Re: [Vo]:ICCF17 on Skype -- maybe
How do I watch? I have sent sunwonpark a contact request on Skype. Does he have to answer it before I can watch the video? What exactly do I need to do? From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 12:33 AM Subject: [Vo]:ICCF17 on Skype -- maybe I gather some people are watching this conference on Skype. Someone at the info desk told me the Skype address with the continuous feed is: sunwonpark That's the Conference Chair. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
Rossi is NOT a criminal. He is an absolute hero for developing the world's first practical cold fusion technology. This technology is developing much faster than if he had went through official channels such as the cult-like peer review system. If he had wasted his time writing hundreds of papers, submitting them for peer review, arguing with reviewers, attending each and every conference, preparing countless power point presentations, and so fourth he would not have developed the hot cat. He would still be working on his low temperature systems. Instead, he focused on developing the technology rapidly so it could become as useful as possible. Anyone who says he is a criminal is, at best, making a huge mistake. They are clueless about how the mainstream suppresses radical technologies. Heck, we even have one member on this list who thinks that the government should seize all of Rossi's technology, and lock it away in a secret research program for five years. From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 6:25 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor It is hard to beleive. Cheers: Axil On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Kelley Trezise ktrez2...@ssvecnet.com wrote: Talk about hyperkinetic hyperbolie!! Rossi is a world class criminal! I suppose all those who have ever associated with him even in witnessing his tests (criminal activities) should be put on trial with him. I must admit to drifting in the direction of the increasingly less convinced mass. I will give him to the end of the year to present something substantial but I will never find myself in the class of those who resort to such over the top pronouncments. Jouni Valkonen And if he has, then it would make Rossi the greatest criminal in the history of Earth because he has delayed the technology so long that it has already caused the death of hundreds of millions people due to not enabling this to enter the market properly.
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
What he did was do more than open the floodgates. He has developed a kilowatt class system while almost everyone else could only produce tens of watts. Now, he has a system that can also produce 1,000C degree temperatures that can allow for efficient conversion to electricity. His technology did not open the flood gates, it is the flood! From: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 6:48 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor Kelley/Jouni: You guys are missing the big picture… what Rossi does now is immaterial. What he *did* is open the floodgates, and because of that, there are now enough high-level people aware of what the ENTIRE LENR/CF COMMUNITY has accomplished – namely, irrefutable proof that the excess heat is REAL, repeatability, evidence of energetic particles – i.e., some new physics that can likely be exploited for cheap clean energy. That’s what’s important; that’s the BIG picture. Large companies are also aware, and investment $ is beginning to flow… who the heck cares what Rossi does or does not do from here on? -Mark From:Kelley Trezise [mailto:ktrez2...@ssvecnet.com] Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:13 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor Talk about hyperkinetic hyperbolie!! Rossi is a world class criminal! I suppose all those who have ever associated with him even in witnessing his tests (criminal activities) should be put on trial with him. I must admit to drifting in the direction of the increasingly less convinced mass. I will give him to the end of the year to present something substantial but I will never find myself in the class of those who resort to such over the top pronouncments. Jouni Valkonen And if he has, then it would make Rossi the greatest criminal in the history of Earth because he has delayed the technology so long that it has already caused the death of hundreds of millions people due to not enabling this to enter the market properly.
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
Rossi should not be put on trial for anything. The establishment that has suppressed cold fusion for the past twenty or so years should be put on trial! The way he ignored the peer review system is what allowed this technology to be rapidly developed. If he had played the game of the official scientific community (going to conferences, arguing with peer reviewers, spending all of his time writing letters to journals, and spending months to review the data from a single test) the hot cat would not even exist. By saying F-U to the cult like aspects of mainstream science, he has developed his technology in record time. From: Kelley Trezise ktrez2...@ssvecnet.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor Talk about hyperkinetic hyperbolie!! Rossi is a world class criminal! I suppose all those who have ever associated with him even in witnessing his tests (criminal activities) should be put on trial with him. I must admit to drifting in the direction of the increasingly less convinced mass. I will give him to the end of the year to present something substantial but I will never find myself in the class of those who resort to such over the top pronouncments. Jouni Valkonen And if he has, then it would make Rossi the greatest criminal in the history of Earth because he has delayed the technology so long that it has already caused the death of hundreds of millions people due to not enabling this to enter the market properly.
Re: [Vo]:ILENRS-12 at WM
The cigarette box sized reactor core is the one used in the home ECAT that produces 10 kW at around 80C. This is my understanding from what Rossi has stated. The new high temperature E-Cat reactor core is said to be even smaller, but has more shielding. From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2012 11:29 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:ILENRS-12 at WM Jed said: He also got himself into enormous trouble several times. He takes great risks, sometimes for no reason it seems to me. Such as when he made the 1 MW reactor. I cannot understand him! He is the most baffling person I have ever encountered. Axil said: So soon you forget. His first customer absolutely required the 1 MW power factor. As I posted in the past, a 1 MW thermal reactor is the ideal reactor size for a drone with a 100 HP electric engine operating with a thermal to electric conversion ratio of 15%. Now that the Rossi core operates at 600C, the thermodynamic efficiency is up to 45%. And these playing card pack size 10 KW cores, numbered at about 100 cores, this new drone LENR power supply can be packaged in a volume that is less than that occupied by a current drone engine. This saves the volume now reserved for long duration sized fuel storage tanks. Such a LENR drone can take off from the us and get to the patrol zone anywhere in the world in just a few days saving the hassle of field support and fuel logistics, stay on station for a year and return back to its base in the US for a quick refueling and be back on station in less than a week. Cheers: Axil On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com wrote: At this point I will agree with inventor. I am anxiously waiting to see independent results of what has been invented and whether I will be impressed with his business and technical acumen. In his previous ventures he showed a lot of business and technical acumen. Not much lately. He also got himself into enormous trouble several times. He takes great risks, sometimes for no reason it seems to me. Such as when he made the 1 MW reactor. I cannot understand him! He is the most baffling person I have ever encountered. I do credit him with taking a world-changing concept and moving it forward in his own unique way... Yup. I wish he would use more conventional methods. The one thing I have learned is that you should not underestimate him. It is easy to make fun of him or dismiss some of his outlandish claims, such as the one about making monoisotopic Ni cheaply. His statements are often contradictory so they cannot all be true. It is all too easy to dismiss him as a nut or a con-man. As with Steve Jobs you have to low-pass filter his input. Sometimes people such as Jobs say all kinds of crazy, deluded or manipulative things. Sift through this, filter out the garbage, and you may find great ideas worth billions of dollars. Say what you like about Jobs, he was one of the most brilliant businessmen in U.S. history. He had a wonderful feel for design. He was like Charles Freer; not a great artist himself but one who recognized and collected great art with an unfailing eye. When dealing with people it is essential you learn to forgive their faults and embrace their contributions. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Why spammers claim to be Nigerian when they are not
He is not a conman because his technology has been tested too many times by too many people. At worst, he is a paranoid business man due to having very real enemies. If I were in his situation I would be paranoid too. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2012 10:24 PM Subject: [Vo]:Why spammers claim to be Nigerian when they are not I read a fascinating article and paper recently: Research Reveals Why Spammers Claim They're Nigerian A new paper claims obvious spam email is used to weed out all but the most gullible people online. http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/06/20/nigerian_spam_email_why_spam_email_is_so_obvious_.html This is about a Microsoft research paper: http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/167719/WhyFromNigeria.pdf This is a brilliant analysis. I have never heard of the idea before. The gist of it is in the headline: Internet scammers living in the U.S. often claim to be Nigerian bankers, and they make up the most outrageous, hackneyed and unbelievable stories. They want to eliminate all but the most gullible potential victims. Here is the title and abstract from Microsoft: Why do Nigerian Scammers Say They are from Nigeria? ABSTRACT False positives cause many promising detection technologies to be unworkable in practice. Attackers, we show, face this problem too. In deciding who to attack true positives are targets successfully attacked, while false positives are those that are attacked but yield nothing. This allows us to view the attacker’s problem as a binary classification. The most profitable strategy requires accurately distinguishing viable from non-viable users, and balancing the relative costs of true and false positives. We show that as victim density decreases the fraction of viable users than can be profitably attacked drops dramatically. For example, a 10× reduction in density can produce a 1000× reduction in the number of victims found. At very low victim densities the attacker faces a seemingly intractable Catch-22: unless he can distinguish viable from non-viable users with great accuracy the attacker cannot find enough victims to be profitable. However, only by finding large numbers of victims can he learn how to accurately distinguish the two. Finally, this approach suggests an answer to the question in the title. Far-fetched tales of West African riches strike most as comical. Our analysis suggests that is an advantage to the attacker, not a disadvantage. Since his attack has a low density of victims the Nigerian scammer has an over-riding need to reduce false positives. By sending an email that repels all but the most gullible the scammer gets the most promising marks to self-select, and tilts the true to false positive ratio in his favor. I expect similar predation strategies exist in nature. A gray hawk nests close to my house. She often flies just above the trees, in a straight line, making an ungodly noise that every prey animal for a mile around knows that only a hawk will make. It is as if she is announcing her presence, speed and vector. It is the opposite of the stealthy sneak-up-and-grab technique of a cat. It is more like what a pack of wolves will do. I assumed this was flush out animals and birds that panic. Maybe not. Maybe it is form of the Nigerian scam strategy. The hawk drives off the fast prey animals, leaving only slow, immature, sick or old animals lagging behind, which are the preferred targets for any predator. To bring this discussion on topic -- When I read this, I could not at first think of why it bothered me. Then I realized. I have often said that Rossi could not be a con-man because he inspires no confidence. On the contrary, he makes most people I know want to run for the exits. Now I wonder . . . could it be that he is a con-man, and he is using a predation strategy similar to these fake Nigerians. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:ILENRS-12 at WM
Rossi stated on his blog that he has used radio frequency generators all along, but that in the past they were internal. In one of his early tests I heard there was a box that had tesla coil written on it. From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2012 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:ILENRS-12 at WM And yet Brillouin Energy‘s President and Chief Technical Officer Robert E. Godes has selflessly posted critical help on Rossi's web site that has enabled Rossi to develop his latest reaction approach; and Rossi was grateful for it. The same is true for the advice he got from NI and his first government based customer. Since you know him so well, please explain this dichotomy in rossi's relationships with people; what makes a person a snake and a clown and what makes a person a valuable friend. Cheers: Axil On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 1:42 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: The 1 MW plant is on the market. If you want data, you need money. You need $1.5 million. That is an absurd sum of money, and the 1 MW reactor is an absurd machine. A single unit from it would suffice. If I had $1.5 million I could probably try to replicate Rossi from scratch, the way Defkalion now claims they did. I might not get the same high performance Rossi has, but it would probably be high enough to attract enough real money to finish the job. Several groups are trying to do that, with mixed results. Whatever it costs to replicate independently, it would be better than trying to deal with Rossi directly. He is a great inventor in many ways, but as a businessman he is impossible to deal with. He is a control freak. The way he treated the people from NASA was outrageous. It was unspeakable! They talked about it at WM. Rossi might have gotten millions of dollars in funding practically overnight. Instead, he threw them out and he thew away the opportunity in a momentary fit of pique. Just because he could not bring himself to admit the outlet pipe was plugged up with crud. This is idiotic, self-defeating egomania. It is very sad. Heck, the way he treated me was outrageous. He and Krivit deserve one another, like two scorpions in a bottle. Rossi is personally nice. He is a lot more honest and forthright than you might think based on his blog postings. He blabs and blusters a lot, but his core claims are all correct as far as I know. Most have been been independently verified by his collaborators, who are a long-suffering group of stalwart people. They have done much for him and in return he has often given them a sharp kick in the . . . genitals. (I want to maintain the proper academic decorum.) Rossi deserves a huge amount of credit for pushing this field along, using techniques pioneered by himself, Arata and Piantelli. He deserves billions of dollars -- if that's what he wants. But his temper and periodic fits of pique make him impossible to do business with. (A fit of pique is an old expression meaning acting badly because your pride is hurt.) Rossi is his own worst enemy. He suffers from the inventor's disease that has defeated so many others in cold fusion and in other fields throughout history. People try to help him but he blows them away, and mistrusts them, because he has had so many bad experiences in the post. Most of his bad experiences in the last few years have been entirely his own fault. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:ILENRS-12 at WM
Why doesn't the NASA folks post this report? It would be great for it to be posted so they could share their side, and Rossi could share his side. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2012 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:ILENRS-12 at WM Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: The 1 MW plant is on the market. If you want data, you need money. You need $1.5 million. That is an absurd sum of money, and the 1 MW reactor is an absurd machine. A single unit from it would suffice. If I had $1.5 million I could probably try to replicate Rossi from scratch, the way Defkalion now claims they did. I might not get the same high performance Rossi has, but it would probably be high enough to attract enough real money to finish the job. Several groups are trying to do that, with mixed results. Whatever it costs to replicate independently, it would be better than trying to deal with Rossi directly. He is a great inventor in many ways, but as a businessman he is impossible to deal with. He is a control freak. The way he treated the people from NASA was outrageous. It was unspeakable! They talked about it at WM. Rossi might have gotten millions of dollars in funding practically overnight. Instead, he threw them out and he thew away the opportunity in a momentary fit of pique. Just because he could not bring himself to admit the outlet pipe was plugged up with crud. This is idiotic, self-defeating egomania. It is very sad. Heck, the way he treated me was outrageous. He and Krivit deserve one another, like two scorpions in a bottle. Rossi is personally nice. He is a lot more honest and forthright than you might think based on his blog postings. He blabs and blusters a lot, but his core claims are all correct as far as I know. Most have been been independently verified by his collaborators, who are a long-suffering group of stalwart people. They have done much for him and in return he has often given them a sharp kick in the . . . genitals. (I want to maintain the proper academic decorum.) Rossi deserves a huge amount of credit for pushing this field along, using techniques pioneered by himself, Arata and Piantelli. He deserves billions of dollars -- if that's what he wants. But his temper and periodic fits of pique make him impossible to do business with. (A fit of pique is an old expression meaning acting badly because your pride is hurt.) Rossi is his own worst enemy. He suffers from the inventor's disease that has defeated so many others in cold fusion and in other fields throughout history. People try to help him but he blows them away, and mistrusts them, because he has had so many bad experiences in the post. Most of his bad experiences in the last few years have been entirely his own fault. - Jed
[Vo]:The Ridiculous Demand for Excessive E-Cat Proof
This is from a posting on E-Cat World. The Ridiculous Demand for Excessive E-Cat Proof I enjoyed following the E-Cat saga in the year 2011. Although I still enjoy following it to this day (things are really getting exciting with 600C steam), last year was particularly interesting. Just about every month there was a new TEST of an E-Cat. Each test seemed to utilize a new scientist, a new design of E-Cat, or a new test method. The conclusion after each of these tests was that the E-Cat worked, and produced a huge amount of excess power. Both tests with steam and tests with hot water as an output confirmed the huge amount of excess energy produced. It was also calculated that the huge amount of excess power could not have been produced by any non-nuclear, hidden power source. As the tests continued, things got more and more exciting as the test of the one megawatt plant neared. That test also turned out to be a success. It was conducted according to the guidelines of the engineer (with 30 years of experience in thermodynamic systems) chosen by the military customer. The one megawatt E-Cat plant ended up producing almost 500 kilowatts of power for several hours. What was even more exciting, was that the customer's consulting engineer signed off on the results. He agreed the test was a success. The only negative he noted was that there were a few leaking gaskets. To any reasonable person, the tests in 2011 were proof that the E-Cat technology was capable of producing large amounts of excess energy via novel nuclear reactions. However, for multiple reasons, certain individuals tried to belittle the technology. Some went so far as to claim all the tests were failures, and that Andrea Rossi was a fraud. They spread the disinformation via interviews, blog posts, articles on their websites, and comments on various blogs. they tried to create every problem they could to come up with an explanation convincing enough to make people doubt that the E-Cat was real and worked. Now, some of these individuals may have been honest skeptics who for some reason thought Andrea Rossi was conning innocent people. However, I think the most vocal of the critics had a specific agenda to discredit the E-Cat technology. In my opinion, it was because some of them were competitors. By dismissing and attacking the E-Cat technology far and wide (over and over again) some people would start to question the success of the tests. Sadly, their efforts worked to a degree, and many people were influenced by the propaganda. To this day, there are individuals who are calling for Rossi to perform additional tests. I am all for additional tests, but the problem is that they are claiming the previous tests were not open, did not have third party scientists present, and for multiple reasons were not valid. This is very far from the truth. Actually, many scientists and engineers participated in the tests of the E-Cat. Just a few that come to mind are Christos Stremmenos, Dr. Focardi, Dr. Levi, Mats Lewan, and the engineering consultant of the military customer. There were many others too, I just cannot remember them off the top of my head. These third party scientists watched the tests, observed the tests, took measurements, were involved in how the test was conducted, calculated the input/output, and did the math to determine the results. To say that no third party tests have been performed is simply not accurate. In addition to the public tests, there were private tests as well. The DOD, DOE, Ampenergo, and Defkalion all performed successful tests of E-Cats. Yes, perhaps there has not been a test in which an E-Cat was placed in an underground lab, filled with the top scientists from a hundred universities around the world testing it for weeks or months. However, it has been tested over and over again by qualified individuals. We have the results of many of these tests, and they prove the E-Cat works. However, all the tests in 2011 are not good enough for some individuals. They want new extensive tests of the E-Cat, because they cannot accept that the previous tests show the E-Cat works. I think that there is nothing wrong with wanting additional tests, but demanding them to prove the E-Cat works is an excessive demand for proof. There is a mindset out there -- inspired by some of the worst cynics on this planet -- that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This idea is false, ridiculous, and absurd. A claim of something extraordinary can be proven with the same amount of evidence as a claim of something that is not extraordinary. If you want to test a car with an internal combustion engine to see if it works you can put gasoline in it, drive a few miles, and easily determine the vehicle works. To prove a cold fusion powered car worked there would be no reason to do anything different. However, the cynics would have someone drive the cold fusion powered car
Re: [Vo]:The Ridiculous Demand for Excessive E-Cat Proof
You should specify that you think the tests were inadequate to show detailed measurements, but not inadequate to show that large amounts of excess energy were produced. I agree that many of the tests could have been performed and setup better, but I think they were all good enough to show massive excess heat. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, June 7, 2012 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Ridiculous Demand for Excessive E-Cat Proof I disagree. I think the tests were inadequate, for the reasons I gave here: http://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/?p=166 I think Mats Lewan agrees with me. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
This is absolutely pathetic. We have been promised test data over and over again for over a year, and Defkalion has yet again provide something totally different. In my opinion, this is an insult to all those who have been following them. If they wanted to work in the dark they had every opportunity to do so, and share nothing with the public. However, they promised on multiple occasions not only to provide test data, but also data from the certification process, the identities of the testers, protocols for the experiments, and even live webcam footage. Yet again, they have failed to provide any of the MEANINGFUL material they promised to provide. If they were polite, they would apologize for breaking their word, just share nothing at all from this point on, and go black. I'd rather them do that than tease and taunt us with a few images with almost no explanation, after promising us COMPLETE AND FULLY DETAILED TEST DATA WITH LIVE VIDEO! They need to choose one way or the other, as far as I am concerned. Anything else is simply rude. (Yes, I realize a private company does not owe the public anything, but in this case we were promised many things on multiple occasions. If they are not going to keep their word they need to be blunt and tell us, and go black.) From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:59 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies At 07:15 PM 5/10/2012, Alan J Fletcher wrote: At 04:42 PM 5/10/2012, ecat builder wrote: Wow. That is a spark plug on that reactor! See Pages 13, 14, 16, 18. Page 18 has a spark plug on the desk. Interesting... Maybe they preload hydrogen, let in some oxygen and ignite it. Gives a very sharp pressure/temperature pulse. I thought this was a neat idea for startup until I realized that this would form water in there, which would then need to be flushed out. I'd think that gas would not be flowing through an operating device, and consumption of hydrogen (requiring flow in) would be very low. It could be a lot more complicated than electrically heating the thing.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
