Re: [WSG] Downloading Fonts
macs can run windows fonts as well. There may be conflicts though if you run the same font from both os's simultaneously though. but loading fonts can be a resource burden as they all load into RAM at startup. I recommend the excellent and free Linotype http://www.linotype.com/fontexplorerX Font ExplorerX to open and close fonts as required. Like iTunes for fonts. Also available for windows users. On 09/12/2008, at 07:33 , David Hucklesby wrote: On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Marvin Hunkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi. rebuilding my site. and i have the following fonts in my style sheet. georgia, century school book, courrier, new courrier, comic ms, and others. but i notice, that on my local hard disk, or when i did have it on the web, but closed it for copyright issues. it was only displaying arial. did try searching on google. but found a couple of sites, but did not work. so where can i download fonts for my site? On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 13:12:36 +1100, James Ducker replied: As a general rule you cannot use non-system fonts on the web, as the end user needs to have them installed as well (I think this is what you're asking?). One workaround is to use sIFR ( http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/sifr/ ). Also, here is a list of fonts that are generally considered to be web safe: http://web.mit.edu/jmorzins/www/fonts.html Umm. Most of the fonts Marvin lists are available on most computers. I think he is saying that he does not have them on *his* computer, so wants to download them so he can see how each affects his design. I am on Mac, and would like to install some Windows-only fonts for myself. Anyone? Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
standards compliance should not be confused with WCAG conformance.
HTML is a standard WCAG is a guidance that people use as if it were a
standard, which could easily be a standard but is effectively not
one. However, complying with WCAG confers added benefits which
standards compliance creators strive for.
On 29/11/2008, at 09:22 , Stuart Foulstone wrote:
It may validate, but valid code is just a pre-requisite to achieving
standards compliance.
On Fri, November 28, 2008 8:43 pm, Dave Hall wrote:
On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 13:07 +, Stuart Foulstone wrote:
Blinking text is against standards in itself, so how can you do it
in a
standards compliant way?
Using the sample I posted - see below. That validates.
Cheers
Dave
On Fri, November 28, 2008 10:45 am, Dave Hall wrote:
!-- ... --
head
style type=text/css
/* ... */
.blink{
text-decoration: blink;
}
/* ... */
/style
!-- ... --
/head
body
!-- ... --
span class=blinkmy blinking test/span
!-- ... --
/body
instead of
!-- ... --
blinkmy blinking test/blink
!-- ... --
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Re: [WSG] Question on servers and Email campaign
As a professional I would advise your client to run a mil from this supplier. There are plenty of ways to send email marketing safely, securely, intelligently and usefully, like Campaign Monitor, mailbuild, and other conscientious, responsible mailers. There is nothing more sinister than buying a mailing list that requires root access. Joe On 12/11/2008, at 11:41 AM, Graphics Web Designing, LLC wrote: I am sorry to ask this question but I am very curious as to how others feel about this. I have a client that is purchasing E-mail listings from a company called expedia mail and I Was called and asked for my server's root access information so that they can download their Software onto my server for my clients email campaign. I refuse to give anyone access to MY server let alone my root access. Am I being rude and uncooperative on this or am I right? According to the lady I spoke with she claims that I am uncooperative and that they have many Companies give out there root access information to their servers. I just can NOT put my other clients at risk and give some other company access to my server Where they have full access to my server and all of my clients and my servers information and in Addition they can do as they please once I give them my root access information. Again, I would like to thank all for reading this post and I do hope this is not against WSG standards. But I am really needing confirmation that I am not losing it and that I was right in protecting My clients as well as my server. Sherri Graphic’s Web Designing, LLC (941)876-4609 (941)889-8336 Cell Have a great day. http://www.webgraphicdesigning.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] li hover bg preloader
you mean on hover (i.e.: a:hover) not on rollover (that's javaScript), don't you? Pedantic Joe On 07/11/2008, at 12:49 PM, kevin mcmonagle wrote: ah yes i had forgotten about that, thanks. Henrik Madsen wrote: I have done this previously: Have 1 background image and change its position (via css) on rollover (that way the whole thing is loaded initially). http://www.igenerator.com.au Henrik Madsen *Generator* +61 8 9387 1250 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] www.igenerator.com.au http://www.igenerator.com.au On 07/11/2008, at 10:27 AM, kevin mcmonagle wrote: Hhi, Whats the cleanest way to create a css prelaoder for li hover states. Heres the site in question. http://cosanglas.com/ -best kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] I am away on leave [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
*SIGH* On 08/11/2008, at 7:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am away on leave returning on Monday, 10 November 2008, if you have a request for Customs web admin please send it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards Nathan Nathan Franklin Web Admin | IT Applications | Australian Customs Service Ph: (02) 6275 6357 | http://www.customs.gov.au http://www.customs.gov.au/ IMPORTANT: * This transmission is intended for the use of the addressee only and might contain sensitive or legally privileged information. If you are NOT the intended recipient, you are notified that any use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you receive this transmission in error, please notify the author immediately by telephone and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. * The Australian Customs Service DOES NOT AUTHORISE the recipient to further disclose this email or its contents without permission of the originator. * Unsolicited commercial emails MUST NOT be forwarded to the originator of this transmission unless prior consent has been given. *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] URL length best practices [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
yes, good point. I was making a subtle stab at the .htm versus .html discussion in here recently. but given my 'druthers, yes, I'd personally drop all file extensions in URLs completely if I could. Joe On 05/11/2008, at 4:04 PM, Hassan Schroeder wrote: Joe Ortenzi wrote: the long and friendly URL is really for the final page, which should not bury a full product list so deeply and should be titled / product_list.html anyway. Uh, how about more properly '/product_list' (or '/product-list') -- your customers don't care about the underlying '.xyz' technology, and `Cool URIs don't change` http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI, or so I've heard. :-) -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who are the Away on leave Notices from?
can we ask all Out of Office notification users to set their notices to only do this once per address per week (so repeated emails do not generate a mailstorm) rather than for each email received or perhaps get the mailing list itself to try and filter out the out of office replies. I agree it is disconcerting. Joe On 06/11/2008, at 8:20 AM, David Fuller :: magickweb wrote: Brett While I agree they can be annoying, they are quite a useful thing for normal circumstances. They are generally set up by the person who owns the email address (sometimes by their network admin etc). Basically say if you were going away for 2 weeks, but didn’t want people thinking you were ignoring them (handy for work etc) you would set up the auto responder with that message. That’s about it.. Hope that helps. David Fuller Developer magickweb Web:http://www.magick.com.au Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] image001.jpg From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brett Patterson Sent: Thursday, 6 November 2008 7:06 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Who are the Away on leave Notices from? Are these away on leave notices from people who manage the webstandardsgroup.org site? Or individual people? It is kinda getting annoying? -- Brett P. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who are the Away on leave Notices from?
this would be a useful and important addition to the mailing guidelines I would have to say, yes. Joe On 06/11/2008, at 8:47 AM, Brett Patterson wrote: Oh. I have always just set mine up to not send out for specific e- mail addresses. Sorry, did not mean to exasperate the issue. I did not know it was one. On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Paul Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just auto replies from list members away on leave (who have set their 'out of office' setting to 'on') It is annoying, but in saying that I'm probably guilty of it at times ;) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Brett P. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who are the Away on leave Notices from?
