[WSG] CSS foul-up in IE. Trying to implement Myers pure css pop-up code
Here's a rough example. It needs more styling, but I hope it's what you are after. http://www.thinkpinkstudio.com/examples/menu.html ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
What is the definition of a CSS driven design ? You could say that a css-driven site is one that has all or the majority of presentation removed from the markup and placed in CSS files. Having said this, I googled the word driven for a definition and found that it also meant mobs goaded by blind hatred I don't know about anyone else but I often use angry mobs to control my web pages - though it is hard to get them to exhibit blind hate. :) Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] italic and validator
On 12/12/05, Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Noone wrote: So how does one go about separating hidden head content and body content? I mean, what happens to meta tags, page title, scripting functions etc.? Nothing much - just business as usual. Elements that matters are implied in HTML browsers. That's why they are listed as optional in HTML. It's an old story... Exactly. Remember that html UA's are just tag soup parsers... that's how html was always handled, still is, and everything... closing tags as well as head and body and html tags, are implied. That's why you can put meta tags in the body and they don't affect anything. You can put everything out of order, and for the most part it works fine. It's just bad coding practice, but for a tag soup parser, bad code is meant to be worked with. This seems to directly go against the purpose of our push, which I thought was to keep these elements distinct and apart. You're probably right, and that won't get any better as long as old HTML, with options and all, is promoted all over the place. That's probably why the W3C promotes using XHTML so much... it enforces good code. When it's served as html, you might notice that it behaves this way too, even if you accidentally insert */html* before *body*... which I've done. That's why the validator is so important. Bottom line: html and xhtml are a lot more different than you might think. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
LOL... priceless. Thank you. Having said this, I googled the word driven for a definition and found that it also meant mobs goaded by blind hatred I don't know about anyone else but I often use angry mobs to control my web pages - though it is hard to get them to exhibit blind hate. :) Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Med venlig hilsen/Best regards Kim Kruse - http://www.mouseriders.dk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
russ - maxdesign wrote: What is the definition of a CSS driven design ? You could say that a css-driven site is one that has all or the majority of presentation removed from the markup and placed in CSS files. So where's the dividing line between table based design and CSS driven ? My searching thus far has turned up Meyer, comments about the Zen Garden, and a few other proponents across the Net implying or stating that CSS driven means pretty much all CSS based, not just some.. and I'd like to know why they are right. Anyone? Having said this, I googled the word driven for a definition and found that it also meant mobs goaded by blind hatred I don't know about anyone else but I often use angry mobs to control my web pages - though it is hard to get them to exhibit blind hate. Love the definition, Russ ;) :) Russ Lawrence -- Lawrence Meckan Absalom Media Mob: (04) 1047 9633 ABN: 49 286 495 792 http://www.absalom.biz ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
On 12/12/05, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is the definition of a CSS driven design ? You could say that a css-driven site is one that has all or the majority of presentation removed from the markup and placed in CSS files. Having said this, I googled the word driven for a definition and found that it also meant mobs goaded by blind hatred I don't know about anyone else but I often use angry mobs to control my web pages - though it is hard to get them to exhibit blind hate. My CSS exhibits blind hate towards outdated browsers :) -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
russ - maxdesign wrote: I don't know about anyone else but I often use angry mobs to control my web pages - though it is hard to get them to exhibit blind hate. :) Russ Could I please request a tutorial on this method please Russ... - Geoff ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Pipe separated lists
Geoff Pack wrote: I'm not styling anything. I'm choosing which mark-up I use so that the unstyled content is clear and legible. The content is perfectly clear, and putting it in an html list does not make it any clearer or more semantic. Sure it makes sense to use pipe separators. I've been using them myself :-) (but won't do for much longer). I've come to regard such separators as noise in non-graphical browsers, after having discussed the issue with people who are depending on 'css off' browsing. Back to the pipe separator for a moment. Semantically that separator means, and is used for, separation between alternatives... That is only *one* meaning of a pipe. There are plenty of others (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_bar .) I think in this case it is used simply as a delimiter. But assuming it is a list of alternative means it makes even more sense to mark it up with pipes. As I wrote earlier... So when used as a link-separator its meaning should be 'you may follow any single one of these links, but once chosen you can not follow any of the others'. Makes sense in a way since we can (normally) only follow one link at a time... ...I'm just not sure it makes really good sense to add any kind of separators between links since they don't add any value from a usability point of view. They are just visuals that may come out as noise. Lists will add default styles that separates links - and whatever list can be used for - perfectly. Such default-style won't come out as noise in any browser. They will instead add meaning to their content. I'm not denying a pipe-separated menu is a list of links. What I'm saying is that there are cases where it is not desirable to mark up a list as an html list. Marking up menus as pipe separated lists is an old web convention that has its own meaning. And the W3C still uses it: http://www.w3.org/ http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/ Those pipe separators don't make W3C's pages neither better now worse when *viewed* with 'css off'. Separators certainly do not help in Lynx or my voice-browsers. In the latter they are just noise. It doesn't help one bit that that noise is provided by W3C - it sounds just as bad. --- Oh, and one small comment to others: I didn't think this list was meant to be an arena for fights between competing views. That would only create losers and leavers. I thought [WSG] was meant to be a forum where we could present views and discuss implications related to web development - and let everyone do as they found best for themselves when discussions were over. That's what every single one of us are going to do anyway. If I got that one wrong then let me know - in clear text. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Pipe separated lists (was: CSS foul-up in IE)
On 12/11/05, Geoff Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, but there are different degrees of ugly. I care because I occasionally look at my pages on a PDA, and inline list work better for some things (esp. navs) than bulleted lists. They are more compact and require less scrolling. But you're right, neither is more usable than the other. Well, CSS support on PDA's is slow in coming. This discussion has gotten to the point of preference rather than anything else, good points brought up and all. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
On 12/12/05, Absalom Media [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: russ - maxdesign wrote: What is the definition of a CSS driven design ? You could say that a css-driven site is one that has all or the majority of presentation removed from the markup and placed in CSS files. So where's the dividing line between table based design and CSS driven ? My searching thus far has turned up Meyer, comments about the Zen Garden, and a few other proponents across the Net implying or stating that CSS driven means pretty much all CSS based, not just some.. and I'd like to know why they are right. Anyone? *raises hand* me! me! Because when you turn CSS off, there's no styling, other than the browser defaults.The page looks like it would if you typed it up as a text document... pictures, headers, lists, charts, but nothing unusual. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
A distinction needs to be made. The html coding can be table based or tableless and in both cases the page can be CSS driven or not. On 12/12/05, Absalom Media [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: russ - maxdesign wrote: What is the definition of a CSS driven design ? You could say that a css-driven site is one that has all or the majority of presentation removed from the markup and placed in CSS files. So where's the dividing line between table based design and CSS driven ? My searching thus far has turned up Meyer, comments about the Zen Garden, and a few other proponents across the Net implying or stating that CSS driven means pretty much all CSS based, not just some.. and I'd like to know why they are right. Anyone? Having said this, I googled the word driven for a definition and found that it also meant mobs goaded by blind hatred I don't know about anyone else but I often use angry mobs to control my web pages - though it is hard to get them to exhibit blind hate. Love the definition, Russ ;) :) Russ Lawrence -- Lawrence Meckan Absalom Media Mob: (04) 1047 9633 ABN: 49 286 495 792 http://www.absalom.biz ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS Driven?