They made many very specific promises. For example, they stated the results of the Greek certification tests would be revealed very soon over a year ago. They also stated that the tests would not take place without the protocols and other information being revealed before the tests. Although they did at one point say something about the results being subject to the testers, they also made statements they have not lived up to. The fact is that they claim to have a top notch, practical technology that is ready for the market. They bragged about this over a year ago at their big press conference. However, they have provided zero evidence of this to the public, despite them saying they would. At least Rossi allowed a dozen or more tests that clearly demonstrated (in my opinion) he was producing large amounts of excess heat. For example, the 18 hour test performed by Dr. Levi (which produced a constant output of around 15 kilowatts with only around a hundred watts of input) was particularly impressive. Also, the test of the one megawatt plant was also very impressive. Defkalion claims to have improved upon Rossi's technology, but have provided nothing to back up their claims. It's time for Defkalion to apologize, go black, and do their work in total secrecy, or provide some hard data like they have promised. From: Randy Wuller rwul...@freeark.com To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:49 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies I don't think they promised what you claim. Results were always subject to publication by the testers not Defkalion. Sent from my iPhone On May 10, 2012, at 8:34 PM, noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: This is absolutely pathetic. We have been promised test data over and over again for over a year, and Defkalion has yet again provide something totally different. In my opinion, this is an insult to all those who have been following them. If they wanted to work in the dark they had every opportunity to do so, and share nothing with the public. However, they promised on multiple occasions not only to provide test data, but also data from the certification process, the identities of the testers, protocols for the experiments, and even live webcam footage. Yet again, they have failed to provide any of the MEANINGFUL material they promised to provide. If they were polite, they would apologize for breaking their word, just share nothing at all from this point on, and go black. I'd rather them do that than tease and taunt us with a few images with almost no explanation, after promising us COMPLETE AND FULLY DETAILED TEST DATA WITH LIVE VIDEO! They need to choose one way or the other, as far as I am concerned. Anything else is simply rude. (Yes, I realize a private company does not owe the public anything, but in this case we were promised many things on multiple occasions. If they are not going to keep their word they need to be blunt and tell us, and go black.) From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:59 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies At 07:15 PM 5/10/2012, Alan J Fletcher wrote: At 04:42 PM 5/10/2012, ecat builder wrote: Wow. That is a spark plug on that reactor! See Pages 13, 14, 16, 18. Page 18 has a spark plug on the desk. Interesting... Maybe they preload hydrogen, let in some oxygen and ignite it. Gives a very sharp pressure/temperature pulse. I thought this was a neat idea for startup until I realized that this would form water in there, which would then need to be flushed out. I'd think that gas would not be flowing through an operating device, and consumption of hydrogen (requiring flow in) would be very low. It could be a lot more complicated than electrically heating the thing.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
I heard that a long time ago during one of his tests there was a box that was labeled Tesla coil that had a wire that fed into the reactor. I think Rossi has probably experimented with multiple types of radio frequency stimulation, along with electric discharges. By the way, Cesium cannot be the catalyst because Andrea Rossi does not use radioactive elements, unless there is a non radioactive isotope of Cesium. From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Rossi has not mentioned anything about spark plugs, though I suspect that sparks being central to his design, he would misdirect about it. I am of the opinion that those things that are mentioned by Rossi are the wrong ideas, while those things that he is curiously silent about are the key. A basic assumption I am working from is that Rossi would misdirect, while DGT would be more candid. So far, that assumption appears to hold. I believe Rossi calls his high voltage sparks as RF. I've always wondered about the amount of electronics in Rossi's blue box. Seems to me that if you only wanted to control power to a resistance heater, you won't need that tangled web of electronics we saw in his blue box. Those electronics are for some process totalling unrelated to his resistance heating, IMO. Remember one of those videos by Matts Lewan. Krivit rightly mentioned that before Lewan entered the room where the steam output was, there appears to be no steam popping noise. When Lewan entered the room, the steam immediately started popping. When Lewan went back, he caught Rossi red handed with his hands at the controls manipulating something. I speculate that Rossi was manipulating sparks. That's the most logical conclusion for me as no other heating mechanism can instantaneously create lots of heat and steam in the time it takes Lewan to enter the room (probably a few seconds). As for your question on how to distribute the heat, you are right, but the answer is turbulence. In another thread, I speculated that sparking must be accompanied by turbulence and mixing. If not, the sparks would quickly cook and melt the nickel nanostructures critical to the process. A design must be made that would insure that sparks do not follow the same path everrytime, and if it does, it must not pass through the same set of nickel powder particles. Hence, turbulence is key. I have designed my reactor to achieve both these goals. I believe for me, it is now just a matter of hunting for that secret ingredient. Axil's speculation about Cesium being the secret ingredient is quite compelling. Jojo - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Jojo, I do not recall any evidence of a spark plug or similar device in Rossi's designs. It is true that the internal heating unit was well concealed and not subject to inspection during his first small cylindrical design. Also, I suspect that it would be possible to carefully construct a small spark gap that could be driven by the PWM controller that he used for these tests. Perhaps that is his secret sauce. Do you recall any evidence from his statements that suggests the use of sparks for the purpose you mentioned? I can not remember any mention whatsoever of this process in any of his correspondences. We will only know for sure when we actually get our hands upon some of his products. I suspect that Rossi is having trouble with control of his devices because he depends upon temperature as the main driving force behind the energy production. DGT may have discovered the spark process with one stroke of genius and that is why they are doing so well with their development. Your thoughts about the rapid heating and cooling due to sparks within the hydrogen are interesting. I would be concerned that the local heating due to this effect would be excessive as in a hydrogen torch and would degrade the nickel by melting. How would you distribute the heating so as to alleviate this issue? Dave -Original Message- From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, May 10, 2012 9:54 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Dave, I disagree. I think the use of High Voltage Sparks is fundamental in both Rossi's Ecat and the DGT Hyperions. I believe it is the best way to create Ionized Hydrogen for the process. I suspect the bulk heater is used to bring the temps up and then use the Sparks to control the reaction by controlling the amount of Ionized hydrogen available for the process. In a previous thread, (I believe it was To spark
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
But whose technology are they going to be testing? Possibility #1 -- Their own tech they developed from scratch. (THIS WOULD BE WORTH CELEBRATING!) Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Possibility #3 -- Their own technology derived from information gathered about the E-Cat they were not supposed to have, that may have been acquired without Rossi's permission. (This would still be a horrible tragedy.) If number one is the case, I will be eager to find out the results of the testing. I will also celebrate if the results are positive. If number two or three is the case, I hope that Rossi is prepared to defend his intellectual property. From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:34 PM Subject: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time I thought I'd bring the discussion back on topic a little bit. Not too long before the testing starts. It is now the day of the test and if the Hyperion performs as claimed, it is the moment society has needed for a long time. We probably won't get very good results at least for a few days, but hopefully we get positive news very soon.
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Recognition is not the issue here. The issue is property rights. Even if Apple, Google, and Microsoft get away with stealing other companies technologies (or having to pay a fine) it is not OK. If a company is found to be using another company's tech without permission, the offending company should not be allowed to sell products using the tech. We do not know if Defkalion is using Rossi's tech (or tech directly inspired by the E-Cat) or not. But if they are, I hope Rossi will do everything legal and lawful in his power to stop them. If they are using an original technology, then I hope they sell a billion Hyperions. From: Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 5:50 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time If the devices work, I think all options are OK. Apple, Google, Microsoft and others are in patent wars all the time. It's just business. Who knows, the IP rights may have already expired on some of this stuff anyway. Rossi will get his recognition as one of the early inventors/developers and the lawyers will get their fees! On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 4:31 AM, noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: But whose technology are they going to be testing? Possibility #1 -- Their own tech they developed from scratch. (THIS WOULD BE WORTH CELEBRATING!) Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Possibility #3 -- Their own technology derived from information gathered about the E-Cat they were not supposed to have, that may have been acquired without Rossi's permission. (This would still be a horrible tragedy.) If number one is the case, I will be eager to find out the results of the testing. I will also celebrate if the results are positive. If number two or three is the case, I hope that Rossi is prepared to defend his intellectual property. From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:34 PM Subject: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time I thought I'd bring the discussion back on topic a little bit. Not too long before the testing starts. It is now the day of the test and if the Hyperion performs as claimed, it is the moment society has needed for a long time. We probably won't get very good results at least for a few days, but hopefully we get positive news very soon.
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
The big issue here is the catalysts and special preparation of the nickel powders (enrichment with certain isotopes). If they are using his catalyst or developed a catalyst of their own by examining the catalysts of the E-Cat when they were not supposed to do so, I think that is unethical. Also, he claims that his enrichment methods are proprietary. Even if they avoided making a copy by having access to his catalyst when they were not allowed to do so, they are still in the wrong. The way I see it, if they ever gained access to Rossi's IP without permission and used it in the development of their technology, their technology is not original. The only way for their technology to be one hundred percent original is if they never gained any information about the E-Cat without permission, or if they did, used engineers to develop the Hyperion that were never given access to that information. In addition, Andrea Rossi has stated that he regularly produces 1600C inside the reactor cores. The units that he is building for home use and in one megawatt plants will probably have lower internal temperatures, for stability. The ECat can produce high temperatures, but the problem is at high temperatures the system can go unstable, and melt the nickel powder. They may or may not be ahead of Rossi. They have not allowed a single test so far. It is possible they are ahead of the ECat, but we need test data to find out. From: Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:35 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time from the data they give : the H2 pressure is higher (50bars) no radiofrequency capacity to work much above 400C (600C,900C) many catalyst tested much better control (by pulse modulation), perfect stability. it seems that they simply reinvent it from the asic Ni+H idea, probably using public data, and maybe sobt hint from what they see, to avoid copying or where to look at... if they are serious they use what they know about e-cat not to copy it. clearly they are much ahead, even compare to new rossi data... 2012/2/24 noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com But whose technology are they going to be testing? Possibility #1 -- Their own tech they developed from scratch. (THIS WOULD BE WORTH CELEBRATING!) Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Possibility #3 -- Their own technology derived from information gathered about the E-Cat they were not supposed to have, that may have been acquired without Rossi's permission. (This would still be a horrible tragedy.) If number one is the case, I will be eager to find out the results of the testing. I will also celebrate if the results are positive. If number two or three is the case, I hope that Rossi is prepared to defend his intellectual property. From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:34 PM Subject: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time I thought I'd bring the discussion back on topic a little bit. Not too long before the testing starts. It is now the day of the test and if the Hyperion performs as claimed, it is the moment society has needed for a long time. We probably won't get very good results at least for a few days, but hopefully we get positive news very soon.
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
2 and 3 would be a tragedy, because it would mean the Hyperion is not original. It could also mean that they are using Rossi's IP without permission. I hope Defkalion's technology is original. It very well may be. But if it is not, it is a shame that they did not simply pay Rossi earlier in 2011 so they could continue working together. Instead, if 2 or 3 is true, Rossi may be able to use legal means to stop them from using the tech without permission. I am really hoping the Defkalion technology is original and works exactly as they claim. If that is the case, it is a huge breakthrough that will change the world. From: Charly Sistovaris charlysi...@gmail.com To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:45 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time #1 I doubt it #2 #3 the only tragedy is if ecat's a hoax... On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 10:31 AM, noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: But whose technology are they going to be testing? Possibility #1 -- Their own tech they developed from scratch. (THIS WOULD BE WORTH CELEBRATING!) Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Possibility #3 -- Their own technology derived from information gathered about the E-Cat they were not supposed to have, that may have been acquired without Rossi's permission. (This would still be a horrible tragedy.) If number one is the case, I will be eager to find out the results of the testing. I will also celebrate if the results are positive. If number two or three is the case, I hope that Rossi is prepared to defend his intellectual property. From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:34 PM Subject: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time I thought I'd bring the discussion back on topic a little bit. Not too long before the testing starts. It is now the day of the test and if the Hyperion performs as claimed, it is the moment society has needed for a long time. We probably won't get very good results at least for a few days, but hopefully we get positive news very soon.
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit. The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own company. If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any credit, money, or other compensation. I would also hope he would turn down the nobel prize. I hope his mission in life becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology without permission. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Nonsense. Companies use technology all the time without permission. This would not be a horrible tragedy; it would be an economic windfall for a bunch of lawyers. There would be negotiations and possibly trials. Eventually Defkalion would pay Rossi a large sum of money, the way they originally intended to do. In situations like this, sales continue normally while the lawyers battled it out. People buying the equipment would never know there is a legal battle going on unless they read the business section of the newspapers. All important technology always escapes from the inventor. That is why we have patents. If there is a problem here, it is because either the Patent Office has failed to do their job, or Rossi has not submitted a properly written patent. His previous patents looked invalid to me. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
A principled inventor would not accept a penny in damages in exchange for the other company to continue selling the products. A principled inventor would demand that the other company re-call their products, and be forced to STOP SELLING THEM. If I was an injured inventor, I would want sales to stop immediately. I would want them to stop so I could sell the products from my company, or from officially licensed parties. The lure of a hundred billion dollars would not be enough to make me sacrifice my principles. If Rossi has had his technology stolen or has his technology stolen in the future (I do not know if it has happened or will happen) then I hope he does not receive the Noble Prize, or any payments from those who have copied his technology. I would hope for one thing, that the companies who have copied his technology are forced to recall any products they have sold, and stop selling any more. If I was an inventor who had my tech stolen by Microsoft or Apple, I would demand the same thing. Even if it meant every single iPAD or iPhone that used my technology being taken off the market. If it bankrupts the other company having to pay back all their customers, so be it. From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 10:08 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time From Jed, noone noone wrote: Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Nonsense. I agree, What well-known company has not filed suit against a potential competitor for daring to kick the tires of their product. Think of Apple. Meanwhile, it's business as usual. Or as Trump would say, it's just business. Meanwhile, nobody wants sales to stop. Cessation of sales would translate to no more money that could be awarded to the injured party! If DGT ends up whipping Rossi's ass, hopefully the inventor will end up with a reasonably satisfactory out-of-court consolation prize. ...A reasonable sum, perhaps amounting to several hundred million Euros - for pain and suffering. We'll see. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
For the record, I do not know if Defkalion is using a copy of Rossi's technology (or a technology developed after obtaining Rossi's IP without permission) or not. I do not know what the truth is about the situation. However, I find the comments from yourself and others who seem not to care about property rights very troublesome. All it seems some people care about is this technology getting out there regardless if theft has taken place. A world that allows theft to take place for the good of masses is not a world that I would want to live in. It would be a socialist, big government nightmare in which the individuals rights are sacrificed for the good of the many. I want cold fusion and other exotic technologies to change the world. I want it to save lives. But not at the cost of the inventors property rights! Again, money is not the issue here. If I were Rossi, money is not what would matter to me. I would turn down any dime of compensation. I would throw the Noble Prize on the ground and spit on it. I would only be satisfied if other companies that were copying my tech were forced to stop doing so. From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time That's not going to happen. Almost everyone who has made a lot of money off of new technology has stolen it from someone else. If Rossi really does have something, I hope he does get the money and fame he deserves, but I'm much more concerned about getting this product out to the public as soon as possible, and I'm not willing to wait for Rossi so he can make money. On Feb 24, 2012, at 11:55 AM, noone noone wrote: If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit. The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own company. If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any credit, money, or other compensation. I would also hope he would turn down the nobel prize. I hope his mission in life becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology without permission. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Nonsense. Companies use technology all the time without permission. This would not be a horrible tragedy; it would be an economic windfall for a bunch of lawyers. There would be negotiations and possibly trials. Eventually Defkalion would pay Rossi a large sum of money, the way they originally intended to do. In situations like this, sales continue normally while the lawyers battled it out. People buying the equipment would never know there is a legal battle going on unless they read the business section of the newspapers. All important technology always escapes from the inventor. That is why we have patents. If there is a problem here, it is because either the Patent Office has failed to do their job, or Rossi has not submitted a properly written patent. His previous patents looked invalid to me. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
When it comes to sticking to my principles, it does not matter what people think of me. I'm the kind of person who goes into church and asks Christians, who would Jesus bomb. At that point I'm automatically considered an evil liberal. In this life you can usually take two roads when it comes to most decisions. The first road is the one that is a compromise of your principles, and branches out to many different roads. This road is often easier to ride on, has fewer bumps, and makes a commute easy. The second road is the one where you refuse to budge one inch on your principles. It is full of bumps, and can easily get you a flat tire. For example, a woman divorcing her husband after being cheated on (THE FIRST TIME) despite having ten kids and no way to financially support them, and her husband apologizing. Divorce is the only appropriate answer, even if it could mean the kids end up being sent to orphanages and never seeing each other again. Some may say she should have not divorced her husband, but I believe her principles are more important than anything else. If I were Andrea Rossi and if my technology had been copied without permission (I'm not saying it has) I would let the world consider me the most evil man in history. I would sleep just fine at night knowing that I did the right thing, by standing up for not only my rights, and the property rights of all other inventors. A world without absolute rights is not worth living in. Sadly, the way the world is going, individuals are having their rights violated more and more each day. From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone sez: If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit. The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own company. Good luck. You give me the impression that you think you can go to court and win your case in a just few weeks, and then everything will be honky dorey. Think again. Think years. Many, many years. And during all those contentious years of unending litigation that will make many a lawyer rich, and while you are demanding all those recalls, and to a complete halt to sales, just think of all the good PR you will be generating for yourself. People across the planet are desperate for any kind of cheaper energy. But your sense of demanding justice could end up potentially denying a huge portion of the population that opportunity - all on personal principle. I'm sure they will all understand your personal sense of outrage for not getting even richer off of your invention. But of course you'll be right. You have that going for you. Don't get me wrong. I would be pissed off, too, if someone stole my invention. But consider the ramifications of how best to get even with the competition. Try to get even without turning yourself in to the energy pariah of the century - someone who will be written up in the history books as having denied millions of desperate individuals access to cheap energy because he was unhappy over the fact that someone was making profits off of something that he thought he should be profiting over himself. If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any credit, money, or other compensation. I would also hope he would turn down the nobel prize. I hope his mission in life becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology without permission. Shish! I'm glad I don't think the way you do. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Absolutely. I would not care if everyone would be better off, including myself. I would not care even if by accepting damages and letting the other company continue producing the units a million lives would be saved. Our rights and freedoms are more important than our physical bodies. I want other people's lives to be better too. I've not suffered as much as many people in the world, but I know what poverty is like. Sometimes doing the right thing means that you have to endure hardship. From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time If everyone was better off, including yourself, you'd still follow your values? I completely disagree with this. All I care about is making people's lives better. On Feb 24, 2012, at 12:32 PM, noone noone wrote: When it comes to sticking to my principles, it does not matter what people think of me. I'm the kind of person who goes into church and asks Christians, who would Jesus bomb. At that point I'm automatically considered an evil liberal. In this life you can usually take two roads when it comes to most decisions. The first road is the one that is a compromise of your principles, and branches out to many different roads. This road is often easier to ride on, has fewer bumps, and makes a commute easy. The second road is the one where you refuse to budge one inch on your principles. It is full of bumps, and can easily get you a flat tire. For example, a woman divorcing her husband after being cheated on (THE FIRST TIME) despite having ten kids and no way to financially support them, and her husband apologizing. Divorce is the only appropriate answer, even if it could mean the kids end up being sent to orphanages and never seeing each other again. Some may say she should have not divorced her husband, but I believe her principles are more important than anything else. If I were Andrea Rossi and if my technology had been copied without permission (I'm not saying it has) I would let the world consider me the most evil man in history. I would sleep just fine at night knowing that I did the right thing, by standing up for not only my rights, and the property rights of all other inventors. A world without absolute rights is not worth living in. Sadly, the way the world is going, individuals are having their rights violated more and more each day. From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone sez: If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit. The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own company. Good luck. You give me the impression that you think you can go to court and win your case in a just few weeks, and then everything will be honky dorey. Think again. Think years. Many, many years. And during all those contentious years of unending litigation that will make many a lawyer rich, and while you are demanding all those recalls, and to a complete halt to sales, just think of all the good PR you will be generating for yourself. People across the planet are desperate for any kind of cheaper energy. But your sense of demanding justice could end up potentially denying a huge portion of the population that opportunity - all on personal principle. I'm sure they will all understand your personal sense of outrage for not getting even richer off of your invention. But of course you'll be right. You have that going for you. Don't get me wrong. I would be pissed off, too, if someone stole my invention. But consider the ramifications of how best to get even with the competition. Try to get even without turning yourself in to the energy pariah of the century - someone who will be written up in the history books as having denied millions of desperate individuals access to cheap energy because he was unhappy over the fact that someone was making profits off of something that he thought he should be profiting over himself. If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any credit, money, or other compensation. I would also hope he would turn down the nobel prize. I hope his mission in life becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology without permission. Shish! I'm glad I don't think the way you do. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