Of course OOOR notices are important but it is a trivial matter to set a list of addresses or domains this notice does not affect OR to send the OOOR to each email address only once in a week, so the sender knows you're out but does not have to receive your notice everyday. Joe On 06/11/2008, at 8:47 AM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Fuller :: magickweb Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 1:20 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Who are the Away on leave Notices from? Brett While I agree they can be annoying, they are quite a useful thing for normal circumstances. They are generally set up by the person who owns the email address (sometimes by their network admin etc). Basically say if you were going away for 2 weeks, but didn't want people thinking you were ignoring them (handy for work etc) you would set up the auto responder with that message. Yeah, we have the same problem with people who request a read receipt and those who choose to reply yes. ;-) -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who are the Away on leave Notices from? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
but the point of IT is to make life easier. So it is the responsibility of the OOON setter to make heir OOON not mailstorm their lists and add more email to the already massive amount mail servers have to deal with. No to mention, this discussion would then be filtered out, so you wouldn't have been able to participate in this discussion. I believe in stopping the waste at source (conservation) over trying to fix it further down the line (recycling) as it is less work and a lighter load that way. joe On 06/11/2008, at 8:55 AM, Chris Vickery wrote: If you're using outlook just set up a rule. Something like... Where the subject line contains out of the office or autoreply then move it to (trash or junk mail or a subfolder) Works most of the time. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Bennett Sent: Thursday, 6 November 2008 8:32 AM To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: RE: [WSG] Who are the Away on leave Notices from? Just auto replies from list members away on leave (who have set their 'out of office' setting to 'on') It is annoying, but in saying that I'm probably guilty of it at times ;) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** WARNING: The information contained in this email may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use or copying of any part of this information is unauthorised. If you have received this email in error, we apologise for any inconvenience and request that you notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this email, together with any attachments. *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
Hi Several people are misunderstanding why some of us are challenging the use of Contribute (please note, challenging, not refusing) and why a consultant might discover (please note: discover, not insist) where a CMS might be a better solution for the client in the long run and better meets their own expressed business goals and defined measurable strategy (note: in line with their business goals and internal resources, not dictated to rudely). So please understand my position in this matter (I can't speak for others) when I say a simple CMS might achieve the goals you already have expressed (easy to edit, client stays outside of code, accessible and SEO friendly pages) and is worth considering and suggesting. All I said was it is your job to find the best fit of technology that meets their stated goals and available resources and not bow to their not necessarily wide-enough research. To reflect on the example you stated, where the client clicks a button on the existing site to edit the copy of the page therein; well what about posting news items in the site simply by send in an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] without even having to visit the site,which is possible with some CMS's or using a blog to increase presence and content interest which wordpress (installed in a hour and can move a large site's 50 pages of content into within a day) could easily mnage. The point was not to roll over and use the technology they request but to dig deeper into their business goals and resources and aims for the site, step back and analyse their needs, then return with a best fit for their time, aims, strategy and budget. Joe On 04/11/2008, at 1:02 AM, Susan Grossman wrote: On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 5:53 AM, James Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Guys, A client wants to use Adobe Contribute for content management. Is there any point writing standards complient code or will contribute butcher the code anyway? Can I use php at all with contribute? Would love to be able to include html files using php to avoid having to change loads of pages everytime navigation changes etc. James I do free work for non-profits, and many of them ask about using Contribute. A CMS won't work for them because most of them have a small existing website that they got someone to do at some point in the last few years and they're trying to change it/add to it/figure out how to do anything to it. They aren't willing to start from scratch and have a CMS set up for them, nor do the volunteers want to learn all about editing in a role based application, no matter how easy it is. These are the people who Contribute is a lifesaver for. I go in and clean up their stuff, make it into PHP and design includes they can't accidently edit and show them how to use Contribute by surfing to their web site and clicking the Contribute button. TaDa - they can edit, sans butchering. Yes there are better solutions out there, but there's nothing wrong with this solution. I don't feel it's my job to tell them that I won't help them unless they get on board with the latest and greatest. I'm here to help them make sure their web site is accessible and that they can change text on the few pages they'll update. For me, the client is always right. They know their business, their people, their limitations. That doesn't mean I can't say, Yes, though we could also do that by but in the end, they make the final decisions and a lot of the time I don't agree on everything, but they call the shots, and we have to be gracious. I try to teach as I go , but I don't force my clients to learn if they don't want to. And you might be surprised how many don't want to. -- Susan R. Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] URL length best practices
other than making sense and having a strong connection with the page the content is on, there is no direct reason, other than being a bit sensible about it, I wouldn't advise testing out the 2048 characters. On 05/11/2008, at 9:32 AM, James Ellis wrote: RFC 2616 (HTTP/1.1) doesn't set a maximum length on a url but I think our friend IE limits it to about 2048 characters (see google). Either way, there is no good reason I can see to limit a url path to a certain number of characters. Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] URL length best practices
I said no direct reason, but you point is a good reason to consider short URLs but this is not always possible, but yes, typablity is a good thing too. On 05/11/2008, at 11:27 AM, silky wrote: On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: other than making sense and having a strong connection with the page the content is on, there is no direct reason, other than being a bit sensible about it, I wouldn't advise testing out the 2048 characters. of course there is a good reason: so it's typable. not every url should required to be clicked to be gotten to. -- noon silky http://skillsforvilla.tumblr.com/ http://www.themonkeynet.com/armada/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] URL length best practices [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Sorry for being a bit off topic but. I think you missed a point about friendly URLs For each of these examples you state, you really don't want to burden your marketing team with urls like your example: www.chrisandhispetstore.com/what_i_keep_in_stock/supplies_for_birds/cages_and_ornaments/full_product_list.htm when any sensible marketer will tell you: www.chrisandhispetstore.com/products is where you should point them, and then let them find cages in one click on that page., maybe even at www.chrisandhispetstore.com/products/cages the long and friendly URL is really for the final page, which should not bury a full product list so deeply and should be titled / product_list.html anyway. BAD IA IMHO Joe OK, in marketing terms you can easily create your own TinyURL by redirecting vimportant traffic through a rewrite. On 05/11/2008, at 12:40 PM, Chris Vickery wrote: More reasons to keep 'em short: 1. Makes it easy to quote URL (maybe over the phone) 2. I've seen a few email or publication programs break URLs where there's a line return, so breaks the hyperlink 3. Makes layout difficult for desktop publishers and marketing ie. www.chrisandhispetstore.com/what_i_keep_in_stock/supplies_for_birds/cages_and_ornaments/full_product_list.htm 4. If it's longer than the width of the address bar then the whole URL is not visible. Accessibility isn't just about clean code and text to speech readers. It's about good IA and making everything generally better to get at. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of silky Sent: Wednesday, 5 November 2008 11:28 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] URL length best practices On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: other than making sense and having a strong connection with the page the content is on, there is no direct reason, other than being a bit sensible about it, I wouldn't advise testing out the 2048 characters. of course there is a good reason: so it's typable. not every url should required to be clicked to be gotten to. -- noon silky http://skillsforvilla.tumblr.com/ http://www.themonkeynet.com/armada/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** WARNING: The information contained in this email may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use or copying of any part of this information is unauthorised. If you have received this email in error, we apologise for any inconvenience and request that you notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this email, together with any attachments. *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
I think that was the point of both myself and Dave, Todd. Mark's vitriolic rant seemed to miss the point that the technology comes after you discover what the business requires, what their resources are, what the requirements of the site will be over the next 12-24 months, etc. not just say OK to contribute because the client says so before discovering much more important things And as for budget, well, Contribute at $99 is more expensive than many CMSs (twice the cost of the powerful EE and $99 more than Drupal). As you say, a god consultant will discover why they want Contribute and, upon discovering those needs, either continue with Contribute or offer a solution that meets their needs better, should that be the case, but it is the needs of the project that need to be discovered first, I'd have thought. Joe On 03/11/2008, at 12:21 AM, Todd Budnikas wrote: with respect to both sides here, I have had numerous clients come to me requesting Contribute as a solution. I would say the reason, in every case i believe, is the cost. It's a 1 time fee of $99. I imagine, that if you can offer something comparable or cheaper to them, they would appreciate the recommendation and scrap Contribute if the other product(s) worked better, were easier to maintain and implement, etc. I would guess here that the client isn't dictating technology, but budget for CMS. I mean, what are the chances they've used a bunch of solutions, and settled that Contribute is the best and meets their workflow? My recommendation is to try something like http://www.cushycms.com/ which is also free and is a hosted solution. I've used this with pretty good success. It's not without it's limitation, but it's extremely easy to use and met the needs of one of my clients. You obviously could go with a more common solution like Expression Engine, or Wordpress, etc. I would find out why your client wants to use Contribute, and if you'd rather not use it, then your job is to find something comparable or better (hopefully for the same cost or less) and state your case. Mark Harris wrote: Joe Ortenzi wrote: Contribute is not about content management as much as it is about allowing an in-house web team to share tasks without a proper CMS deployed. Thus your coder can code and the content writer can write but it can be all wrapped within a team. This is, frankly, Web 1.0, and your time and their money is better served by getting a simple CMS deployed that meets with their scope and strategy and will be easier to manage for everyone, client included. With respect, this is so much bollocks. The manner of deployment is always the client's choice. If you can offer her something better, by all means offer, but it's arrogant to tell the client you have to do it this way. Many clients won't have an in-house web team - they'll have one person to whom maintaining the website is only 1/4 of their job. Some outfits are still coming to grips with how they should be using the web and need baby steps. While it's a designer's job to help educate them, you can't drag them kicking and screaming into something they're not ready for. Regards Mark Harris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