What is the definition of a CSS driven design ? I would suggest that a CSS driven site is one in which the look and layout of the site is controlled by CSS, rather than by the default behaviours of 'traditional'[1] presentational elements. Changing a single CSS declaration can theoretically change the layout and appearance of the whole site. The key word here is 'driven', in that the site presentation is controlled by the CSS, much the same as a database driven sites content is controlled and easily changed by making changes to the database records. Regards Scott Swabey Lafinboy Productions www.lafinboy.com [1] Tables, spacer gifs, and the like - 'superior being' forbid! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Pipe separated lists
You can hear the recorded output from JAWS of vertical pipes (and other commonly used separator characters) in Peter Krantz's article, The Sound of the Accessible Title Tag Separator, [http://www.standards-schmandards.com/index.php?2004/11/06/6-the-sound-of-the-accessible-title-tag-separator]. Daisy Christian Montoya wrote: If you heard what pipe separators sound like in a screen reader, you wouldn't think they were semantic. Just because they have a long history doesn't make them machine-readable. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - Release Date: 09/12/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
On 12/12/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A distinction needs to be made. The html coding can be table based or tableless and in both cases the page can be CSS driven or not. Sorry, that is wrong. A table based layout is not CSS driven. There's a difference between driven and complemented. A tableless layout is driven by CSS, and a table based layout is only complemented by CSS. Please, no more silly statements like that. This is the Web Standards Group. To take it a step further, the html coding can never be table based. That's hacking, not coding. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
From: Absalom Media [EMAIL PROTECTED]
So where's the dividing line between table based design and CSS
driven ?
My searching thus far has turned up Meyer, comments about the Zen
Garden, and a few other proponents across the Net implying or
stating
that CSS driven means pretty much all CSS based, not just some.. and
I'd
like to know why they are right.
While it's usually best if you can lay out a page without tables,
tables and CSS are not mutualy exclusive. Tables are not the opposite
of CSS :-). This scenario also separates presentation from structure:
markup:
tabletr
td id=content
Main content
/td
td id=sidebar
Sidebar
/td
/trtable
CSS:
#content {
padding: 1.5em;
border: 1px solid black;
}
#sidebar {
padding: 1.5em;
border: 1px solid black;
background-color: green;
}
Of course, it's just as easy to use DIVs and sometimes even to use
nothing :-)
http://65.110.72.165/tutorials/articles/css/div_less/
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday.
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please, no more silly statements like that. This is the Web Standards Group. To take it a step further, the html coding can never be table based. That's hacking, not coding. --- I hope you are joking. Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Al Sparber From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please, no more silly statements like that. This is the Web Standards Group. To take it a step further, the html coding can never be table based. That's hacking, not coding. --- I hope you are joking. Al, maybe Christian's wording was a bit brusque, but looking at the facts: a) the standard clearly states Tables should not be used purely as a means to layout document content http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html - this makes the use of tables for layout pretty much a practice contrary to the standard (I have been known to call it a perversion of the standard, myself) b) this list is for the Web Standards Group True, from a pragmatic (as in need to support older browsers) point of view table based layouts are sometimes a necessary evil, but from a standards point of view Christian is right, IMHO. P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Sorry, but I have to disagree. Tables as well as divs, spans etc. are containers. They are both html elements. I don't think that any standard has suppressed the table element from html and in my dictionary, hacking is modifying a program in an unauthorized manner. Are tables unauthorized? I never said that tables are meant for design. But even by w3.org standards they are used for displaying tabular data . What is in your oppinion the difference between a css driven and a css complemented page? Isn't in both cases the coding enhanced by the styling? Please do not qualify others' statements as silly. Let's keep this discussion in a friendly manner. On 12/12/05, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/12/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A distinction needs to be made. The html coding can be table based or tableless and in both cases the page can be CSS driven or not. Sorry, that is wrong. A table based layout is not CSS driven. There's a difference between driven and complemented. A tableless layout is driven by CSS, and a table based layout is only complemented by CSS. Please, no more silly statements like that. This is the Web Standards Group. To take it a step further, the html coding can never be table based. That's hacking, not coding. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
From: Patrick Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Al, maybe Christian's wording was a bit brusque, but looking at the facts: a) the standard clearly states Tables should not be used purely as a means to layout document content http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html - this makes the use of tables for layout pretty much a practice contrary to the standard (I have been known to call it a perversion of the standard, myself) b) this list is for the Web Standards Group True, from a pragmatic (as in need to support older browsers) point of view table based layouts are sometimes a necessary evil, but from a standards point of view Christian is right, IMHO. Here is the full note: Tables should not be used purely as a means to layout document content as this may present problems when rendering to non-visual media. Additionally, when used with graphics, these tables may force users to scroll horizontally to view a table designed on a system with a larger display. To minimize these problems, authors should use style sheets to control layout rather than tables.Tables should not be used purely as a means to layout document content as this may present problems when rendering to non-visual media. Additionally, when used with graphics, these tables may force users to scroll horizontally to view a table designed on a system with a larger display. To minimize these problems, authors should use style sheets to control layout rather than tables. I guess your assertion hinges on how one interprets the word should. Perhaps I am English-challenged, but I always took should to have a suggestive or advisory connotation, while shall or must are obligatory :-) Once again, I must clarify that I'm not advocating the use of tables for layout, nor am I saying they are a necessary evil for supporting old browsers. What I am saying is that they are not the opposite of CSS. Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS Driven?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Are tables unauthorized? I never said that tables are meant for design. But even by w3.org standards they are used for displaying tabular data . Tabular data is, of course, a completely different matter. Using tables is of course the best, most semantic way to present that sort of information. In fact, any attempts at recreating a table, but just with spans, divs and similar, is a futile, nay illogical exercise, as the end result can never have the same level of explicit association and relationship between the various data cells and the headings. But I can see how the thread starter's question seemed to imply a complete site layout, rather than tabular data specifically. P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Hi, on Monday, December 12, 2005 at 15:01 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: Sorry, but I have to disagree. Tables as well as divs, spans etc. are containers. They are both html elements. I don't think that any standard has suppressed the table element from html and in my dictionary, hacking is modifying a program in an unauthorized manner. Are tables unauthorized? Well, I understood it in a very similar way as Christian. If we speak about table based layout, we mean layout tables not tables for tabular data. A css driven site may use tables, but for tabular data only. Martin. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
From: Martin Heiden [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:29 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS Driven? Hi, on Monday, December 12, 2005 at 15:01 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: Sorry, but I have to disagree. Tables as well as divs, spans etc. are containers. They are both html elements. I don't think that any standard has suppressed the table element from html and in my dictionary, hacking is modifying a program in an unauthorized manner. Are tables unauthorized? Well, I understood it in a very similar way as Christian. If we speak about table based layout, we mean layout tables not tables for tabular data. A css driven site may use tables, but for tabular data only. That's sematically incorrect :-) Think of the meaning of should versus, must - actually, your sentence above has me wondering anew about the true meaning of may, as opposed to might. Tough language, this English. But whether this is a CSS or a Standards mail list, statements such as A css driven site may use tables, but for tabular data only are simply opinions. Here is a piece written by an old friend with, what I consider to be, a first-rate brain: http://www.barry.pearson.name/articles/layout_tables/ Back to your regularly scheduled programming :-) Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
2005/12/12, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ... I guess your assertion hinges on how one interprets the word should. Perhaps I am English-challenged, but I always took should to have a suggestive or advisory connotation, while shall or must are obligatory :-) ... http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Al Sparber I guess your assertion hinges on how one interprets the word should. Perhaps I am English-challenged, but I always took should to have a suggestive or advisory connotation, while shall or must are obligatory :-) http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt 3. SHOULD This word, or the adjective RECOMMENDED, mean that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item, but the full implications must be understood and carefully weighed before choosing a different course. So yes, compatibility with older browsers would be one of those valid reasons...but ignoring a particular item to me means going against/outside of the standard/specification, thus hacking/perverting. Maybe just me being pedantic (me? never!) ;-) What I am saying is that they are not the opposite of CSS. But CSS is the de-facto preferred way of defining layout of (X)HTML documents, and using tables for layout is a case of ignoring a particular item in the HTML spec. Ah well, it probably does come down to the interpretation of how strong a recommendation should really is. P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
But CSS is the de-facto preferred way of defining layout of (X)HTML documents, and using tables for layout is a case of ignoring a particular item in the HTML spec. Maybe I'm behind in my CSS religious training, but... I've found the need to use one table as a base layout because I still cannot get a div to expand in height (no height defined) to incompass its nested content as a table cell does. This is something I need to have happen once-and-awhile. Have I missed some change to CSS or are there still height issues with divs? Bob ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
From: Patrick Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:50 AM Subject: RE: [WSG] CSS Driven? Al Sparber I guess your assertion hinges on how one interprets the word should. Perhaps I am English-challenged, but I always took should to have a suggestive or advisory connotation, while shall or must are obligatory :-) http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt 3. SHOULD This word, or the adjective RECOMMENDED, mean that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item, but the full implications must be understood and carefully weighed before choosing a different course. So yes, compatibility with older browsers would be one of those valid reasons...but ignoring a particular item to me means going against/outside of the standard/specification, thus hacking/perverting. Maybe just me being pedantic (me? never!) ;-) What I am saying is that they are not the opposite of CSS. But CSS is the de-facto preferred way of defining layout of (X)HTML documents, and using tables for layout is a case of ignoring a particular item in the HTML spec. Ah well, it probably does come down to the interpretation of how strong a recommendation should really is. -- Yes. And that we are approaching the discussion cordially, indicates a healthy approach to the standards and recommendations with the primary difference being our opinions. Sadly, this is rare :-) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
