Re: [WSG] Hotlinking prevention does not work
This is not the place to discuss such problems. This mailing list is to be used for discussions based around Web Standards. I don't disagree, but darn, web standards related or not I was curious to see the responses. :( Respectfully, Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up news
i would not suggest to use h1 for our news cause what benefit I agree. That was just for demonstration purposes... I would certainly suggest using whatever heading would be appropriate and semantic. I didn't have that info so I created a new document and dropped the news in just so I could show the markup. Respectfully, Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up news
Hi Essential, Hi, it is going to be a list of news events and will hopefully when I figure it out print the info to RSS that's why I was thinking of the DL so it's just a list of some events rather that full news? I'm sorry, I guess I don't realy understand what you're after. I mean I understand you want a list, but you also asked for the best markup. You see, naturally I guess I shy away from the list idea to begin with. With the source order and how it's displayed, plus the addendum of a date, naturally forms an order so to speak so I thought the best approach was to make the marking up part as simple as possible. In other words I couldn't think of a reason for a list. That said, if for some reason it _must_ be listed, I guess this would be about as clean as it can be (the span assumes you want the date to be styled differently)... ul li h#Heading/Title/h# pspanThe Date/span - The excerpt/content./p /li li h#Heading/Title/h# pspanThe Date/span - The excerpt/content./p /li /ul ...but again, I don't think this brings anything to the table that would be considered beneficial or more accessible. Albeit these may not be particularly detrimental solutions, I just didn't/don't understand why the list is needed to begin with. I don't really recommend an ordered list because, as said, the date and physical order is enough in this case. And I don't really recommend a DL either because I would assume you'd use the definition title element for the title, but doing so would make those titles more difficult for screen reader users as they wouldn't be able to use the DT as navigation aids as they can and do with headings. I must disclaim again, though, I don't really understand your final goal or what exactly you're after so if a list is necessary... Respectfully, Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up news
Hi Essential,
h4News Title/h4 (h1, h2 and h3 are already being used within the page
for heading and sub heading)
p class=news_dateNews Date/p
p class=news_contentNews Content/p
That works. You might be able to get rid of that what-will-be-repetitive
news_content class if you wrap the thing in a div (id=news), then the
CSS would be like.
#news { }
#news h4 { }
#news p { }
#news p .news_date { }
Or use something else if you have it available and skip the div. Just a
thought. Either way what you're using should serve both you and your readers
well. Good job.
Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
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Re: [WSG] Marking up news
Don't avoid using a headline level just because it's already being used within the page. Good call, Paul. Respectfully, Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] A Semi-Transparent Background Color?
Hi Brett, I was wondering why there was no implementation to allow a semi-transparent background color using CSS? Would this worn text technique using an image work for you? http://www.khmerang.com/index.php?p=95 Maybe you can use a dotted color/clear GIF to perform as you want. HTH Respectfully, Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Clearing a row with floated list li
Hi Paul, I want to clear every third list item and start a new row I haven't tested this so I may very well be wrong, but since you have fixed width LIs, if you confine the width of the UL so it only accommodates three LIs will the 4th LI drop to the next line? Respectfully, Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Blockquote
Hi James, quotes are being scraped from other sites how would I cite them? Something like this might work well: blockquote cite=http://site.com/quotesource; pQuoted text goes here./p pcitea href=http://site.com/quotedperson;Quoted Person/a/cite/p /blockquote The link within the cite element is optional, they may be the same or different as shown, and the cite attribute itself is optional, used only when the quote, as you say, is scraped from another site. :) Hope that helps. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com - Original Message - From: James Jeffery jamesjeffery@googlemail.com To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 5:58 PM Subject: [WSG] Blockquote I'm developing a site. A quote site infact. For the quotes I think it's wise to use blockquote ... but, the quotes are being scraped from other sites so how would I cite them? Could I use a wiki url for the author? And what if the author is unknown or has no wiki page. Do I *need* to include the cite attribute? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Question about change color of numbers in OL list
Hi Anton,
My idea with inner span:
CSS code:
li { color: red; }
li span { color: blue; }
As far as I know that about as good a solution as it gets. I'm not aware of
another way to get the job done.
Mike
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Re: [WSG] RE: Accessible and cross browser online slide system
I can offer this, though I'm not sure if it meets your needs. http://green-beast.com/autorun/ Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + h6 in place of legend
Hi Ben, I've always used label arount input fields [...] I don't think I've ever seen any recommendation against it. Here's one for you: http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=254 I haven't been paying attention to this, and someone's probably already said it (if so, sorry), but it's also worth noting that only form elements will be read in a screen reader's forms mode. Being as such, it's better to style the legend to look like an h6 rather than substituting it for one. Respectfully, Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Uppercase Tag Names
Hi James, they said to use uppercase text for tag names and lowercase for attributes. I have to do it because otherwise I will lose a mark. That's a shame they're enforcing that. In HTML 4.01 either upper or lowercase is acceptable, but uppercase usage isn't forward-compatible into more modern doctypes. In general it's frowned upon and not considered a best practice. I guess you have to live with it for school; you don't want to anger the master and all that, but then again if others chime in with what I'm saying, perhaps a slew of anonymous forwarded emails to the poers-that-be might be for the general good. Respectfully, Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Img List Style not displaying for Print Preview
Hi Kristine, I created a print style sheet and for some reason, my image for the ul list style is not displaying To the best of my knowledge background images don't get printed, even if you add it to the style sheet. To ensure they're printed I'm pretty sure you have to embed them. Hope this helps. Respectfully, Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accesbility Help
Hi eBiz, In this article [1] I explain the how-to a bit and offer some additional solutions. Perhaps you could integrate those code snippets in your order form. [1] http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=220 Respectfully, Mike Cherim - Original Message - From: Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 10:41 AM Subject: [WSG] Accesbility Help http://www.essentialebizsolutions.net Click the Essential eBiz Solutions logo to visit our home page Hi All, This is a mixed question, I have a contact form that I'm building. I want to add a human verifier to the forms but not a captcha one because they are far from accessible, I'm not that good at PHP though to figure it out, I already use the Mikes Green Beast form for general contact but this will be to process order request. I've trawled the internet but all I can find is captcha solutions, can any one point me in the right direction? Many thanks Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd 6 Gibson Place Meir Stoke-on-Trent www.essentialebizsolutions.net Disclaimer: This email and its attachments may be confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd. If you are not the intended recipient of this email and its attachments then please contact the sender and do not use or forward this e-mail to anyone. Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd, Registered in England and Wales Company Registration No: 57200784. Registered Office: 6, Gibson Place, Meir, Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire, ST3 5PQ. Please consider the environmental impact of printing this e-mail. CONFIDENTIAL: This email is intended for and confidential to the named recipient. If you have received a copy in error, please accept our apologies and destroy it. You may not use or disclose the contents of this e-mail to anyone, nor take copies of it. The only copies permitted are to be made by the named recipient and for the purpose of completing successful electronic transmission to the named recipient and then only on condition that these copies, with this notice attached, are kept confidential until destruction Hosting Plans http://www.krystal.co.uk/aff/aff.php?id=135_1 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accesbility Help
Hi Joseph,
?php
// check the answer
if ($_POST['human_verifier'] != 'blue')
{
// incorrect
echo 'Robot! Get out!');
}
else
{
// correct
echo 'Welcome, Human.';
}
?