Mark, you seem to misunderstand what Dave and I are saying and maybe you so angry about something you can't even see you're contradicting yourself and claiming dave and I are saying different things when your examples, reflected back at us, clearly show paralell, not conflicting statements. In addition you seem to think I swan into an organisation and tell them how to run THEIR business, which is the last thing I do. As Dave says, a good website provider works in partnership with a business, and discovers and recommends technology that gets these business needs covered, You are confusing two sets of business aims, one is the client requiring a website that serves his business aims and two a supplier of said website who's business aim is to be paid for a good service to the client, which sometimes means giving them what they need (by working in close consultation with them) rather than what they think they want, which as you seem to be saying, they may not necessarily know, if their business knowledge is not about the web. And you know, my mechanic WILL tell me how to drive my car if I'm doing it wrong. stop riding the clutch, shift gears at a lower rev to save petrol, let the engine warm for a few moments before giving it a load, are all things you pay your mechanic good money for so your car runs better for longer, the expert advice he is good for. Mark, you misread both myself and Dave terribly badly. Joe On 02/11/2008, at 9:41 PM, Mark Harris wrote: Dave Lane wrote: I'm sorry, Mark, but that is not a winning strategy in business. Dave, the business decision is not that of the web designer. While web design may be his business, it's not the business of his client. As a web developer, you *must* design for maintainability. Anything else is a disservice to both your business and your customer. Not arguing, but it must also work for the client, otherwise you are merely building ongoing work for yourself, in doing the maintenance. Offer options, by all means, but the result *must* be within the client's capability set or it won't get used. How much value have you then added to the client's business by imposing your own ideas on their naivety? The customer is not always right. The customer hires you because they perceive you to have expertise they don't, and they trust your skill and judgement on their behalf. If they don't have that respect for your ability, they're not the right customer for you. Fine. Say so and get out, but if you take the job, you take the constraints and responsibilities that come with it. I'm not saying that you should tell them their wrong, but you should explain the shortcomings of the methods they request and explain the advantages of the tools you've chosen... if you can't do that then you probably haven't thought very carefully about choosing tools. That's not what Joe was advising. What he said was: you should never let the client specify the technology, that's YOUR job The technology you decide to deploy should be a result of having defined the strategy and scope of a project and identified the resources for ongoing content and support. which is a pretty tall ask for a web designer, not to mention arrogant. Do you get your mechanic to tell you how to drive your car? He's far more experienced with vehicles than you, so he should know, right? Ultimately, a business must select its technologies (the smallest set possible to do the job well), become expert in them, and then maintain those skills for the length of their relationship with their customers. See, it's the whole become expert with them that's the problem. They don't have the desire to become expert in something that is a commodity to them. Many companies don't have web specialists on staff. If they're lucky, they have a librarian, who does records management, maybe a little DTP and gets stuff onto the web. They don't *want* a web designer on board, or they'd be hiring one instead of farming the work out to you. If that's how they see it, that's their business. Myself, I'd try to get them to see that it's a major strategic part of their future business *but* if they won't go there, I'm going to build them something they feel comfortable with, with an outline of what it could become, if appropriate. I'm not going to push a company into Web 2.0 if they still believe a little man sits in the printer pushing out paper. I completely agree with Joe's statement - using an app like Contribute is a step backwards in most cases, both for the customer and for the web. If it works for them, it's their call. A simple site set up by someone who knows what they're doing can be managed just fine with Contribute. It's not likely to win any awards (and it probably won't do a lot for their bottom line) but we don't always get to paint the Mona Lisa. Sometimes,
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
With respect Mark, Please do not misrepresent me. I did not say the client had to do it my way, to the contrary, I said in my post, in a portion you did not include, that the technology used must be derived from a business strategy and a needs scope of the site. To wit: The technology you decide to deploy should be a result of having defined the strategy and scope of a project and identified the resources for ongoing content and support. I never said all clients need to have a web team either, I just stated where, in my experience, Contribute would be useful and has aided workflow and has operated well. And I completely agree, no-one in their right mind would drag a client, child, dog or whatever, kicking and screaming towards improvement. But surely a client sees the benefit of being able to edit and create their own content, and one proposing Contribute already has this in mind. It is up to we professionals to show them an option that goes towards their own content supply, but in a more integrated fashion than Contribute can manage. Joe On 02/11/2008, at 4:43 PM, Mark Harris wrote: Joe Ortenzi wrote: Contribute is not about content management as much as it is about allowing an in-house web team to share tasks without a proper CMS deployed. Thus your coder can code and the content writer can write but it can be all wrapped within a team. This is, frankly, Web 1.0, and your time and their money is better served by getting a simple CMS deployed that meets with their scope and strategy and will be easier to manage for everyone, client included. With respect, this is so much bollocks. The manner of deployment is always the client's choice. If you can offer her something better, by all means offer, but it's arrogant to tell the client you have to do it this way. Many clients won't have an in-house web team - they'll have one person to whom maintaining the website is only 1/4 of their job. Some outfits are still coming to grips with how they should be using the web and need baby steps. While it's a designer's job to help educate them, you can't drag them kicking and screaming into something they're not ready for. Regards Mark Harris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
Hi James Oddly, someone asked a similar question today in LinkedIn. http://www.linkedin.com/answers/technology/web-development/TCH_WDD/355859-15475515 Contribute is not about content management and you should never let the client specify the technology, that's YOUR job The technology you decide to deploy should be a result of having defined the strategy and scope of a project and identified the resources for ongoing content and support. It may be possible to use PHP for what you say, but maybe you wan to look at SHTML instead for server side scripting. I understand Dreamweaver is better with PHP than it used to be but it can easily go pear shaped if the client is not either severely restricted or understands HTML well. Expectations may be shattered if the client has seen a sales pitch of Adobe Contribute and thinks they can do what they like with a page. Then they'll want the template modified when they can't then the IA gets messed up, then the nav needs changing, then they don't realise it's better to add news rather than replace it (for SEO) an the meta no longer gels with the page content I could go on Contribute is not about content management as much as it is about allowing an in-house web team to share tasks without a proper CMS deployed. Thus your coder can code and the content writer can write but it can be all wrapped within a team. This is, frankly, Web 1.0, and your time and their money is better served by getting a simple CMS deployed that meets with their scope and strategy and will be easier to manage for everyone, client included. joe On 02/11/2008, at 12:53 AM, James Farrell wrote: Hi Guys, A client wants to use Adobe Contribute for content management. Is there any point writing standards complient code or will contribute butcher the code anyway? Can I use php at all with contribute? Would love to be able to include html files using php to avoid having to change loads of pages everytime navigation changes etc. James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Web Standards Meetup London July Meeting
Morning Standardistas I'd like to announce the next instalment in the Web Standards Meetup London July Meeting For those of you living and working in London UK, please check out: http://webstandards.meetup.com/130/calendar/8110079/ and hopefully come along for an evening of web chat and beer (or wine or juice) This will be my penultimate event in London before I join the Sydney crew in September so it would be great to get as many of you as possible around. Thanks. Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] html vs. html - neither.
Sounds like Red Dot... On Jun 20 2008, at 11:25, Rob Enslin wrote: I must say that I find it quite alarming that any professional web developers believe that a CMS must produce URLs for dynamically generated pages (not files) which say .htm or .html on the end. Dave, it's not that they (CMS vendor) believes it needs to be done or indeed compulsory, it's merely a case of 'this is what our system produces by deflault'. I just happened to notice the change and flagged it up with them as simply asked why? Incidently, in the CMS I'm refering to it allows the administrator to remove extensions if desired. So, I could have http://mysite.com/ register as a web page. Rob 2008/6/20 Dave Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I must say that I find it quite alarming that any professional web developers believe that a CMS must produce URLs for dynamically generated pages (not files) which say .htm or .html on the end. My colleagues and I have adopted sites built by such developers, and I can tell you that misconceptions like the necessity of .htm or .html suffices were only the tip of iceberg. If a site is actually a legacy static site made up of files, then . might be relevant (although setting up webserver rules to abstract away file suffice is pretty trivial, and it's much nicer for URL readability and SEO), but nowadays if you're building a dynamic site on a decent CMS, adding the .html (never .htm - that demonstrates dubious taste in server OSs) to the end of URLs for dynamically generated content is painfully old school and, as the W3C and other posters have pointed out, quite unnecessary - sort of like a www on the front of a web URL is (or should be). Dave Rob Enslin wrote: Hi peeps, I recently started noticing that our CMS system generated .htm pages where previously the system produced .html pages. I questioned the support staff and was told that the W3C deemed .html as non-standard file extensions (or rather .htm were more-widely accepted as the standard) Is this true? Any thoughts? Cheers, Rob -- Rob Enslin Blog: http://enslin.co.uk Twitter: http://twitter.com/robenslin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Dave Lane = Egressive Ltd = [EMAIL PROTECTED] = m: +64 21 229 8147 p: +64 3 9633733 = Linux: it just tastes better = nosoftwarepatents http://egressive.com we only use open standards: http://w3.org Effusion Group Founding Member === http://effusiongroup.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Rob Enslin Blog: http://enslin.co.uk Twitter: http://twitter.com/robenslin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] html vs. html
Ultimately, if the server is configured right, it shouldn't matter, but standardistas are sticklers for detail./ feel able to reveal the vendor name? Curious Joe On Jun 19 2008, at 18:08, Rob Enslin wrote: Many thanks for all the input. Now for the fun part... go back to the CMS vendor who made the claim and ask for some proof ;-) Have a great day/night. Rob 2008/6/19 Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Quoting Patrick Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Jonathan D'mello To go off on a tangent Patrick, this is getting to be a rather common excuse from some developers. If they don't want to change code, they say it will break W3C standards. Sorry, I just re-read this and realised that I completely got the wrong conversation. I thought for some reason that this was in reply to the [WSG] Marking Up Poems discussion, and that it was in defense of not following standards. Crikey... Profuse apologies! I obviously haven't had enough coffee this morning...disregard my passionate reply rant... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Rob Enslin Blog: http://enslin.co.uk Twitter: http://twitter.com/robenslin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] MA in web development