From: Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS Driven? But CSS is the de-facto preferred way of defining layout of (X)HTML documents, and using tables for layout is a case of ignoring a particular item in the HTML spec. Maybe I'm behind in my CSS religious training, but... I've found the need to use one table as a base layout because I still cannot get a div to expand in height (no height defined) to incompass its nested content as a table cell does. This is something I need to have happen once-and-awhile. Have I missed some change to CSS or are there still height issues with divs? Until display: table-cell is adopted by IE, the usual means to accomplish what you want is to use faux columns or a scripted solution. You can google faux columns and view a scripted solution here: http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/pvii_columns/index.htm Note that there are lots of variations to faux columns, including some over-the-top tricks, which I'm sure others on this list will bring to your attention. Choose your own weapon :-) Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Now you'll get the no javascript fanatics chiming in. I have clients who want pages that have a box floating in the horizontal center of the page and the height of the box to vary depending on its content, the simple solution has been one table, it works, no hacks, no javascript, no regrets (unless I'm tossed out of the garden). From: Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS Driven? But CSS is the de-facto preferred way of defining layout of (X)HTML documents, and using tables for layout is a case of ignoring a particular item in the HTML spec. Maybe I'm behind in my CSS religious training, but... I've found the need to use one table as a base layout because I still cannot get a div to expand in height (no height defined) to incompass its nested content as a table cell does. This is something I need to have happen once-and-awhile. Have I missed some change to CSS or are there still height issues with divs? Until display: table-cell is adopted by IE, the usual means to accomplish what you want is to use faux columns or a scripted solution. You can google faux columns and view a scripted solution here: http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/pvii_columns/index.htm Note that there are lots of variations to faux columns, including some over-the-top tricks, which I'm sure others on this list will bring to your attention. Choose your own weapon :-) Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Bob Schwartz I've found the need to use one table as a base layout because I still cannot get a div to expand in height (no height defined) to incompass its nested content as a table cell does. If your nested content is positioned absolutely, then there is currently no plain vanilla way to get the div to expand. If your nested content is floated, you can use a clearing element (with clear: left|right|both; as appropriate) as the last item in the div. P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
From: Rimantas Liubertas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS Driven? 2005/12/12, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ... I guess your assertion hinges on how one interprets the word should. Perhaps I am English-challenged, but I always took should to have a suggestive or advisory connotation, while shall or must are obligatory :-) ... http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt Precisely :-) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
From: Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 10:29 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS Driven? Now you'll get the no javascript fanatics chiming in. I have clients who want pages that have a box floating in the horizontal center of the page and the height of the box to vary depending on its content, the simple solution has been one table, it works, no hacks, no javascript, no regrets (unless I'm tossed out of the garden). There must be more to the story because it's fairly easy to center a box horizontally without using a table. Are there any other details? Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Thanks, Sometime it is absolutely positioned. Couldn't the if floated solution be considered a hack? :-} It is starting to sound as if my reasons for using one table once-and- awhile are still valid and that there are still some height issues with divs. Bob Schwartz I've found the need to use one table as a base layout because I still cannot get a div to expand in height (no height defined) to incompass its nested content as a table cell does. If your nested content is positioned absolutely, then there is currently no plain vanilla way to get the div to expand. If your nested content is floated, you can use a clearing element (with clear: left|right|both; as appropriate) as the last item in the div. P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
I mis-spoke (maybe), the issue is not the horiz centered box, it is the box expanding in height according to its contents. (ie the whole box expands in height according to the content in the main cell). (Some clients don't want 100% height). From: Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 10:29 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS Driven? Now you'll get the no javascript fanatics chiming in. I have clients who want pages that have a box floating in the horizontal center of the page and the height of the box to vary depending on its content, the simple solution has been one table, it works, no hacks, no javascript, no regrets (unless I'm tossed out of the garden). There must be more to the story because it's fairly easy to center a box horizontally without using a table. Are there any other details? Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Pipe separated lists (was: CSS foul-up in IE)
Geoff Pack wrote: Joshua Street wrote: Can you possibly ditch the un-semantic pipe separators (|) Are the pipe separators really un-semantic? They have a long history of being used in navigation menus, and definitely have meaning. They may be redundant here given that the grandparent marked up the menu as a list, but not un-semantic. I've come to believe pipe separators are non semantic in that they only provide presentational meaning. Technically speaking, adding a pipe to a list item makes the pipe /part of/ the list item rather than a type of semantic delineation. UA's (most if not all) already provide default delineation that clearly defines each list item. Any additional type of visual separation, is purely presentational and is probably best dealt with via CSS. -- Best regards, Michael Wilson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Bob Schwartz
Couldn't the if floated solution be considered a hack? :-}
It is starting to sound as if my reasons for using one table
once-and-
awhile are still valid and that there are still some height issues
with divs.
If you're floating or absolutely positioning things, a table cell
won't help you either. Are you just after an equivalent of
td align=center
which would equate to something like
div#container { text-align: center; } /* for IE */
div#container whatever { margin: 0 auto; width: whatever; text-align: left; )
?
As aleady noted on this thread, centering does not necessarily
need floating in a CSS world...
P
Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
I'm not trying to center, the issue is height and more correctly
height which expands to fit content of nested divs and probably even
more correctly a box with columns in it which expands all columns to
be equal in height to the one with the most content.
Bob Schwartz
Couldn't the if floated solution be considered a hack? :-}
It is starting to sound as if my reasons for using one table
once-and-
awhile are still valid and that there are still some height issues
with divs.
If you're floating or absolutely positioning things, a table cell
won't help you either. Are you just after an equivalent of
td align=center
which would equate to something like
div#container { text-align: center; } /* for IE */
div#container whatever { margin: 0 auto; width: whatever; text-
align: left; )
?
As aleady noted on this thread, centering does not necessarily
need floating in a CSS world...