You can make that a little more foolproof by setting the case of the text
before matching, upper or lower it doesn't matter, but either way it'll
prevent answers like Blue, BLUE, bLuE, etc. from triggering the Robot! Get
out! error.
Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
- Original Message -
From: Joseph Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accesbility Help
If you want to avoid captchas, my recommendation would be to add a
question that would foil a robot. Just explain that this field is for that
specifically.
Something like:
fieldset
legendHuman Verification/legend
pThis section is used to thwart evil spam robots. Fill in the correct
answer./p
div
labelWhat color is the sky? (hint: blue)/label
input type=text name=human_verifier
/div
/fieldset
You're PHP would be:
?php
// check the answer
if ($_POST['human_verifier'] != 'blue')
{
// incorrect
echo 'Robot! Get out!');
}
else
{
// correct
echo 'Welcome, Human.';
}
?
This is obviously a very, very simple solution but it has worked on
reducing/removing form spam on a couple of my sites quite well while being
an accessible solution. I'm welcome to an contradictory thoughts on this.
Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd wrote:
* Click the Essential eBiz Solutions logo to visit our home page
http://www.essentialebizsolutions.net *
* Hi All, *
* This is a mixed question, I have a contact form that I’m building.
I want to add a human verifier to the forms but not a captcha one
because they are far from accessible, I’m not that good at PHP
though to figure it out, I already use the Mikes Green Beast form
for general contact but this will be to process order request. I’ve
trawled the internet but all I can find is captcha solutions, can
any one point me in the right direction? *
* *
* Many thanks *
Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd
6 Gibson Place
Meir
Stoke-on-Trent
www.essentialebizsolutions.net http://www.essentialebizsolutions.net
** Disclaimer ** : This email and its attachments may be confidential and
are intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is
addressed. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author
and do not necessarily represent those of Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd.
If you are not the intended recipient of this email and its attachments
then please contact the sender and do not use or forward this e-mail to
anyone.
Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd, Registered in England and Wales Company
Registration No: 57200784. Registered Office: 6, Gibson Place , Meir,
Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire , ST3 5PQ .
Please consider the environmental impact of printing this e-mail.
CONFIDENTIAL: This email is intended for and confidential to the named
recipient. If you have received a copy in error, please accept our
apologies and destroy it. You may not use or disclose the contents of
this e-mail to anyone, nor take copies of it. The only copies permitted
are to be made by the named recipient and for the purpose of completing
successful electronic transmission to the named recipient and then only
on condition that these copies, with this notice attached, are kept
confidential until destruction
Hosting Plans http://www.krystal.co.uk/aff/aff.php?id=135_1
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Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility
Hi Jason, I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a picture and then use image maps to get to the actual links. That's not necessarily an inaccessible method, not completely anyway. Take my MapPop [1] for example. It's a list and CSS driven. works with keyboard. Downside is two-fold. Text cannot be resized, goes blind with images off (though not to the blind). As others noted, there are alternatives your client may not be aware of and could take a liking to if you show him/her. - Image replacement [2]. The right technique (not one that hides the text offscreen) is largely accessible. Drawback is the text cannot be resized. - Embedded images. This can be effective. Drawbacks include not being able to effectively do a mouseover (though an experimental technique [3] is available). The other drawback is text resize. preload images or use sprites for best uncached performance. - Straight CSS backgrounds. This was provided already but if the client can be convinced it would be the most accessible method since the text *should* be able to be enlarged. No example given by me, but what was provided is fine. Can use a separate image (or part of a larger image like a map) - Images with text. Text to one side, image to the other, sharing the same anchor within a list item. No example given. You might be able to come pretty close to satisfying your client without have to pull back too much, and without a huge sacfrifice to access. Hope this helps. Respectfully, Mike Cherim [1] MapPop. This could be close to what's wanted. http://green-beast.com/experiments/css_map_pop.php [2] Dave Shea has a list of techniques. I like the Gilder/Levin method. http://www.mezzoblue.com/tests/revised-image-replacement/ [3] CSS embedded image replacement. This is flawed but I bet if a sprite was used instead of two images it might just have some merit. http://green-beast.com/experiments/css_image_replacement.php *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Appropriate postings
On lists like these, newbies can become gurus. And the cycle unselfishly gets repeated. :) Respectfully, Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Should we design for 800x600 screens?
By subject... Should we design for 800x600 screens Design for? Not necessarily. Accommodate? Yes. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Large Background Images
Hi Chris, bandwidth. However standards are still a concern, what perils of wisdom for using a full-page BG can the list cultivate? Hard on those with a slow connection, but I cannot foresee another issue unless the background is a big animated GIF ;-) You can offer a removal tool for those users easily enough. I do that on my hosting company's site [1] because with the masthead and background images and all, it could be hard on dial-up and slower DSL users. Granted they still have to load the page initially (it's usable without backgrounds but I want them on page load for aesthetics), but it's helpful to them when they explore the site and on return visits. This is one way to handle the conundrum of being backwards compatible, so to speak. This particular changer uses PHP and a cookie to manage the option. It places the new styles in the head with a single property: background-image : none; applied to the various elements. The link to it is on the sidebar under Page Tools -- the link says Remove Backgrounds. [1] http://gbhxonline.com Respectfully, Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Problem of adjacent links
Hi Bob,
I have run into a problem with having two adjacent
links at the top of a page.
You can use a list as someone mentioned, you can also add a hidden
character. Example:
div id=sitelink
p
[a href=sitemap.htmlSite Map/a
span | /span
a href=../../core/noticeboard.htmlHome/a]
/p
/div
The span would be style with:
div#sitelink span {
position : absolute;
left : -9000px;
}
Cheers.
Mike Cherim
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Re: [WSG] Images
Hi James, do you need the border, height, and width or should that be done in the style sheet or is it needed? Exactly what Tony said regarding width and height, they're beneficial. Lose the border attribute, though. That should be done in the style sheet as you suspected. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Image links
Hi Venkatesan,
Is there any chance 'img' can be a parent of 'anchor' tag?