The issue is not the design, but the catalysts and special treatment of the nickel powders. We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual property. We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have stolen intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped from selling any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by studying Rossi's IP without permission.) Again, this is not about needs. The world needs this technology very badly, or I think modern civilization may not exist in 20 years. Despite how badly the world needs this technology, their needs are not more important than Andrea Rossi's right to property. If you approve of someone's right to property being violated to benefit others, then you must not have a problem with muggers holding people up in the street as long as they use the money for good purposes. From: David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com To: thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time It is fairly clear to me that DGT has a different design than Rossi. You seem to be over reacting to the situation as we need both companies. I personally think the world needs LENR a lot more than Rossi needs money and I think it is prudent for the lawyers to argue about IP later as is usually the case. Dave -Original Message- From: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:03 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time A principled inventor would not accept a penny in damages in exchange for the other company to continue selling the products. A principled inventor would demand that the other company re-call their products, and be forced to STOP SELLING THEM. If I was an injured inventor, I would want sales to stop immediately. I would want them to stop so I could sell the products from my company, or from officially licensed parties. The lure of a hundred billion dollars would not be enough to make me sacrifice my principles. If Rossi has had his technology stolen or has his technology stolen in the future (I do not know if it has happened or will happen) then I hope he does not receive the Noble Prize, or any payments from those who have copied his technology. I would hope for one thing, that the companies who have copied his technology are forced to recall any products they have sold, and stop selling any more. If I was an inventor who had my tech stolen by Microsoft or Apple, I would demand the same thing. Even if it meant every single iPAD or iPhone that used my technology being taken off the market. If it bankrupts the other company having to pay back all their customers, so be it. From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 10:08 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time From Jed, noone noone wrote: Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Nonsense. I agree, What well-known company has not filed suit against a potential competitor for daring to kick the tires of their product. Think of Apple. Meanwhile, it's business as usual. Or as Trump would say, it's just business. Meanwhile, nobody wants sales to stop. Cessation of sales would translate to no more money that could be awarded to the injured party! If DGT ends up whipping Rossi's ass, hopefully the inventor will end up with a reasonably satisfactory out-of-court consolation prize. ...A reasonable sum, perhaps amounting to several hundred million Euros - for pain and suffering. We'll see. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
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One, the fact is that when it comes to me standing up for my principles, I don't care what people think about me. I would rather they think favorably of me, but if they do not I am not going to let it change my behavior. I have been called all sorts of names for supporting my various beliefs, but I kept on going. I kept on going when it made me an outcast. I eventually embraced it and realized that when people react strongly against you, that is a sign you were bold enough in your declaration of values. If no one opposes you or reacts negatively, you were either preaching to the choir, or cowardly in your presentation. Secondly, when it comes to divorce and marriage, I think the moment someone has sexual relations with someone who is not the spouse the marriage is broken. First of all, it is broken spiritually. This is my personal religious belief. I think the spiritual connection that makes a couple married is cut. Secondly, I think the relationship is severely damaged even on a non-spiritual level. It will be very difficult for one partner to trust the other. I don't think the person who was cheated on will ever view the cheater in the same way again. Third, there are all kinds of other issues to do with. For example, the FACT that if someone cheats once they are likely to cheat again. If a couple wants to stay married that is one thing, but I think it is unprincipled. I am not married and have never been, but if I were married and my spouse cheated on me, I would strive to get the divorce done and over with ASAP. Thankfully, I've not been in a situation this horrible personally, but I've been in other situations were principled decisions yielded significant consequences. Of course if a couple are not Christian and have an open marriage and have no problem with sex outside the confounds of marriage, then cheating is not an issue at all. Third, I am a Christian, but many Christians are not real Christians. For example, consider the countless neo-cons in the United States that promote the idea of going to war with Iran and other Middle Eastern nations. They are rabid about this, and despise liberals. I have brought up the fact that many so called Christians have turned into blood thirsty warmongers by supporting wars with Iran and other nations, and have been attacked for it. I know how Christians think about this issue. Fourth, the simple fact is that when it comes to certain issues, there can be no ethical compromise. My religious views on marriage is one example. Standing up for rights and freedoms (property rights) is another example. For many things there is a need for compromise. But when it comes to rights and freedoms there is no room for compromise. From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 4:17 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time It's been a slow-news Friday afternoon, so please accept my apologies for continuing this protracted discussion with noone noone: The world according to noone noone: If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit. The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own company. When it comes to sticking to my principles, it does not matter what people think of me. It's been my experience that when I hear people boast that they don't care ...what other people think about [them]. they are essentially trying to convince themselves that they have found a magic bullet that allows themselves to become immune to what other people think about them. It matters, noone. It always matters. It's learning how to DEAL with how others think about you... that is a lesson in life we all must face. Its learning to find one's personal center. It's learning how to discover one's sense of personal integrity so that one can subsequently withstand the onslaught of external pressures demanding that we conform to specific social taboos. Quite frankly, it looks to me as if you are trying to remove yourself from having to deal with the anticipation of personal pain you fear you will feel based on what you fear others might say about you or think about you. You think you can avoid this lesson? Think again. Avoiding that lesson only means it will come back in another scenario again, and again, until you have the courage to pass through that fire. I'm the kind of person who goes into church and asks Christians, who would Jesus bomb. At that point I'm automatically considered an evil liberal. I have no idea how making such a statement about whom ...Jesus would bomb could possibly cause ANYONE to assume that you must therefore be an evil liberal. Are you sure you are reading their responses accurately
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I am not an expert at law, but I would strive to stop someone from selling my technology without permission even if it was a futile battle. If I did decide to take money (if I thought it was the best way to fight against the company using my technology), I would let it be known to the courts that any money awarded to me would be instantly used to try and stop the activities of the party that stole my technology. For example, I would make products and give them away to stop people from purchasing products from the other company. Or I would wage a PR campaign against the other company. Also, a possibility would be to use the money to hire more lawyers to make the life of the company as miserable as possible. I would also not allow the offending company to obtain a license agreement. I would tell the Judge flat out that I would rather be publicly drawn, hung, and quartered rather than sign the piece of paper. He may end up awarding the technology ownership fully to the other company, but at least I would have stuck up for what was right. The world you are describing is a nightmare world, in my opinion. It is a world that does not deserve cold fusion technology. I hope the reality of things are not as horrible as you portray. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual property. We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have stolen intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped from selling any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by studying Rossi's IP without permission.) That never happens, at least not in the U.S. That is not how civil lawsuits and patent laws are enforced. Everyone continues selling until the court decides. If there is an infringement the judge awards the winner with a large share of the profits from the loser. No one stops X from selling except when X is a minor player and putting X out of business would have no impact on consumers. They never shut down an industry or a major producer in such cases. When IBM and Hitachi fight about a semiconductor patent, both sides continue to manufacture and sell the chips until they settle out of court or the judge rules. The judge never tells IBM to stop making the chips in the meanwhile, because that would hurt other companies and consumers. There have been fights like this since patent laws were invented in the 17th century. This is not widely known, but the U.S. Patent Office and the judiciary do not allow companies or individuals to stifle an important technology. If Rossi does not sell his product, even if he has a patent others will soon be allowed to make the product. If Rossi refuses to license them, the judge will force him to do so. The judge will -- in effect -- draft a license agreement, or tell the lawyers to do it. It is widely believed that big companies can buy up a patent and prevent important technology from being developed. This is a myth. As I said, the courts will not allow it. They have ruled that the patent system cannot be used to prevent the spread of useful technology. They take a dim view of companies that seem to be stalling. In any case, patents do not last long and another company can often invent around the patent if the owner refuses to license it, so this strategy would not work. - Jed
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Money is not the point. The point is that if a company steals a technology from an inventor (again I am not saying Defkalion has stolen anything, I am speaking hypothetically) the company who stole the technology should not be allowed to sell products using the technology. Of course if the inventor WANTS to make a deal with them that is fine. However, if he does NOT want to make a deal with them, it should be his option to have the company that stole his technology re-call their products. It does not matter if the inventor could make a trillion dollars, and the offending company would only make one million dollars. If a company steals a technology they do not deserve to make one red cent off it, if that is the inventor's decision. Rewarding theft is not acceptable. If anyone supports companies being allowed to use technologies they have stolen against the will of the inventor, they must also not have a problem with burglars making profit off items they steal when breaking and entering into someone's home. For example, what Jed Rothwell describes is exactly the same as the following scenrio. A burgler enters someones home and steals thousands of items. He then starts a business selling those items. For example, maybe the business was baseball cards. The issue goes to court and the Judge fines the burglar for stealing the cards, but then allows the burglar to continue running the business. The fact is if someone steals from you they should not be able to continue using the stolen items in their business, period! It does not matter how much they are fined, or how much money they are willing to give you for allowing their business to stay open. The victim should be able to choose if he wants the burglar's business shut down or not, at least when it comes to the use of the stolen items. It is the same exact thing. From: Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time Jed is right on. There will be plenty of money to go around if this technology is a go On Friday, February 24, 2012, Jed Rothwell wrote: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual property. We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have stolen intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped from selling any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by studying Rossi's IP without permission.) That never happens, at least not in the U.S. That is not how civil lawsuits and patent laws are enforced. Everyone continues selling until the court decides. If there is an infringement the judge awards the winner with a large share of the profits from the loser. No one stops X from selling except when X is a minor player and putting X out of business would have no impact on consumers. They never shut down an industry or a major producer in such cases. When IBM and Hitachi fight about a semiconductor patent, both sides continue to manufacture and sell the chips until they settle out of court or the judge rules. The judge never tells IBM to stop making the chips in the meanwhile, because that would hurt other companies and consumers. There have been fights like this since patent laws were invented in the 17th century. This is not widely known, but the U.S. Patent Office and the judiciary do not allow companies or individuals to stifle an important technology. If Rossi does not sell his product, even if he has a patent others will soon be allowed to make the product. If Rossi refuses to license them, the judge will force him to do so. The judge will -- in effect -- draft a license agreement, or tell the lawyers to do it. It is widely believed that big companies can buy up a patent and prevent important technology from being developed. This is a myth. As I said, the courts will not allow it. They have ruled that the patent system cannot be used to prevent the spread of useful technology. They take a dim view of companies that seem to be stalling. In any case, patents do not last long and another company can often invent around the patent if the owner refuses to license it, so this strategy would not work. - Jed
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compromise. My religious views on marriage is one example. Standing up for rights and freedoms (property rights) is another example. For many things there is a need for compromise. But when it comes to rights and freedoms there is no room for compromise. From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 4:17 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time It's been a slow-news Friday afternoon, so please accept my apologies for continuing this protracted discussion with noone noone: The world according to noone noone: If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit. The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own company. When it comes to sticking to my principles, it does not matter what people think of me. It's been my experience that when I hear people boast that they don't care ...what other people think about [them]. they are essentially trying to convince themselves that they have found a magic bullet that allows themselves to become immune to what other people think about them. It matters, noone. It always matters. It's learning how to DEAL with how others think about you... that is a lesson in life we all must face. Its learning to find one's personal center. It's learning how to discover one's sense of personal integrity so that one can subsequently withstand the onslaught of external pressures demanding that we conform to specific social taboos. Quite frankly, it looks to me as if you are trying to remove yourself from having to deal with the anticipation of personal pain you fear you will feel based on what you fear others might say about you or think about you. You think you can avoid this lesson? Think again. Avoiding that lesson only means it will come back in another scenario again, and again, until you have the courage to pass through that fire. I'm the kind of person who goes into church and asks Christians, who would Jesus bomb. At that point I'm automatically considered an evil liberal. I have no idea how making such a statement about whom ...Jesus would bomb could possibly cause ANYONE to assume that you must therefore be an evil liberal. Are you sure you are reading their responses accurately, or is it possible that you hope you will be labeled as an evil liberal so that it gives you additional justification to dismiss how others will perceive you. From what you have told me so far, what all this seems to boil down to is the fact that you seem to be fishing around for convenient ways in which to avoid having to deal with how you fear others will perceive you. In this life you can usually take two roads when it comes to most decisions. The first road is the one that is a compromise of your principles, and branches out to many different roads. This road is often easier to ride on, has fewer bumps, and makes a commute easy. The second road is the one where you refuse to budge one inch on your principles. It is full of bumps, and can easily get you a flat tire. For example, a woman divorcing her husband after being cheated on (THE FIRST TIME) despite having ten kids and no way to financially support them, and her husband apologizing. Divorce is the only appropriate answer, even if it could mean the kids end up being sent to orphanages and never seeing each other again. Some may say she should have not divorced her husband, but I believe her principles are more important than anything else. I get the sense that certain elements pertaining to this hypothetical divorce scenario you have brought up may have touched on something that actually happened to you. In what capacity, I don't know. Nevertheless, you have my sympathies. Seeking counsel from individuals one has learned to trust is recommended. It can help. Now, in regards to the infidelity issue you cite here... quite frankly, noone, you are NOT dealing with principle here, even though you claim you are. The actions you cite have NOTHING to do with sticking to one's principles. To be perfectly blunt, you just don't want to deal with the complexities of what a dynamic relationship sometimes brings forth between two individuals. Sticking to the principals you cite here means you don't want to deal with WHY a spouse might have in the first place temporarily wandered from the sacred bonds and emotional security of marriage. You are using the excuse of sticking to your principles so that you can avoid some potential unpleasant soul-searching on your own part. What are you really afraid of? That maybe you'll discover the fact that you're just as imperfect as your spouse? After entering into discussion maybe a couple WILL discover the sad fact that they actually SHOULD separate, but then maybe
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I think there are critical aspects of Rossi's technology that are totally novel to cold fusion. Those are the ones that allow him to produce a practical amount of heat when no one else (that I am aware) has been able to do so. If these critical pieces of intellectual property have been stolen (I do not know if they have been or not) then I think he should do whatever it takes for him to stop any other company from using it without his permission. I realize IP issues are complicated. But in Rossi's case there is SOMETHING that is allowing him to produce huge amounts of heat. I think this is his catalyst and perhaps the specific preperation and enrichment of the nickel powder. I doubt that anyone could say that they own these aspects of his technology, because otherwise I think they would have tried to bring about a robust cold fusion technology years ago. This is not a joke. I am being serious. I not a very jovial person. I do NOT know if Rossi's intellectual property has been stolen or not. But from what I have read I cannot totally dismiss the possibility. The fact is I've already hurt myself and my family with decisions I have made that were based on principles. I'm sitting here unable to get the medical care (at least not without going through countless hoops) I need (nothing life threatening) because of my decisions. It is also the reason why I'm single and never married. I refused to compromise on my morals, even when the so called Christian women were willing to. I'm not a saint. I'm not perfect. I also do not claim that I've always stuck to every principle 100% of the time. I sin and I have to ask forgiveness. But I do my best to live an ethical life. If that hurts me financially or otherwise, I try to realize that you can't take with you anything when you are dead. You can only hope that you lived as ethically and morally as possible. From: David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:39 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time I think that you should consider that Rossi and many before him are using technology that was derived by others. It is seldom as simple as you seem to think when IP is being judicated. I recall when the company I worked with at the time as well as its main competitor would periodically have a patent battle. We all knew the game: each company would list a number of patents that they held which they considered violated. After a few lawyers were paid off, both sides would agree to allow the others to proceed with their production. It is a joke to think that Rossi does not owe his design to the shoulders upon which he stands. Look at all of the patents before him if you really think that his hands are totally clean. You seem to think too much in black and white when business is always handled in shades of gray. And I have a hard time believing that you really would rather see damage to everyone, including your family, in order to stand up for a principle that is not valid. Please explain how Rossi can be sure that his IP has been stolen by anyone? The only way that a determination of this sort can be handled is after an extensive court battle where all of the important conversations, any technology transfers, or other happening are examined. Are you knowledgeable of details that we have not been a party to? You do recall Rossi making claims that DGT does not have any knowledge from him don't you? What more do you require? This entire discussion is a bit silly and is most likely someone's idea of a joke. Dave -Original Message- From: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:02 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time I am not an expert at law, but I would strive to stop someone from selling my technology without permission even if it was a futile battle. If I did decide to take money (if I thought it was the best way to fight against the company using my technology), I would let it be known to the courts that any money awarded to me would be instantly used to try and stop the activities of the party that stole my technology. For example, I would make products and give them away to stop people from purchasing products from the other company. Or I would wage a PR campaign against the other company. Also, a possibility would be to use the money to hire more lawyers to make the life of the company as miserable as possible. I would also not allow the offending company to obtain a license agreement. I would tell the Judge flat out that I would rather be publicly drawn, hung, and quartered rather than sign the piece of paper. He may end up awarding the technology ownership fully to the other company, but at least I would have stuck up for what was right. The world you are describing is a nightmare world, in my opinion. It is a world that does