Well my first thought Marius is why you feel a need for a division between scientific and artistic? Much of web design, website creation, development, whatever you want to call it, I would much more closely describe as something more akin to industrial and or product design, where much more than what happens on the server needs to be addresses. User-centred design for example starts with lots of study with the userbase in order to discern what people would be expecting from the organisation or campaign and their website. This is a starting point for a website and has nothing to do with marketing and everything to do with creating a useful, usable and successful site. But this is neither design or scientific, (although there are things being measured and described here). As I mentioned earlier, the concepts underpinning web development and design (should I try to coin a new term of web creator?) are not new or time sensitive. HTML 4 and XHTML have been around for many years and will be around for the next 5 for sure and any coder worth hi salt has already started to look at HTML 5 and XHTML 2 and trying to understand how to use it. User-centred design has been around for decades nd will continue to o so. Apache isn't a new thing and JS and PHP are long in the tooth servers aren't going away and people still have expectations at the HCI (Human Computer Interface) which may look a little different, but remain essentially unchanged for the last decade at least. So, to reiterate, any MA course should provide the tools to fish rather than the fish itself and should not allow itself to be providing significant am amounts of training in concepts that will easily age. Joe On Jun 12 2008, at 22:36, Marius Milcher wrote: I'm studying BSc Business Information Technology at London South Bank University. It has been around for nearly 10 years now. There is an MSc available too...[1] At an undergraduate level we study, at length, Systems Analysis, Information Architecture , Dynamic Programming languages (ASP, PHP) alongside Usability and HCI. An initial question I have, with regard to an MA in Web Development, is whether a scientific approach should be taken (in the form of an MSc) or whether a an artistic/design approach should be taken (in the form of an MA). Personally, if dealing with web 'development' then a scientific approach would be desired. I think this might be a matter of debate though, given the current and ever evolving landscape of web development and the fact is is still an emerging discipline in many respects, as has been mentioned regarding standards. I think that the subject of Web Development is an extremely exciting one and one and one that I could be persuaded to pursue. However, I feel, given its rapid evolution and emergence, any course structure that is agreed upon could potentially be outdated by the time it comes to teaching it... Maybe in true spirit of the collaborative nature of Web 2.0 this course could be structured and administered through wikis and taught in an open-source way... Given the webs emergence from academia. But that I fear, is maybe a pipe-dream... Thoughts?? Regards, Marius Milcher [1] LSBU BIT Course info http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/bcim/progs/bit/ -- Marius G. Milcher Web Design IT Consultancy -- w: http://www.mariusmilcher.com e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] t: +44(0)7961 436 733 skype: mgmilcher -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
then you need to be aware at build time that when javascript off, and nested navigation is therefore expanded in order to provide equal access to features for people without dependence to javascript, the design needs to allow for this. having the nav overlap content is pretty unnecessary anyway. Sorry but bad design, planning and and architecture is not an excuse... You could, for example, not have it popout in the first place, negating the need to have an alternative solution for others. You could, also, for example, only show subnav within a section, negating the need for popouts. If your architecture is clear and obvious, and you have plenty of clear pointers to the content sections, the popout subnav becomes less necessary. On Jun 6 2008, at 16:18, Darren West wrote: Joe said: Therefore if javascript is off, any descended subnav should display in it's expanded state. I agree with this pattern for some scenerios, for example with tabbed panels, but (depending on the design) surely with drop down navigation it would cause usability issues with the expanded states for all drop downs overlapping each other and other content *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
This is not a IE5 question, it is whether the navigation element should depend on Javascript. Navigation should not rely on javascript to display. Therefore if javascript is off, any descended subnav should display in it's expanded state. Plenty of examples of this all over the net o no need to go to far into it. joe On Jun 6 2008, at 15:47, Rachel Radford wrote: It sounds like a lot of work for something that you are purely guessing? As your audience is already part of the community that you're doing the website for, it should be easy to find out a typical setup. Many old people I know aren't using IE5 - either they aren't using anything or they have a computer that someone else, such as their children or grandchildren, has set up for them and is relatively new. Put the work into finding out more about your audience, as IE5 may not even need to be supported to that level. As a backup I would put a list of links to all the subpages on the parent page (where the drop downs originate from), so if there does happen to be someone using IE5 with JS turned off, then they can still easily navigate to all the pages (although it adds another step). Rach :o) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of James Jeffery Sent: Fri 06/06/2008 10:48 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript Maybe i am being a little bit picky with this. I have a suckerfish dropdown, as i feel it is the best approach for cross-browser (but not A grade) dropdowns. The website i am working on is a youth centre's. The target audience is the community, which can be young or very old. The very old may be using IE 5 on older computers (at a guess). If they have JS disabled and are using IE 5 then they cannot view the navigation links. Whats your views on the best way around this? I was thinking about sing PHP to determine what browser the user is using and if JS is enabled. If its IE 5 and it is not enabled then when a user clicks a link from the navigation menu the page will load but under the navigation will be another div that lists the links uder that sub heading. - | nav nav nav nav nav nav nav | - | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | - all the other content goes on as normal Only users who are using a browser that does not support the hover psudeo selector on anything other than a elements will see that box. It will be generated using PHP before the page loads. I was thinking about doing that for all the users, and have that displaying regardless, but that may add confusion to the user experience i feel. Anyone ideas? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] AJAX short courses london
so where else can you be taught in bed for £50* (*stop sniggering in the back there!) and as for accreditation, some of my best developers were not accredited and their experience counted for much more than any course could provide. They are much better at independent thinking, self- study for things they need to know more about, and less likely to get stuck in a conceptual rut. Joe On May 30 2008, at 22:39, James Jeffery wrote: Only problem with the Lynda.com DVDs is sometimes they can be outdated. Although, this one is £50 and looks good. I might actually buy this, i like watching the movies when in bed. http://movielibrary.lynda.com/html/modPage.asp?ID=480 On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 9:51 PM, Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree. I have rarely seen any course in web technologies that you couldn't get further for much less money with either a video tutorial from places like lynda.com or from good how to books from great publishers like new riders, friends of ed, o'reilleys, etc. you can study at your own pace, replay and review difficult bits, skip over others, and the resource stays with you.. On May 27 2008, at 05:28, Jennie K wrote: If you are not after accreditation try this website www.lynda.com - it's all online and you study at your own pace. I've recommended the training to numerous people and they have all said it is of good quality. You can try some of the free courses before committing - there are also books and cds if you don't like the online version. On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 11:20 PM, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I hope this is on topic. I'm trying to find a short course on AJAX in london and having troubles finding one that is of a reasonable price (IE- less than £300 for a half day). Could anyone recommend me one or possibly a good school to look into? Thanks for any help, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] AJAX short courses london
I agree. I have rarely seen any course in web technologies that you couldn't get further for much less money with either a video tutorial from places like lynda.com or from good how to books from great publishers like new riders, friends of ed, o'reilleys, etc. you can study at your own pace, replay and review difficult bits, skip over others, and the resource stays with you.. On May 27 2008, at 05:28, Jennie K wrote: If you are not after accreditation try this website www.lynda.com - it's all online and you study at your own pace. I've recommended the training to numerous people and they have all said it is of good quality. You can try some of the free courses before committing - there are also books and cds if you don't like the online version. On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 11:20 PM, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I hope this is on topic. I'm trying to find a short course on AJAX in london and having troubles finding one that is of a reasonable price (IE- less than £300 for a half day). Could anyone recommend me one or possibly a good school to look into? Thanks for any help, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
not to self advertise, Ian, but the group I organise, ( http:// webstandards.meetup.com/130/ ) has quite a few standards-keen PHP'ers, as does the PHP London group. But as others have mentioned, it really is te (X)HTML portion that matters for standards compliance, at least in this context. Joe On May 16 2008, at 16:32, Ian Chamberlain wrote: Fingers crossed this is not too far off topic; being a newby to PHP; any clues where I can find how-to's, snippets, libraries or even application suites built from PHP that are built to a good minimum standard please. I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE. Thanks Ian *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Multiple devices, same client
Attention London Standardistas! Once again, I will be hosting a Web Standards Meetup London at the Print Works, in Farringdon. Tonight, Tuesday at 7 PM. More detail at: http://webstandards.meetup.com/130/calendar/ Rough agenda for the day: While we are keen to support the latest browsers with the tightest standards, with more people using mobile devices (except for Jason ;-)! ) we will need to see a copy of our sites work for them as well, with a reasonable experience. How do we get our clients/ employers to understand this need alongside the usefulness and needs of complying with standards? Is it an additional pressure, or a parallel one? I'm hoping the Accessibility experts will show, so that we can discuss what their understanding for a mobile device might be. And how do we do UCD for mobile (since there is so much less to control) and are there a reasonable pool of users out there to test with yet? And finally, with all these sites needing to be more standards compliant and user-friendly out there, and many of them Gov sites and public services sites, should we be campaigning and challenging prize- winners and prize-givers to think of the standards before awarding or even considering websites? should we consider starting up our own grass roots prizes (or worst-of lists) to glorify stars or embarrass failures? Will that do for a agenda, Standardistas? See you down the Print Works, hopefully in the arch nearest the bar... (Anyone notice the irony of having a meting about digital publishing in a former print works? ;-) ) but otherwise at one of the tables to the right of the bar, in one of the nooks. I'll be the baldy with the macBook and a picture of a wasp!. Thanks for your attention. Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest (Out of office until Tuesday 1 April)
Congratulations! ;-) On Mar 27 2008, at 17:19, Mark Wooldridge wrote: Hi, I am currently away from the office and will return on Tuesday as a married man. I will attend to you email at that time. If the matter is urgent, please contact Elise Fitzgerald on 9268 2962 or [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am contactable on my mobile if my urgent attention is required, 0414 259 797... Note, I will not answer my phone during the ceremony, 4-5pm on Saturday. Regards, Mark. _ This message (including any attachments) is intended solely for the addressee named and may contain confidential and or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it and notify the sender. Views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, and are not necessarily the views of the Ministry of Transport (MoT). Whole or parts of this e-mail may be subject to copyright of the Ministry or third parties. You should only re-transmit, distribute or use the material for commercial purposes if you are authorised to do so. Please visit us http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au or http://www. 131500.info *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] why do some divs shrink wrap and others don't [OT?]
