By 2029,
your average PC will be equivalent to 1,000 human brains.*

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 9:13 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> http://www.jetpress.org/volume1/moravec.htm
>
> *ABSTRACT*
>
> This paper describes how the performance of AI machines tends to improve
> at the same pace that AI researchers get access to faster hardware. The
> processing power and memory capacity necessary to match general
> intellectual performance of the human brain are estimated. Based on
> extrapolation of past trends and on examination of technologies under
> development, it is predicted that the required hardware will be available
> in cheap machines in the 2020s.
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_made_by_Ray_Kurzweil
>
>
>
> *Between 1981 and 2002, the processing power, hard disk space and RAM in a
> typical desktop computer increased dramatically because of Moore's Law.
> Extrapolating out to the years 2021 and 2041 shows a startling increase in
> computer power. The point where small, inexpensive computers have power
> approaching that of the human brain is just a few decades away.*
>
>
> http://marshallbrain.com/robotic-nation.htm
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 8:22 PM, Jed Rothwell 
> wrote:
>
>> Axil Axil  wrote:
>>
>> By 2030, the PC will be 1000 times faster then the human brain.
>>>
>>
>> In what sense? Computers have always been much faster than the human
>> brain for some operations. The first computer, ENIAC, was much faster than
>> the humans it replaced.
>>
>> Computers are now becoming faster at pattern recognition, which is
>> remarkable. A few years ago they were still much slower. The human brain
>> does that sort of thing with parallel processing, comparing an image to all
>> images in the brain simultaneously. In the 1980s, this was done on
>> computers with associative memory. Nowadays I assume it is done with
>> parallel processing.
>>
>>
>>
>>> A PC chip will be planted in the brain that will provide health
>>> monitoring, internet communications, added memory storage and computational
>>> power.
>>>
>>
>> I very much doubt that anyone will learn how to routinely and safely
>> implant a PC chip anytime soon! There are experiments with implanted
>> devices in paraplegic patients. They are promising but dangerous. The
>> equipment is barely capable of sorting out signals, and it can only do a
>> few signals, such as "raise arm."
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Re: Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

[Axil Axil]

http://www.jetpress.org/volume1/moravec.htm

*ABSTRACT*

This paper describes how the performance of AI machines tends to improve at
the same pace that AI researchers get access to faster hardware. The
processing power and memory capacity necessary to match general
intellectual performance of the human brain are estimated. Based on
extrapolation of past trends and on examination of technologies under
development, it is predicted that the required hardware will be available
in cheap machines in the 2020s.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_made_by_Ray_Kurzweil



*Between 1981 and 2002, the processing power, hard disk space and RAM in a
typical desktop computer increased dramatically because of Moore's Law.
Extrapolating out to the years 2021 and 2041 shows a startling increase in
computer power. The point where small, inexpensive computers have power
approaching that of the human brain is just a few decades away.*


http://marshallbrain.com/robotic-nation.htm

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 8:22 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Axil Axil  wrote:
>
> By 2030, the PC will be 1000 times faster then the human brain.
>>
>
> In what sense? Computers have always been much faster than the human brain
> for some operations. The first computer, ENIAC, was much faster than the
> humans it replaced.
>
> Computers are now becoming faster at pattern recognition, which is
> remarkable. A few years ago they were still much slower. The human brain
> does that sort of thing with parallel processing, comparing an image to all
> images in the brain simultaneously. In the 1980s, this was done on
> computers with associative memory. Nowadays I assume it is done with
> parallel processing.
>
>
>
>> A PC chip will be planted in the brain that will provide health
>> monitoring, internet communications, added memory storage and computational
>> power.
>>
>
> I very much doubt that anyone will learn how to routinely and safely
> implant a PC chip anytime soon! There are experiments with implanted
> devices in paraplegic patients. They are promising but dangerous. The
> equipment is barely capable of sorting out signals, and it can only do a
> few signals, such as "raise arm."
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Re: Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

[Jed Rothwell]

Axil Axil  wrote:

By 2030, the PC will be 1000 times faster then the human brain.
>

In what sense? Computers have always been much faster than the human brain
for some operations. The first computer, ENIAC, was much faster than the
humans it replaced.