P
Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
[WSG] Your email requires verification verify#a6vQxgsxnTQ2Ky73eCXlkHoHksHXd3PV
Due to the volume of Spam around the internet, and in the interests of keeping the internet as spam-free as possible, unfortunately, the message you sent requires that you verify that you are a real live human being and not a spam source. To complete this verification, simply reply to this message and leave the subject line intact. Full apologies to those legitimate messages that are being verified, but, you will only need to verify once! Thanks for your assistance in helping to clear the internet of spam! The headers of the message sent from your address are show below: From wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Mon Dec 12 12:04:07 2005 Received: from [216.119.112.83] (helo=mail.webboy.net) by spirit.premierservers.com with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1Elr5p-0001Il-0y for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:04:07 -0500 From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; charset=Windows-1252; boundary=SM_c877dea0-6c92-451d-af83-7fb727368263 Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 03:45:46 1100 message-id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Your email requires verification verify#a6vQxgsxnTQ2Ky73eCXlkHoHksHXd3PV
At 18:04 12.12.2005, you wrote: Due to the volume of Spam around the internet, and in the interests of keeping the internet as spam-free as possible, unfortunately, the message you sent requires that you verify that you are a real live human being and not a spam source. To complete this verification, simply reply to this message and leave the subject line intact. Full apologies to those legitimate messages that are being verified, but, you will only need to verify once! Thanks for your assistance in helping to clear the internet of spam! The headers of the message sent from your address are show below: From wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Mon Dec 12 12:04:07 2005 Received: from [216.119.112.83] (helo=mail.webboy.net) by spirit.premierservers.com with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1Elr5p-0001Il-0y for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:04:07 -0500 From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; charset=Windows-1252; boundary=SM_c877dea0-6c92-451d-af83-7fb727368263 Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 03:45:46 1100 message-id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Your email requires verification verify#a6vQxgsxnTQ2Ky73eCXlkHoHksHXd3PV
On Dec 12, 2005, at 9:04 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Due to the volume of Spam around the internet, and in the interests of keeping the internet as spam-free as possible, unfortunately, the message you sent requires that you verify that you are a real live human being and not a spam source. To complete this verification, simply reply to this message and leave the subject line intact. Full apologies to those legitimate messages that are being verified, but, you will only need to verify once! Thanks for your assistance in helping to clear the internet of spam! The headers of the message sent from your address are show below: From wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Mon Dec 12 12:04:07 2005 Received: from [216.119.112.83] (helo=mail.webboy.net) by spirit.premierservers.com with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1Elr5p-0001Il-0y for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:04:07 -0500 From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; charset=Windows-1252; boundary=SM_c877dea0-6c92-451d-af83-7fb727368263 Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 03:45:46 1100 message-id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Pipe separated lists (was: CSS foul-up in IE)
And what does a list really look like? Which of the following is more correct: My favourite fruits are watermelon, apples and bananas. My favourite fruits are: * watermelon * apples * bananas Answer: neither. They are both lists and both mean the same. what a list looks like or how you want a list to look are irrelevant in the context of this debate. also irrelevant is whether the pipe or vertical bar has accrued implied or associated meaning through (ab)use. semantic mark-up is about utilising the most appropriate tag available for a particular thing within the provided specification (X)HTML clearly provides the ulli ... /liul and friends for marking up a whole range of different list varieties. These should be used for any list, regardless of the desired visual style / whether CSS is on or off / whether the user is using a screenreader or not etc etc. end of story. Chris DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Flash and Validation
Guys and Gals, A problem I have ignored all too long is Flash and XHTML. The problem lies in the embed tag and its attributes of course. I have of course read the alistapart articles on how they have taken steps to make valid code, but I have still found problems in Opera etc when using their methods. I wonder how you guys code in your flash on your pages - let me know! Thanks, Joe Taylor http://sitesbyjoe.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Site Check please
Guys and Gals, I have just switched my site to a fluid layout vs. the old 750 pixels wide approach. I have also changed all my font sizes to em's to adjust as needed. Can people in mac and linux take a glance to make sure all is well for me? Thanks, Joe Taylor http://sitesbyjoe.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash and Validation
I use this: http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/03/31/proper-flash-embedding- flashobject-best-practices/ Guys and Gals, A problem I have ignored all too long is Flash and XHTML. The problem lies in the embed tag and its attributes of course. I have of course read the alistapart articles on how they have taken steps to make valid code, but I have still found problems in Opera etc when using their methods. I wonder how you guys code in your flash on your pages - let me know! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Pipe separated lists (was: CSS foul-up in IE)
Geoff Pack wrote: And what does a list really look like? Which of the following is more correct: My favourite fruits are watermelon, apples and bananas. My favourite fruits are: * watermelon * apples * bananas Answer: neither. They are both lists and both mean the same. I think everyone would agree seeing both examples togteher, but what about seeing the first one by itself. And what if one can't make sense of the words? Imagine this: Je lis Stendhal, le Rouge et le Noir. Does this look like a list? It has the exact same construct and delimiters (, and and) as your example. But it is not a list, and it could not be written like this: Je lis Stendhal: * le Rouge * le Noir So IMHO, the look does convey some info Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS foul-up in IE. Trying to implement Myers pure css pop-up code
Sorry for the late reply. I have removed the pipe seperators, but there is still no text showing in IE. The other problem is off course gone.Any ideas?Regards Morten Fjellman On 12/11/05, Joshua Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can you possibly ditch the un-semantic pipe separators (|) and justuse border-right:1px solid #000; on the li elements? That wouldprobably help...Josh** The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
Re: [WSG] Flash and Validation