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Hello Jed, Once again, everyone points out there will be plenty of money for everyone. Everyone is obsessed with money. I am not. The fact is if I was in a situation where I was an inventor and my technology was stolen, money would be the last thing on my mind. If I was forced to accept money, I would work with lawyers to try and find the best way to use it against the company that stole my technology. I would not care how much I had to benefit, or the world had to benefit. I am in the real world. I realize I am not a law expert, but at the same time I know what is right and what is wrong. If I had a technology that was stolen, I would simply strive to do anything and everything to prevent the other company from being able to use my technology. I might fail, and they might be allowed to sell the technology. But I would do everything (that is peaceful and non-violent) to hinder that company for the rest of my life. Hopefully, I would at least slow down the proliferation of the stolen technology. Once again, I am speaking about a hypothetical stolen technology. Sadly, you and others seem to think the needs of the many are more important than the rights of the individual. That is how our sickening world works these days (for the most part). However, I hope that will change in the future. The rights of the individual must be protected at all cost, because otherwise life becomes meaningless. If I do not have my rights and freedoms protected, I might as well not be alive. I do not agree about Rossi. One thing about Rossi is that he never gives up. He is also a very hard worker. I think he will be successful. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:38 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: If I did decide to take money (if I thought it was the best way to fight against the company using my technology), I would let it be known to the courts that any money awarded to me would be instantly used to try and stop the activities of the party that stole my technology. 1. You can't talk in court. Only your lawyer can, and it has to be about the case. 2. They don't care what you use the money for. I would also not allow the offending company to obtain a license agreement. It would not be up to you. You can't make up laws as you go along. I would tell the Judge flat out that I would rather be publicly drawn, hung, and quartered rather than sign the piece of paper. Judges don't care what you think. You don't have to actually sign the paper for this to go into effect. Bear in mind also that these are civil suits. Jail sentences and the police play no role in them. In that sense it is quite different from stealing actual property. The world you are describing is a nightmare world, in my opinion. It is a world that does not deserve cold fusion technology. I hope the reality of things are not as horrible as you portray. This is the real world. You do not appear to know much about business, contracts and civil lawsuits. There are good reasons why we do things the way we do. You should not assume that laws and customs that have been in place for centuries are horrible. Sometimes they are dysfunctional or obsolete, but we have to be careful about changing long-standing institutions. The conservative attitude is justified. In this case, the system has protect the interests of customers, and it has to promote technological progress. The system cannot take into account only the intellectual property rights of the inventor, ignoring all other factors. If Defkalion succeeds I expect it will eventually benefit Rossi tremendously. He will make hundreds of millions of dollars. Left to his own devices, he would probably not make any money. I doubt that Defkalion has taken anything from him, but even if they have, he will probably get more from them than he could ever earn by himself. Don't fret about any of this. It will probably work out well for everyone. There will be barrels of money. Enough for everyone. In 10 years the dispute will be forgotten. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Here is a good example of someone who had their rights violated. http://www.therecord.com/news/local/article/676150--man-shocked-by-arrest-after-daughter-draws-picture-of-gun-at-school This guy had his rights violated in a number of different ways. He was not a criminal. Those that were involved in his abduction and sexual assault are the criminals. If a random person abducts a person and strips them naked it is a sexual assault. If a policeman does it for NO VALID REASON when no crime has been committed, it is a sexual assault too. There is no difference whatsoever. I would have not left the police station, and would have demanded to stay in the cell until everyone involved in my ABDUCTION was put in the cell instead. If they can arrest an individual for no valid reason, then logically that individual should be able to request to stay in their cell until the issue is settled. Of course due to the fact that the courts in this nation are biased against the rights of individuals, the man would probably have gotten in more trouble. But it would have been worth it. Even if his family suffered, he lost his job, or if his family got broken apart, it would have been worth it. If people do not stand up for their rights now, their children my end up in even worse situations in the future. What if his daughter one day got arrested for her daughter drawing an image of a vitamin supplement bottle (some are pushing for supplements to be regulated like drugs) such as Co Enzyme Q10? It could happen. If people don't start PEACEFULLY and NON-VIOLENTLY start demanding their rights be protected then before long we will have no rights at all. This is why I want space exploration to happen ASAP. I am hoping some colony worlds might be a bit saner than our planet is today. However, you and others will probably say the school and police were justified, because it was in the name of public safety or something. Well, as far as I know, the 2nd amendment is still in the constitution. If Rossi's rights have been violated by any company then he needs to stand up for himself. By doing so, he will also be standing up for all future inventors. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:38 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: If I did decide to take money (if I thought it was the best way to fight against the company using my technology), I would let it be known to the courts that any money awarded to me would be instantly used to try and stop the activities of the party that stole my technology. 1. You can't talk in court. Only your lawyer can, and it has to be about the case. 2. They don't care what you use the money for. I would also not allow the offending company to obtain a license agreement. It would not be up to you. You can't make up laws as you go along. I would tell the Judge flat out that I would rather be publicly drawn, hung, and quartered rather than sign the piece of paper. Judges don't care what you think. You don't have to actually sign the paper for this to go into effect. Bear in mind also that these are civil suits. Jail sentences and the police play no role in them. In that sense it is quite different from stealing actual property. The world you are describing is a nightmare world, in my opinion. It is a world that does not deserve cold fusion technology. I hope the reality of things are not as horrible as you portray. This is the real world. You do not appear to know much about business, contracts and civil lawsuits. There are good reasons why we do things the way we do. You should not assume that laws and customs that have been in place for centuries are horrible. Sometimes they are dysfunctional or obsolete, but we have to be careful about changing long-standing institutions. The conservative attitude is justified. In this case, the system has protect the interests of customers, and it has to promote technological progress. The system cannot take into account only the intellectual property rights of the inventor, ignoring all other factors. If Defkalion succeeds I expect it will eventually benefit Rossi tremendously. He will make hundreds of millions of dollars. Left to his own devices, he would probably not make any money. I doubt that Defkalion has taken anything from him, but even if they have, he will probably get more from them than he could ever earn by himself. Don't fret about any of this. It will probably work out well for everyone. There will be barrels of money. Enough for everyone. In 10 years the dispute will be forgotten. - Jed
[Vo]:SK and Widom Larsen Theory -- What do we know?
What do we know about Steven Krivit in regards to Widom Larsen theory? It seems obvious that he is eager to push the theory at every opportunity. In fact, he has went on a rampage against the term cold fusion. What is so ridiculous about this is that even if WL theory is correct (which I do not think it is), it still seems like a form of fusion in my opinion. In addition, he seems to write unfavorably about those researchers that use the term cold fusion instead of LENR. Perhaps even more interestingly, he goes out of his way to promote Widom Larsen theory to NASA scientists and many others. What is his exact relationship to Widom Larsen theory? How is he connected to the originators of the theory? I've read some online posts here and elsewhere in which it is speculated that his financial backers may have a vested interest in WL theory. I do not know if this is true or not, but his continual support of WL theory makes it difficult to deny the possibility. Does anyone here have any solid information? Between everyone here I think we should be able to determine the truth. Thanks.
Re: [Vo]:SK and Widom Larsen Theory -- What do we know?
Thanks for posting Rossi's comments. It would be great if we could get some confirmation. Does anyone here have any information indicating that Krivit is indeed connected with the originators of WL theory? From: Andre Blum andre_vor...@blums.nl To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:SK and Widom Larsen Theory -- What do we know? This is what Rossi said today about Krivit: The snake is not a skeptic, is a puppet paid by puppeteers who would compete with us but are not able to. He is strongly connected with their company. He gets money to make libelling against us also from other 2 well identified entities. We will give detailed and throughly information in due time. Everything in due time, we will get some fun. On 02/22/2012 03:29 PM, noone noone wrote: What is his exact relationship to Widom Larsen theory? How is he connected to the originators of the theory? I've read some online posts here and elsewhere in which it is speculated that his financial backers may have a vested interest in WL theory. I do not know if this is true or not, but his continual support of WL theory makes it difficult to deny the possibility. Does anyone here have any solid information? Between everyone here I think we should be able to determine the truth. Thanks.
Re: [Vo]:SK and Widom Larsen Theory -- What do we know?
Exactly. I want verification -- not just rumors or guesses. Due to Krivit's behavior I could guess that he may have some connection to the originators of WL theory, but I cannot prove it. I have zero proof. Does anyone here have any proof that actually links Krivit to Larsen, Widom, or Lattice Energy? I cannot believe that someone that pushes a theory like he does -- attacking credible researchers in the process -- does not have some sort of incentive to do so. From: Andre Blum andre_vor...@blums.nl To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 3:40 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:SK and Widom Larsen Theory -- What do we know? It seems noone wants to verify like you recommend. That is, not noone, someone. noone. On 02/22/2012 04:38 PM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson wrote: From Blum This is what Rossi said today about Krivit: The snake is not a skeptic, is a puppet paid by puppeteers who would compete with us but are not able to. He is strongly connected with their company. He gets money to make libelling against us also from other 2 well identified entities. We will give detailed and throughly information in due time. Everything in due time, we will get some fun. Don't believe everything that Rossi says. As president Reagan became famous for saying: Trust, but verify. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
[Vo]:Rossi's Appropriate Decision -- One Million E-Cats For The Win
Hello Everyone, The obvious anti-Rossi agenda on this list is getting absolutely disgusting. To address one issue, there is a very simple explanation of why Rossi did not pay the University of Bologna. Simply put, he is devoting all of his time, energy, and most likely FINANCIAL RESOURCES on the factory that will produce the one million home units. The fact is the University of Bologna testing has never been a huge priority of Rossi's. It has been a side issue. His number one goal is getting this technology into the market place. To do that, he needs to focus all of his effort and resources towards that. If Rossi had to decide between testing at the University of Bologna and having more money to devote to the factory for the home E-Cat units, I think he made the best decision. He really does not need the University of Bologna. What he needs he already has the customer (US military) and National Instruments to help with his control systems. The fact he did not pay the University of Bologna does not mean he is broke or is a fraud. It means that he is re-directing his resources towards what matters most. PUTTING ONE MILLION E-CATS ON THE MARKET
Re: [Vo]:I wish Krivit would come out of the closet pertaining to the WL theory
Krivit has doomed his career by his attacks on Rossi and his constant push to support Widom Larsen theory.The fact is Andrea Rossi has proven beyond any reasonable doubt that his Ni-H technology works as claimed. When Rossi's home E-Cat units start going on the market, Krivit is going to have to live with the fact he openly bashed a Nobel Prize winner, and an international hero. I think it's obvious that Krivit's support of Widom Larsen theory goes far beyond being a fan. I think many people wonder if he has some financial connection to Widom Larsen theory. From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net To: Vortex vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 10:58 PM Subject: [Vo]:I wish Krivit would come out of the closet pertaining to the WL theory I just received another email alert from New Energy Times. The content of the email states: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Where Does the Energy Come From in LENR? I received a question from a New Energy Times reader a few days ago: What exactly is causing the energy to be produced in the LENR reaction according to the Widom-Larsen theory? Is it energy produced due to the transmutation of elements, or something else entirely? Click here to go to the article * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * I wish Mr. Krivit would just come out of the closet and state for the record what kind of a relationship he has established with the Widom-Larsen camp is. There is absolutely nothing wrong with advocating for a particular group, cause, or theory. For example, the Pure Energy Systems web site makes it very clear that they have established a working business relationship with Andrea Rossi. PESN states: Full Disclosure: PES Network has a business relationship with Andrea Rossi. Readers can then take such “disclosures” into account when they read information posted at such web sites. Often, the information posted, slanted it may be, can still be high quality. There is also the implication that such web sites may also have firsthand knowledge pertaining to their favorite subject that may not necessarily be available to the rest of the population or news sources. IOW, there can be advantages to making it clear to readers that such web sites have established themselves as an advocate outlet. However, Krivit seems to be attempting to give readers the impression that NET is an impartial news service. To that end I suspect there are few within the Vort Collective that perceive NET as behaving as if it’s an impartial news service, particularly when it comes to “cold fusion” news. Krivit has relentlessly promoted the Widom-Laren theory above all other theories. The fact that Krivit supports the Widom-Larsen theory doesn’t bother me. Why shouldn’t the Widom-Larsen camp have a few supporters of their own, advertising the theory’s alleged advantages. What bothers me is that apparently in order to enhance the perceived credibility of the Widom-Larsen theory Krivit has felt the need to attack the credentials of prominent CF researchers who are not in the Widom-Larsen camp. Krivit has also attacked Andrea Rossi, claiming the Italian inventor is a fraud. Some of the evidence Krivit recently presented in regards to Rossi was incredibly shoddy, such as when Krivit quoted verbatim a conversation he had with Rossi last year when he personally visited him. Krivit quoted Rossi’s halting English speech patterns verbatim in an attempt to insinuate to gullible readers that the Italian lacks clarity in his thinking processes. That was an incredibly stupid thing for Krivit to have posted out on NET. It really drove home to me what lengths Krivit was willing to go to in order to find fault in those he perceives as the opposition, or perhaps even as the enemy. Meanwhile, Krivit has claimed that he would stop promoting the widom-larsen theory if he learned of new information that would suggest there is a better theory out there. However, based on the fact that Krivit has refused to listen to advice from credible experts who have serious reservations about the Widom-Larsen theory, and the fact that Krivit was willing to perform incredibly cheap posting theatrics to make others, like Rossi, look feeble minded, I don’t believe Krivit’s sincerity one bit. Not one bit at all. I just wish Krivit would simply come out of the closet state for the record what is obvious to everyone else. It’s blatantly obvious to everyone that Krivit believes the Widom-Larsen theory is a really neat theory. It’s obvious that Krivit wants his readers to give the Widom-Larsen folks more of their time and energy studying the theory’s alleged merits. I’m sure Krivit would probably get a lot of W-L sympathizers willing to delve into its alleged advantages. I can live with that. Why can’t Krivit? Who
Re: [Vo]:video from NASA about lenr (cold fusion)
I find it disgusting how NASA is spewing W L propaganda. Of course it is the logical theory to adopt, since the last thing NASA would ever want to do is admit that cold fusion is real. They would rather say little gray aliens are providing the power, than to admit fusion is taking place. They sure are pathetic!
[Vo]:Carbon as a Catalyst: What has NASA stated?
Does anyone know why NASA mentioned carbon along with nickel and hydrogen? Is NASA proposing the use of carbon as a catalyst? Have any of these scientists went into any greater detail?
Re: [Vo]:Government Scientists More Efficient at Splitting Hydrogen
All of those big government scientists should be de-funded. Especially all the hot fusion scientists -- every last one! Unfortunately, the Tea Party has been corrupted by liberal leaning individuals who want to keep spending tax dollars unconstitutionally, on projects the government has no business being involved in. If we really wanted scientific progress to accelerate in the energy field, we would reduce govt by eliminating subsidies to all energy producers, including big oil. With a true free market (not croney capitalism that bailsout banks and automakers) alternative energy technologies would thrive. I'm looking forward to when the R evol UTION wins the White House, and cuts a trillion dollars in ONE YEAR. The only aspect of the govt that in my opinion is constitutionally authorized to research cold fusion or hydrogen technology is the military, as part of a national defense (not a national offense). From: Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 3:38 PM Subject: [Vo]:Government Scientists More Efficient at Splitting Hydrogen Jan 2 Article on Cleantechnica http://cleantechnica.com/2012/01/02/government-scientists-more-efficient-at-splitting-hydrogen/ Looks like Argonne scientists are keeping up with Ni-H [snip] The new catalyst combination drove the reaction at ten times the previous rate, saving both energy and money. Chalk one up for those “Big Government” scientists – who this year escaped narrowly escaped defunding by the Tea Party/GOP. [/snip] Fran
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:A competent observer's assessment of Defkalion - Revisited
I agree. I want more information. As I see it right now, we have zero proof that they have built any working reactor cores themselves. I think it is likely that a long time ago Rossi loaned them a few cores to test, but I do not know if they have built a working, practical cold fusion system. If they want anyone to take them seriously, they need to show some real test results. Then they need to show evidence they are using their own technology, and are not simply using Rossi's without his permission. From: Robert Leguillon robert.leguil...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 3:06 PM Subject: [Vo]:A competent observer's assessment of Defkalion - Revisited Now that the holidays are winding to a close, is there any update on the Defkalion visit? Any rough approximation as to when information may be forthcoming?
[Vo]:Anyone have the paper A. Carnera, S. Focardi, A. Rossi, to be published on Arxiv?
Does anyone know where the following paper can be located? A. Carnera, S. Focardi, A. Rossi, to be published on Arxiv It is referenced in the following paper. http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=53 I think it is a paper that Arxiv rejected. I think the paper would be very interesting to read.
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion described how they got Rossi's formula
So where is the data obtained from the mass spec data taken by U. Padua? Is it in the paper, A. Carnera, S. Focardi, A. Rossi, to be published on Arxiv From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2012 7:04 PM Subject: [Vo]:Defkalion described how they got Rossi's formula Here is an article published in November: Defkalion: 'We have Rossi’s formula' http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3353181.ece I should have paid closer attention to this. In this article, Xanthoulis says they got the formula from mass spec data taken by U. Padua. I think the data is here, in a paper linked to this article: http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3358646.ece/BINARY/Rossi-Focardi_paper.pdf They say they did not directly examine powder from Rossi. Assuming that is true, I think their work would be considered developed independently, like a PC compatible BIOS in 1980. They still have to pay royalties in the event Rossi gets a patent, but it would not be theft of intellectual property. In the early 1980s companies developed BIOS's with groups of programmers who had never seen IBM's source code or program notes. They developed it by observing program behavior. As I recall, BIOS was protected only by copyrights back then, not patents, so an independently developed version was free and clear. As I said, with a patent they would need to pay royalties no matter what, even if you independently discover something. When Ford tried to develop a hybrid car, they kept running into Toyota's patents for the Prius, and in the end decided to license them. This article also describes Defkalion's version of the issue that led to a falling out with Rossi: According to Xanthoulis, Rossi could not run the reaction more than 24 hours, and when Defkalion required a 48 hour test it supposedly led to a conflict with Rossi. 'It’s very simple but they didn’t think about it. (...) We solved the problem. Because the problem is that he cannot spread the reaction all over the pipe, and all the heating is concentrated in the middle', Xanthoulis told Ny Teknik. I took a second look at this article because I was surprised by this statement in the recent Wired UK article, and I am trying track it down: However, Defkalion spokesman Alexandros Xanthoulis told Swedish science magazine NyTeknik that they know exactly what the catalyst is. In a piece of subterfuge, a spectroscopic examination was carried out on an E-Cat being while it was being tested without Rossi's knowledge. However, to maintain 'fair play', Defkalion's scientists say they developed their technology without using this information. I still do not know what this refers to. The tests at U. Padua were conducted with Rossi's knowledge. Perhaps this is a misinterpretation. If there was subterfuge, it is no wonder Rossi is upset. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Miley and other professors can only take money from official sources
What the heck is stopping someone from taking private money and doing research in their basement? From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 2:14 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Miley and other professors can only take money from official sources Mary Yugo wrote: By the way, why don't you contact Jed personally about his experience with Defkalion and trying to arrange a visit with them. There is nothing to be said about that. It was delayed and delayed, and it appears to have petered out. Delays, confusion and cancellations are not unusual with start-up companies. You cannot draw any conclusions from that sort of thing. No doubt they have more pressing matters to deal with, and higher priorities than a visit by me. What is disturbing about Defkalion is their dispute with Stremmenos. I do not know what to make of that. It is a public relations disaster. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Private information about Rossi was the Ampernergo tests described by McKubre
Can you describe the first test that is left out of the PDF file? How many slides were you not allowed to post? From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Private information about Rossi was the Ampernergo tests described by McKubre Mary Yugo wrote: No, the data shown by McKubre is not hearsay or secondhand. It is from Ampenergo. And I say again: Ampenergo is Rossi's N. American distributor and has done and showed nothing As I noted, they were not the distributors when these tests were done. They have done something -- these tests -- and they showed them to a limited audience, including McKubre and me. Regrettably, they have not granted me permission to upload the other screens with more details. I do not know why. All I can say about that is the old British expression: 'tis a pity! You don't know why? No, and neither do you. Could it be because, like is probable about Levi's experiment, they would not stand up to close and proper scrutiny . . . No, that is not the reason. The test was done under the scrutiny of experts, as McKubre noted. Please stop asking questions that have already been answered. If you don't like my answers, feel free to ignore them, but do not confuse the issue by asking the same thing or making the same points repeatedly. Let's drop the subject. - Jed
Re: Aw: [Vo]:God Revealed Tomorrow?