How about this then:
a img, img a {
text-decoration : none;
}
This is a fuller version with some interaction as a usability enahancement.
img, a img, img a {
text-decoration : none;
border : 2px solid #ccc; /* try the background color if wanted */
font-size : 80%; /* allows more alt text without overflow issues */
}
img a:hover, img a:focus {
border : 2px solid #999;
}
img a:active{ /* focus in IE, onkeypress for all else (?) */
border : 2px solid #000;
}
Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
www.green-beast-com
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Re: [WSG] Image links
it should be:
a img {
}
Ah, yeah, duh, sorry can't do img a. Drop that from my previous example
please. It's late, I'll Tweet my goof and go to bed :)
Mike
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Re: [WSG] Form best practice
you've come across a good form design, functionality, semantics or interaction. I humbly submit my own. http://green-beast.com/gbcf-v3/ Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Hanging indents
Hello Rob, facing the great problem of trying to make the screen look like print. Good point. I had that issue with a site I recently made. The client wanted every entry to look like it did in print. For example, the print version used uppercase headings. The client was adding this content to the site, and making the headings uppercase (which were not the style of the site). I suggested that I could make a style to make the headings uppercase without actually making them uppercase. I also noted that unlike the Word version, these are real headings so it should be better if anything. But my client said that wouldn't fly. The entries were legal documents and had to be exact. I argued the point a bit, but I'm not a lawyer, so I gave up. Cheers. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Hanging indents
Hi Elizabeth,
I'm trying to get the clauses to appear with a hanging indent
Try adding a div to the body of content you want this treatment in (saving
on a lot of p.classes and extraneous markup), then put this in the CSS.
div.clauses p {
margin-left : 50px;
text-indent : -40px;
}
The margin will create a nice gap for the indents, the neg margin should
make what you want, first line only. The difference in measurement keep the
indent from hitting the wall so to speak, but this could also be
accomplished by adding padding to the div.
div.clauses {
padding : 10px;
}
div.clauses p {
margin-left : 40px;
text-indent : -40px;
}
Someone might say it's a job for an ordered list, but the complex numbers
make that impossible, moreover, these items are numbered, this is true, but
not really ordered.
in IE 6 and started tearing my hair out.
Well, we can't have that so I hope this helps.
Cheers,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com
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[WSG] WCAG 2 implementation site
I don't recall who had asked for the link, but I have finally launched the WCAG 2 implementation site that was mentioned. Info about it as well as a link to the site can be found here: http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=221. Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] SEO, fact or fiction and myths
I didn't know robots text was important for accessibility, however I learned from the accessites team that it is. Tee, The reasons we (Accessites) look for a robots.txt file is because it keeps honest bots from wasting their time and your bandwidth indexing directories/files you don't want indexed. We don't look at this as part of a web accessibility requirement. Our focus is on quality sites for which accessibility must be an integral part. Thus, we like to see things like a robots.txt file, PICS label, semantics, good looks, and more, of course. Regarding a site map, that we like to see for accessibility and not for bots at all. A site map is important to accessibility as some user will seek out a site map right away to grasp a site's overview and offerings. For some users, this is the best way to begin the exploration of a site. In my opinion, html site maps don't have anything to do with indexing other than just being another indexable page. It is my understanding, though, that an XML site map can help indexing but being that I've never used one or looked into it much, I can neither confirm or deny this. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Respectfully, Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] SEO, fact or fiction and myths
That seems incredibly arbitrary when a robots.txt is purely optional - especially as the default spider behavior is to index all unless told otherwise. So you're penalizing people by having your robot behave in the opposite manner? And regarding PICS labels, most people don't know how to set them or don't have the requisite server access. How do you justify these? John, We don't necessarily penalize for not having one, we just credit for having one (offering one is not part of our criteria [1]). It's something we like to see. For the reasons I stated: we grade a site on many levels, and we see that providing a robots.txt as a positive thing that helps make a site/domain complete. Same with a PICS label, it's not a requirement, though I believe a PICS label can actually help with access in that some schools districts won't allow network access to site that doesn't claim to be appropriate for the level of the students the system serves. Regarding requisite server access I don't understand. The PICS label is put into the head of the document. If a developer doesn't understand how to get a PICS label or can't add one to the head and don't have access to such, I doubt they'd be submitting a site for possible awarding. But, regardless, the main point of my reply was to clarify that the robots.txt file has no bearing on the site's accessibility (that I'm aware of) and that's it's just one of the many things we look for in a quality submission. Cheers. Mike [1] http://accessites.org/site/criteria/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] SEO, fact or fiction
Hello Michael, Accessibility is far more important to SEO than most standards, affecting SEO directly, that is. Think of Googlebot as a blind user and you can see why I mention accessibility. I have gotten emails before, filled with promises of being number one on Google (but under what search terms wasn't specified). It's crap. Some of those spam blogs and send bulk emails. Many can't be found on searches themselves so what good they would do for me is highly suspect. I delete those emails. Legit or not I see it as spam. Natural, ethical SEO is best: 1) Good use of (page name first) titles. 2) Make sure your site is accessible (*standards required here). 3) Interesting, well-written content. Offer something. 4) Concise meta descriptions. 5) Give it time and your steady effort. Price for that advice: Free. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 news
Hi Thomas,
One thing I noticed was some oddness with :hover behaviour
I remember when IE7 came out (RC1 I think) I had to add [1] a:hover {} to
the head of my documents else it didn't work at all. I added it within my
@import statement with empty braces, like this:
style type=text/css media=screen
@import mystylesheet.css; a:hover { }
/style
I really have top wonder if this is more of the same. What oddness are you
seeing?
I can't say I'll be installing it too soon. I did that with 7 and it just
led to a bunch of changes (bug fixes) that I didn't need to make by the time
RC2 came out.
Cheers.