Hi.I have used the following code for a couple of years now, and have never had any problems with it.object classid="">codebase="" href="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0"> http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0width=762 height=118param name=movie value= header.swf / param name=quality value=high /!--[if !IE] --object data=""> width=762 height=118 type=application/x-shockwave-flash param name=quality value=high /param name=pluginurl value=http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer /ERROR! There is supposed to be Flash content here./object!-- ![endif]-- /objectThe width, height and path to the swf are just example values. Same with the Error text. Regards Morten FjellmanOn 12/12/05, Richard Stephenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One way of getting round the problem is to use _javascript_ to add theflash to a valid document using DOM _javascript_. Have a look at Bobbyvan der Sluis's UFOhttp://www.bobbyvandersluis.com/ufo/ Richard--DonkeyMagic: Website design developmenthttp://www.donkeymagic.co.ukOn 12/12/05, Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Guys and Gals, A problem I have ignored all too long is Flash and XHTML.The problem lies in the embed tag and its attributes of course.I have of course read the alistapart articles on how they have taken steps to make valid code, but I have still found problems in Opera etc when using their methods. I wonder how you guys code in your flash on your pages - let me know! Thanks, Joe Taylor http://sitesbyjoe.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
Re: [WSG] Site Check please
Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote: Guys and Gals, I have just switched my site to a fluid layout vs. the old 750 pixels wide approach. I have also changed all my font sizes to em's to adjust as needed. Can people in mac and linux take a glance to make sure all is well for me? Thanks, Joe Taylor http://sitesbyjoe.com Joe, The site "looks" ok but I have a few of comments: Why are you using a transitional doctype? What elements or deprecated attributes are you using that require this? Why are you using "pnbsp/p for spacing? There are ways to create white space etc. without using unsemantic markup? How about adding the padding or margin to a class relating to the content that requires the extra space before or after. Why are you using spans to achieve what could and probably should be accomplished using an h1, h2, or h3 element? Specifically, you are using a span to style the larger text of the article titles. You are also using spans for the article date where you could use the classes on paragraphs. All the best, Jay BTW: My own site is not perfect so go ahead and rip it apart. When I finish my next few projects I will be revamping it. Jay Gilmore Developer/Consultant Affordable Websites and Marketing Solutions for Real Small Business. SmashingRed Web Marketing P) 902.529.0651 E) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Thanks for the answer Marilyn. As I wrote before, I never implied that tables are meant to be used for layouts.I for one don't use tables ...haven't used them for quite a long time. But that doesn't mean they can't be used, if tabular data is involved. And obviously I see no hacking in using tables. I am sorry if you assumed that I meant using tables for layout in my previous posts.As someone mentioned, this is the WSG - thus we are supposed to know a few things about standards and use them. Let's suppose you have a page that involves tabular data. You got two versions of this page, one built with divs/spans/lists and another one built with tables. Both versions are css enhanced. Why would you call one css driven and the other one not? Best regards, Emma Dobrescu -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marilyn Langfeld Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 7:22 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS Driven? Hi Emma, I'd like to tackle your question. Yes, you can consider a table a container. However, in HTML a table contains tabular data, not other tables, not layout. HTML was designed by scientists, for whom tables of data were of utmost importance. It was a perversion of the language to use them for layout. Unfortunately, IMHO, designers were not part of the team developing HTML, so that presentation was given low priority. Allowing the mess that's call tag soup to develop. If the Web were only a visual medium, this wouldn't be too bad. But, one of the wonderful things about the Web is that it's a great equalizer--allowing disabled, abled, low bandwidth, high bandwith, etc. users to use it and gain information, develop networks, buy, sell, learn, teach, etc. So, in order to help the Web grow more and more useful, separate your content and presentation. That way, everyone can access your pages. That means, use tables as intended, for tabular data. Now, in my book, tabular data includes text, when presented in tabular form (with columns and rows, column heads and row heads). And use css to position, colour, define your text, images, etc. That's css-driven. As opposed to using tables for positioning and css for basic font styling. CSS can do everything I just mentioned (within browser limitations). Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Dec 12, 2005, at 9:01 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, but I have to disagree. Tables as well as divs, spans etc. are containers. They are both html elements. I don't think that any standard has suppressed the table element from html and in my dictionary, hacking is modifying a program in an unauthorized manner. Are tables unauthorized? I never said that tables are meant for design. But even by w3.org standards they are used for displaying tabular data . What is in your oppinion the difference between a css driven and a css complemented page? Isn't in both cases the coding enhanced by the styling? Please do not qualify others' statements as silly. Let's keep this discussion in a friendly manner. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** __ NOD32 1.1319 (20051212) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
On 12/12/05, Emma Dobrescu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let's suppose you have a page that involves tabular data. You got two versions of this page, one built with divs/spans/lists and another one built with tables. Both versions are css enhanced. Why would you call one css driven and the other one not? Huh? How did this get so confusing? Let's say you have an unordered list, and a bunch of spans. Both versions are CSS enhanced. But the version with spans requires floats and clears to work. ** Let's say you turn CSS off ** Which one still looks like a list? That one is not CSS driven. It is CSS enhanced. As for the one that no longer looks like a list, it's layout was completely CSS dependent. Without it, it's a run on paragraph. Wait a second, that makes no sense. So far the discussion on tables has been as weird as the example I just gave. To something more realistic... let's say you have tabular data in a table, and something that looks like a table, when CSS is on. Wait. We are comparing apples and oranges. Paint the orange red, fine, but the comparison is weird. Tabular data goes in a table. Let's compare apples and apples: Say you have tabular data in a table, and tabular data in a table. The first table uses font tags, b, i, u, spacer gifs, nbsp, empty cells, etc. The second is totally awesome like any of these: http://icant.co.uk/csstablegallery/ Now let's say you turn CSS off. Which one falls back to the browser defaults? That one is CSS driven. This is what I was saying all along... we are talking about markup that is driven by CSS, so let's not compare two different forms of markup using the same CSS, but rather, the same form of markup using CSS or something else. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Check please
On 12/12/05, Jay Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joe, The site looks ok but I have a few of comments: Why are you using a transitional doctype? What elements or deprecated attributes are you using that require this? Why are you using pnbsp/p for spacing? ... Why are you using spans to achieve what could and probably should be accomplished using an h1, h2, or h3 element? ... Jay BTW: My own site is not perfect so go ahead and rip it apart. When I finish my next few projects I will be revamping it. Joe, what Jay said. The site is great but the markup is quirky. Please explain. Well, almost everything Jay said. My site doesn't have these quirks, so you probably can't rip it apart. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