Of course they are not like Rossi. They have not designed a paradigm shifting technology. Instead, they are just searching for some particle, with no idea of how to make it into a technology. By the way, Rossi has tested his device over and over again. He is satisfied the technology works and the US military is too. From: peter.heck...@arcor.de peter.heck...@arcor.de To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 1:57 AM Subject: Aw: [Vo]:God Revealed Tomorrow? So far I have read, they got strong evidence, but not this high evidence that is needed for such a fundamental discovery. They are not like Rossi. They will test it again and again and doubt and harden it by all possible methods, before they confirm it. Scientific evidence is yet not reached. - Original Nachricht Von: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 13.12.2011 00:50 Betreff: [Vo]:God Revealed Tomorrow? Has the 'God Particle' Been Found? Major Announcement Expected Tuesday Published December 12, 2011 CERN A proton-proton collision at the Large Hadron Collider particle accelerator at CERN laboratory in Geneva that produced more than 100 charged particles. The world of physics is abuzz with speculation over an announcement expected Tuesday, Dec. 13, from the CERN laboratory in Geneva -- home of the world's largest particle accelerator, the Large Hadron Collider (LHC). The announcement, planned for 8 a.m. EST (2 p.m. CET), will address the status of the search for the elusive Higgs boson particle, sometimes called the God Particle because of its importance to science. Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/12/12/has-god-particle-been-found-major- announcement-expected-tuesday/#ixzz1gMqOkd19
Re: [Vo]:Cold Fusion Economic Effects
I am all for vertical agriculture, but I am totally opposed to a global basic income. I do not support socialism or communism. With cold fusion technology, the price of everything will go down. Even a job at McDonalds will be capable of paying for a nice house, nice cars, etc. We can have a world in which there is almost no poverty, without a global basic income. From: Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 2:10 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Cold Fusion Economic Effects Cold fusion will solve every major global problems. And they can be defined with two words: For environmental problems: _vertical agriculture_ For political problems: _global basic income_ And ALL known political, economical and environmental problems are solved and we live in the age of Star Trek more than 100 years earlier than in Star Trek time line. We could do this already without cold fusion, but I would say that people are slow, so they need a little push. Cold fusion will render anyway all conventional thinking useless. Therefore with cold fusion new ideas are easier to accept. —Jouni
Re: [Vo]:Cold Fusion Economic Effects
I can't wait until the cost of everything has went down dramatically. I think combining cold fusion with robotics and nanotechnology could allow us to end up in a world where there is no such thing as scarcity. Everything could be dirt cheap, and a simple part-time job would allow someone to live in a nice house, have nice cars, etc. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Cold Fusion Economic Effects The Internet has improved efficiency in a wide range of industries, such as grocery store inventory. Has it had a deflationary effect on these industries? I do not know. It has deflated goods and services directly produced by the Internet itself, such as publishing books. Amazon Kindle books are much cheaper than printed ones. But has it reduced the cost of carrots? Hard to say. Energy has a direct impact on the cost of even more goods and services than the Internet does, so I suppose cold fusion might be deflationary across the board. One way of describing a deflationary effect is to say it improves productivity. I think those are two sides of the same coin. - Jed
[Vo]:Cold Fusion and the 2012 Election Cycle
I think the election cycle this year is going to be very interesting. Actually, I think it will be more exciting than ever before! With the US military satisfied the Rossi technology works, purchasing thirteen systems, and helping with R and D, I think the politicians are bound to be told about the reality of cold fusion sooner rather than later. What do you think the politicians will say about cold fusion? I think there is going to be a big debate, due to all of the implications of cold fusion. For example, the impact on the energy crisis, the economy, the middle east, etc. Here are a few thoughts of mine. -- Cold fusion technology will make politicians who wasted money on conventional alternative energy technologies look stupid. -- Cold fusion will make politicians who supported free market solutions to the energy crisis gain support. -- Cold fusion will make politicians who support a continual presence in the Middle East look bad. -- Cold fusion will make fake environmentalists -- who will not support cold fusion -- look bad. -- Cold fusion will make there be no need for carbon taxes. -- Cold fusion will make politicians who support globalism look bad, because the E-Cat technology can make all nations much more independent. No nation will ever need to depend on another nation for energy. -- Cold fusion will make politicians who support hot fusion research look bad.
Re: [Vo]:Congress cuts the Gordian knot of aviation patents in 1917
A tax on cold fusion devices? The last thing we need is another tax! Our government wastes billions of dollars as it is. They could save billions by ending hot fusion research, and bringing our troops home from around the world. The ITER needs to be abolished. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 5:10 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Congress cuts the Gordian knot of aviation patents in 1917 Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: But you're not proposing a solution within a moral framework. You're advocating that people take money from those who may not want to give it . . . In that case it should come from a temporary tax on the sale of cold fusion devices. A royalty, in other words. Taxation is theft because it sits outside of any moral framework . . . I do not think so but that is beyond the scope of the discussion. Wrong forum. I fully support their claims to intellectual property, but that's where the battle should be fought. It has been fought and lost there already, thanks to the U.S.P.O., the DoE and others. Experts tell me it is too late for anyone to get a patent for cold fusion, probably including Rossi. Some other equitable and pragmatic solution should be found. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Congress cuts the Gordian knot of aviation patents in 1917
I think what we need to do is convince the world that the E-Cat works, and then promote a peaceful uprising of the people to force the patent office to grand Rossi's patents. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 4:50 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Congress cuts the Gordian knot of aviation patents in 1917 Robert Leguillon robert.leguil...@hotmail.com wrote: Due to the international nature of these patents, what do you predict today? I know little about patents. My only prediction is that the people who deserve a patent for the basic invention of cold fusion will not get one. Cold fusion is essentially in the public domain. That is what intellectual property experts have told me. Would LENR be coopted by the IAEA or UN? Would there be a declaration of energy as a human right, and thus richer countries subsidizing the energy needs of poorer nations? I do not think that will be necessary. Cold fusion devices will be so cheap that even people in the Third World will be able to purchase them, just as they purchase automobiles and bicycles today. They also purchase large amounts of kerosene for illumination. If they stop spending money on kerosene and gasoline for automobiles and motorcycles, there will be plenty of money left over for them to buy cold fusion devices instead. They pay much more for kerosene per liter than we do. They pay thousands of times more per lumen for lighting than we do. I predict this problem will solve itself. However, the tangle of intellectual property and the injustice against people such as Fleischmann will not be solved except with deliberate government action. Governments and big industry caused this problem in the first place by ignoring cold fusion for 22 years despite conclusive evidence that it exists and it is a potential source of energy. They caused the problem; let them fix it. As for how the US citizens might pay our share of this, the amount of money we will save by abolishing the Department of Energy and bankrupting Exxon will easily pay for it. The money we will save in a single day will pay for it. The 20,000 lives we save per year by closing down the coal industry will pay for it hundreds of times over. Add in the benefits from bankrupting Iran and reducing military threats in the Middle East and the cost of compensating Fleischmann et al. becomes a rounding-off error. Bankrupting Saudi Arabia will probably not have any direct benefits for us other than schadenfreude. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Congress cuts the Gordian knot of aviation patents in 1917
I don't agree with the government using tax dollars to pay cold fusion inventors. In my opinion, the government needs to be forced (peacefully) to grant Rossi's patent. When the government tries to fix a problem they helped create, 9 out of 10 times they make it worse. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Congress cuts the Gordian knot of aviation patents in 1917 Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 2011-11-29 at 16:01 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: Someone here suggested that the best solution to this problem would be for governments to throw a large pile of money that everyone involved in the initial development of cold fusion. I think that would probably be a good idea. I hope that Fleischmann and Pons get a large chunk of it. Rossi deserves a lot too. Many people do. When we start talking about morality, I feel a need to step in... It's not good to take money from people who do not want to give it up, even if someone has a 'noble' way in which to use it. If you are I did this, it would be called theft. I do not understand this argument. Fleischmann, Pons, Rossi and many others have intellectual property rights. They invented cold fusion. They deserve a patent just like any other inventors. History and circumstances probably will deny them this patent, so they deserve compensation. This problem was primarily caused by the Patent Office, but many other institutions such as the Department of Energy and the Washington Post contributed to the morass. Blame cannot be assigned to any single person or institution. Rather than argue about this for years and rather than spend hundreds of millions of dollars on legal fees, it would make sense to sweep aside the arguments, give people what they deserve, and proceed with industrial production of cold fusion devices. The total amount of royalties paid will be trivial compared to the benefits to society. Cold fusion is likely save billions of dollars every day worldwide, and 50,000 lives per week. Paying a few billion dollars to Fleischmann, Pons, Rossi and others would be trivial fraction of this. And to take money from people to give to those working in one of the largest pent-up markets in history, is just adding insult to injury. I am not talking about getting anyone to people who be working on cold fusion in the near future. They will learn plenty from the market. I'm talking about diverting a tiny fraction of this to pay the people who invented the technology. Normally they would be granted a patent a paid by that mechanism. Fleischmann is not working on anything. He is old and suffering from a fatal disease. He got nothing for his efforts in cold fusion. Neither did any of the other pioneers. They are mostly old or dead. All they got was 22 years of grief and opprobrium. These people or their survivors deserve something. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Leonardo Corporation is a Paper Company
The fact Rossi is telling the truth is clear and obvious at this point. Your irrational skepticism is what is mysterious. When the E-Cat technology is powering the world I hope you will reveal your true identity, and admit to the fact you trolled forums across the net trying to attack it. Of course you won't, because your not decent enough to do that. From: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 2:41 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Leonardo Corporation is a Paper Company On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: You don't know and I don't know. I hope we agree that you don't know and I don't know is not support for the idea that Rossi is telling the truth. Otherwise, I will have to bring back my unicorn example again.
Re: [Vo]:bit.ly/cold-fusion
In my opinion, Piantelli's work is meaningless. He was not able to do anything with Ni-H fusion. Piantelli is like a person who discovers heavy crude oil. Andrea Rossi is the person who was able to refine it into high grade jet fuel, and use it to power an aircraft. Anyone who thinks that Piantelli owns the rights to Rossi's technology, must also believe that the individuals who discovered the transistor back in 1947 now own the rights to all high end personal computers. It is simply insane. From: Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 4:32 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:bit.ly/cold-fusion Dear Bastiaan, It is better, however facts are are facts and truth is truth, and priority is... you can guess it...priority! FYI- BRIEF HISTORY CHRONOLOGY OF Ni-H LENR - 16 August 1989. Francesco Piantelli at the Department of Physics of the Universityof Siena, accidentally discovers the phenomenon of Ni-H while working on a project of Biophysics;the effect of hydrogen on gangliosides on a support of Ni lamina - From December 1989 and January 1990. In the Physics dep. the phenomenon is replicated with the construction of the first cell; - Between January and June 1990. The phenomenon is repeated for two times; - October 1990. Meeting of Piantelli with R. Habel and S.Focardi at the S.I.F.National Congress of Physics held in Trento; start of collaboration, - 1991-1992 First experiment from the collaboration with the two Italian physicists; - 1993 At the FisiocriticiAcademyin Sienais made of the first publication about the work of 1990 under the sole name of Piantelli; The paper is: F. Piantelli -Anornalous Energy Production in Experirnents with H and D Isotopes adsorbed in particular metallic Lattice, Atti Acc. Fis. Serie XV-Tomo XII -(1993) - 1994 Completions of the Piantelli-Habel-Focardi experiment published at Nuovo Cimento; - 1994 R. Habel stops the collaboration; etc., etc. Please take in account that almost all experiments for anomalous heat were done at Siena U. Bologna was focused on the analytical side. As an aside, please let me know how do you interpret Focardi's declaration that he does not know what Rossi's catayst is. Best wishes, Peter On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 1:17 AM, Bastiaan Bergman bastiaan.berg...@gmail.com wrote: All, Thanks for your input, I updated the paper to incorporate most of your comments. @Aussie Thanks; @Peter I maintain that Rossi forced the current big breakthrough, whether it is just an additive or not. I agree with you that it is fair to mention Piantelli and Focardi as founders and completely revised that section to include it. @Rich I believe I did pay a fair amount of attention to the critics. I summarized all point is the paragraph What the critics say and more in the paragraph about Rossi. I think the critique you summarize is equally valid for super-conduction. Any paper in professional literature can be found to lack of common sense on some points and short of some additional measurement that could have been done on others, once scrutinized by an army of skeptics. However, the sum of the work done by many independent laboratories using a variety of different approaches shows, without doubt, a pattern that is difficult to reject as pathological science. Small government funding for further investigation is well warranted. No point to criticize something that doesn't exist, if you don't like it, ignore it. But I do like your contributions Rich:-) @Alain I feel as if I missed something, about CF or about humanity - Exactly! What is going on? I feel like Truman in one of your human systems experiments ;-) @Robin I was a bit overly optimistic with the energy density, corrected it. 3 cubic mile oil - equivalents is our energy consumption, this includes coal and uranium (and renewables). 1 CMO is oil alone. I corrected it anyway, no point overstating that. Thanks for pointing this out, it's not worth getting caught on. Some (early version of?) H-bombs use multiple fission bombs, not all, and maybe none of the modern ones. It doesn't really matter, I feel like I have to underline the dirtiness of this business anyway. Intriguing in this regard I find the new studies that point out that there is very little evidence of the fusion part of these bombs contributing significantly to the power. Intriguing because the inventor of the H-bomb is a prominent cold-fusion skeptic, citing the lack of evidence... Hydrogen atoms do not repel each other. Naked protons repel each other. That's why hot fusion is so difficult - they insist on using naked protons. - I agree. For sake of simplicity I skipped over it. And technically it isn't wrong. Atoms attract at some length scales, but not at all. That's why hydrogen does form molecules but doesn't fuse just like that. I don't like the emphasis some people put on the stripping off of electrons, as if that's a big deal in the
Re: [Vo]:Lattice Energy LLC comments on Rossi
This guy is obviously very desperate.
I think Larsen is jealous that Rossi has been able to build practical cold
fusion systems, and he has not.
He is so desperate he has Krivit helping him attack those who do not support
his theory.
When the E-Cat technology is powering the world, Larsen and Krivit will need to
change careers. I hear truck driving can give you plenty of time to think about
your life.
From: Rich Murray rmfor...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; Rich Murray rmfor...@gmail.com; Rich Murray
rmfor...@comcast.net; yogendra.srivast...@gmail.com
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 12:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Lattice Energy LLC comments on Rossi
A primer for electroweak induced low-energy nuclear reactions,
Srivastava, Widom, Larsen 2010 October: Rich Murray 2011.11.26
Reedited for clarity -- also helps me integrate the many ideas...
Three ring circus !
What does Hagelstein think?
Is neutron production via spark exploded wires reported by many
independent labs?
How hard would this be for amateurs?
Could tiny experiments generate neutrons at low costs and high safety?
What would happen if a wire was embedded in a diamond anvil hyper
pressure cell and spark exploded?
http://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v75/p617/fulltext.pdf
A primer for electroweak induced low-energy nuclear reactions
Y N SRIVASTAVA 1;¤, A WIDOM 2 and L LARSEN 3
1 Dipartimento di Fisica INFN, Universitµa degli Studi di Perugia,
06123 Perugia, Italy
2 Physics Department, Northeastern University, Boston, MA 02115, USA
3 Lattice Energy LLC, 175 North Harbor Drive, Chicago, IL 60601,
USA¤Corresponding author. E-mail: yogendra.srivast...@gmail.com
MS received 28 January 2010; revised 9 May 2010; accepted 21 May 2010
Abstract.
Under special circumstances, electromagnetic and weak interactions can
induce low-energy nuclear reactions to occur with observable rates for
a variety of processes.
A common element in all these applications is that the electromagnetic
energy stored in many relatively slow-moving electrons can ( under
appropriate circumstances ) be collectively transferred into fewer,
much faster electrons withenergies sufficient for the latter to
combine with protons (or deuterons, if present) to produce neutrons
via weak inter-actions.
The produced neutrons can then initiate low-energy nuclear reactions
through further nuclear transmutations.
The aim of this paper is to extend and enlarge upon various examples
analysed previously, present order of magnitude estimates for each and
to illuminate a common unifying theme amongst all of them.
Keywords. Nuclear transmutations; low-energy nuclear reaction; electroweak.
...6. Summary and concluding remarks
We can summarize by saying that three seemingly diverse physical
phenomena, viz., metallic hydride cells, exploding wires and the solar
corona, do have a unifying theme.
Under appropriate conditions which we have now well delineated, in all
these processes electromagnetic energy gets collectively harnessed to
provide enough kinetic energy to a certain fraction of the electrons
to combine with protons(or any other ions present) and produce
neutrons through weak interactions.
The produced neutrons then combine with other nuclei to induce
low-energy nuclear reactions and transmutations.
Lest it escape notice let us remind the reader that all three
interactions of the Standard Model (electromagnetic, weak and nuclear)
are essential for an understanding of these phenomena.
Collective effects, but no new physics for the acceleration of
electrons beyond the Standard Model needs to be invoked. We have seen,
however, that certain paradigm shifts are necessary.
On the surface of a metallic hydride cell with surface plasmon
polariton modes, protons collectively oscillate along with the
electrons.
Hence, the Born-Oppenheimer approximation (which assumes that the
proton is rigidly fixed) breaks down andshould not be employed.
Similarly, in the solar corona, the electronic density and the
electrical conductivity are sufficiently low.
Hence there is not much charge screening of the electric fields involved.
Strong electric fields generated by time-dependent magnetic fields
through Faraday's laws are sustained in the corona, and the betatron
(or transformer) mechanism remains functional.