Mike
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Re: [WSG] Browser Text Resizing and the Ill Effects It May Cause
Hi Jason, yes I do.. You can do the same thing with pictures it's really a cool effect, and helps maintain the ratio of the entire page pretty well.. I have a demo up (Currently using php to process the size of the image) if anyone wants to look: HTTP://www.raoset.com/dev/global7/ I don't mean to pick, but is it really a good tradeoff to have download an 895kb image just so it can be enlarged with the text. It seems like everyone (including your bandwidth resources) will take a big hit just so the image can grow. Respectfully, Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 news
http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/03/03/microsoft-s-interoperability-principles-and-ie8.aspx That's awesome. A unified industry can move forward. Those who want to embrace it will get with the program, and those who don't can stay in IE7-ville until... well, until they get with the program, at their leisure. At least those who have been playing the game won't have to play games with funky new meta tags. It's nice to see the voice of web standards being heard. Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] strong element being more semantical and accessible for required field
Hi Matt, I guess I would prefer verbose and have them fill the form out once than have them have them misinterpret and have to fix errors, [...] I agree. [...] which I imagine can be tedious using a screen reader. Is this the case? Can be a horror show. My understanding is that client side (using JavaScript alerts) is actually pretty accessible. For server side, my v2 [1] form script bookmarks the success/error message (#results) bringing the user directly to the message. The message tells them what's wrong, they go back and fix the issue. Going back doesn't take them directly to the culprit input so they have to navigate to it. This is the version (modified a bit more) I'm using (have to for now) on the site I had mentioned. The error management was noted, favorably. Even better, dare I say the best way, is how I manage errors on my v3 [2] form. The user is directed to the error, on the same page, and links are provided taking the user directly to the culprit input/s. All errors now do this, and some take it a step further. For example, if the anti-spam question is wrong the script returns the error, a link, and also gives the user the right answer (my attempt to better satisfy the needs of those with cognitive disabilities). Also, there is a honeypot input (to lure 'bots). Users are told to keep it empty in the label, but if they mistakenly fill it in they are notified of the error, the input is cleared for them, and they are given a link to the submit and asked to try again. Balancing accessibility and the security is delicate. It would be great if you could keep us posted about any feedback you get in March when the site goes live. Will do. Nothing's perfect so I'm sure I'll get useful feedback from people who see it. Hope so anyway. what I think I will do is run a few simple A\B tests on some of my sites and log the amount of JavaScript errors for each of the different methods described That'd be great, Matt. Thanks. Mike Live Demo Forms: [1] http://green-beast.com/gbcf/gbcf_form.php [2] http://green-beast.com/gbcf-v3/test-form.php *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Special site check invitation (for one)
Hello all, I am looking for a volunteer to check out a web site for me. I need another set of eyes. This volunteer needs the following: 1) Access to an extra wide viewport (beyond 1024). 2) A solid knowledge of CSS so if a bug is found, together we might be able to find a fix (you will be properly credited if it comes to this). 3) Different browsers on which to look (FF IE6,7, OP, Safari) on Windows. Mac, too, would be beneficial but not necessary. 4) A static IP so you can be added to the approved viewer's array. If you meet the requirements and you're interested in helping, please contact me off-list. At which point I will announce here a volunteer was found. Thanks. Respectfully, Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Special site check invitation (COMPLETE)
Hello all, Thank you to all who volunteered. I owe you one :) I did actually extend the invitation to three people -- more the merrier, right? Cheers. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] strong element being more semantical and accessible for required field
Hi Matt, that the following legend is superflous and prevents logical grouping. fieldset legendRequired/legend label for=nameName (required) input name=name label for=emailEmail (required) input name=email /fieldset I agree, actually. With that example (and the image one I gave) using the word required, in the case of a user listening with a setting that reads the legends (default), would make it too verbose. It'd read: Required Name Required Required Email Required Though I guess there'd be no missing it. ;-) The use of the Required legend seems to work well with the asterisk, with its meaning defined in a non-associated label (one with no for attribute). It's a compromise method. I do have one form on a real-deal AAA WCAG 2.0 site I made (to be officially announced Mar. 11-12th) with this specific configuration. It's open now by invite to a few disabled users/testers and a couple of key WCAG 2.0 Editors, and I got more very positive comments about that particular set-up tonight... a few minutes ago actually. fieldset legendPersonal Details/legend label for=nameName span class=required(required)/span/label input name=name That is a solid method for sure, but there's only one problem and that is to *some* users (default settings) it might sound too verbose. Personal Details Name Required Personal Details Email Required Personal Details Phone The problem is not the technique, yours or mine, or any of the other accessible methods. It's the myriad configurations possible that really challenge us. There are so many variables (not even including those of sighted users) that while there are a number of feasible methods, there seems no perfect one-size fits-all answer. It's all a compromise. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] an accessible question: server-side vs client-side validation
Hi Tee, I suppose I can turn off the server-side validation if client-side validation is used, but I am concerned with the accessibility issue You can have it both ways. The JavaScript can work before anything is even submitted to the server (very AJAXy) so the server-side validation isn't even used -- unless the JS isn't supported. Perfectly accessible provided the error management is accessible for users who have JavaScript but can't use all features (provide for non-sighted and keyboard), or those who have JS enabled on their browser, but have scripts blocked at another point such as a firewall or router. Make sure JS isn't required to use the form. Respectfully, Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Decorative bolding
Do I: a. Use the b tag, or... b. Use a span tag and bold it using CSS? I'd use span, b is deprecated Actually it's not deprecated, not in HTML 4, 5 or XHTML 1. If ever there was a case for the use the 'b' element, this might be a good one. --- Strong is important so, as Rachel stated, it isn't appropriate. A span is fine as others have pointed out, but the b element might also be a sound choice in this case. The b element is a highlight of sorts. That is its semantic value, its role as an element in a web document. From HTML 5: blockquote The b element represents a span of text to be stylistically offset from the normal prose without conveying any extra importance, such as key words in a document abstract, product names in a review, or other spans of text whose typical typographic presentation is boldened. /blockquote It is bold without the importance, at least that is its default rendering. Remember, just because it is bold might not necessarily mean that it is a style. All elements have a default rendering. Strong is bold and so are headings. They all have a role, and we don't think of those as a style. A better way to answer the original question might be to ask: Do you want the value retained in the mark-up, or is it purely a style that painted onto the presentational layer? Or, worded another way, should the boldened treatment exist without styles? If it should, then the b might be best. Otherwise I heartily agreee that the span element should be used. Respectfully, Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Hi Rachel, I'd be very interested in reading your article when it's ready For better or worse, it's published: http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=254 Cheers. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Small element (was:Styling forms)
Hi Thomas, In HTML4 it's a font style element on the line with b and i etc I guess I've always considered it a font-sizing element more than a styling thing, though the final result is a visual style. I've always felt it has a meaning of being less important than the surrounding text. An afterthought, a byline, some fineprint, or supporting sub-text. can we say that small has a semantic meaning now? I always felt it did in an odd sort of way. I judge its use again with styles off. If I really want the text to be smaller to effectively separate its meaning from the surrounding text, then I use the small element. If it shouldn't be, or if I'm not sure or can't decide, or I don't care one way or the other, then I don't use it. If I still want it to appear smaller for some reason I will likely use a span element instead to style the text in question without dimishing its value as it relate to the surrounding content. However, when I usually want text to be smaller, then it is usually because I feel it *is* less important falling into one of the categories I mentioned, so I usually end up using the small tag. I may use it more than some people for this reason. Same thing applies to the b element, but differently. The b element is meant to be a highlight. I end up never using it because I always end up asking myself why I want to highlight something. My answer always guides me. If it's purely stylistic then I use a span, but I usually want to hightlight a word because it is meant to be spoken with emphasis (inflection) so I'll end up using em. Or it may be more important than the surrouding (a common reason to highlight a word or phrase), then I use the important element: strong. b is one of those I don't really have a use for. I use the i element more regularly becuase the W3C is more clear about it, and its uses are more distinct and meaningful My thoughts on those two elements are spelled out in more detail here: http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=222 Cheers. Mike I think this might be one of those double-edged swords. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Hello Thomas, But I'm not sure I feel comfortable with a br between the label and input. I know developers are mostly split down the middle about this issue that I've seen. To me, and perhaps this is really silly, but I really like my sites to look and be just as usable with styles off as they are with styles on, and I find adding breaks really neatens up the form visually when viewing the site without styles, organizing it a bit. To me that's a positive thing. I don't think the break use has any bearing on the accessibility of the form's elements so that doesn't seem to have bearing on my decision. No negatives that I'm aware of. Semantically speaking, I think the introduction of a break is akin to adding a slight pause. I don't think that has any bearing on accessibility to that end either. I will say this, though, I do respect the choice made by those who choose not to use it. So much so that the third version of my contact form script has a configuration variable called $add_breaks to which entering yes will add them in and entering no remove them. Each to their own I figured. No harm either way that I know of so I may as well be accommodating :) Cheers. Mike - Original Message - From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Very interesting article. I'm reevaluating my options about lists on forms. But I'm not sure I feel comfortable with a br between the label and input. Semantically it looks like it separates them, even though the FOR attributes connects them. If the br came after the input then both the label and the input ends up in the same line without any CSS styling. - Original Message - From: Mike at Green-Beast.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Hi Rachel, I'd be very interested in reading your article when it's ready For better or worse, it's published: http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=254 Cheers. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Small element (was:Styling forms)
Hello Thomas, One of your examples: p iWhy does this semantic markup stuff have to be so unclear at times/i, he thought. /p Wouldn't it be more appropriate to use: p qWhy does this semantic markup stuff have to be so unclear at times/q, he thought. /p ...since it's quoting a person's though? It's not really a quote, though. And the context belongs to the thinker. Thus I feel the i element is more appropriate in this case. With the i it'll semantically identified and a thought or dream, whereas with q it'd be a quote and, I think, slightly off mark. And then there's IE and the q requiring some sort of workaround. As for: p The nematicidal marigold, i lang=laTagetes minutum/i, can grow to 8-10 feet. /p wouldn't that be better as: p The nematicidal marigold, dfnTagetes minutum/dfn, can grow to 8-10 feet. /p As this then defines what Tagetes minutum is? I think using the defining instance element would be good in this case, especially being that the new term is defined to a certain extent immediately following the term, and it would provide the appropriate default styling (foreign language in italics). It would perhaps be an even better choice than that which I chose. I do think adding in the language attribute would complete the picture: dfn lang=laTagetes minutum/dfn Cheers. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Hi Thierry,
As a side note, I style these BRs with display:none.
I'm curious, what effect does that have on the styled page?Do you do
something like...
label {
display : block;
}
br {
display : none;
}
Thanks.
Mike
- Original Message -
From: Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 2:32 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Styling forms
On Behalf Of Mike at Green-Beast.com
I don't think the break use has any bearing on the accessibility of the
form's elements so that doesn't seem to have bearing on my decision. No
negatives that I'm aware of.
Semantically speaking, I think the introduction of a break is akin to
adding
a slight pause. I don't think that has any bearing on accessibility to
that
end either.
I use the line break because without it and without styles support, labels
and input fields appear next to each other.
I think this may be confusing to some people; they could visually
associate a label with the wrong input field.
As a side note, I style these BRs with display:none.
--
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com
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Re: [WSG] Styling forms
I don't use display:block, most of the time I float everything and use the label to clear. Depending on the width of the labels I may use text-align:right; to move the text in the label toward the text box. I also set the widths in EMs, to avoid the text to wrap if it grows. With the fieldset width set in pixels, when these elements grow, they simply pile up without breaking anything. If I kill the BRs it is just to make sure they don't create any vertical space. Thanks Thierry. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
fwiw, I think BRs are the perfect fit. I agree. :) Mike - Original Message - From: Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 1:55 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] Styling forms On Behalf Of Thomas Thomassen Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:29 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms While I see your point, what I find to be troublesome is that Label and Input are inline elements. While it's easy to wrap the Inputs in Labels and make the Labels block elements, with just plain HTML and no CSS that means a form's elements will end up all in one long line. fwiw, I think BRs are the perfect fit. -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Still need some extra elements to organise them. Such as lists. I don't know why that would be. Proper use of form elements is the only organizational support needed. In my opinion, use of any other non-form elements on form's isn't necessary, or advantageous and, if not careful, can actually take away from the form. Just like a p doesn't need a td, a label + input combo doesn't need an li. Old conversation, I know, but I just had to chime in. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ - Original Message - From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Fieldsets and Labels is present in HTML4 as well. Don't see anything new about that. Still need some extra elements to organise them. Such as lists. - Original Message - From: Joe Ortenzi To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:36 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Has anyone looked up the HTML 5 pages on form elements? http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/ http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#forms It's all fieldsets and labels... which makes more semantic sense than paragraphs, lists, and dd/dl JOe On Feb 6 2008, at 04:06, Steve Green wrote: There may be specific cases where it would be right to mark up a form as a list, although I can't think of one. As a general rule it would be wrong. The argument against marking up a form as a list is that a form is not a list. A form is one or more groups of form controls, and the fieldset element is the correct means by which form controls should be grouped. Within a fieldset, paragraph elements should be used for individual form controls. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: 06 February 2008 03:38 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Styling forms I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs. What are the arguments for the different markup types. -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Hello Thomas, How does screenreaders treat using just labelinput//label? I'm writing an article on just that thing now. Jaws is okay with it, but Windows Eyes chokes on it. That in itself may not be too-too important due to the number of users, but I'm 99.99% sure that Safari on Mac users will have difficulty (at best) actually inputting content in such a form input. I can't replicate this on Safari for Windows, but I have gotten lots of feedback to go on. I actually just updated both of my version two contact forms today to correct this (v3 was already fixed). I've been fixing forms all day actually. I have come to the conclusion that the only proper method is... label for=fooFoo Text/label input id=foo Though I suppose input alt=Foo Text would also be okay. Cheers. Mike - Original Message - From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms hm... this thread has given me a thinker. How does screenreaders treat using just labelinput//label? form fieldset labelFoo: input id=foo//label labelBar: input id=bar//label /fieldset /form How will it present the form? If it's all inline, will it be read continuous, or will there be a break between the elements? - Original Message - From: Joe Ortenzi To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 9:31 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Well done Alexey! Are we not confusing semantics with presentational here? if it is OK to strip the presentational out of a list element (when we use a list for a navigation group and want our navigation elements in a row instead of a column) what is wrong with supplanting the inline quality of a label/input group by designating it a block element, and then group several form elements, or even each label input group with fieldsets? BTW: br / is the equivalent of a force carriage return and thus belongs within paragraphs, i thought! Joe On Feb 7 2008, at 19:55, Алексей Новиков wrote: On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:29 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms TK fwiw, I think BRs are the perfect fit. BRs? Are BRs semantically correct? I believe they aren't. -- Regards, Alexey Novikov http://studiomade.ru *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Definition List appropriate for FAQ?