I'll take another stab at this, though others may disagree. I would define CSS-driven as probably requiring external CSS file(s), as opposed inline CSS enhancement (your term) per page. That separates the presentation (in the CSS files) from the content cleanly and allows the CSS file(s) to control the presentation of all your pages, not just one at a time with inline CSS. It's not clear how the CSS is written in your example. Can you clarify? I may still be missing your point. Are you asking if using lists is always better than using tables? Depends on the content. A definition list can work sometimes, but I find it's pushing the limits sometimes. I find people on this list aim to push HTML and XHTML to their semantic limits, from which I learn a lot. But IMHO, HTML and XHTML are very limited semantically, especially when compared to XML, so sometimes we go beyond the practical. Often discussions about tabular data displayed as definition lists pushes the limit for me. But again, I have no idea if that's what you're considering. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Dec 12, 2005, at 1:29 PM, Emma Dobrescu wrote: Thanks for the answer Marilyn. As I wrote before, I never implied that tables are meant to be used for layouts.I for one don't use tables ...haven't used them for quite a long time. But that doesn't mean they can't be used, if tabular data is involved. And obviously I see no hacking in using tables. I am sorry if you assumed that I meant using tables for layout in my previous posts.As someone mentioned, this is the WSG - thus we are supposed to know a few things about standards and use them. Let's suppose you have a page that involves tabular data. You got two versions of this page, one built with divs/spans/lists and another one built with tables. Both versions are css enhanced. Why would you call one css driven and the other one not? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Check please
The poor practices mostly come from this code being slowly updated since version 1, (which was really bad), hopefully in time all the no-no's will be removed. I appreciate the time you spent looking in there and noticing that stuff, I forgot all about those stupid span tags all over the place, left behind from my various attempts to write my own CMS (which thankfully has gotten much better!) Joe Taylor http://sitesbyjoe.com Christian Montoya wrote: On 12/12/05, Jay Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joe, The site looks ok but I have a few of comments: Why are you using a transitional doctype? What elements or deprecated attributes are you using that require this? Why are you using pnbsp/p for spacing? ... Why are you using spans to achieve what could and probably should be accomplished using an h1, h2, or h3 element? ... Jay BTW: My own site is not perfect so go ahead and rip it apart. When I finish my next few projects I will be revamping it. Joe, what Jay said. The site is great but the markup is quirky. Please explain. Well, almost everything Jay said. My site doesn't have these quirks, so you probably can't rip it apart. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Scrolling in IE5.5
Hi folks, I have an issue with IE5.5 (who doesn't?). This page: http://www.ermanz.govt.nz/no/newsletters/20051118.html displays without scroll-bars, and wont scroll with a mouse wheel either. It does scroll with the keyboard. I know the obvious fix is tell the users to get a modern browser, and I will recommend this to the user. Has anyone else come across this before? Is there a fix? While you're looking, are there any Mac browser issues? Thanks Joe ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Site Check please
pretty cool jay, what about the top links bottom border disapearing on the hover though? -kvnmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Check please
kvnmcwebn wrote: pretty cool jay, what about the top links bottom border disapearing on the hover though? -kvnmcwebn kvnmcwebn, Are you talking about my site: http://www.smashingred.com or Joe's site: http://www.sitesbyjoe.com ? All the best, Jay Jay Gilmore Developer/Consultant Affordable Websites and Marketing Solutions for Real Small Business. SmashingRed Web Marketing P) 902.529.0651 E) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [WSG] Site Check please
kvnmcwebn,Are you talking about my site: http://www.smashingred.com or Joe's site: http://www.sitesbyjoe.com ? sorryimeant joe not jay,
RE: [WSG] Pipe separated lists
To reply to a few people at once: Daisy wrote: You can hear the recorded output from JAWS of vertical pipes (and other commonly used separator characters) in Peter Krantz's article, The Sound of the Accessible Title Tag Separator, [http://www.standards-schmandards.com/index.php?2004/11/06/6-t he-sound-of-the-accessible-title-tag-separator]. Thanks for that link. Middot sounds like a good alternative, but vertical bar has history and common use on its side. Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: ...I'm just not sure it makes really good sense to add any kind of separators between links since they don't add any value from a usability point of view. They are just visuals that may come out as noise. I would agree, but for the fact that it violates WAI guideline 10.5: http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#tech-divide-links That 'until user agents' is a bit vague though. Anyone know? I've heard arguments that 10.4 (place-holding characters in edit boxes) is redundant now. Chris Townson wrote: what a list looks like or how you want a list to look are irrelevant in the context of this debate. also irrelevant is whether the pipe or vertical bar has accrued implied or associated meaning through (ab)use. semantic mark-up is about utilising the most appropriate tag available for a particular thing within the provided specification I don't think it is irrelevant. Meaning = semantics. If my inline pipe-separated list already has the semantics I intend, then making it an html list adds nothing but cruft. I don't see the point of marking it up as a list, only to have to add CSS to change it back to what I intended in the first place. end of story. Not really. That's what we're here for. cheers, Geoff ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
A desperate attempt to simplify: CSS Driven: No presentational markup, no semantic markup used improperly for presentational purposes. CSS handles all presentation. Not CSS Driven: Lots of presentational markup, but CSS for font sizes and colors. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Your email requires verification verify#a6vQxgsxnTQ2Ky73eCXlkHoHksHXd3PV
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 写道: Due to the volume of Spam around the internet, and in the interests of keeping the internet as spam-free as possible, unfortunately, the message you sent requires that you verify that you are a real live human being and not a spam source. To complete this verification, simply reply to this message and leave the subject line intact. Full apologies to those legitimate messages that are being verified, but, you will only need to verify once! Thanks for your assistance in helping to clear the internet of spam! The headers of the message sent from your address are show below: From wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Mon Dec 12 12:04:07 2005 Received: from [216.119.112.83] (helo=mail.webboy.net) by spirit.premierservers.com with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1Elr5p-0001Il-0y for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:04:07 -0500 From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; charset=Windows-1252; boundary=SM_c877dea0-6c92-451d-af83-7fb727368263 Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 03:45:46 1100 message-id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Your email requires verification verify#a6vQxgsxnTQ2Ky73eCXlkHoHksHXd3PV