Please clarify dwain. have you got two examples, one shrink-wrapping (??) the other not? Do you mean one div will only be as large as the content within it and the other will retain a fixed size regardless of content? Joe On Mar 27 2008, at 05:07, dwain wrote: after my experience tonight i was wondering why some divs will shrink wrap their contents while others don't. any takers? dwain -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] London Web Standards meetup for March
Hello Standaristas! Particularly the London-based ones. Your humble servant here organises a regular monthly meetup for folks to discuss web-standards issues in general in the London central area. This month meets in a Farringdon pub (cheap beer, free WiFi) and promises to be an interesting one as I have quite a good selection of interested parties. You get to set the agenda and you get to shape the next meeting. Wehad a bit of an issue about comfortable and connected venues but the Print Works seems to hit the right note. Hope you'll agree. Full details are at: http://webstandards.meetup.com/130/ RSVP on the meetup page if you're interested. Thanks. Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Experience with Adobe Contribute
Hi Elizabeth The concept behind Contribute is that the designers/coders create the pages and place special codes within some portions of the HTML for others to write into, but not break the hopefully compliant code created. Contribute sees the code and only allows the writer to edit the boxes that are unlocked. Unfortunately they will also be exposed to code and may accidentally break the page as well. And the creation of new items is not permitted, more about editing existing content... The idea is to separate the content providers from the code, which is exemplary but the execution is misguided. What organisations generally need is not the ability to edit existing pages but to make new content available in a simple way. This is where a CMS comes in. I recommend it would be a far better exercise for you to find a reputable consultant to install a very simple CMS for them, after extensive discussions to discover exactly the kind of content they need to provide, and to also suggest improved types of content they didn't know they could provide. The CMS, if installed properly, would give them the freedom to express themselves fully without messing round in the, frankly, expert terrain of standards compliant code creation. Contribute, like it's parent Dreamweaver, is not standards compliant per se, it is only a tool that can assist you in making standards compliant code. You made an interesting point in that they have a convenient means to update the pages already - build on that and let them keep the convenience, but in a different environment. Understand what is convenient about the current method and ensure the proposed improvement retains a similar convenience. As for the CMS to recommend? I would want to perform the consultancy first as you need to know what they need to do, want to do and are able to do before hand but it could be anything from the very simple wordPress to something incredibly complex and powerful like Drupal or ExpressionEngine, all of which, in the right hands when installed and templated, can provide compliant code. You could even find a way to create something bespoke (my personal preference) using a framework or some good coders. Joe On Mar 1 2008, at 22:08, Elizabeth Spiegel wrote: Hi all I'm working to replace a horribly non-compliant website with a standards-compliant one for a non-profit organisation. The people who currently manage the site are a bit worried about moving away from their current host (who insists on the horrible template) because they find their current updating procedure convenient (it doesn't require any coding knowledge). I understand that Contribute would allow them to make changes to content without messing with the coding/navigation. Does anyone have experience with this product? Is it possible/easy to set up to maintain standards-compliance? Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***wi nmail.dat Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Linux Page Test Please
you need someone who is a good copywriter to fix your text and you need to use proper HTML entities for the odd characters. ..on the pricing page you need to fix your text For example: = “AllTurf SBR Crumb rubber infill “AllTurf Rubber curbing “AllTurf Fencing (6’ chain link) (Mini fields are a perfect fit for school yards, play yards, safe surface gym class, etc…) Mini field priced at $130,000 for complete turn-key installation*. * Turn-key installation includes site soil analysis, project design, = should have quote marks and odd characters rendered as HTML: = quot; amp; and your paragraphs should be properly constructed. = On Feb 27 2008, at 18:22, Joseph Taylor wrote: Good Linux users: Can I ask you to take this page for a spin and reply off-list if you encounter a problem? http://allturf.sitesbyjoe.com/ Thanks! -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Designer / Developer -- Sites by Joe, LLC Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design Phone: (609) 335-3076 Fax: (866) 301-8045 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***jo e.vcf Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] data generator
/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] data generator
Looks to me like Gary was talking to all of us, or do I understand _list_ differently to others? Joe On Feb 23 2008, at 06:52, dwain wrote: my misunderstanding. dwain On 2/23/08, Gary Menzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wasn't talking to you dwain. On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 3:39 PM, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: target had something that just works and look what happened to them. wonder how they feel about accessibility now? although it's not the end all and be all of web design and development, if you are wanting standards compliance then shouldn't go just part of the way, like microsoft does, to be standards compliant, that means being accessible to all. we do have laws about that now, even for the web. let's go to target. dwain On 2/22/08, Gary Menzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah - our development team will definitely be using this. Sometimes accessibility is not all it is cracked up to be. Sometime you just need something that works. On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 3:00 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]@R KULEKCİ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think very good resource. thanks! 2008/2/23, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED]: This is pretty cool tool to generate volume of any kind of data (it even includes SQL options) http://www.generatedata.com -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] data generator
point taken Russ. Do you feel this thread (implementation of JS in datagenerator site) is on topic? Joe On Feb 23 2008, at 13:55, russ - maxdesign wrote: Gary was having a bad day. He's now left the list. Don’t take his comments personally, anyone! Let’s all calm down and focus on the topic. Thanks Russ Looks to me like Gary was talking to all of us, or do I understand _list_ differently to others? Joe *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] books
Designing with Web Standards - Jeffrey Zeldman Getting Real - 37Signals ... On Feb 19 2008, at 06:58, dwain wrote: On 2/19/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anybody can suggest me some good books or other resources for · Webstandards · css technics css the definitive guide third edition by eric meyer · Ui design and development · javascript (especially for UI purpose) javascript the definitive guide fifth edition by david flanagan I prefer books… Thanks a ton Naveen Bhaskar Menon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] books
you mean Dont make ME think, right? ;-) you made me think about it... ;-) On Feb 19 2008, at 07:29, Thomas Thomassen wrote: Don't make the think -- A Common Sence Approach to Web Usability by Steve Krug Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents
Dwain, Matt Sorry forgot to mention I also getfilesize in php for reasons Dwain mentioned and I have created simple functions like the one he mentions, with a pool of file icons to display with. Sorry for not mentioning these. Joe On Feb 17 2008, at 00:27, Matt Fellows wrote: As Joe said, I also think icons are a great way for users to quickly scan the page and get a sense of what is going on. There is a nice article [1] that can show you how to automatically style links with little icons depending on the extension of the file it points to if you are interested. Cheers, Matt [1] - http://www.askthecssguy.com/2006/12/ showing_hyperlink_cues_with_cs_1.html On 2/16/08, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/16/08, Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Icons also help people make quick choices and allow you to provide the documents in a tabular format when required. Title of This Lengthy Document [PDF ICON] title=download the PDF: Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document [MSWORD ICON] title=download the Word Document: Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document i also put the size of the document next to the link. this way the visitor know what's coming in the download or the view, because to view a pdf it has to be downloaded first and then opened and by notifying the visitor of the size of the document gives them another choice whether to download, view or by pass the document. dwain -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents
Don't know about best practice but I can tell you about ways I approached it in the past and how I like it when I come to a page with the options you offer. I usually put helpful information in the title attribute of a link, so a new window link includes : ..to open x in a new window and a download says something like right-click to download the word document to your desktop I am assuming the file names are formatted something like: Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document.pdf Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document.doc Icons also help people make quick choices and allow you to provide the documents in a tabular format when required. Title of This Lengthy Document [PDF ICON] title=download the PDF: Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document [MSWORD ICON] title=download the Word Document: Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document Personally I take the position that Word and PDF serve completely different roles and should not always be available together. PDF - good for delivery where you need to control file size, fonts, layout and do not want the recipient to edit the document digitally. MSWord - good for delivery of text content you want to allow the recipient to edit, or easily copy into another text editing application. In this instance I make sure the word doc is as simple as possible, and is minimally formatted, preferably as an rtf. Joe On Feb 15 2008, at 13:10, kevin.erickson wrote: Hi, Can anyone tell me what they think the best practice is for have a web page with link to a Word document and also a PDF? Some of my pages have multiple subjects with data in both Word and PDF. So a typical list might be: Title (PDF) Also available in Word. Title (PDF) Also available in Word. In the sample list above Title links to the PDF document and Word links to the Word document. Each link will have a title attribute. Is there a better or more common way to offer multiple formats for a document? Thanks in advance, Kevin No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.5/1278 - Release Date: 2/14/2008 10:28 AM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] keep to the standards of the standards list
Thank you Matt The value of a specifically defined list is adherence to that set of definitions. Let's hold to the _standards_ of the list as much as we can please. Although, saying that, I find it good to be helpful... so am one of the goodwill exploitees, yes. One thing though, in the desire to hold to standards, conflicts arise in the creation of code, so we DO have to occasionally debug in order to solve, don't we? Joe On Feb 15 2008, at 11:52, Matt Fellows wrote: With no offense intended to the list moderators, I feel the usefulness of this mailing list is diminishing due to an increase in irrelevant and lazy postings. The majority of people on this list are genuine web developers, who care for the future of the Web and the place Web Standards has in it. But there seems to be a small number of people who think they can simply post their problems to this list without consulting any other reference. Basic CSS problems, PHP syntax and even spam help are just a sample of some of these questions that can, and should be either found quickly by a number of popular resources or even a quick search in Google. Instead, they lazily exploit the goodwill of many in this list who are kind enough to visit their site and fix their problems. With the number of these increasing there is no wonder why people are leaving this list (and publicly doing so). Out on a limb here - does anybody else feel the same? If so, do you have a suggestion as to how we can better the quality of the list? Matt On 2/15/08, John Hancock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please can this be closed? It's far off any standards related topic. Possibly the only thing I can see as a relevant part of the 'Web 2.0 movement' is the abstraction of the presentational information from data on a page, which isn't being discussed here. If posting an off-topic message, please at least mark it as such so the rest of us can hit the delete button without checking it first for relevant information! Kind regards, John Hancock Identity From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Ortenzi Sent: Friday, 15 February 2008 6:32 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] hello That's art, Kat, design is different. And design is a significant part of the web. On Feb 12 2008, at 22:52, Katrina wrote: kevin mcmonagle wrote: yes its a buzzword mostly but from a design standpoint its also a genre. That's an interesting thought. Is Web 2.0 larger than the web itself? Has it become an art movement/period, in the same way as Modernism, Post-Modernism, Humanism, Impressionism, etc? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] hello
That's art, Kat, design is different. And design is a significant part of the web. On Feb 12 2008, at 22:52, Katrina wrote: kevin mcmonagle wrote: yes its a buzzword mostly but from a design standpoint its also a genre. That's an interesting thought. Is Web 2.0 larger than the web itself? Has it become an art movement/period, in the same way as Modernism, Post-Modernism, Humanism, Impressionism, etc? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] hello
This is a much better and interesting description of web 2.0. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6gmP4nk0EOE if less technical... Joe On Feb 12 2008, at 13:14, russ - maxdesign wrote: Have a read of these for the official definitions or descriptions of web 2.0: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/tim/news/2005/09/30/what-is- web-20.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_2 A good slide show on the topic: http://www.andybudd.com/presentations/dcontruct05/ Or, sit down with some popcorn and watch a web 2.0 video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LzQIUANnHc HTH Russ on 12/2/08 11:07 PM, Gitanjali at wrote: Hello all! Can anybody help me in web 2.0 please *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] running ie7 on my mac??