Computers are now becoming faster at pattern recognition, which is
remarkable. A few years ago they were still much slower. The human brain
does that sort of thing with parallel processing, comparing an image to all
images in the brain simultaneously. In the 1980s, this was done on
computers with associative memory. Nowadays I assume it is done with
parallel processing.



> A PC chip will be planted in the brain that will provide health
> monitoring, internet communications, added memory storage and computational
> power.
>

I very much doubt that anyone will learn how to routinely and safely
implant a PC chip anytime soon! There are experiments with implanted
devices in paraplegic patients. They are promising but dangerous. The
equipment is barely capable of sorting out signals, and it can only do a
few signals, such as "raise arm."

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Re: Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

[Axil Axil]

By 2030, the PC will be 1000 times faster then the human brain. A PC chip
will be planted in the brain that will provide health monitoring, internet
communications, added memory storage and computational power. It may be
possible to see out of other people's or robot's eyes and hear what other
people's or robot's hear. What sort of apps can be impliment using a direct
brain/chip interface? Get  jump on the app market, time is growing short.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 4:28 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> Here is another one
>
> http://internetmedicine.com/dermatology-apps/
>
> there are a lot of them.
>
> There will be a time when your personal computing device will monitor your
> body 24/7/365 and report any developing medical problems.
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 4:19 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:
>
>> This may be the app
>>
>> http://www.lubax.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:
>>
>>> I heard that there is an iphone app using photo comparison logic that
>>> uses a database of skin cancer photos that generates  a 20% better record
>>> for correct skin cancer diag than can be produced by diag from a skin
>>> doctor.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Jed Rothwell 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Bob Cook  wrote:

 Why does such a data base not already exist?—maybe radiologists are
> afraid of being left out of the picture.
>

 This database does exist. It is being constructed now. It will be a
 while before it can be used clinically.

 - Jed


>>>
>>
>

[Vo]:LGE Antigravity Drone-with Camera-Non-Balloon!

[Ron Kita]

Greetings Vortex,

Not sure  of the accuracy of the LGE Antigravity Drone.
BUT specs IF true...3 pounds and 10 inches in diameternot a balloon:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/antigravity-drone-lge-first-in-the-world#/

Ron Kita, Chiralex

Re: [Vo]:the same trend in LENR info. & about its sacred cows

[Axil Axil]

It has proven for the first time that the deepest part of the lunar mantle
is soft, based upon the agreement between observation results and the
theoretical calculations.
The research team also clarified that heat is efficiently generated by the
tides in the soft part, deepest in the mantle.

In general, a part of the energy stored inside a celestial body by tidal
forces (caused by being pushed and pulled by its partner, in this case
Earth, as it orbits) is changed to heat.
The heat generation depends on the softness of the interior.

Whereas previous research also suggests that some part of the energy inside
the moon due to the tidal forces is changed to heat, the present research
indicates that this type of energy conversion does not uniformly occur in
the entire moon, but only intensively in a soft layer.
The research team believes that the soft layer is now warming the core of
the moon as the core seems to be wrapped by the layer, which is located in
the deepest part of the mantle, and which efficiently generates heat.

They also expect that a soft layer like this may efficiently have warmed
the core in the past as well.


Read more:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2719809/Is-moon-s-core-MOLTEN-Centre-satellite-wrapped-layer-soft-rock-claim-scientists.html#ixzz40SvO0v6m


The moon's core could well be heated by cold fusion. The assumptions made
about the moons molten core sound far fetched. A soft layer would not has
formed when the moon cooled. All less dense stuff would have risen upward
during the cooling process.

Without cold fusion science does not make sense.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 2:05 PM, Peter Gluck  wrote:

>
> Good surprises are necessary.
>
> http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2016/02/feb-17-2016-lenr-sacred-cow-candidates.html
>
> Best wishes,
> Peter
> --
> Dr. Peter Gluck
> Cluj, Romania
> http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
>

Re: [Vo]:Re: Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

[Axil Axil]

Here is another one

http://internetmedicine.com/dermatology-apps/

there are a lot of them.