Hello Christian, I've been trying to decide which is more semantically correct for an FAQ [...] definition list is probably the most appropriate My vote is in favor of a DL. I feel it is absolutely the most appropriate element to use in such a case. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com Join Accessible Web Developers on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=7010678585 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] autostrech rounded css rectangle
Hello Naveen, help me to get an autostretch rounded css rectangle. Would this meet your needs? It can be a rectangle if you want. http://mikecherim.com/experiments/css_smart_corners.php Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page.
Don't forget, with all the best barriers in place, one can always transcribe the content so the only real solution, as James wrote: If you don't want information copied from your web page then don't put in on the web. period. Holiday cheers. Mike Cherim - Original Message - From: James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:37 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page. Hi This is an oft asked question by a lot of clients and relies on a basic misundertanding of how documents are passed around the internet. Basically, it is impossible (see examples below). If you don't want information copied from your web page then don't put in on the web. period. Additionally, copy+paste is one of the most fundamental actions on any device, disabling it is pretty rude and nigh on impossible anway - on some desktop environments you can determine your own keystrokes to copy and paste that are known only to you and can't be detected by client side code e.g Ctrl-Alt-Tab-C for copying Examples: 1. Lets disable right click functionaity! results: - users lose functionality - easy workaround workaround 1: $ wget http://www.example.com/ 'copy of your home page.html' workaround 2: install some firefox extension to ignore right click disable requests by a page workaround 3: use the google cache or the web archive workaround 4: take it out of the brower cache - where it is copied anyway 2. Let's encrypt the html! results: no such thing - it's encoding, not encryption. When you encode something anyone can decode it. If it is encryption you'd have to pass a shared key to a public resource or expect your visitors to have that encryption key. slows down page rendering - it has to be decoded by JS usually. workaround 1: - decode_function(html) 'decoded copy.html' 3. Let's disable the printer requests! - see workaround 1.3,1.1,1.4 4. Use images / flash / pdf to render content - content generally inaccessible to search engines and screen readers - decode with OCR technology (crackers can easily do this with captchas) 5. transparent image over content - adblock the image workaround 1: - save as file.html html only Copyright infringment is best left up to the lawyers - but then there is the argument of content being in the public domain anyway. If you are in a closed intranet environment one way to do it would be to employ someone who runs around everytime a page is rendered in a browser and shouts very loudly remember not to copy and paste! :) Thanks James On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 09:48:17 am Nick Roper wrote: Hi, We have been asked by a client whether it is possible to any extent to prevent/deter users from copying content from a particular web page. The page will comprise two main areas: 1) Selection options in the form of select lists, check boxes etc. 2) Once the criteria have been selected then a 'Search' button will initiate a script that will query the database and display resulting text records in tabular format. The requirement is that the the user should be able to view the resulting output, but not to be able to copy/paste to other applications. Is this possible to achieve in a way that is standards-compliant - or indeed in any way at all? One suggestion has been to apply a transparent image over the results table - but not sure if this could be done with CSS etc? If this is considered off-topic then I would welcome suggestions for more appropriate forums. Many thanks in anticipation. Regards, *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] typepad css problem
Hello Michael,
trying to create a button affect
a:{
[...]
}
but it is not working.
Remove the colon after the anchor element, or add the word link (a:link)
after it. Do bear in mind, as written, it may affect links you don't want it
to so you will either want to specify it with a class or ID [1], or assign
it to a parent [2].
--
[1]
a class=foo href=/Foo/a
a.foo {
your : styles;
}
--
[2]
p class=fooa href=/Foo/a
p.foo a {
your : styles;
}
--
Make sense?
Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com
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Re: [WSG] Appropriate use of the ABBR tag and Roman Numerals
Hello Tate, I'm in the process of representing the date in Roman Numerals. I'm concerned this may confuse potential users, and would like to display an optional tooltip in the standard Gregorian format. Would it be considered semantically appropriate to make use of the abbr tag? Or maybe a defining instance? dfn title=The year 2007MMVII/dfn I think that might have more inherent value. Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Markup question
Hi John, I would use either a definition list or plain old headings and paragraphs. I say this because while they are numbered, I wouldn't think they are actually ordered. An ordered list should be used if the ordering is specific (think driving directions), but a club constitution wouldn't be ordered. I would think the numbers are used to identify the content sections but not the ordering. To retain this probable meaning, a heading with the number as part of the heading would be the most logical, most light-weight, and most accessible solution. This could be followed by the same within the paragraphs, perhaps adding a strong tag to the number to show importance (that is officially what strong is for). My secondary suggestion would be a DL as I wrote, but again with the numbers added in as content. Respectively, Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com - Original Message - From: John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 4:19 PM Subject: [WSG] Markup question I have to mark up a club constitution where all the paragraphs are numbered but there are also headings that are supposed to relate to paragraphs, e.g.: Heading 1 1. Paragraph goes here 2. Paragraph goes here 3. Paragraph goes here Heading 2 4. Paragraph goes here 5. Paragraph goes here Heading 3 6. Paragraph goes here etc. An ordered list seems like the most obvious choice but what would I do with the headings which fall outside of the list items? -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Less than and greater than in UTF-8 encoded HTML
Hello Simon, How should I code less than and greater than signs in UTF-8 encoded HTML? The quick brown fox said 3 is less than 4, then he wrote 3 4. The quick brown fox said 3 is less than 4, then he wrote 3 lt; 4. Greater than, , is written as gt; Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Web Form Best Practices
Hello Howard, some form templates Any help focusing my search? I can offer a demo form [1] and a post about some (hopefully) best practices [2]. There is also an accessible form builder [3] at Accessify.com. No templates per se, but maybe these will be helpful. [1] http://green-beast.com/gbcf/ [2] http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=206 [3] http://www.accessify.com/tools-and-wizards/accessibility-tools/form-builder/ Hope this helps. Cheers. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS help
Hello Rob, I don't have (or know how to have) a structured system of building my style sheets. Maybe this will help? A CSS Starter File http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=109 Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take
I can offer this simple method: http://mikecherim.com/experiments/css_smart_corners.php I prefer spans over divs because divs do have semantic value as divisions whereas span are like puffs of air in that they serve as nothing more than a hook for styles, etc. I'd rather offer a span to accept the background than a full div. That's my take on it anyway. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take
Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Mike check out the example I posted earlier and you can see how it can be done without all the extra markup. I need a link please. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take
Jixor - Stephen I wrote: http://jixor.com/Stuff/Web/Panes Thanks. That's clever and simple. Cheers. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] How z-index works
I'd appreciate any comments that would help me improve this tool: http://tjkdesign.com/articles/z-index/teach_yourself_how_elements_stack.asp That's really cool Thierry :-) Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] How z-index works