Were it not so, electrons and protons could not have been accelerated
to hundreds of GeVs and there would have been no production of
high-energy muons, certainly not copious enough
Pramana { J. Phys., Vol. 75, No. 4, October 2010 635
to have reached Earth in sufficient numbers to have been observed by
the L3+C collaboration at LEP [23] or by the BAKSAN underground
laboratory [47].
We are unaware of any other alternative scheme for obtaining this result.
The betatron mechanism also naturally explains a variety of observed
experimental results such as unexpected nuclear transmutations and
high-energy cosmic rays from the exterior of the Sun or any other
astronomical object
Re: [Vo]:E-Cats and 450 deg C steam
I think this is very good news. If he can create electricity even moderately efficiently, this technology is going to change the world -- BIG TIME! The big cost difference between E-Cat technology and conventional technologies will of course be the fuel cost. The fuel cost for a one megawatt cold fusion planet will probably be at least 1/1000 times less than one powered by coal or natural gas. From: Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 10:46 PM Subject: [Vo]:E-Cats and 450 deg C steam Very interesting news: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510cpage=35#comment-130799 Andrea Rossi: Actually, we have found a breakthrough with a primary fluid with which the reactors remain stable when we make steam at 450 Celsius. Italo A. Albanese: Did you get 450 Celsius from just one e-cat or from many of them connected in series? Andrea Rossi: 4 in series I feel this implies Rossi is: 1) using a primary fluid to achieve over 450 deg C by connection 4 E-Cats in series and then feeding the heated primary fluid (diathermic oil?) into a steam generator similar but smaller to those used in Nuclear reactors. 2) saying the 4 series connected E-Cats themselves created steam at 450 deg C and the primary fluid statement applies to a fluid that surrounds the 3 internal reactors (which in the past was assumed to be molten lead). AG
[Vo]:US Military E-Cat Purchase -- Tracking Down Details
I would like to start this thread as a place where details about the deal between the US military and Andrea Rossi can be discussed. In my opinion, it is a very big deal that a very experienced engineer not only validated the technology on Oct. 28th, but now the military is purchasing an additional thirteen plants. We also have the news that due to the help of the engineer that conducted the test on the 28th (he was a consultant to the US military), the reactors can remain stable while producing steam at a temperature of 450 degrees. If we could get rock solid verification of this (in my opinion there is no doubt it is true) we could stick it in front of the mainstream media's face, and they would be forced to report about it. My understanding so far (from what I have read online) is that the Naval Research Laboratory is testing the E-Cat plants via a contractor. What do all of you think? How can we go about finding more details? Would a FOIA request be useful? The way I see it, if the military purchased the units with tax dollars, the public has a right to know what is going on.
[Vo]:To Aussie Guy - Please request a control E-Cat to be used!
Hello, Congrats on being able to test an E-Cat. I would like to request that you utilize two, single modules in the test. One with hydrogen, and another without hydrogen. The one with no hydrogen would be the control. You would input electrical power into the control just like you would the normal E-Cat. However, without hydrogen after the input is turned off the output should drop, but the actual E-Cat should keep producing output power. This is the test that would destroy the ridiculous argument about thermal inertia and thermal flywheel. This is the test that would shut up many of the cynics, and bring some of the honest skeptics off the fence. Please perform this test in addition to the ordinary calorimeter test. Thanks.
Re: [Vo]:Help in testing a E-Cat
Please ask for two E-Cats to be tested. One with hydrogen and one without hydrogen. In all the tests that have been done so far, there has not been a control used. A test with a control would blow away the thermal inertia hypothesis. It would also confirm beyond a doubt that the E-Cat with hydrogen is producing excess energy. From: Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 2:08 AM Subject: [Vo]:Help in testing a E-Cat I have just emailed Rossi with my interest in purchasing a 100 kW E-Cat plant. I do thank Vortex members (on the forum and privately) for providing the behind the scenes insight into the history of LENR that helped to make this decision happen. My bags are ready to be packed, funds locked down and I'm ready to fly to Bologna to see and test a E-Cat reactor. What I didn't know or were a bit rusty about in measuring a E-Cat has been provided by the excellent Vortex forum. My intention is to pay the funds into a Escrow account, request a test of a single E-Cat and if that is found to be OK, to proceed to pre delivery testing the 100 kW plant. Failure of either test to meet a min COP 6 result would trigger the return of all my Escrowed funds. I would appreciate suggestions as to the necessary equipment (manuf and model) you would suggest I would need to make the initial single E-Cat test measurements. I do have many thermocouples and DVMs with temp ranges but no flow meters. Does anybody know the manuf and model of the heat exchanger used in the 6 Oct demo as I plan to use that setup to do the delta T measurements. I do plan on taking a 16 channel data logger and digital oscilloscope (both battery powered) to check the input energy in ALL the wires going into the E-Cat. From what I have read here, the 2 temp probes should be inserted through the wall of the water hose feeding the heat exchanges enough so they are approx central to the water flow, while not touching the inside wall of the water hose and likewise for the outlet water hose. Is a 45 deg insertion angle acceptable? AG
Re: [Vo]:Clarifications from Brian Ahern
He is very jealous. From what I hear, he has only been able to produce small amounts of output (perhaps 10-50 watts). Rossi has produced a technology that generates huge amounts of output. Rossi once stated that a 50cc reactor core has a maximum safe output of 10 kilowatts. The problem with the Rossi tech is not producing enough heat, it is not producing too much! There are a bunch of competitors going around bad mouthing Rossi right now. They may have a right to criticize his business practices, but they have no right to criticize his technology. No one has produced a cold fusion technology that produces anywhere close as much output. Also, I wonder why he is wanting Rossi to share so much information. I wonder if he had a technology that could produce 10 kW from a 50cc reactor if he would share much information. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 4:43 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Clarifications from Brian Ahern Someone pointed out to me that Ahern has been posting incendiary comments to Krivit's blog, such as this one, in which he loses the argument, according to Goodwin's Law; a.k.a. Reductio ad Hitlerum: This criticism of Rossi is far to leient. He is making his beggest claim yet with no back up data whatsoever! Hitler got away with the big lie by deftly mixing in some small amount of truth. Rossi doesn’t seem to need to mix in even small amounts of truth any longer. I expect Ahern is jealous. He knows perfectly well that Rossi has real heat. He is pretty stupid posting baseless accusations. Ahern does not like Rossi personally. That is his business. I do not think it is wise to plaster your private dislikes all over the Internet. Who cares whether you like someone or not? Ahern should not let his feelings interfere with a technical evaluation. People betting against Rossi are playing a losing hand. Ahern should know that, based on his own results. Anyway, I quoted his message to me. He has said that many times. He has also often claimed that Rossi is a fraud and so on. Apparently he thinks the heat is real but exaggerated, and even though Rossi has a real effect, he is a fraud. That seems unlikely to me. It seems irrational. I suppose most of the scientists attacking Rossi are jealous. That is not surprising. He is miles ahead of them. Academic scientists are prone to hissy fits. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Clarifications from Brian Ahern
I think that there are a group of competitors that are working together to try and bash Rossi, so they can slow down the commercialization of the E-Cat until they can make their systems produce 1/10th as much output. For the time being they are putting aside their differences. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Clarifications from Brian Ahern Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Krivit claimed that a few days ago. It was the topic of one of his blog posts, I think. Ah. Well, he did not ask Ahern. Brian always speaks his mind. He is quite clear about this issue. I can't imagine where Krivit got his information. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Gain from the cold side
I agree that hot fusion was the biggest boondoggle of the 21st century. Cold fusion is going to make everyone realize how the mainstream scientific community kept us in the dark ages. From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 2:28 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Gain from the cold side On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: As for the scammed investors: fools and their money will always be parted – with or without our help. Rossi represents chump-change compared to Enron or Madoff – or especially the hot fusion swindle. Hah! If you look at the real cost of the hot fusion swindle you have to consider the consequential costs. Had MIT correctly reported their positive results at the time, we could be will within a LENR energy society. And it's not just the dollars but the cost in human lives, the wars fought over oil, and on and on. Future history will condemn those who perpetrated and participated in this swindle. If there is a future history. T
Re: [Vo]:Clarifications from Brian Ahern
I think the answer is simple. He is jealous. In one breath he claims that Rossi is producing excess heat and wants him to share information. Next, he is making skeptical remarks. It makes it clear to me that he wishes he could produce the same output Rossi can. So instead of admitting that, he attacks Rossi. From: Robert Leguillon robert.leguil...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 5:43 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Clarifications from Brian Ahern Jed, You claimed previously that you didn't know of any smart people that disagreed on the results of Rossi's demos (a swipe at all of the remaining vortex contrarians). Obviously you respect Ahern's technical abilities. So, now that Ahern is claiming excess power with Ni-H, but doubting Rossi's claims, could you ask him why he doubts the demonstrations? Maybe he has some new revelations? Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:43:08 -0500 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Clarifications from Brian Ahern From: jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Someone pointed out to me that Ahern has been posting incendiary comments to Krivit's blog, such as this one, in which he loses the argument, according to Goodwin's Law; a.k.a. Reductio ad Hitlerum: This criticism of Rossi is far to leient. He is making his beggest claim yet with no back up data whatsoever! Hitler got away with the big lie by deftly mixing in some small amount of truth. Rossi doesn’t seem to need to mix in even small amounts of truth any longer. I expect Ahern is jealous. He knows perfectly well that Rossi has real heat. He is pretty stupid posting baseless accusations. Ahern does not like Rossi personally. That is his business. I do not think it is wise to plaster your private dislikes all over the Internet. Who cares whether you like someone or not? Ahern should not let his feelings interfere with a technical evaluation. People betting against Rossi are playing a losing hand. Ahern should know that, based on his own results. Anyway, I quoted his message to me. He has said that many times. He has also often claimed that Rossi is a fraud and so on. Apparently he thinks the heat is real but exaggerated, and even though Rossi has a real effect, he is a fraud. That seems unlikely to me. It seems irrational. I suppose most of the scientists attacking Rossi are jealous. That is not surprising. He is miles ahead of them. Academic scientists are prone to hissy fits. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:more speculations on break-up
From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:more speculations on break-up pca pierre.carbonne...@gmail.com wrote: Deploying one, let alone millions, of Hyperion units in unsecured places gives plenty of opportunity for competitors to acquire the device and reverse engineer its secret. Defkalion's attempts to add security within the Hyperions are not credible. It's much better for Rossi to have licencee(s) build a few large electricity-generating units in well-garded places, and sell the electricity to resellers. The strategy would not work, and it would not be allowed. It would not work because security by obscurity for such a momentous discovery would never last. Someone would reveal the secret, or steal a sample of material and reverse engineer it. It would work better than having thousands of reactors all over the place. I agree it would not work for very long. If you wanted to keep the secret for as long as possible, having a few large reactors is better than having thousands of small ones all over the place. It would not be allowed because no first-world nation will permit people to build a nuclear reactor without first fully explaining how it works, and without having hundreds of experts at national laboratories, universities and elsewhere examine the devices to make certain the are safe. It would be allowed and will be allowed. First of all, very few in the mainstream scientific world or government thinks cold fusion is real. If the NRC came knocking on the door asking what you were doing with a bunch of nickel and hydrogen, you could say, You can't think I'm producing nuclear, do you? Secondly, the government is so behind on cold fusion I doubt they will even recognize cold fusion is real until after many reactors have been sold and distributed. Third, if the first world nations want to become obsolete and fall behind the third world nations, then they will try to hold up cold fusion research. The accidents at Three Mile Island, Chernobyl and Fukushima make that unthinkable. The public would not stand for it. Nor should the public stand for it. This is not 1948, when governments and corporations could do whatever they please in secrecy. As much as I support cold fusion, I think it would be insane to have anything other than kilowatt-scale research reactors in laboratories until all of the experts agree they know how the reaction works and they are sure it cannot produce harm. This will take many years, and billions of dollars. This is cold fusion and not hot fusion. The public should stand for it, and should demand it. If you think that the government should hold up the implementation of cold fusion technology for years, then you are against progress. The fact is that cold fusion technology is safe. It is just as safe as many large pieces of equipment you can buy at Home Depot or Lowes. The world cannot wait for cold fusion technology. We need it now, and not years from now. Anyone who supports holding up this technology so their precious mainstream scientists can spend years researching it before it is allowed on the market, will be literally guilty of causing massive human suffering. There are billions of people in the world that could benefit from cold fusion immediately. If anyone tries to hold it up, they need to realize they are contributing to thousands of children starving to death. Defkalion believes they will be allowed to distribute these things in Europe before the devices have been vetted by nuclear experts worldwide and before there is complete understanding the the reaction. I think there is no chance this will be allowed, even if the Greek Min. of Energy tests are completed an a license is granted. As soon it becomes generally known that these are nuclear reactors (as I am certain they are) the public and governments worldwide will demand that sales be put on hold while experts worldwide test thousands of units for thousands of hours. I'm pretty sure the devices will be sold and put on the market, without any additional hold up. The entire European area is in a massive economic recession. We need this technology here. If we were not in an energy crisis and lets say were already using magnetic free energy, then there might be a hold up. But no nation is going to be the guilty party of holding up a revolutionary technology that could stop Europe from collapsing. Also, if the technology is utilized in the Greek and Baltic markets, it will be utilized all over Europe. No nation will want to be left behind. Details will be published in leading journals of physics and engineering, just as they are for semiconductor or combustion technology. There will be conferences with hundreds of attendees at which the technology is discussed in great detail, where universities and corporations reveal their
Re: [Vo]:more speculations on break-up
From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:more speculations on break-up I wrote: It's much better for Rossi to have licencee(s) build a few large electricity-generating units in well-garded places, and sell the electricity to resellers. The strategy would not work, and it would not be allowed. It would not work because security by obscurity for such a momentous discovery would never last. . . . I have no idea whether this is Rossi's strategy or not. I never speculate about Rossi. This might be his strategy, but if it is, I am sure it will fail, for the reasons I spelled out. I am equally sure that Defkalion's sales strategy will also fail. There is no chance people with 40 million euros will be allowed to start build dozens of factories worldwide to manufacture machines that no physicist can explain, and only one national laboratory in Greece has tested. Such an informal, unregulated approach would never be allowed in the EU, Japan or the U.S. Perhaps you could bribe enough government officials in China to allow it, but even there the public no longer stands silently when inept officials kill people the way they did in the recent high speed railroad accident. Defkalion's strategy will succeed, because there is no reason for it not to succeed. The reactors are safe. Also, the world needs this technology. If by some chance individuals such as yourself succeed in getting this technology held back for years, I hope there is a peaceful global revolution against big government tyrants. Some people here have predicted that if cold fusion reactors do need the usual testing by government agencies, the opposition will use this as means to smother the technology, or strangle it with red tape. I disagree. The requirements for extensive testing did not stop the Prius, the Boeing Dreamliner aircraft, or other improved technology. Regulations added to the cost, of course. They make it impossible for a small, unfunded start-up to introduce a radical new technology. Tesla Motors, for example, has to sell cars at a high price to cover all the testing, and they use bodies developed by mainstream manufacturers. Once national laboratories worldwide begin serious testing of commercial prototype cold fusion devices, the physicists who say cold fusion does not exist will shut up and go away. Scientific American and Nature will modesty accept credit for helping to invent the technology. The public will demand that the regulatory agencies move quickly to approve the machines. If there are delays and attempts to strangle cold fusion, this will be front page news, and the public will not stand for it. I expect it will take 5 or 10 years for the devices to reach the marketplace, but I do not think any organization, cartel or corporation will be powerful enough to stop it. I am sure that many will try to stop it, but as I have often said, nothing can overrule public opinion. Despite the power of concentrated wealth and corruption on Wall Street and in government, in such matters public opinion will prevail. The only way the opposition can win will be if the public pays no attention to the tests, and expresses no desire to buy cold fusion reactors. Because cold fusion will save the average U.S. person thousands of dollars a year, and because this will soon be common knowledge, I think there is no chance the pubic will ignore this. The lure of money is too strong for that. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
What do you think the catalyst is at this time? From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 1:46 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN Ever since one of our number “noone noone” posted this http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg49026.html I have been concerned that I have let Rossi’s secret out of the bag to his detriment and that secret has been used by Defkalion Green Technologies to reverse engineer Rossi’s reactor core. Rossi just can’t keep his mouth shut and his loose lips has had many opportunities to let hints about his technology out during working conversations with highly knowledgeable and competent Defkalion engineering personnel to a point where reverse engineering his system is possible. I know his many disclosures have comforted me greatly in my curiosity about the most intimate inner workings of his system Rossi’s intellectual property rights are also weak at best and there is a strong possibility that someone else might well claim payment from Defkalion for intellectual property associated with Rossi’s system. For a company in Defkalions position, it is good due diligence business practice to attempt to reverse engineer Rossi’s system in lieu of paying a large royalty for his secret. Defkalion may have gotten their own homegrown version of Rossi’s core working well enough to encourage them into a delaying strategy to string out the payment of Rossi’s royalty disbursement as long as progress in their reverse engineering efforts showed promise. This payment delay reached a point where eventually Rossi through in the towel in frustration over doing business with Defkalion. With the passage of time and concerted effort to understand Rossi’s technology, Defkalion may come up with a competitive alternative to Rossi’s system; only time will tell. Best regards, Axil On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 2:05 PM, Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: http://pesn.com/2011/08/10/9501891_Defkalion_Responds_in_Support_of_Rossi/ Sorry if it's already here ... I looked for it. Hard to well if it's actually conflicting with what Rossi as said (technically). They say it's built AROUND the core (not that they have one), AND that they have (are?) set up a production line to make the cores if and when Rossi reveals the secret ingredient.
Re: [Vo]:PhysOrg reports on Krivit's latest article...
The thing is Widom Larsen theory (which I do not think is valid) does produce nuclear fusion. When a proton and electron pretending to be a neutron enter an atom's nucleus releasing energy and causing transmutations, it is FUSION!!! The Widom Larsen folks are absolutely out of their minds trying to claim the theory does not produce fusion. From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 9:11 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:PhysOrg reports on Krivit's latest article... From Bergman Can somebody explain me how, it is likely a weak interaction involving neutrons, without fusion could possibly gain energy? And where do these neutrons come from? It looks like people are more skeptical on the claim 'cold fusion' than on the claim that 'abra-ca-dabra' can actually do something. What piqued my interest was reading the phrase ...a weak interaction involving neutrons, without fusion. Sure sounds like Widom-Larsen speak to me. My my my! What's going on under the bed sheets here? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:PhysOrg reports on Krivit's latest article...
Krivit and other worshippers of Widom Larsen theory do not make any sense. The reaction is not a weak interaction, but a fusion reaction. The neutrons are supposed to be protons and electrons that become virtual neutrons. Basically, Widom Larsen worshippers want people to believe if a proton and electron put on a mask, they are no longer a proton and neutron. From: Bastiaan Bergman bastiaan.berg...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 7:25 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:PhysOrg reports on Krivit's latest article... Can somebody explain me how, it is likely a weak interaction involving neutrons, without fusion could possibly gain energy? And where do these neutrons come from? It looks like people are more skeptical on the claim 'cold fusion' than on the claim that 'abra-ca-dabra' can actually do something. On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 3:26 PM, Mark Iverson zeropo...@charter.net wrote: You can get the gist of it just by the hyperlink... http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-08-controversial-energy-generating-lacking-credibility-video.html -Mark
Re: [Vo]:PhysOrg reports on Krivit's latest article...