There will be a time when your personal computing device will monitor your
body 24/7/365 and report any developing medical problems.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 4:19 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> This may be the app
>
> http://www.lubax.com/
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:
>
>> I heard that there is an iphone app using photo comparison logic that
>> uses a database of skin cancer photos that generates  a 20% better record
>> for correct skin cancer diag than can be produced by diag from a skin
>> doctor.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Jed Rothwell 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Bob Cook  wrote:
>>>
>>> Why does such a data base not already exist?—maybe radiologists are
 afraid of being left out of the picture.

>>>
>>> This database does exist. It is being constructed now. It will be a
>>> while before it can be used clinically.
>>>
>>> - Jed
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Re: Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

[Axil Axil]

This may be the app

http://www.lubax.com/



On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> I heard that there is an iphone app using photo comparison logic that uses
> a database of skin cancer photos that generates  a 20% better record for
> correct skin cancer diag than can be produced by diag from a skin doctor.
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Jed Rothwell 
> wrote:
>
>> Bob Cook  wrote:
>>
>> Why does such a data base not already exist?—maybe radiologists are
>>> afraid of being left out of the picture.
>>>
>>
>> This database does exist. It is being constructed now. It will be a while
>> before it can be used clinically.
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Re: Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

[Axil Axil]

I heard that there is an iphone app using photo comparison logic that uses
a database of skin cancer photos that generates  a 20% better record for
correct skin cancer diag than can be produced by diag from a skin doctor.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Bob Cook  wrote:
>
> Why does such a data base not already exist?—maybe radiologists are afraid
>> of being left out of the picture.
>>
>
> This database does exist. It is being constructed now. It will be a while
> before it can be used clinically.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Re: Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

[Jed Rothwell]

Bob Cook  wrote:

Why does such a data base not already exist?—maybe radiologists are afraid
> of being left out of the picture.
>

This database does exist. It is being constructed now. It will be a while
before it can be used clinically.

- Jed

Fwd: [Vo]:Intelligent robots make millions of jobs

[Frank Znidarsic]

Subject: Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots make millions of jobs




Technology is a double edge sword.  It gives and it takes away.  For the more 
savvy it can give employment.
A few years ago, I could never publish books or sell software.   Now with a 
click of a button my products are available world wide.  They are available 
from Japan, across Europe, to US.  I could not have dreamed of this a few years 
ago.  My latest product Monitoring has just been released.  It was made for the 
builder and inventors.  
The second release is out now.  It has improved images and help text.  Nicer 
orb.




http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-text=%22znidarsic+science+books%22=n%3A133140011%2Ck%3A%22znidarsic+science+books%22


In case you are wondering where the orb came form it is here:


http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/backups/monitoring/binockulars.jpg




Frank Znidarsic

  

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

[a.ashfield]

Jed,”.. In the past, education helped because automation and robots 
usually replaced unskilled labor.”


I agree it helped in the past, but currently a degree is mainly used by 
personnel departments as a measure of your conformity and is little more 
that what a high school diploma used to be.Technically illiterate, they 
are incapable of interviewing people to detect if they have real talent.


You left out the important proviso, if there ARE jobs to fill.I’m not 
sure that replacing unskilled labor will be the front runner for 
long.That requires investing in expensive hardware.Highly paid 
professionals are a much juicier target and software spread over many 
thousands is relatively cheap.Already a lot of what you read in the 
media is written by AI.Many labor intensive parts of legal work has 
started to be done by AI.Someone mentioned auto scanning of X-Ray 
images.A TED talk by a lady doctor demonstrated how much better the 
results were for diagnosing breast cancer.Etc Etc.


Although I know it to be true I have trouble accepting just how fast 
this change is and will occur.Kurzweil opened my eyes to what the future 
holds for nano machines and how things will change when they become self 
replicating.He talks about nanobots in the blood that can fix problems 
in your brain and attack cancer for example.The only thing I’m sure of 
is how difficult it is to forecast just what will happen and that our 
politicians won’t be ahead of the curve.