BTW: congrats for your move with the Guild :) [1] Thank you. Cheers. Mike [1] http://accessites.org/site/2007/10/accessites-and-gawds-cooperate/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Alt text for purely aesthetic images
If an image is purely for presentation then use CSS and apply it as a background image. I personally don't think of this as some hard-and-fast rule, or even a rule-of-thumb since it's often impractical. I will often apply a decorative or supporting image for visual purposes, but if I have to add classed mark-up (to style it) and a CSS entry for every decorative image on my sites it'd seriously get out-of-hand quicky. I feel it is best to first assess the image which then tells me what to do with it. I did make a blog entry [1] year about this assessment protocol, and I have addressed the topic more generally this year in another entry [2]. Not everyone will agree with these, but it's what I've managed to sort out for myself. To me it makes sense. [1] The Alt and Accessibility http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=81 [2] Adding Embedded Images to a Web Page http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=203 Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Encoded mailto links - and mail sender
Hello Anders, Is there any way to protect this from being used as a way to send out spam? You can't really know that people enter their own emailaddress ... A person could use it to send the copy to someone else, but then again people are the most difficult to control. I do offer an IP blacklist with this to deal with people if necessary (a weak control at best since not everyone has a static IP). A robot shouldn't be able to do it, though. The form has a number of measures to prevent 'bot submissions and exploitation, one of which is a honeypot (a baited input) which someone had mentioned before. That said, even though people are the most difficult to control, they don't seem to be the real problem. The problem seems to be with 'bots so that's the form's main focus. Cheers. Mike - Original Message - From: Anders Nawroth [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Encoded mailto links - and mail sender Hi! Mike at Green-Beast.com skrev: I offer that in my contact form. It's a config option. The contact form owner can enable/disable offering a get-a-copy option to his/her visitors. Is there any way to protect this from being used as a way to send out spam? You can't really know that people enter their own emailaddress ... /anders *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Encoded mailto links - and mail sender
Good point, Patrick. I'll certainly consider offering a checkbox as a UI option for 'send me a copy of the contents of this form'. I'd certainly be interested if this could be done in php by assigning the user's mail address as a string, then posting to it. Anyone done that? I offer that in my contact form. It's a config option. The contact form owner can enable/disable offering a get-a-copy option to his/her visitors. http://green-beast.com/blog/?page_id=71 (Stand alone version) http://green-beast.com/blog/?page_id=136 (WordPress version) Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Encoded mailto links
Thanks for the heads up on that, Patrick. I'm going to contact him and ask he remove that. Domain registration records is another source I think. :-( Cheers. Mike - Original Message - From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:50 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Encoded mailto links Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote: My personal policy is to never put an email address on the web unless it's written out using plain text The problem there is that, quite often, you don't have much control over things like web-based email archives, e.g. http://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/search?keywords=cherim (though admittedly there are only 3 hits, matching an old email address of yours, but still...all it takes is one occurrence somewhere on the web) oh, this was interesting (check the first post there) http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2312012 -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Encoded mailto links
Or Golan wrote: Why not simply display the email address as a simple mailto only when the browser is a screen reader? A screen reader attaches to a visual browser as an add-on thus it cannot be detected. It's a shame as that would solve some problems. Text browsers can be detected, but screen readers cannot. Moreover, once that is relied upon it can be spoofed. I created two experimental solutions. [1] One was found out due to browser spoofing and I now get a spam or two each week. [2] My other experiment has proven itself effective thus far, and to the best of my knowledge it is quite accessible. I agree with Patrick that solving the issue on the site isn't the best way, but only to a degree as it leaves two things up in the air. One is a problem for me in that I cannot apply filters because I need to gauge solution effectiveness. The other is exposing my email and filtering on the mail server will still make the email available to harvesters. Harvesters don't just use your email to send you spam, but they also use it as a from or reply-to on spam sent to others. It'll look like it came from you. My personal policy is to never put an email address on the web unless it's written out using plain text so it's understandable to people but not understandable to robots (Send mail to mikecherim at this domain... etc). Most obfuscation techniques I've seen either don't work well or they aren't accessible to all. As far as character encoding doesn't work (using server side tech or JS), though it is accessible. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ [1] Somewhat effective but not completely: http://mikecherim.com/experiments/php_hide_email.php [2] So far so good (knock-on-wood): http://mikecherim.com/experiments/php_email_protector.php - Original Message - From: Or Golan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 10:33 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Encoded mailto links Why not simply display the email address as a simple mailto only when the browser is a screen reader? On 10/17/07, Rick Lecoat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 17/10/07 (14:16) Patrick said: Fix your spam issues at the mail server + mail client end, not at the web page end, would be my advice. David said: I, long ago, gave up trying. Methods are either highly ineffective, or block out users you want as well as spam bots. I take the view that email addresses are going to end up on spam lists eventually no matter what I do, and just run spam filtering software. So the general consensus would seem to be forgeddabowdit. I wondered if that would be the result, but I'm surprised that there isn't a workaround -- only because almost everything else that I thought would be impossible some clever person has found a way to do. To join with Andrew Maben, however, I'd be curious to know whether spambots decode encoded entity text, eg: 'user' becomes '#117;#115;#101;#114;' (ignore quote marks). I assume that they can read them perfectly easily -- browsers can, after all -- but it'd be good to know for sure. Same question for screen readers. -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Story Boards
doing a project for my website development course. now, part of the requirements says that i need to create a story board to represent what content is to be displayed on each page. Hello Marvin, Could something like this possibly work for you? http://green-beast.com/autorun/ There are some in-use examples on the Summary page, one being a step-by-step CSS tutorial, another for a presentation, and a third being used to showcase some land. Is the application accessible to you? I tried my best to make it so but it was challenging. Respectfully, Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