I just ordered a new iMac I asked them to include Win XP OEM for £77 and Parallels Desktop for £33. Of course this OEM price is only for when you buy the computer... An iMac WITH a fully functioning, 100% legal Windows XP for ONLY an additional £110 (AND you can run multiple instances of IE - I have one with 5.5, one with 6, one with 7, another with office 97, all with antispam/spybot software.) Seems like no contest to me... Joe On Feb 8 2008, at 06:20, James Ellis wrote: and remember that Wine is an emulation layer, it may not give the same results as virtualising Windows (which is a standard Windows install). It depends on how good the emulation is. For instance, before using virtualisation to test IE in XP, I was using Wine and ies4linux and not getting very good Javascript results. Cheers James On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 12:07:05 am kevin mcmonagle wrote: note to anyone who wants to run ies4mac. install wine verstion .51 the current version doesnt work. -kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Perhaps Chris But standards people are interested in following standards, not what others may do. We are meant to be leaders, not followers. I also know some people who still want tabled layouts running in Mambo. That doesn't mean their options are either standards compliant nor sensible. There's nothing stopping us from: id =form element_1 id =form element_2 id =form element_3 if we need to order elements. Or have I missed something? Joe On Feb 8 2008, at 07:30, Chris Knowles wrote: Joe Ortenzi wrote: I would have thought so. Isn't that what the id attribute is used for? Something for JavaScript to reference? Chris Knowles wrote: CK from what I can see the reason lists have come into use in forms has a CK lot to do with javascript libraries that have re-ordering of elements by CK drag and drop that tend to work mainly on lists. Therefore lists are CK useful to wrap form elements if you are creating form building software CK so the form elements can be easily reordered by non-technical users. I suppose that form elements can be easily reordered even if form elements are not LI-wrapped. Can't they? yes, but my point was that a lot of js libraries base drag and drop re-ordering of elements around list elements and not other elements. And I have noticed a lot of form building services use lists to markup forms because they require drag and drop re- ordering of form elements. So I'm suggesting they are only using list elements because they can add drag and drop easily by using an external library that supports it, not because they think lists are necessarily a good markup choice. -- Chris Knowles *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
I was merely highlighting that in the forms section of the HTML 5 diff doc, it describes the structure of forms with fieldsets and labels. Why are lists required? By some reckoning, the fact that one input element follows another means you need to order them. This is a false precept. We do not need to order paragraphs to have _them_ make semantic sense, so why do form input elements need to be listed in an order in addition to the order they are provided in? The label/input relation is similar to DT/DD but since forms have their own version of the label content paradigm, we should use that one within forms, I would have thought. Joe On Feb 7 2008, at 16:05, Thomas Thomassen wrote: Fieldsets and Labels is present in HTML4 as well. Don't see anything new about that. Still need some extra elements to organise them. Such as lists. - Original Message - From: Joe Ortenzi To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:36 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Has anyone looked up the HTML 5 pages on form elements? http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/ http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#forms It's all fieldsets and labels... which makes more semantic sense than paragraphs, lists, and dd/dl JOe On Feb 6 2008, at 04:06, Steve Green wrote: There may be specific cases where it would be right to mark up a form as a list, although I can't think of one. As a general rule it would be wrong. The argument against marking up a form as a list is that a form is not a list. A form is one or more groups of form controls, and the fieldset element is the correct means by which form controls should be grouped. Within a fieldset, paragraph elements should be used for individual form controls. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: 06 February 2008 03:38 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Styling forms I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs. What are the arguments for the different markup types. -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] running ie7 on my mac??
I found that out! darwine won't load them On Feb 7 2008, at 13:07, kevin mcmonagle wrote: note to anyone who wants to run ies4mac. install wine verstion .51 the current version doesnt work. -kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Well done Alexey! Are we not confusing semantics with presentational here? if it is OK to strip the presentational out of a list element (when we use a list for a navigation group and want our navigation elements in a row instead of a column) what is wrong with supplanting the inline quality of a label/input group by designating it a block element, and then group several form elements, or even each label input group with fieldsets? BTW: br / is the equivalent of a force carriage return and thus belongs within paragraphs, i thought! Joe On Feb 7 2008, at 19:55, Алексей Новиков wrote: On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:29 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms TK fwiw, I think BRs are the perfect fit. BRs? Are BRs semantically correct? I believe they aren't. -- Regards, Alexey Novikov http://studiomade.ru *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [WSG] Styling forms
I would have thought so. Isn't that what the id attribute is used for? Something for JavaScript to reference? On Feb 7 2008, at 22:17, Алексей Новиков wrote: Chris Knowles wrote: CK from what I can see the reason lists have come into use in forms has a CK lot to do with javascript libraries that have re-ordering of elements by CK drag and drop that tend to work mainly on lists. Therefore lists are CK useful to wrap form elements if you are creating form building software CK so the form elements can be easily reordered by non-technical users. I suppose that form elements can be easily reordered even if form elements are not LI-wrapped. Can't they? Regards, Alexey Novikov http://studiomade.ru *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] display differences firefox ie 7.0
MH: Someone earlier this week sent a very good presentation that explained a lot of the problems you are facing. It is quite a long presentation (more of a lesson really!) but it answers a lot of the problems you are having. There are also a collection of great links sprinkled through that we could all find useful in our bookmarks list. give it a whirl! http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/ Joe On Feb 6 2008, at 02:10, Michael Horowitz wrote: I've noticed that my site is centered it ie 7.0 but left justified in firefox http://terrorfreeamerica.us/. What are the issues and workarounds to keep them in sync. In this case I would like it centered both ways but I would love to know how to do it either way. Thanks -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Has anyone looked up the HTML 5 pages on form elements? http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/ http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#forms It's all fieldsets and labels... which makes more semantic sense than paragraphs, lists, and dd/dl JOe On Feb 6 2008, at 04:06, Steve Green wrote: There may be specific cases where it would be right to mark up a form as a list, although I can't think of one. As a general rule it would be wrong. The argument against marking up a form as a list is that a form is not a list. A form is one or more groups of form controls, and the fieldset element is the correct means by which form controls should be grouped. Within a fieldset, paragraph elements should be used for individual form controls. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: 06 February 2008 03:38 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Styling forms I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs. What are the arguments for the different markup types. -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Why code and no web pag
there is one on topic point though: you need to close ALL of your your input tags in order for the XHTML to validate. input type=hidden name=no_shipping value=2 should be : input type=hidden name=no_shipping value=2 / (note the space and forward slash at the end) The basic premise is you always need to close a tag in XHTML, like pa paragraph/p. but some tags have no separate end tag, like, hr, br and input, so you close the tag internally, with a space slash, like so: hr / br / and the input example above. Hope this helps! BTW: I notice you posted a comment that you got it working in FF but it doesn't work for me here, unless I got the link wrong? Joe On Feb 3 2008, at 05:01, Hayden's Harness Attachment wrote: I am sorry for the off topic message. I did not know who to turn to. Please reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have the following on a Windows Vista Home Premium PC. http://www.choroideremia.org/events/ national_capital_marathon_may2008.php The code shows in my text editor, however, it will not display in IE7 or Firefox. Does someone know why? Everything shows just fine. Angus MacKinnon Infoforce Services http:ééwww.infoforce-services.com It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible. George Washington *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Conflict between Mime Type and Document Type
which site is the this site that is showing you the message: Conflict between Mime Type and Document Type On Jan 28 2008, at 23:22, Andrew Freedman wrote: G'day, I see this warning often when using the W3C validator and figured I must be doing something wrong, but as it is a warning I never bothered looking into it. Now I've seen it on the results from this site so it has roused my curiosity. Can some explain to me why this is occurring and how it is overcome. Thanks. Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] running ie7 on my mac??
Personally I reccommend paralells or vmware fusion, my setup. Virtual PC does not work worth a damn after os 9. I bought an OEM copy of XP when I bought the Mac, less than £100. Not sure what currency you use. and parallels was cheap. you can use bootcamp if you like but I prefer within os x. Bootcamp exposes too much of the insecure OS to the world whereas a virtual image running within oSX still has some degree of sand-boxing if you set it up right. I installed an image of XP SP2 and do not use it. I then copied it as another instance, loaded AV, spyware and firewall software, all free and dependable enough, and then use that to tst IE6. I then copied that and install IE7. I can then run both instances, simultaneously (get plenty of RAM!) and test both main browsers at once. If something goes wrong with one of the instances I wipe it, copy the first root instance of XP and start fresh with a virgin instance... Not bad for less than £150 and a days work setting up and locking it down! Joe On Jan 25 2008, at 06:08, kevin mcmonagle wrote: Hi, Whats my cheapest option for getting ie7 to run on my intel based mac. Is it basically an option between boot camp, parallels or virtual pc? Very frustrated with discrepancies at the moment. -best kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] running ie7 on my mac??
That looks great Kevin. How does it compare for speed (native versus virtual) and stability. what do you mean written in Qt? On Jan 25 2008, at 09:34, James Ellis wrote: Hi Kevin One option is to use VirtualBox (virtualbox.org) which is virtualisation software written in Qt. Looks to have Mac OSX host capabilities (http://forums.virtualbox.org/viewforum.php?f=8) I use the open source edition in KDE and run all the Windows browsers in an XP guest for testing. Only thing I can't do is get a Mac guest running although there is talk about it in VirtualBox (http://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php? p=13612#13612) - won't affect you tho' HTH James On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 05:08:52 pm kevin mcmonagle wrote: Hi, Whats my cheapest option for getting ie7 to run on my intel based mac. Is it basically an option between boot camp, parallels or virtual pc? Very frustrated with discrepancies at the moment. -best kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] A Question of Semantics
Christian. Did you know most of your portfolio goes to a 404? On Jan 24 2008, at 16:06, Christian Snodgrass wrote: Hello, I have a small semantic problem that I can't make up my mind about. Basically, I have a list like this: Something: blah blah; blah; blah. The Something: is a different font size, and kind of a header for the list. I can't decide if I should just do a paragraph with Something strong or in a span, or if I should do a header and then the text in a paragraph, with some CSS to make it look properly, or if I should make it some kind of definition or other list. What do you think? Thanks. -- Christian Snodgrass Azure Ronin Web Design http://www.arwebdesign.net/ http://www.arwebdesign.net Phone: 859.816.7955 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] running ie7 on my mac??
horses for courses. Worked fine on three of my leopards, two installed under tiger then updated to leopard, one afterwards. I reccommend running it as reccommended and not tweaking very much. but give it plenty of RAM! but If vmware works for you, brill! one of my developers compared and reckons parallels was a better product for web developers who also need tools to run in XP On Jan 25 2008, at 16:16, Gregory Alan Gross wrote: Had a terrible time on my Intel MacBook with Parallels Desktop; it refused to play nice with OS X Leopard. Wouldn't even install properly. Switched to VMware Fusion, and haven't had a problem since. g. On Fri , kevin mcmonagle sent: Hi, Whats my cheapest option for getting ie7 to run on my intel based mac. Is it basically an option between boot camp, parallels or virtual pc? Very frustrated with discrepancies at the moment. -best kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Where did I come from?