I haven't thought much about the working week.  Perhaps there is some 
compromise for two people sharing a job providing they are paid enough.  
The latter is the basic problem that remains unaddressed..

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

[Alain Sepeda]

2016-02-17 16:35 GMT+01:00 Jed Rothwell :

> In the past, education helped because automation and robots usually
> replaced unskilled labor. I think for the next few decades they will
> continue to replace unskilled labor more quickly than skilled or
> intellectual labor. For example, self driving cars will replace taxi
> drivers.


Very interesting notice.

with intelligent bots and AI replacing office workers what you don't need
is not more educated people, because bots can be educated too .

what we need is what I see glorified those days : entrepreneur spirit,
pioneer spirit, disruptive ideas

you cannot be smarter than a computer their way, but you can exploit them
to work for you.

future of "activity" maybe "invention of problems", assembling services,
assembling or identifying demands and needs, ...

note that if bots replace really all work, then why have money, since money
is to buy work ?
if machine can be build without money, why give a price to machine capital ?
If design can be done by machine, why would it be expensive ?

I don't beleive things will be free, but just cheaper like it happen for
food, computers, energy, ...

if really all we know today is automatised, even surgery, psychologist,
except maybe few planet-scale experts in AI then :

- what would the genious experts ask to the society tha bots will not
propose ... name that NEW SERVICE, "NS".
- then NS will be proposed by non robots who are not "experts"... they will
thus be paid by experts who will be paid for their work, that they will
obtaine from a tax on all goods. thus goods will have  price.
- people gaining money for NS, will use part of their money to pay for NS,
and for goods... but most will be for NS.
- ther will be more people offering NS to people fworking for NS
- people not working for NS will need money , not muc, to provide NS if not
toexperts but to first or second level of NS providers...

OK I stop what I describe is just an economy...

NS will be all human service that people value and that robots cannot
provide.

it is human interaction, if bots do all else.
it may also be manual made goods, considered as luxury.
it may be cultural goods, ethnic tradiction goods, and services (shox, art)
it may be talking, sex, care, advices, even if bots can give you all of
that for cheaper...
don't forget that people  were using most of their time and money just for
food... now many have gadgets, and many use tourism of leisure services.

[Vo]:Intelligent Robots

[Chris Zell]

It seems to me that, as a practical matter,  some sort of socialism or 
communism must emerge by default.  If human society is no longer directed by 
the dictates of a supposed personal Creator, then another
basis for common morality must be found.  I think that would be service to the 
many, humanity as a whole.  In addition, a reverence for life for those 
mystically inclined.

The ethical vacuum left by organized religion's decline will be filled somehow. 
 This could even be precipitous if extraterrestrial life is discovered.  The 
drift towards nihilism will not sustain our civilization for very long.

It's too bad Startrek isn't around anymore because it got people to think about 
these future challenges.

[Vo]:the same trend in LENR info. & about its sacred cows

[Peter Gluck]

Good surprises are necessary.
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2016/02/feb-17-2016-lenr-sacred-cow-candidates.html

Best wishes,
Peter
-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

[Lennart Thornros]