Inspired by Krivit's nonsense. Krivit has been out to try and discredit Rossi for a long time. He truly is a snake. From: Mark Iverson zeropo...@charter.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 6:26 PM Subject: [Vo]:PhysOrg reports on Krivit's latest article... You can get the gist of it just by the hyperlink... http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-08-controversial-energy-generating-lacking-credibility-video.html -Mark
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion doesn't need Rossi's catalyzer
I think it is obvious they have the catalyst. From: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 10:41 PM Subject: [Vo]:Defkalion doesn't need Rossi's catalyzer Dear all, I haven't seen any announcement from Defkalion regarding terminating their business, so the only conclusion I can have it is that they don't need the secret catalyzer. Do you know of a way to confirm that?
Fw: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
- Forwarded Message - From: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com To: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2011 2:05 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it! It is obvious Defkalion knows about the catalyst. They would not have invested hundreds of millions of dollars without knowing the identity of it. I keep hearing about this so called press release that was sent out claiming Rossi and Defkalion have split up. Does anyone know where it is located? From: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:53 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it! If they split up, it means there is no more e-cats made by Defkalion because only Rossi knows about the catalyzer.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
Anyone have any evidence? I'm really hoping if this rumor is *real*, that someone will post the so called press release. If several members of this forum have seen it, they need to post it. Otherwise, I say that several members of this forum are participating in rumor mongering. Please put a big disclaimer on it when you post it, so people will know that it has not been confirmed as being legit. From: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:38 AM Subject: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it! There are rumors that Rossi and Defkalion have split up. However, no evidence has been presented. If you have evidence, present it. Otherwise, this is just rumor mongering.
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
What if the opposite is true? What if Defkalion had advanced the technology beyond what Rossi had been able to achieve, and they really did not need Rossi any longer. Remember, Defkalion claimed that the Greek govt were going to do performance and safety certification testing of their products the first ten days of July. What if they have products ready to ship and install, but are waiting on Rossi to get his one megawatt plant up and running? Perhaps Rossi saw how far they had advanced the technology, and got spooked. We don't know the whole story. We don't know what is true at this point. From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2011 10:18 AM Subject: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means Well since this breakup information finally comes from Rossi himself, the earlier press release was apparently not a forgery. At any rate, it would be easy to misinterpret what this E-Cat breakup means, but it clearly means that Rossi does not realize that DGT may know his all-important secret. They have said as much. It may also mean that Rossi has been had. For the benefit of those not conversant with US slang - this means that the breakup was based on an illusion, and was actually engineered by Defkalion in order to preserve funds for their own MW demonstration. After all, there is are 100,000,000 reasons why this breakup could hurt Rossi more than help him. And the converse is true for DGT. Or rather, to be accurate we should say - either Defkalion is a sham and completely dishonest- or else they have effectively reverse engineered his device; and thereafter they have concocted this breakup scheme - since AR adamantly claims that DGT have received NO devices, nor do they know the secret. Defkalion, OTOH claim to have a MW unit in testing now - probably in Cyprus. The Xanthi plant is most likely a red herring, or else it was specifically set up to obtain EEC 'ecology funds' which were not forthcoming. That is another story which is just now coming out. Apparently, there is no indication from visitors to the Xanthi site that there is anything going on in that location to indicate that production or a demonstration is planned. It was a complete diversion, apparently. Rossi may have known that there was nothing going on there and based his decision on this fact. This probably means that all of DGTs efforts, if they are really 'players' and not liars, are taking place at another site, most likely in Cyprus ... or else of course, that they are complete frauds. Rossi probably thinks that they are completely fraudulent, which could be the case, we simply do not know at this stage - but there is another way of looking at the dynamics of this situation. My preliminary hypothesis (based on too-little information) 1) Defkalion are basically clever opportunists who found Rossi at the right time and provided some initial funding. 2) They may have ties to the Russian government. 3) The reverse-engineering of E-Cat could have been done in Russia. IOW they got hold of at least one E-Cat unit (possibly by illegal means) and had it reversed engineered by a technology powerhouse, but Rossi does not know this. 4)They want to avoid any further payment to Rossi and conserve funds for their own product line 5) With their superior engineering support, they could have advanced the technology well beyond Rossi. 6) The clever part is that they set up a 'sting' to make it look like it is Rossi's call on the breakup, and that DGT will suffer in the end - when in fact, it was a well conceived deception from the start. 7) An almost perfect double scam ? This is not ruled out, since AR thinks they do not know the secret. Time will tell. Actually, as for predictions for the next few months, I am looking for TWO separate demos this fall - possibly one by Rossi in November (in the USA) - but possibly one by DGT earlier - perhaps in October, but most likely not in Xanthi. I hear that Nicosia is nice in the fall g Jones
[Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
There are rumors that Rossi and Defkalion have split up. However, no evidence has been presented. If you have evidence, present it. Otherwise, this is just rumor mongering.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split-up?
Do you have something to back this up, or are you just trolling again? From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, August 5, 2011 3:27 PM Subject: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split-up? Hold the presses. Full Story at 5.
Re: [Vo]:First Photo of Mass-Produced e-Cats?
I find nothing strange about this report. So what if he sold the building. He kept the reactor, and has produced hundreds more since then. Defkalion has proceeded to build hundreds more. Defkalion has actually built their own units, tested them, and they work great. What I find strange is that there are still people going out of their way to find something to attack Rossi about! From: Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, July 12, 2011 5:07:24 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:First Photo of Mass-Produced e-Cats? On 11-07-12 03:04 PM, Alan J Fletcher wrote: At 11:58 AM 7/12/2011, Terry Blanton wrote: There's an audio interview with AR on the right column. He's at home in Miami. No hard questions. (Don't mention the Steam quality!) ... the only clarification I got was that the original factory heating eCat was no longer in operation. That factory contents (other than the Ecat) was sold. No way!! That is just so convenient, it makes me want to laugh. The one piece of total clincher evidence, the unit which was actually working as a heater in a factory, cannot be displayed or examined because the factory has been sold. (That sort of event is typical of so many impossible inventions we've heard of in the past: The videotape was lost, the original unit was stolen, sorry, you'll just have to believe me that it really did run continuously for X weeks... The only thing which distinguishes Rossi's device is that it's not theoretically impossible, merely improbable. That, and 200 million euros of investment money, which would prove something if I believed most investors were sufficiently knowledgeable physicists to judge something like this, which I don't.) Did Rossi own the factory? If so, what did he do there, and why was it sold? If he didn't own it, who did own it? Where was it? Who ran it? Who used the magic heater on a daily basis during those two years? Some mysterious beings who have said not a word in public about it, though they must have realized there was something a bit unusual about the heating system. This seems to me to be the ultimate red flag. On the other hand, those who truly want to believe in this will no doubt find nothing strange about this report, and will feel I'm being utterly unreasonable here... time will tell who's right.
Re: [Vo]:Uppsala University Denies Rossi Research Agreement
That is obvious in my opinion. He pushes his Widom Larsen theory on everyone, and anyone who dares oppose it he attacks. It is obvious he has a vested interest in proving Widom Larsen theory. I think since Rossi denied his technology has anything to do with with Widom Larsen theory, Krivit decided to try and discredit it. It is obvious to me he went to Bologna with an agenda to discredit Rossi. From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 6:41 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Uppsala University Denies Rossi Research Agreement It almost makes one think that Krivit has a vested interest elsewhere as AR implicated. T
Re: [Vo]:Uppsala University Denies Rossi Research Agreement
It is an outright lie. Krivit is doing everything he can to attack Rossi. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Uppsala University Denies Rossi Research Agreement Alan J Fletcher wrote: [KRIVIT] Professors Sven Kullander, retired from Uppsala University, and Hanno Essén, with the Royal Institute of Technology, endorsed Rossi’s claimed technology in a news story on Feb. 23, 2011, before they had seen or inspected the device. Essén is the chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Association, a nonprofit education group well-known in academic circles. Krivit is seriously departing from being an impartial observer. KE ... endorsed before they had seen or inspected the device. http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article324.ece Hardly endorsed : chock-a-block full of ifs and buts and speculation. Why not mention that they evaluated the eCat and reported on it? Alan understates the situation. Seriously departing is not strong enough. In case there are readers here who have not followed events: EK first tested the machine, THEN they endorsed it. Krivit's statement is astounding. It is either terribly confused or an outrageous lie. What could he be thinking?!? Some people might claim that EK did not do adequate testing, or that their methods were not good enough to support their conclusions. That is a legitimate difference of opinion. But it is clear that they themselves think these tests are sufficient to support the level of endorsement they made in NyTeknik. It is 100% clear that they did the tests first, then endorsed. Their endorsement was not unconditional. They left plenty of wiggle room for themselves in case Rossi turns out to be wrong. As they should; as any academic scientist would. - Jed
[Vo]:Rossi Rejects Paper Due to Carbon Catalyst Theory?
Hello Everyone, On the following page a person details how Rossi stated he would publish their paper, but then did not do so. The person theorizes that the paper might have not been published due to the fact he mentions CARBON as a possible catalyst. http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=49923.0 Could carbon be the catalyst? What do all of you think? Do any of you have an idea of what the catalyst might be?
[Vo]:Hitler Panics Over Rossi's Energy Catalyzer
Check out the video linked on the following page. It's awesome! What do all of you think? Hitler Panics Over Rossi's Energy Catalyzer A parody compiled by Hank Mills has Hitler bemoaning: If cold fusion technology hits the market place the oil industry will lose BILLIONS of dollars in profits! Hot fusion research will come to an end too! All the funding will be lost! How can we convince people to keep using fossil fuels if cheap, clean, and abundant energy from cold fusion is available? http://pesn.com/2011/07/05/9501863_Hitler_Panics_Over_Rossi_E-Cat/
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Steam hotter than 110 °C / Internal heater
Hello Jed, First of all, I would personally like to thank you for being a voice of reason on this forum. My concern is that energy is taxed heavily right now, and the powers that be will try to find some way to make up for the lost revenue. I think there are many ways they could go about this. Here are a few possibilities. 1) They could try to put a tax on every E-Cat unit sold. For example, they could claim the energy savings are so great having an E-Cat to provide electricity, heat in winter, and hot water that a 90% sales tax on units would be acceptable. Their argument would be, The average family of four will save ten thousand dollars in the first five years of owning an E-Cat unit. After that, their energy costs will be near zero. Due to this, a $4,500 dollar tax on a $5,000 dollar unit is acceptable. 2) They could try to tax every vehicle that uses the E-Cat. They could state, Since we are losing revenue from taxes on gasoline, we will need to add an upfront tax on every E-Cat powered vehicle. Otherwise, we will not be able to pay to maintain the roads. What is even more scary than an upfront tax, would be if they demanded some sort of GPS tracking device on every vehicle monitoring the miles driven, and hence the energy consumed! Consumers could then get a bill in the mail for lets say $1.00 for every mile driven. 3) They could add an extra tax on every electric bill. Although I think home based E-Cats will be sold, the power grid will probably be augmented with E-Cat units. Although the price of the electricity could go down, the government might step in and use that as an excuse to raise taxes. You could end up paying a special E-Cat tax per kilowatt hour of power consumed. I really do hope you are right, and the government will not try to tax the energy produced by E-Cats. However, with an increasingly out of control government I think they will at least try. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, May 10, 2011 6:51:50 AM Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Steam hotter than 110 °C / Internal heater noone noone wrote: I think the NRC can try, but it will not last long. I am a bit more concerned about the powers that be trying to tax the energy produced to high heaven. It would be difficult to do this, because the energy will eventually be generated on site by small machines. To tax it you would have to meter it, and meters can always be disabled. People occasionally reset odometers in automobiles to enhance the resale value of a used car. This is against the law. They do not do this often because there's not much point to it; it does not increase resale value much. On the other hand, when the odometer breaks people seldom bother to fix it. I'm sure that if the government started taxing heat and electricity from home generators, millions of consumers would cut a few wires or download a patch for the control electronics computer to report false readings. The government would soon find this untenable. (I have thought about stuff like this!) - Jed
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Can Rossi generate steam hotter than 110 °C ?
Rossi claims they can produce temperatures as high as 500 to 550 C From: Pierre Carbonnelle pierre.carbonne...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, May 9, 2011 1:01:42 PM Subject: [Vo]:Can Rossi generate steam hotter than 110 °C ? Dear all, I'm puzzled that Rossi has not answered me yet when I posted the message below on his journal last week (http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=360). If he cannot generate steam hotter than 110°C, then generating electricity will not be efficient due to Carnot's Theorem. On the other hand, if he can generate hot steam, why doesn't he demonstrate it ? It would eliminate any issues regarding wet vs dry steam in a very simple way. Just a reminder : steam can be heated at any temperature at atmospheric pressure, provided you give it enough room to expand (because V = nRT/P). Steam can expand as it wants in Rossi's device, thanks to the open hose. --- Dear Mr. Rossi, Did you ever obtain an output steam temperature well above the boiling temperature of water, e.g. an output steam temperature of 110 °C ? Presumably, such a temperature could be obtained by reducing the flow of water, and would eliminate any doubts about wet vs dry steam in a simple way. Is there any principle of operations that would make it impossible to obtain such a higher temperature ? Thanks, Pierre C.
Re: [Vo]:NyTeknik reports on Rossi patent
I am eager for that patent to be published! I want to learn what the catalyst is! From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, May 9, 2011 11:12:34 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:NyTeknik reports on Rossi patent -Original Message- From: Harry Veeder How does the Rossi device drive the electromigration of copper? Galvanic corrosion …. Well known between nickel and copper HV: Doesn't that require some moisture between the copper and nickel? Not necessarily 'moisture' so much as a solvent or other 'vehicle,' and hot hydrogen should do the trick ... it is very corrosive. HV: Anyway, why should we now believe Rossi is correctly describing his patent claims? Good point and I agree that this one is probably still a more of a decoy than anything else. There are many reports of another WIPO filing which will be published soon, which will probably identify the catalyst, since essentially that is probably his main breakthrough. How the Italians can differentiate this one from Piantelli is not clear, so what has he protected really? Hmm ... Well actually, the boron could be the critical difference, and until today it has been under the radar - have you seen anyone even consider the possibility that boron could be the active heat source? Boron could easily be the real secret - hiding in plain view, as it were... somewhat like OBL ... Surely we are not the first to pick up on this ??? Jones
Re: [Vo]:NyTeknik reports on Rossi patent
Perhaps at one time Rossi used a setup in which the nickel was in a copper tube, but now it is in a stainless steel reactor vessel. No electromigration can take place. From: francis froarty...@comcast.net To: jone...@pacbell.net Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, May 9, 2011 8:02:08 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:NyTeknik reports on Rossi patent Jones, I think you nailed it on the copper migration since it appears the copper tube is buried in the powder but when they say “said copper tube further including at least a heating electrical resistance” are they Implying the internal resistor is INSIDE the copper pipe? Fran 9. An apparatus method according to claim 7, characterized in that in said nickel powder filled metal tube (2) is a copper tube, said copper tube further including at least a heating electrical resistance, said tube being encompassed by a jacket (7) including either water or boron or only boron, said jacket (7) being encompassed by further lead jacket (8) in turn optionally encompassed by a steel layer (9), said jackets (7, 8) being adapted to prevent radiations emitted from said copper tube (2) from exiting said copper tube (2), thereby also transforming said radiations into thermal energy.
Re: [Vo]:NyTeknik reports on Rossi patent
1) The reactor vessel is composed of stainless steel that does not contain copper. 2) Copper appears in the nickel powder. It's pretty obvious that nickel is transmuting to copper. From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, May 9, 2011 6:43:33 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:NyTeknik reports on Rossi patent In a quick count of metals employed in this patent, copper is mentioned seven times and nickel six times. The testing of active powder in Sweden has shown a natural isotope balance of copper, and no radioactivity. Given that nickel has the second most stable nucleus in the periodic table, how can any objective observer believe that the heat from this reactor depends on the conversion of nickel to copper for the heating effect? …other than that Rossi says so ? Clearly, Rossi has no clue …. I will add, in deference to WL theory and the ULM, that the stated presence of boron does provide a more acceptable pathway for gain… Jones From:Jed Rothwell http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3173090.ece - Jed
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Steam hotter than 110 °C / Internal heater
I think the NRC can try, but it will not last long. I am a bit more concerned about the powers that be trying to tax the energy produced to high heaven. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, May 9, 2011 4:03:38 PM Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Steam hotter than 110 °C / Internal heater These are important points, and I agree with everything here, except -- as I said -- the last line: By the time anyone gets to making electricity or home heating units, it will be so deep in NRC regulation that it may take decades to see the light of day. Oh come now. Every company in every country will rush to make these things. The Pentagon will understand that without this technology, the U.S. can be defeated by Lichtenstein. There is no chance the NRC can hold back this technology. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:cu pipe is sealed inner reactor not Stainless steel
Rossi claims that he can produce steam up to 550C by connecting units together. There is no reason to think he cannot produce hot enough steam to produce electricity. Also, regardless as to the quality of this patent, what really matters is the patent that covers the catalyst. Anyone could buy nano-nickel powder and build what Rossi has described to us. Without the catalyst they could not produce a significant output. Being nuclear devices (transmutations and low level gamma rays being produced) the NRC may try to step in, but I think their efforts will be futile. Hopefully, the fact cold fusion exists will make some scientists take another look at other technologies such as those produced by Black Light Power. The world needs those hydrino hydride compounds! From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, May 9, 2011 5:07:53 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:cu pipe is sealed inner reactor not Stainless steel Two messages are coming through loud and clear wrt the “big picture”… First - Rossi is getting horrendous legal advice, and the beneficiary of that is the “rest of us”. This is no doubt the worst patent application in memory and it follows a very good one that Rossi got when LTI paid the bill (extremely competent, actually, which is why I am calling this one nothing more than a joke). IOW – with an unenforceable patent as his only protection –junk really, then Rossi will go down as a “great inventor” with big bucks in the bank from the Greeks - and at the same time US consumers will be able to buy these things from China for a very low cost, as space heaters, since they are non-nuclear. Hot water and winter heating consume vast amounts of coal, the dirtiest fuel - so even if this baby does not work on a steam cycle – we have effectively lowered fossil fuel consumption by up to 30%. That will get back to lower oil costs, in the end. It is the best of all scenarios. And the E-Cat might work on an organic vapor cycle (i.e. ammonia) instead of steam, anyway. What’s not to like about that? Jones From:Roarty, Francis X So Rossi let us go ahead and think the cu was outside the SS reactor while it was actually the sealed inner reactor filled with Ni powder and a resistive heater. Water flows around the copper reactor inside a SS jacket. The SS is a jacket not a reactor! See patent drawing Jed just uploaded : http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RossiAmethodandaa.pdf http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RossiAmethodandaa.pdf
Re: [Vo]:Wikipedia: Rossi granted patent
This might not be the patent for the catalysts. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 8:23:19 AM Subject: [Vo]:Wikipedia: Rossi granted patent Brian Josephson reports: According to infallible Wikipedia: The Italian Office for Patents and Trademarks issued the patent for the invention on 6 April 2011 Eccellente! Bravissimo! (how come we didn't hear about it earlier?) - Jed
Re: EXTERNAL: RE: [Vo]:Mass-to-Energy
I think it is mostly number 1 with a little bit of 6 mixed in. Most of the energy is coming from fusion, but a few hydrinos may be produced. From: Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 8:03:48 AM Subject: RE: EXTERNAL: RE: [Vo]:Mass-to-Energy 7) Antenna for dark energy - hydrogen is changed (IRH), or contained, in such a way in nanopores that it acts like an antenna for dark energy. Jones, this might get into what Robin and I were discussing regarding why the heat extraction doesn’t draw down the gas temp to absolute zero – the “antenna” may be the h2 covalent bond where the large scale changes in Casimir force oppose antenna / h2 motion caused by local scale zitter. The fractional values taken on by h2 would represent the axis of deployment. Most people assume ground state doesn’t represent ZPE but… Regards Fran _ From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 10:42 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: RE: [Vo]:Mass-to-Energy The M.O. List It could be helpful - to anyone approaching Ni-H from a the theoretical perspective, to have a list of all possible gainful routes which are either non-nuclear, new-nuclear, supra-chemical, or a hybrid. Your submission will be appreciated. Since many of these overlap, I will await completion of a more complete, or better worded list - to arrange them in some kind of hierarchy. 1) Nickel-to-copper new-nuclear with little or no radioactivity. This comes under 'new' because all known transmutations of nickel to copper at the kW level would leave deadly levels of radioactivity. 2) H+H à D new-nuclear comes under 'new' because all known fusion of hydrogen to deuterium involve a positron, which is not seen. 3) WL ultra low momentum neutron. Clearly comes under 'new' but the lack of predicted radioactivity makes it seem unlikely for Rossi. 4) Cavity QED only. Hydrogen enters Casimir cavity, gains energy from ZPE. No ash. 5) Cavity QED with nuclear makeup. Essentially these two involve asymmetric chemistry, the later leading to nuclear reaction which are stimulated by a prior energy deficit, and thus have no residual radioactivity. 6) Mills' hydrino 7) Antenna for dark energy - hydrogen is changed (IRH), or contained, in such a way in nanopores that it acts like an antenna for dark energy. 8) Antenna for neutrinos - hydrogen is changed or contained in such a way that it acts like an antenna for neutrino interaction. 9) Ballotechnic. Inner orbital chemistry, with or without a nuclear nexus. 10) your entries are needed Jones
[Vo]:What is the D2 Canister next to the H2 Canister
Hello Everyone, There is probably a simple explanation for this. In the new video that can be found on the following site. http://www.rainews24.rai.it/it/canale-tv.php?id=23074 A schematic layout of the experiment is shown In the schematic there is a canister of hydrogen labeled H2 There is another canister beside it labeled D2 What is this canister? Is it just a second canister of hydrogen?