Can People PLEASE stop replying to this rubbish email.The list does NOT require you to reply.Can an Admin please take care of it?On 12/13/05, Fenguly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 写道:Due to the volume of Spam around the internet, and in the interests of keeping the internet as spam-free as possible, unfortunately, the message you sent requires that you verify that you are a real live human being and not a spam source. To complete this verification, simply reply to this message and leave the subject line intact.Full apologies to those legitimate messages that are being verified, but, you will only need to verify once! Thanks for your assistance in helping to clear the internet of spam! The headers of the message sent from your address are show below:From wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Mon Dec 12 12:04:07 2005Received: from [ 216.119.112.83] (helo=mail.webboy.net) by spirit.premierservers.com with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1Elr5p-0001Il-0y for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:04:07 -0500From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgMIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; charset=Windows-1252; boundary=SM_c877dea0-6c92-451d-af83-7fb727368263Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 03:45:46 1100message-id: [EMAIL PROTECTED]**The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help** **The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
Re: [WSG] Your email requires verification verify#a6vQxgsxnTQ2Ky73eCXlkHoHksHXd3PV
OMG, a list of web proffesionals non-the-less! On 12/12/05, Natalie Buxton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can People PLEASE stop replying to this rubbish email.The list does NOT require you to reply. Can an Admin please take care of it? On 12/13/05, Fenguly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 写道:Due to the volume of Spam around the internet, and in the interests of keeping the internet as spam-free as possible, unfortunately, the message you sent requires that you verify that you are a real live human being and not a spam source. To complete this verification, simply reply to this message and leave the subject line intact.Full apologies to those legitimate messages that are being verified, but, you will only need to verify once! Thanks for your assistance in helping to clear the internet of spam! The headers of the message sent from your address are show below:From wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Mon Dec 12 12:04:07 2005Received: from [ 216.119.112.83] (helo= mail.webboy.net) by spirit.premierservers.com with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1Elr5p-0001Il-0y for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:04:07 -0500From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgMIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; charset=Windows-1252; boundary=SM_c877dea0-6c92-451d-af83-7fb727368263Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 03:45:46 1100message-id: [EMAIL PROTECTED]**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help** ** The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help**
Re: [WSG] Pipe separated lists
Geoff Pack wrote: Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: ...I'm just not sure it makes really good sense to add any kind of separators between links since they don't add any value from a usability point of view. They are just visuals that may come out as noise. I would agree, but for the fact that it violates WAI guideline 10.5: http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#tech-divide-links That 'until user agents' is a bit vague though. Anyone know? I've heard arguments that 10.4 (place-holding characters in edit boxes) is redundant now. AFAIK: 'user agents (including assistive technologies)' are past the until point for most of those checkpoints by now. Not all users may have upgraded their user agents though, so whether one should focus on 'user agents' or 'users' may be the question here. WAI say 'user agents', and I'm not going to argue with them as long as my 'users' say a particular solution is OK :-) --- Basically, I think navigation links should be contained, marked up or simply texted in such a way, that it is clear on all levels (css/no css/assistive technology/whatever) that they _are_ navigation links and not just links. I don't see the need for lists or any particular solution, as long as the uniqueness of nav-links is clear. I don't think we have a working nav-element that will solve all problems once and for all, so we just have to find the most usable, and hopefully semantic, solution for each case as we go along. I do *not* think creating noise is a good option - regardless of WAI, and I clearly do not believe in styling for 'css off'. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
I guess your assertion hinges on how one interprets the word should. Perhaps I am English-challenged, but I always took should to have a suggestive or advisory connotation, while shall or must are obligatory :-) One quick comment on this... I always write must in draft policy documents; but the higher-ups change them all to should before the final version. I am told that should is Policy-Speak for must, since it allows for discretion in considered instances. Basically, it means for all intents and purposes, you must not do this on pain of death but there is wiggle room to plead your case if greater evil might occur by following the rule. Personally I'd keep must and let people sort it out for themselves, because you should never suggest the rules are still being followed if they're being broken. But policy speak dictates should. In any case, we are dealing with a language (English, that is) which produced the rule I before E except when it's not. I know, it used to be ...before C but that's not actually true (weird isn't it). Crazy language :) h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Al Sparber wrote: I do agree that English is a crazy language - but that's as far as I go :-) The gent from Harvard provide the link to the W3C's definition of should, which seems to jive with mine. As for a standards-based page, agreeing that it is not a hard and fast rule that tables be banned for layout, can you present some logical arguments against this page - keeping strictly within the context of standards: http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/zealotry/linear_basics.htm Well, I don't think you can argue against it Al. The use of Bowie is a masterstroke. If you look at his various guises - vis: the thin white duke, aladdin sane, the young americans, his berlin period, for example - quite clearly they are thematic implementations of Bowie qua Bowie. How he's handled the ownership issues is a model of simultaneously working within, and subverting, the dominant capitalist paradigm. The importance of this, as you say, cannot be understated. Well done on presenting a complex notion so concisely. Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Could CSS be used to display that two-column table layout as a single column? Say. for small screen devices like PDA's or XDA's? Seems to be a flaw of table-based layouts and crosses platform-independence off the list... correct me if I'm wrong (I usually am)... Regards, Miles. As for a standards-based page, agreeing that it is not a hard and fast rule that tables be banned for layout, can you present some logical arguments against this page - keeping strictly within the context of standards: http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/zealotry/linear_basics.htm Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
G'day
Miles Tillinger wrote:
Could CSS be used to display that two-column table layout as a single
column?
td { display:block; }
Works in Firefox and Opera (Windows).
Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites
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Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
On 12/13/05, Miles Tillinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could CSS be used to display that two-column table layout as a single column? Say. for small screen devices like PDA's or XDA's? Seems to be a flaw of table-based layouts and crosses platform-independence off the list... correct me if I'm wrong (I usually am)... A smart person took a 5 column table and made this: http://icant.co.uk/csstablegallery/index.php?css=60 Of course, PDA support means it has to work without CSS, since most PDA's don't support CSS. Using P7's page, you would have to serve up another layout to handheld devices, or just swallow the platform dependency. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