Hello Ludwik,
No, communism was old already when introduced in Russia (even older in
Poland). However, if we stay with that side of the communism that deals
with distribution of basic needs it has it points. The problem is that it
decides that one group has too little and that that has to be justified
with all and any means. This is a different situation today and the
argument has very little traction.
I believe that one need to have a way to distribute basic needs not only
within a country but globally. Otherwise there is no way of dealing with
the future robot society. You  cannot have people in a third world country
working 70 / 80  hours per week and just get the basics if people three
hours away can work 8 hours a week for the same reward. As the world has
better communications the differences will decrease. I do not think that
such borders will survive.
I think Eric is righ;t robots will only be able/allowed to handle so much.
There will be a need for change of attitudes and valued will be based
differently. I know that people (in general), of working class 125 to 150
years ago had no ambitions to develop their personality or travel for
educational reasons. They had their day cut out trying to survive. During
this period since then we have already made great progress to offer
everyone the basic needs in the west. This development is under way at a
much higher speed in all other countries today. I predict one can live with
similar security and promise of basic needs almost anywhere in the world
within 25 years. It is possible that the direct connection between
producing and reward will to some extent survive this period. However, if
the requirement for being productive is very low, like 8 hours per week,
then this direct relation will have to change. I hope to the better.
Once again I agree with Eric that there is a big risk that the transition
will be difficult. LENR would certainly help that transition. Disturbing to
me is that even here in the west, we cannot focus on adopting the new
technologies. We are still worried over that jobs are moving to China and
India. That is instead of building new infrastructure that utilize the new
possibilities. We still think that GM and similar giant organizations will
be in the lead. We even save them when they fail because they have outlived
there usefulness. We are afraid of the change!
China and India will not stay long as the low cost labor resource. Robots
and even less fortunate areas in the world will become the future cheap
labor resource. Don't you think a Chinese will ask for the same privileges
as a US or a German citizen? Of course they will.
I could add something about, smaller and more flexible organizations all
over the field, but  . . . :)

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros


lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899

Whatever you vividly imagine, ardently desire, sincerely believe and
enthusiastically act upon, must inevitably come to pass. (PJM)


On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Eric Walker  wrote:

> About education -- in a future in which the economic difficulties being
> discussed are worked out to some extent, there will be a lot of free time.
> Furthering one's education seems like a good way to spend some of this
> time.  I suspect that education will change significantly in the next 200
> years, which is not to suggest that it will be unrecognizable. But if there
> is less pressure to get a job in order to survive and prosper, there may be
> less pressure to obtain a bachelor's degree, in contrast to getting
> specific certifications, which could potentially undercut the current
> tuition inflation.
>
> About the replacement of jobs by robots -- this is obviously happening and
> will increasingly happen.  But I think the argument only goes so far.  Not
> all creative jobs carried out by people will be replaced by robotic labor
> (I don't think anyone is arguing the extreme version of this).  I doubt
> there will ever be a time when robotic art, or music, or essays, political
> analyses or high-end mandolins will ever rival the best work of humans.
> This is not to say that many jobs that are currently somewhat creative will
> not be replaced.
>
> To elaborate, consider that for the last 50-60 years people have been
> infatuated with fast food, which has a consistent taste and presentation
> wherever you buy it.  There has been a similar uniformity in homes,
> suburban neighborhoods, furniture and fruit and vegetables.  But in recent
> years there has been a general reassessment of these kinds of preferences,
> and people have become more willing to pay more for the hand-made and
> idiosyncratic stuff.  I see this trend increasing over time.  In addition,
> there are areas that people may naturally gravitate towards, such as
> gardening, which, although the work could be capably carried out by a
> sufficiently intelligent set of robots, people might want to do
> themselves.  The main point, then, is that in an economy in 

[Vo]:Re: Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

[Bob Cook]

Why does such a data base not already exist?—maybe radiologists are afraid of 
being left out of the picture.

Bob Cook

From: Axil Axil 
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 9:13 AM
To: vortex-l 
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

One advancement is global data "accumulation and application". A demetoligent 
or radiologist automaton will accumulate a global data base which contains all 
the images of shin cancer or the  x-rays associated with a given condition from 
all over the world over many decades. an AI will use that data (billions of 
cases) to make a diagnosis. The diagnosis will be far more accurate based on 
this data base than any experience that a human can provide by many orders of 
magnitude.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 11:09 AM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

  Ludwik Kowalski  wrote:

We believed that in the next economic system, Communism,  people will be 
receiving goods "according to their needs, not according to their work.


  In the distant future, hundreds of years from now, it is certain that things 
will work out this way, because there will be no need for any human labor, and 
because the technology for things like robots will be in the public domain and 
available to everyone at no cost. I mean that patents will have expired, and 
the technology will be so cheap with automatic replication machines that there 
will be no way to charge anyone for it. Cold fusion may be the first technology 
to reduce a major world-scale expense to zero, but others will surely follow.