Thanks Pat! On Jan 18 2008, at 17:57, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Christian Snodgrass wrote: You shouldn't always assume that they are just trying to replace the back button. They could want to get the referrer for something else. From the thread starter .I just want to know what the previous page was...so I can create a button to go back to it.. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Where did I come from?
Thanks David, Glad to see I'm not the only one who read the email carefully before replying. :-) My understanding of web standards is that one does not replace/ duplicate what is part of the standard furniture without a GOOD reason. Replicating functionality that already exists goes against WS does it not? In the same way you do not create a difficult navigation system hat you then have to explain is a navigation system you should not replicate common functionality with a new, space-hogging function. Joe On Jan 18 2008, at 22:38, David Dorward wrote: On 18 Jan 2008, at 17:23, Christian Snodgrass wrote: You shouldn't always assume that they are just trying to replace the back button. As assumptions go, when they say so I can create a button to go back to it..., it is a pretty safe one. And, not everyone knows about the back button. Don't assume... The back button should be one of the very first things people learn about when they are introduced to the web. If you suspect that your users do not, then creating a custom control that works only for your site instead of educating them about the software they use, is doing them a disservice. Additionally, an in page control marked back causes confusion since users don't know if it will act in the same way as their back button or go forward to the previous URL (which it is will alter the effect on the normal back button). -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Where did I come from?
Do you know what they are coding in? PHP?, ASP? The language may offer a specific solution, but the storing in a session might work, but as said, some situations don't pass the HTTP- REFERRER. But ultimately, in a WS-friendly world, is there no way to help convince them to follow this particular standard? I addition, have you researched that people WANT to go back to the site that led them to your web app? sometimes people move on to the next site for a reason and really are done with the first one... Joe On Jan 19 2008, at 07:18, Simon Cockayne wrote: Hi, Are we agreed that the back button *should* take one to the previous page? I use an internal web application (it's a helpdesk issue tracking system...not developed by me) where they developers have hijacked/ messed with that back button functionality so I cannot use the back button to get back where I was before I entered the internal web apprather the internal web app page re-renders itself. The developers of the internal web app are not keen on un-hijacking/ un-messing with the back button processing. A compromise...I thought...would be a button in the page saying, for example Return (or leave or abandon or exit or something TBA)...that would take the user back to the page they were on *before* the entered the internal web app. To accomplish the compromise the web app will need to know/ determine what the prior page to the web app was... Cheers, Simon On Jan 18, 2008 2:24 PM, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I am on a webpage...how do I know what page the browser was previously showing. I think Javascript History object is the ticket...but STRICT mode in Firefox seems to tell me that I don't have permission to access it. NOTE: I don't want to use the History object to go back or forward...I just want to know what the previous page was...so I can create a button to go back to it... Cheers, Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Where did I come from?
That's not *fixing* the back button and is a consequence of the AJAX refresh JS instead. It is the JS that needs to be fixed joe On Jan 19 2008, at 17:43, Michael MD wrote: Are we agreed that the back button *should* take one to the previous page? yep .. speaking of which... Is there a good way to fix up back button behaviour (so it behaves as expected) on pages that do stuff like loading data by using javascript in hidden iframes? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Where did I come from?
You'd be surprised (maybe not!) as to how few people know about tab and new windows and use them for this purpose. I really have to push people in our studio to use these. Joe On Jan 19 2008, at 12:11, George S. Williams wrote: On Sat, 2008-01-19 at 04:38, Designer wrote: I use this kind of thing all the time - It's called a tab :-) I use that thing quite a bit also. And, occasionally, a similar thing called a new window... George *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards-compliant designers and shoddy work poor QA
Thank you for your sanity check steve! Joe On Jan 13 2008, at 05:34, Steve Olive wrote: On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:31:45 pm Michael Horowitz wrote: The answer is very simple. 100% of potential users of a website have IE on their computer. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Sorry to spoil your fun Michael, but 100% of Apple Mac OS X 10.4 or better don't have IE installed at all. There are also 100% of Linux users who don't have IE installed by default. Nokia, Motorola, etc don't have IE installed on mobile devices. The Asus EeePC, the hottest selling bit of technology at the moment, does not have IE installed. IE can't be installed unless the custom-built default OS is replaced by Windows XP, which is not a simple process and unlikely to be be attempted by regular users. Cross platform compatibility, with fluid designs, is becoming even more of a requirement as people start to use non-Microsoft products. -- Regards, Steve Bathurst Computer Solutions URL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile: 0407 224 251 _ ... (0) ... / / \ .. / / . ) .. V_/_ Linux Powered! Registered Linux User #355382 Registered Ubuntu User #19586 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
Firefox renders pretty close on both systems, but you may find more differences between other browsers. A browser testing grid is helpful but not as helpful as few instances of XP with different browsers running in virtualisation. But don't get a mac just for testing sites on a mac, that you can do with emulators to some degree, get a mac for it's user interface, good free apps, ease of installing a full LAMP web server on, cross platform compatibility (using parallels or VMWare Fusion), ease of connectivity, tighter intelligent security, user-centred engineering, etc. In the past two years we have had several developers, business specialists and music freaks through the office carting their dells, IBMs, and Vaios through the office. With out any coercion or prodding from any of us in the mac-centric office they _always_ end up buying a mac for themselves and loving the one we give them to work with, including die-hard Ubuntu and XP users. You can buy an OEM XP licence when getting you mac for less than £100 (a mac and a windows box in the same case for less than an extra £100, great!) and with Parallels you can install your LAMP environment as a separate OS, mimicking your live server closely. I have yet to see as good a reason as the one for developers and web designers. But as others have said, it is up to you and how you work and how fast you can get your head round the mac way of working. I DO know that one of our contractors swapped over to a macbook white, maxed out with 4GB ram and a 320GB HD, and managed the transition in about a week. Familiarity with Unix got him halfway there and a few mac-friendly friends and acquaintances helped him out with other questions. Now he is already forgetting his XP shortcuts! But definitely talk o others who made the transition so you feel fully informed. As someone who works in a Mac-XP- server 2004 - Linux - redhat - ubuntu environment, and has to support all of them, I know where I'd put my money! Joe On Jan 13 2008, at 05:51, Peter Mount wrote: Is there a difference between Mac versions of browsers like Firefox and Safari or can I safely develop in non Mac versions and expect my web sites to behave the same on the Mac? Currently my main OS is Kubuntu but I'll soon be trialling Red Hat Desktop 5 Multi OS. Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards-compliant designers and shoddy work poor QA
to say don't make up statistics that others will take as gospel as they'll come back and bit us all in the arse. Those who take standards-compliant design seriously tend to be individuals producing small volumes of work, I call unproven assumption - you may be right but we just don't know. but the large volumes are typically generated by organisations that neither know nor care about standards-compliance. They are invariably tied to enterprise-scale CMSs that guarantee the code will be horrible. Likewise, ASP.Net implementations can be made to be standards-compliant but it takes a huge amount of work so most organisations just use it as it comes out of the box. So the simple answer is 'focus on those manufacturers' - yes? Get THEM to change and you won't need to bemoan those chumps who use their stuff out of the box instead of hiring us bespoke designers at our outrageous rates. Curmudgeonly, Mark Harris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/ guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
There will be a new announcement this week, I'm sure, so hold on to your hats for the moment, but coming this week there is sure to be a god deal on Intel MacsBooks and Minis. On Jan 13 2008, at 11:09, Peter Mount wrote: Avi Miller wrote: Even if you are a hardcore gamer, the Mac is a better platform. Booting Windows via Boot Camp is native, and the hardware in the MacBook Pro (for laptops), iMac or Mac Pro (for desktops) is pretty kick-ass. :) cYa, Avi --MySource Matrix Product Evangelist Sydney / Melbourne / Canberra / Hobart / London / 2/340 Gore Street T: +61 (0) 3 9235 5400 Fitzroy, VIC F: +61 (0) 3 9235 5444 3202 W: http://www.squiz.net/ . Open Source - Own it - Squiz.net ./ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Thanks for all the replies. I suppose developing on a Mac is the best way to develop for a Mac Browser. I can't trust Windows for anything important (apart from testing) anymore anyway. I'm not a hardcore gamer so I can look at the Mac Mini or Macbook as well. I'll see what my wallet says in a few months. Have fun -- Peter Mount Web Development for Business Mobile: 0411 276602 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.petermount.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
yeowtch! Several points here. The form elements come from the browser, not the API. fire up safari and firefox on your mac and you will see this. Safari has that silly round button thing and firefox has a more windowsy set of form elements. two: you can style form elements in css but safari doesn't play as well as firefox does in honouring your display. three: you should NEVER have guidance like click on the button which looks like this! gawd! You should be designing a form which is self explanatory and if it requires guidance, the guidance should be in the form itself, perhaps with mouseover text so it is accessibility compliant. How do those with poor site look for your button? They shouldn't have to, the button should announce itself for all to understand! Sorry for the rant . but really Joe On Jan 14 2008, at 01:47, John Horner wrote: can I safely develop in non Mac versions and expect my web sites to behave the same on the Mac? Behave? Yes. But... I don't think anyone's made this point yet -- one key difference between the platforms is the display of form elements. Elements like buttons and select menus and checkboxes, etc., pretty much belong to the operating system and the browser is only borrowing them. If your design has an expectation that those elements can be finely controlled, cross-platform, then you might get an unpleasant surprise. For instance, if you have documentation which says click on the button which looks like this [image of the button from a Windows browser] then Mac users may not have a button which looks like that. == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page.