Re: [Vo]:What is the D2 Canister next to the H2 Canister
So to be clear, do you think that Rossi's statement that a catalyst (two elements other than nickel) is used in the E-Cat is a lie? From: Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 5:33:00 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:What is the D2 Canister next to the H2 Canister Thanks! I do not think that a secret catalyst exists- it is about a better nanostructure of nichel made by physical or chemical (?) methods. It can be an alloy or a mixture but nanotechnology is the key. I told that the catalyst is actually NiEnTe, nichts, nada etc but people enjoy speculating.Vederemo! I can sincerely and technically appreciate the difficulties Rossi had in differentiating from Piantelli old patent. Peter On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Angela Kemmler angela.kemm...@gmx.de wrote: Original-Nachricht Datum: Wed, 4 May 2011 13:48:37 +0300 Von: Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Betreff: Re: [Vo]:What is the D2 Canister next to the H2 Canister Dear Angela, If you read the patent WO 2010/058288 (co-inventor is Piantelli's daughter, a physicist) and compare it with Rossi's patent you will see why the later has problems. Piantelli's patent has logical coherence- you can understand WHY you have to do what it describes. Peter Yes Peter I read the patent about 2 month ago. The difference is that he has no secret catalyst. A patent must describe all the details an expert needs to replicate an effect and it must explain the best method available at the moment the patent request is made. I don't remember the details of the two Pantelli patents however. Was that your question? Regards, Angela -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:What is the D2 Canister next to the H2 Canister
Rossi has specifically stated that the catalysts are elements that are not nickel. If there are not other elements in there then he has lied. If that is a case he is a sorry scumbag monster and I hope his technology goes no where. However, I think he is telling the truth. From: Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 6:26:00 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:What is the D2 Canister next to the H2 Canister It is no place for philosophy here but it is a problem of definition- things re not 11000% true or 100% lies. If it is a catalyzer- what does it catalyze? (accelerate a reaction and is not consumed?) Catalyzers work via active sites (see my ancient paper http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/GluckPunderstand.pdf (active sites were later enobled to NAE) more more active sites per unit of volume or of weight= better catalyst, more intense reaction. Rossi's merit - is, I think a superior Ni nanostructure, with higher activity. An example- Rosii says there are 100 grams of NI in the core -true! He says there is 1 gram ni there- also true, because only a small fraction of Ni actually works. But E-cat is a good catchword and inspires speculation. Peter On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 3:59 PM, noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: So to be clear, do you think that Rossi's statement that a catalyst (two elements other than nickel) is used in the E-Cat is a lie? From: Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 5:33:00 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:What is the D2 Canister next to the H2 Canister Thanks! I do not think that a secret catalyst exists- it is about a better nanostructure of nichel made by physical or chemical (?) methods. It can be an alloy or a mixture but nanotechnology is the key. I told that the catalyst is actually NiEnTe, nichts, nada etc but people enjoy speculating.Vederemo! I can sincerely and technically appreciate the difficulties Rossi had in differentiating from Piantelli old patent. Peter On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Angela Kemmler angela.kemm...@gmx.de wrote: Original-Nachricht Datum: Wed, 4 May 2011 13:48:37 +0300 Von: Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Betreff: Re: [Vo]:What is the D2 Canister next to the H2 Canister Dear Angela, If you read the patent WO 2010/058288 (co-inventor is Piantelli's daughter, a physicist) and compare it with Rossi's patent you will see why the later has problems. Piantelli's patent has logical coherence- you can understand WHY you have to do what it describes. Peter Yes Peter I read the patent about 2 month ago. The difference is that he has no secret catalyst. A patent must describe all the details an expert needs to replicate an effect and it must explain the best method available at the moment the patent request is made. I don't remember the details of the two Pantelli patents however. Was that your question? Regards, Angela -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Rossi interviewed on Radio24 [ITA]
The device was working great. The 50cc units are officially rated at 2.5 kilowatts. He was probably trying to keep them at their official rating for the test. I think it is much harder to keep the power output at the official rating than it is to let the power output spike and go into self sustain mode. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 4:08:58 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi interviewed on Radio24 [ITA] Jones Beene wrote: Jed asks you not to rub it in - the fact that Rossi's current goal is a lot closer to my estimated COP of 10, than it is to his prediction -- anywhere from 35 to infinity ... You are not rubbing it in because I miss your point. What do you mean current goal? Are you referring to the size or power of the devices? Presently 4 kW. He keeps scaling them down. He says that is safer. At 4 kW he needs 250 for 1 MW, but he is adding 50 more to act as on-line replacement (backup) units. It's all about the wet steam Perhaps you are attempting to rub in your assertion that the input to output ratio is much lower than Rossi claims. He hasn't said that, or admitted it. In the Lewan tests it was very low but the gadget did not seem to be working well that day. In other recent tests it has been as high as ever. Assuming the calorimetry right (which you do not assume -- realize) there is no indication the input to output ratio is degrading. It just varies all over the place. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Let us exercise some common sense in terms of dimensional analysis.
No, you seem to worship Randall Mills of Black Light Power and seem to be on this forum for one purpose, to push an anti-Rossi agenda. From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 6:22:14 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Let us exercise some common sense in terms of dimensional analysis. From:noone noone Ø Ø The natural isotope ratio issue is not an issue at all. Of course it is an issue. IT IS THE MAIN ISSUE as to the identity of the type of reaction. Ø Copper was found. There is no source of copper inside the reactor other than transmutations. Wrong. Read the patent. It is all that counts legally. Rossi cannot be trusted in his verbal comments. Ø The reactor is composed of stainless steel that does not contain copper. Wrong. Read the patent. It is all that counts legally. Rossi cannot be trusted in his verbal comments. I read the V and B report. The simple fact is that cold fusion does not work like hot fusion, and they refuse to accept that. Wrong again. You just do not get it! There is no “refusal”. These are well educated physicists and they want to know if it is a nuclear reaction or not. They have found it is NOT nuclear. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Let us exercise some common sense in terms of dimensional analysis.
He was never a scammer. You are intentionally twisting the entire history. Everything you post on this forum has an anti-Rossi slant. You will even make the most illogical of technical comments just to spread FUD about the Rossi technology. It seems like you are pandering to Randall Mills, who is probably concerned right now that Rossi has actually produced a working system based on cold fusion, while his technology has never been able to produce practical levels of output. From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:54:50 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Let us exercise some common sense in terms of dimensional analysis. -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell At this point in time, Rossi's statements, efforts or 'clues' can be argued to be almost immaterial to further progress in the USA, since nothing he says can be trusted. JR ... I see no evidence that he cannot be trusted. Frankly, you seem to have it in for Rossi, for some reason. Then you are essentially blind to his past misdeeds, and essentially pandering, as I have said repeatedly. I cannot say it more emphatically, the man has a history as a SCAMMER. Take the collaboration with the university of New Hampshire, where he showed the DoD a fabulous device with 100 watts of TEG power, and got big bucks for further funding. He took the money to Italy and founded a biofuel venture with funds from somewhere, who knows if they were the same funds? Then on delivery in 2002, the devices proved incredibly faulty. 'Pure crap' was one description. Out of 27 devices - just 8 worked at all, and instead of the claimed 800 to 1000 watt they produced about 1 Watt of power. He then had a convenient lab fire to destroy the evidence, and avoided deportation apparently. He could have funded EON with the money which was supposed to go into building good devices. THIS COULD HAPPEN AGAIN Many who followed Rossi's work in thermoelectrics at UNH are amazed to see him back in action at what could be a similar scam. However, I break with them in believing, as I have said repeatedly, the Rossi most likely got incredibly lucky this time, chose the right mentor (Forcardi) and does have something valid. Who knows what it is, however? Curiously - the 2002 demo, like the Bologna demo - was greatly anticipated and supposed to be exactly the same kind of massive breakthrough from prior art. Pure BS, as it turned out. He CANNOT be trusted, but he could be incredibly lucky! Here is a sanitized version of the story cleansed by LTI, but the true grit is worse than this sounds. Bottom of Page 5 is where it gets interesting: http://dodfuelcell.cecer.army.mil/library_items/Thermo%282004%29.pdf There were suspicious fires, and had his criminal background been known at the time, he could and should have been sent back to Italy, but lo and behold, he may turn out to be the luckiest man on earth. LTI is very well-connected, and apparently pulled string with DoD to avoid a 'third strike'. We have to ask, is this new work real, or just an improved version of prior Rossi scams (including Petrodragon)? YOU CANNOT CONTINUE TO IGNORE THIS RECENT HISTORY. IT IS VERY RELEVANT TO THE PRESENT SITUATION. Again, personally - I think Rossi did get very lucky and now has a valid device, but scam has not been ruled out and it is probably far less robust than it appears.
Re: [Vo]:New tests- by Nyteknyk
Let me get these trivial comments (that are bound to come up) out of the way so real discussion can begin... There is a problem with their measurement of water flow! Their scale is a model xyz when it should have been a model yzx! The location of their thermal probes is all wrong! It was two millimeters too far to the left! They could have filled some portion of the device with highly energetic ultra-exotic chemical fuel that can only be obtained from Area 51! The steam was not dry enough! The scientists involved did not get third degree burns over their entire body so it was obviously not hot enough! Their ammeter was not calibrated by 15 third parties, and they did not use the most expensive model on the face of the planet! If this was a true fusion reaction, they would have all died from radiation poisoning. The reaction must be hydrinos, hydrinos, hydrinos! From: Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 1:04:44 AM Subject: [Vo]:New tests- by Nyteknyk see please: http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3166552.ece Peter -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Old, but MAJOR clue about the Rossi CATALYST?
It's why you can gain energy from playing around with the BH curve of magnetic materials. From: Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com To: mix...@bigpond.com mix...@bigpond.com Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 4:16:53 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Old, but MAJOR clue about the Rossi CATALYST? Robin, I couldn’t agree more when you state “I think that if the ZPE exists, then it is responsible for all other forces.” Best Regards Fran
Re: [Vo]:New tests- by Nyteknyk
Be careful with the fraud word. You may have to live with those words forever, after the E-Cat technology starts being used all around the world. From: Jeff Driscoll hcarb...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 5:12:45 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:New tests- by Nyteknyk So they are again using a crappy temperature probe to figure out steam quality (dry versus wet steam)? This is so bogus. If the boiling water has a back pressure of 0.6 psi, the temperature will be raised by 1 degree C see here: http://www.broadleyjames.com/FAQ-text/102-faq.html Is this the third time they have done this stupid method of measuring evaporation of steam? Or is more than 3 times. Does anyone have the correct count of times they have done this? Why don't they feed the steam into a 55 gallon water tank and then measure the temperature rise of the water as *everyone* has been suggesting? They probably don't and won't because they are frauds. On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 4:04 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: see please: http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3166552.ece Peter -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com/
Re: [Vo]:New tests- by Nyteknyk
How about no need? They can easily examine the steam quality where the tubing is attached. It's strait forward to tell if it's wet steam or dry steam. If it's dry steam, there is no need to do the 55 gallon water tank test. From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 6:17:36 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:New tests- by Nyteknyk What would you prefer? completely incompetent? Jeff is right-on. Once again, with feeling: “Why don't they feed the steam into a 55 gallon water tank and then measure the temperature rise of the water as *everyone* has been suggesting?” Jones From:noone noone Be careful with the fraud word. You may have to live with those words forever, after the E-Cat technology starts being used all around the world. From:Jeff Driscoll So they are again using a crappy temperature probe to figure out steam quality (dry versus wet steam)? This is so bogus. If the boiling water has a back pressure of 0.6 psi, the temperature will be raised by 1 degree C see here: http://www.broadleyjames.com/FAQ-text/102-faq.html Is this the third time they have done this stupid method of measuring evaporation of steam? Or is more than 3 times. Does anyone have the correct count of times they have done this? Why don't they feed the steam into a 55 gallon water tank and then measure the temperature rise of the water as *everyone* has been suggesting? They probably don't and won't because they are frauds. On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 4:04 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: see please: http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3166552.ece Peter -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com/
Re: [Vo]:New tests- by Nyteknyk
I very seriously doubt that the testing to determine the quality of the steam was done at the end of the hose. I agree that it would be impossible to check the quality of the steam there. They must have checked the steam with the hose disconnected. From: Jeff Driscoll hcarb...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:46:40 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:New tests- by Nyteknyk you wrote People who understand these meters tell me it is not a joke at all. The meter with that probe is fine for that purpose. There would not be much point to making an RH meter probe is intended for a range of temperature up to 300°C that does not work with steam. My guess (without digging up the probe manual which I've read some weeks ago) is the probe is capable of surviving up to 300 C, not that it correctly measures relative humidity up to 300 C. But this is a moot point because any test that Rossi does is going to have 100% Relative humidity at the end of the hose because the steam is partially condensing already when it leaves the hose. see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_humidity How can a Relative Humidity probe measure the ratio of the mass of vapor to the mass of liquid droplets when it is pegged at 100%? If Noone Noone comes back with some capacitance thing I'm going to ask him to do some more research because I can't explain science to him.
Re: [Vo]:RE:The APPEARANCE of In your face type attitude
The skeptical naysayers are the ones that started this conflict. They have attacked cold fusion for twenty years. Instead of being honestly skeptical and stating more research needed to be done, they claimed it was impossible. We now need to prove to them cold fusion is a reality. We do not need to use terms like LENR to be more politically correct. I think some folks use the term LENR just to avoid making the naysayers feel too embarrassed. They need to feel embarassed and ashamed of the way they have squashed cold fusion research! From: Wm. Scott Smith scott...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 12:26:32 PM Subject: [Vo]:RE:The APPEARANCE of In your face type attitude When we say Cold Fusion they are almost justified in assuming that it should work the same way as hot fusion. We will get much further with more people if we emphasize that something is new and different, and can THEY explain THAT. If we get them thinking enough to come up with something---anything as an explanation, then we have gotten past their knee-jerk response to the appearance that we are claiming that it is identical to hot fusion. (Casimirically Relativistically-speaking, they really might be identical.) But the point is to engage them in a discussion, not to cram our interpretations down their throats with an In your face! kind of rhetoric--whether or not this attitude is real on our part, this is what many of them are perceiving. Nothing shuts down the rational part of people's mind faster that making them feel slighted, relationally speaking! Scott Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 00:31:17 -0700 From: thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Non-Chemical Heat Phenomenon Label more neutral. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com I like the term cold fusion better. The skeptics have been challenging cold fusion for decades. We need to shove cold fusion in their face. From: Wm. Scott Smith scott...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, May 1, 2011 6:18:00 PM Subject: [Vo]:Non-Chemical Heat Phenomenon Label more neutral. The Label: Non-Chemical Heat Phenomenon is more neutral than LENR. Assuming that this is some kind of fusion is like when people presume that the Sun is Fusion, just because they cannot imagine any other sufficiently great source of energy, but as far as we know, the Second Law might actually be correct, meaning that the Hot Corona (millions of degrees) heats the Cold Sun (Mere thousands of degrees. Embracing genuine ignorance is far better than drinking the strong drink of delusion!!! Scott
Re: [Vo]:FAKE or REAL -- April test -- NO Chemical Fakes eliminated
The E-Cat has been proven to be most probably real to anyone but the most extreme of skeptics. I will be the first to admit that I want to see additional testing, but the chance of this system being fake is extremely low. I would say one percent or less. Too many people have performed tests on the E-Cat. I also do not think the scientists at the University of Bologna would be easily fooled by a fake. There is also no reason for Rossi to be faking this technology. If he did fake it, he would simply be wasting a ton of money. I do not know why some people keep bringing up the notion that this technology is a fake. It is not rational in my opinion. From: Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 1:18:38 PM Subject: [Vo]:FAKE or REAL -- April test -- NO Chemical Fakes eliminated http://lenr.qumbu.com/fake_rossi_ecat_frames_v331.php http://lenr.qumbu.com/fake_rossi_ecat_v331.pdf Updated conclusion : Two new tests were run in April. These definitely rule out a Tarallo fake. The experimental setup was adequate, but since the eCat was NOT unwrapped the time of the run was NOT long enough to rule out ANY OF the chemical fakes. (Only some of the stored-heat fakes are eliminated). At present the Rossi eCat has NOT been proven to be real.