  People will eventually have all the food they want for free, or nearly for 
free, from small automated farms. See:

  http://www.freightfarms.com/


  http://www.freightfarms.com/features/


  These may even be built into houses. You see them in some Japanese 
restaurants already. When you order a salad, the waitress cut the lettuce from 
a glass automated greenhouse next to you.

  Two hundred years from now, trying to charge the customer for the use of cold 
fusion or for a new robot would be like trying to charge a person nowadays for 
gathering sticks and making a bonfire, or trying to charge a person for 
gathering rocks on his own property and making a stone wall in Pennsylvania. 
Fire and simple stone construction techniques are millions of years old. No one 
controls them.

  In Pennsylvania, a skilled person can charge a lot of money to gather rocks 
and build a stone retaining wall in a barn. This takes a great deal of skill, 
special tools, mortar and so on. The rocks may come from the property owner's 
own land a few meters away, but you can still charge for the labor. However, in 
the distant future, a large robot will download the skills needed to do this, 
and it will do the job for free. There may still be some incidental expenses 
for mortar, specialized tools, a building permit and so on.

  - Jed

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

[Eric Walker]

About education -- in a future in which the economic difficulties being
discussed are worked out to some extent, there will be a lot of free time.
Furthering one's education seems like a good way to spend some of this
time.  I suspect that education will change significantly in the next 200
years, which is not to suggest that it will be unrecognizable. But if there
is less pressure to get a job in order to survive and prosper, there may be
less pressure to obtain a bachelor's degree, in contrast to getting
specific certifications, which could potentially undercut the current
tuition inflation.

About the replacement of jobs by robots -- this is obviously happening and
will increasingly happen.  But I think the argument only goes so far.  Not
all creative jobs carried out by people will be replaced by robotic labor
(I don't think anyone is arguing the extreme version of this).  I doubt
there will ever be a time when robotic art, or music, or essays, political
analyses or high-end mandolins will ever rival the best work of humans.
This is not to say that many jobs that are currently somewhat creative will
not be replaced.

To elaborate, consider that for the last 50-60 years people have been
infatuated with fast food, which has a consistent taste and presentation
wherever you buy it.  There has been a similar uniformity in homes,
suburban neighborhoods, furniture and fruit and vegetables.  But in recent
years there has been a general reassessment of these kinds of preferences,
and people have become more willing to pay more for the hand-made and
idiosyncratic stuff.  I see this trend increasing over time.  In addition,
there are areas that people may naturally gravitate towards, such as
gardening, which, although the work could be capably carried out by a
sufficiently intelligent set of robots, people might want to do
themselves.  The main point, then, is that in an economy in which scarcity
is not a motivating factor, people will not be forced to do undignified
work.

All of that is very bright and rosy. I am pessimistic that the transition
to such a future will be a smooth and pleasant one.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

[Axil Axil]

One advancement is global data "accumulation and application". A
demetoligent or radiologist automaton will accumulate a global data base
which contains all the images of shin cancer or the  x-rays associated with
a given condition from all over the world over many decades. an AI will use
that data (billions of cases) to make a diagnosis. The diagnosis will be
far more accurate based on this data base than any experience that a human
can provide by many orders of magnitude.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 11:09 AM, Jed Rothwell 
wrote:

> Ludwik Kowalski  wrote:
>
>
>> We believed that in the next economic system, Communism,  people will be
>> receiving goods "according to their needs, not according to their work.
>>
>
> In the distant future, hundreds of years from now, it is certain that
> things will work out this way, because there will be no need for any human
> labor, and because the technology for things like robots will be in the
> public domain and available to everyone at no cost. I mean that patents
> will have expired, and the technology will be so cheap with automatic
> replication machines that there will be no way to charge anyone for it.
> Cold fusion may be the first technology to reduce a major world-scale
> expense to zero, but others will surely follow.
>
> People will eventually have all the food they want for free, or nearly for
> free, from small automated farms. See:
>
> http://www.freightfarms.com/
>
> http://www.freightfarms.com/features/
>
> These may even be built into houses. You see them in some Japanese
> restaurants already. When you order a salad, the waitress cut the lettuce
> from a glass automated greenhouse next to you.
>
> Two hundred years from now, trying to charge the customer for the use of
> cold fusion or for a new robot would be like trying to charge a person
> nowadays for gathering sticks and making a bonfire, or trying to charge a
> person for gathering rocks on his own property and making a stone wall in
> Pennsylvania. Fire and simple stone construction techniques are millions of
> years old. No one controls them.
>
> In Pennsylvania, a skilled person can charge a lot of money to gather
> rocks and build a stone retaining wall in a barn. This takes a great deal
> of skill, special tools, mortar and so on. The rocks may come from the
> property owner's own land a few meters away, but you can still charge for
> the labor. However, in the distant future, a large robot will download the
> skills needed to do this, and it will do the job for free. There may still
> be some incidental expenses for mortar, specialized tools, a building
> permit and so on.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots make millions of jobs