the resulting output, but not to be able to copy/paste to other applications. Is this possible to achieve in a way that is standards-compliant - or indeed in any way at all? One suggestion has been to apply a transparent image over the results table - but not sure if this could be done with CSS etc? If this is considered off-topic then I would welcome suggestions for more appropriate forums. Many thanks in anticipation. Regards, *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mary-Anne Nayler is out of the office. [SEC=No Protective Marking Present]
I tried sending an email to Web Site but got an address not valid error! ;-) Is that like sending a letter to North Pole ? Joe On Dec 21 2007, at 04:37, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will be out of the office starting 21/12/2007 and will not return until 07/01/2008. I will respond to your message when I return. For anything urgent, please email Web Site. ** ** NOTICE - This message is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action based upon it. If you received this message in error please notify Medicare Australia immediately. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Medicare Australia. ** * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Story Boards
hi Marvin I am trying to understand the task you need help with. Pardon my ignorance on matters relating to the HCI for the poorly sighted. Perhaps you could educate me on this while I try to help. From what you are saying, it sounds like you are making what I would call wireframes, which is to say a rough description of where the various elements will generally sit on a page, without all of the dressing, like colours, logos, branding, images and without describing the sizes of the text exactly. Is that what you are referring to as storyboards? The second question might be irrelevant but had you been able to see in the past? I only ask as I understand it is easier to describe visual conepts to those who lost their sight as opposed to those who never had sight in the first place. The former have a memory of what seeing was, making descriptions and analogies easier for the sighted to use as examples. We use Quark, InDesign and OmniGraffle for these tasks, but I am not sure what would work well for your computer interface. I would have thought that MS Word tables would be useful for this, as would HTML tables, perfect in-fact as you can conceive of, for example a three column layout and describe it well using tables. How is dreamweaver as an interface for you as I understand it is very good at manipulating tables in general. Is that a possible tool? It would also be helpful if you could tell us what your instructor found lacking, so we could address their concerns directly. Joe On Oct 10 2007, at 04:46, marvin hunkin wrote: Hi. doing a project for my website development course. now, part of the requirements says that i need to create a story board to represent what content is to be displayed on each page. Now sighted students, would draw navigation and story board diagrams. now, had to do this in word tables and tried html. but my lecturer is still not happy with what i have come up with. now, just wondering, is there any software, that might be able to represent the story boards for the four websites that i am developing for this semester. any tips, tricks, or any other similar experiences. let me know, if anyone been in the same position. unfortunately the guy who did start to develop an accessible text to speech drawing software, got his phd, and did not complete the project and still in limbo. he got to the third user tests, and then nicked off. he did this at Burkely University in Callifornia and the product was to be called Intercommunication Draw 2. okay, can you help out or give suggestions or how to resolve these problems? cheers Marvin. Join Lavalife for free. What are you waiting for? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
No but you DO have an escalator at your local shopping mall because not everyone finds the climb up the stairs easy. Or should we remove the escalators and elevators from shopping malls too because they CHOSE to go to that shopping mall didn't they? Can you please use logic and sense? On Oct 3 2007, at 22:50, Chris Wilson wrote: Or do you think that your right to 'do what the hell you like' outweighs other people's right to be treated equally? Be treated equally? They have to CHOOSE to visit the site. So, because they want (want need)to do something, others should accommodate? I want to visit the summit of mount everest... I suppose the people of tibet should install an escalator just so I can reach the top due to my less-then-perfect phisical status. Damn them for not allowing me to the summit, I'm going to sue. Idiocy. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
No but you DO have an escalator at your local shopping mall because not everyone finds the climb up the stairs easy. Or should we remove the escalators and elevators from shopping malls too because they CHOSE to go to that shopping mall didn't they? Can you please use logic and sense? On Oct 3 2007, at 22:50, Chris Wilson wrote: Or do you think that your right to 'do what the hell you like' outweighs other people's right to be treated equally? Be treated equally? They have to CHOOSE to visit the site. So, because they want (want need)to do something, others should accommodate? I want to visit the summit of mount everest... I suppose the people of tibet should install an escalator just so I can reach the top due to my less-then-perfect phisical status. Damn them for not allowing me to the summit, I'm going to sue. Idiocy. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
yes for an old site I no longer need. but been too busy fixing sites that people actually need and use. fair nuff. you gonna sue me? On Oct 3 2007, at 23:33, Chris Wilson wrote: If you are going to argue for standards and accesability, follow your own advice first. Captain table layout over here. You don't even have alt tags on your images. Hypocritical aren't ya? Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
would love to but she won't let you comment unless you are logged in. free speech, eh? On Oct 3 2007, at 21:52, Julie Romanowski wrote: I don't know how many of you are familiar with Michelle Malkin. She posted about the Target lawsuit today, and although she is an intelligent woman, she doesn't have a clue when it comes to web accessibility. There also seems to be a lot of ignorance among the commenters and I would appreciate it if some our WSG members can help to set these people straight. Please visit Michelle Malkin's site and post your comments - http://michellemalkin.com/2007/10/03/blind-shoppers-get-green-light- to-s ue-target-over-website/. Julie Romanowski Software Engineering - J2EE Engagement Team State Farm Insurance Company office: 309-735-5248 mobile: 309-532-4027 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
You make an easy error Chris. Contrary to popular belief, websites are NOT visual, there is a lot of text and code in there, placed by good website designers, to allow sight-poor people, as well as people who need the text to be large, or require high contrast text, etc, to read the site. SO the analogy of a car is not valid. Sight-disabled people can have websites read to them by software on their computer. So they have a perfectly valid car for driving on the roads, since it can read for them. So if you put the road signs where they can't read them, and make the text too small and the same colour as the background, you are consciously preventing them from taking part in society. People with disabilities have software that can read the site to them and allow them to get the information or shop that store as well. If the design doesn't take this into account, and it is not difficult to do and actually makes the site a better site, easier to navigate and more search engine friendly and load quicker, then it negates them as a possible customer. Just like a newly built shop - if you don't put in easy wheelchair access you remove those people from your possible customer base. The GREAT thing about the internet is that is a useful tool for people who have difficulty getting round and is a useful tool to help them have a half-decent life. So when you build a new site, and design and code to acceptable web standards, then those people with sight or motion disabilities can shop too, because the designers took them into account when they were designing it. NOt EXTRA work, just different design. Your screw-them attitude smells of intolerance and forgets the fact that all men (people) are created equal and have equal rights to services and resources. And the funny thing is, it only takes intelligence, not extra money, to make it happen! On Oct 3 2007, at 22:04, Chris Wilson wrote: A private company should be able to do whatever the hell they like. Suit is without merit and frivolous. What's next, suing vehicle manufacturers for not providing a braille manual? I'm all for accesability, but there is no reason it should be mandated, and lack of is in no was discriminatory. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
No but you DO have an escalator at your local shopping mall because not everyone finds the climb up the stairs easy. Or should we remove the escalators and elevators from shopping malls too because they CHOSE to go to that shopping mall didn't they? Can you please use logic and sense? On Oct 3 2007, at 22:50, Chris Wilson wrote: Or do you think that your right to 'do what the hell you like' outweighs other people's right to be treated equally? Be treated equally? They have to CHOOSE to visit the site. So, because they want (want need)to do something, others should accommodate? I want to visit the summit of mount everest... I suppose the people of tibet should install an escalator just so I can reach the top due to my less-then-perfect phisical status. Damn them for not allowing me to the summit, I'm going to sue. Idiocy. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Problems validating with TIDY
Not sure about the __VIEWSTATE error other than the first character of an ID should be alphanumeric, I thought. also Tidy said: The character encoding specified in the HTTP header (utf-8) is different from the value in the meta element (iso-8859-1). I will use the value from the HTTP header (utf-8) for this validation. which may also be part of the problem. Often tidy may point to something as an error which is really an error elsewhere conflicting with he code in the alleged forst error, if that makes sense... your answer may be here: http://dotnetting.wordpress.com/2007/01/30/aspnets-attempt-at-valid- xhtml/ ASP and .NET has too many instances of bad code generation and no-one is taking MS to task for this. Joe On Sep 28 2007, at 19:53, Tim Offenstein wrote: I have a page I want to validate. W3C says it's valid XHTML Transitional but Tidy complains saying, line 96 column 1 - Warning: input ID __VIEWSTATE uses XML ID syntax. The page is www.provost.uiuc.edu and because it has a XHTML DOCTYPE, I would think XML syntax should be just fine. I am advising on this page so I don't have access to the files to change anything but wanted to research the complaint before reporting it. Any ideas what TIDY's problem is saying. I thought preceding an ID with the double underscore might be the issue but would like a more technical explanation, particularly since W3C says it's valid. Thanks in advance. -Tim -- Tim Offenstein *** Campus Accessibility Liaison *** (217) 244-2700 CITES Departmental Services *** www.uiuc.edu/goto/ offenstein *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari problem
Baz
at first glance I would look at the width of the div and maybe make
sure there is no padding, ie: padding:0px;
a useful tool for me has been the firebug plugin for firefox which
allows you to inspect and edit items in the page quite easily and
intelligently. have you got this example online for us to investigate
as it may be something else in the surrounding page not just this
element in it?
Joe
On Sep 27 2007, at 18:43, Bas V wrote:
I need to scroll a lot of photo thumbnails in a box that shows only
2 rows of images at the time.
The right-hand scroll bar from the box needs to always show, the
bottom scrollbar needs to be hidden.
So far no problem... however, in Firefox, Internet Explore etc, the
y-scroll bar shows on PC and Mac but in Safari it doesn't show the
box's scroll bar, why
Here is the code I am using:
In the style sheet:
#photos {
float:left;
margin-top:0px;
margin-left: 42px;
height: 215px;
width: 830px;
clear:both;
overflow-y:scroll;
overflow-x:hidden;
}
on the page:
div id=photos
table border=0 cellpadding=0 width=100%
tr
td valign=top
table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0
tr
td width=93 height=93 class=thumbcella
etc, etc, etc...
/td
/tr
/table
/td
/tr
/table
/div
Any suggestions?
Cheers
Baz
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