[Frank Znidarsic]

Technology is a double edge sward.  It gives and it takes away.  For the more 
savvy it can give employment.
A few years ago, I could never publish books or sell software.   Now with a 
click of a button my products are available world wide.  They are available 
from Japan, across Europe, to US.  I could not have dreamed of this a few years 
ago.  My latest product Monitoring has just been released.  It was made for the 
builder and inventors.  
I am issuing  a second release now.  It will have improved images and help text.




http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-text=%22znidarsic+science+books%22=n%3A133140011%2Ck%3A%22znidarsic+science+books%22


In case you are wondering where the orb came form it is here:


http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/backups/monitoring/binockulars.jpg




Frank Znidarsic

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

[Jed Rothwell]

Ludwik Kowalski  wrote:


> We believed that in the next economic system, Communism,  people will be
> receiving goods "according to their needs, not according to their work.
>

In the distant future, hundreds of years from now, it is certain that
things will work out this way, because there will be no need for any human
labor, and because the technology for things like robots will be in the
public domain and available to everyone at no cost. I mean that patents
will have expired, and the technology will be so cheap with automatic
replication machines that there will be no way to charge anyone for it.
Cold fusion may be the first technology to reduce a major world-scale
expense to zero, but others will surely follow.

People will eventually have all the food they want for free, or nearly for
free, from small automated farms. See:

http://www.freightfarms.com/

http://www.freightfarms.com/features/

These may even be built into houses. You see them in some Japanese
restaurants already. When you order a salad, the waitress cut the lettuce
from a glass automated greenhouse next to you.

Two hundred years from now, trying to charge the customer for the use of
cold fusion or for a new robot would be like trying to charge a person
nowadays for gathering sticks and making a bonfire, or trying to charge a
person for gathering rocks on his own property and making a stone wall in
Pennsylvania. Fire and simple stone construction techniques are millions of
years old. No one controls them.

In Pennsylvania, a skilled person can charge a lot of money to gather rocks
and build a stone retaining wall in a barn. This takes a great deal of
skill, special tools, mortar and so on. The rocks may come from the
property owner's own land a few meters away, but you can still charge for
the labor. However, in the distant future, a large robot will download the
skills needed to do this, and it will do the job for free. There may still
be some incidental expenses for mortar, specialized tools, a building
permit and so on.

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:How to test an ADGEX ELFE Flashlight.

[Jones Beene]

From: Esa Ruoho 

 

Ø  Hmm Jones, sounds interesting. How would you use an audio monitor to look 
for correlations with the lumen output?

 

The Russians are claiming the power source is Schumann resonance, which is 
extremely low frequency (ELF) waves, mostly inaudible to humans, which can be 
EMF or vibrational. You can download a simple low frequency spectrum analyzer 
software to use with a bass microphone and your computer. Data-logging is 
another skill set which you may not want to take on. However, as a musician, 
this may be of special interest in one sense.

 

Maybe you have already incorporated Schumann resonance into you music? 
Supposedly whales use it as a carrier wave on which their own call is based on 
octaves of the Schumann.

 

Schumann resonance can be generated by lightning discharges in the cavity 
formed between the Earth's surface and the ionosphere and appears at 7.83 Hz 
(fundamental), 14.3, 20.8, 27.3 and 33.8 Hz. The Russian video claims an 
“antenna” is built into the flashlight – so maybe their secret is to have 
developed a super antenna for amplifying resonance based on a 7.83 Hz 
fundamental. This is an extremely long wavelength so skepticism is fully 
warranted.

 

I hope there is something there but you will need to correlate the resonance 
with the light output – somehow – to prove this.

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

[Jed Rothwell]

a.ashfield  wrote:

Please explain why more education will help when there aren't enough jobs.
> The estimates I see suggest there will only be one new job for every five
> that are lost.
>

In the past, education helped because automation and robots usually
replaced unskilled labor. I think for the next few decades they will
continue to replace unskilled labor more quickly than skilled or
intellectual labor. For example, self driving cars will replace taxi
drivers.

I do not think more education is an adequate response to the problem, but
it may help.

Up until the 1930s, in the U.S. we responded to automation by reducing the
work week from around 60 hours to 40 hours. The 2 day weekend became
common. It might help to reduce the work week to 4 days (32 hours), with a
3-day weekend, leaving salaries more or less where they are now. This would
spread around the remaining labor. Beyond that, there would be no point to
a 3-day work week. For most jobs, in order to stay proficient and stay on
top of events you have to go at least 4 days a week. In a job such as
programming, or piloting airplanes, you lose proficiency remarkably
quickly. (So the pilots tell me.) Even a 3-day weekend might have an
impact.

Nowadays many working poor people hold 2 or 3 jobs, working more than 40
hours a week, because they are not paid a living wage. This increases
unemployment.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

[a.ashfield]

Please explain why more education will help when there aren't enough 
jobs.  The estimates I see suggest there will only be one new job for 
every five that are lost.
Yes, I agree and wrote about how robotics is moving up the ladder 
challenging more skilled jobs.  For example a fully automated hospital 
pharmacy in CA fills 10,000 prescriptions a day without the need of a 
pharmacist.
Until the educational system is reformed, it is very poor value for 
money and will likely just saddle the recipients with debt.

Re: [Vo]:How to test an ADGEX ELFE Flashlight.

[Esa Ruoho]

Hmm Jones, sounds interesting. How would you use an audio monitor to look
for correlations with the lumen output?
I'm afraid I don't have RF meter, Oscilloscope or Radiation Monitor or Lux
/ Lumen Meter.


On 16 February 2016 at 20:45, Jones Beene  wrote:

> *From:* Esa Ruoho
>
>
>
> Ø  Ok, so, anyone have any ideas on how to test this "emits light using
> free energy" flashlight designed by ADGEX ELFE?
>
> Yes. There are many relevant tests which can and should happen without
> opening the device. Some sound superficial but they provide data points of
> interest as a whole. Do not over-stress it initially and give it benefit of
> doubt. There will always be time to do destructive testing later. Much
> later.
>
>
>
> I will list the testing that come to mind which do not require opening the
> device. A lumen meter is essential.
>
>
>
> 1)  With a lumen meter, obtain light emission data over short on-off
> time cycles in lumens, using recommended cycles (do not deplete the device
> at the start and let it recharge overnight)
>
> 2)  Compare the rate of lumen drop-off, minute by minute and day by
> day for several weeks. Data log everything
>
> 3)  Attach thermocouples and compare the case temperature vs lumen
> output. This can be done at the same time as above.
>
> 4)  Use an RF meter, oscilloscope, audio monitor and radiation
> monitor to look for correlations with lumen output.
>
> 5)  If anomalies turn up, try to correlate to astrological of local
> events such as sunspots or earthquakes
>
> 6)  Test the light output near wireless routers and other sources of
> wave energy
>
> 7)  Let the device recharge overnight near various sources of wave
> energy to look for changes in light output the following day - based on
> proximity to power sources during recharge
>
> 8)  Do all of these tests in a city vs in a rural area and compare
> results
>
>
>
> This should require a couple of months to do correctly – after which or
> sooner, you may decide there is no anomaly at all – but if there is, you
> will probably know the parameters which affect it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



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