Better yet, since not everyone can see, lets require all publications to include a braille copy Copyrighted publications in the US are copied to Braille for the most part (with copyright holder's permission) by the Library of Congress. I want to visit the summit of mount everest... I suppose the people of tibet should install an escalator just so I can reach the top due to my less-then-perfect phisical status. Mount Everest?! Please, get serious. If you're going to provide a comparison, use something logical. Your comparison is akin to comparing an apple to a hippopotamus. Not even close. Let's instead compare the brick-n-mortar Target stores with the web site. Are you against the law that requires access to their stores, ramps, parking spots, wider doors, restroom aids, etc. Where is the line drawn? Why did that law come to be? It is the result of the courts because businesses didn't do it on their own and had to be pushed. The ADA spoke for a minority. Businesses are notorious for doing the very least that they can until the law tells them otherwise. Notorious! It's all about numbers, money, and risk management. I despise lawsuits, but this one is for the greater good, and as has been proven in the past, necessary. It's hard enough living with a disability without the ignorant, the selfish, or the greedy making life harder. Target spent millions making their stores accessible. To make the site accessible is so much less. So much easier for them. And yet, left to command themselves, they did nothing. In fact, once asked to correct the issues the first time all they did was complain, try to justify their crappy site, and took little to no action. Choice? Cut off your legs and see how limited choice gets. The web is easy access for lots of people who have certain difficulties, even with full ADA compliance in a physical location. My cousin was a quadriplegic and she hardly went anywhere because it was a huge hassle doing anything. Give her a pointed stick, put it in her mouth, and place a computer in front of her, though, and she was free to roam and happy as a lark. She literally drooled over the experience! I can't see how any business or site can justify the failure to remove the barriers that would have blocked her access. I better stop now. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Title links in navigation elements
Hello Cole, I'm a little confused: are TITLE attributes required for a href navigation elements? Won't screen readers verbalize the contents of the wording between a href tags? They will read the linked text and a screen reader user will normally turn off title expansion (I think it's off by default). So, text rules. The title attribute is a very weak conveyence of information. If it's important it should be as text. Personally, I use the title attribute mostly to expand information on external links, but this is only readily available to mouse (pointer) users so I try to add some clarity within the context. Here's an example of how I might use it (extracted from an actual usage at http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=214): [...] I decided to ask my Swedish friend a href=http://www.autisticcuckoo.net/; title=Autistic CuckooTommy Olsson/a on board to co-author the project. I hope this helps. Respectfully, Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Form styling
Hi John, With your labels set to display: block, you don't realy need the extra br at the end of each one. ;) You're right, of course, but I think it's a good idea to keep the breaks. Not everyone supports styles so the breaks keep the form neat without them. My 2 cents. Cheers. Mike Cherim Just relaunched as v5: http://greenmethods.com/ - Original Message - From: John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Form styling http://www.dave-woods.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/accessible-forms1.html With your labels set to display: block, you don't realy need the extra br at the end of each one. ;) -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple, almost silly, question:
Hello Micky, It sort of looks like you answered your own question: Would it make more sense to style a sub-headline [...] Being that you called it a sub-headline is probably indicative of how you think of this line and how you should mark it up. Though, if you don't want it to be styled or look like a heading you can change that in your style sheet while keeping the semantics intact. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ - Original Message - From: Micky Hulse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 5:25 PM Subject: [WSG] Simple, almost silly, question: Hi, I have a headline styled as an H2, like so: h2Headline for main story/h2 Would it make more sense to style a sub-headline as an h3 or as a non-header? I was thinking this made sense: h2Headline for main story/h2 h3This is the subhead for the main story/h3 Thoughts? :) Thanks in advance! Cheers, Micky -- Wishlist: http://tinyurl.com/22xonb Switch: http://browsehappy.com/ BCC?: http://snipurl.com/w6f8 My: http://del.icio.us/mhulse *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Popup 'box' on hover
How about this: http://mikecherim.com/experiments/css_map_pop.php? This could be adapted easily I think. Cheers. Mike Cherim - Original Message - From: Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 10:23 AM Subject: [WSG] Popup 'box' on hover Hi, A client would like functionality similar to that used on istockphoto.com - i.e. that a 'popup' window is displayed with a larger image and some text when the user hovers over a thumbnail image. e.g. Can I do this with CSS in a standards-compliant and works cross-browser way? Any pointers or references to example code gratefully received. Thanks, Nick -- Nick Roper partner logical elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Looking for a Stylesheet Switcher Script
Ryan Moore wrote: I'm looking for a Stylesheet Switcher Script that users can use to dynamically change text sizes on the fly. Hello Ryan, One might argue that offering a style changer solely to increase font size is something to reconsider, and I would agree, but then again, there's no real harm in doing this. Here are two PHP scripts that you are welcome to use. 1) PHP Font Sizer: This lightweight script is a straight-up font sizer offer the user 4 values (default settings are 100%, 120%, 140%, 160%). This script requires the user accepts cookies and it doesn't check for this unlike the next option. This script was made in July of 2006 and could probably be tweaked, but that's always the case. http://mikecherim.com/experiments/php_font_sizer.php 2) PHP Style Changer: This smart script first tests to see if the user accepts cookies. If they do accept cookies then the script user interface (simple text link) will be available to them. If they don't allow cookies they can get a message saying a script is available to them if they decide to change that settings, or, better yet, just don't offer the feature they can't use. Just make sure the text size is adequate upon landing. This script is optimized for two style sheets, but it can be extended with a little effort. This script was made in Sept of 2006 and could probably be tweaked, but that's always the case. http://mikecherim.com/experiments/php_style_changer.php The advantage to these is that they are both server-side scripts so they don't require that the user have JavaScript enabled in addition to cookies. Hope this is useful to you. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank
Users can choose to open a new window or tab if they want to (though many will need to be taught this). If the choice is made for them by implementing the target attribute, the power of choice and preference is taken from them and it's irretrievable. Personally I prefer links to open in the same Window. But that's me. And I don't want to force my preference on anyone. That's why it's nicer to leave it to the user to decide. The only way to let users decide is to open links in the same window by default and teach said users a function of their browser they may not be aware of. Or to provide some preference control widget. My two cents. Cheers. Mike Cherim - Original Message - From: Ryan Lin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank Well, I am just gathering more argument points so that the clients have nothing to say but to agree and accept the concept. :) Hassan Schroeder wrote: Ryan Lin wrote: With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link via target=_blank is not a valid semantic method anymore. I myself believe that whether to open in a new or current window should be user decision, not wed designer/developer. Why? If you have logical arguments about this, beyond believing, why can't you use them to convince your clients? Just askin' :-) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Triggering POSTs with links?
Richard Ishida wrote: It's annoying that it doesn't work so well in Opera, but I'd rather give the problem to Opera users than IE users. This also seems a much more sensible approach. I guess I should contact Opera and see if we can't get this 'fixed'. I'm bummed it doesn't work as well in Opera. I just realized that last night before I sent it (hence the after thought disclaimer). It's a usability issue because Opera users will think they can click something when they can't. Can't rely on a title attribute of course thus I think the best option is to make the visible text more clear -- temporary solution, anyway. What I just did on my daughter's blog (http://sarahcherim.com/) is change the label text From: Use PayPal to give Sarah some college money as a way of saying thanks and good luck! To: Click the dancing cow to give Sarah some college money with PayPal as a way of saying thanks and good luck! And that way at least the what to do clue is visible to Opera users, and everyone else can get away with missing the cow and clicking the text so it's more like an enhancement. I had to do something. Still didn't add the legend, but I'll do that when I have more time to fool with it so it doesn't change the look. Just a thought. Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***pixel.gif
Re: [WSG] Triggering POSTs with links?
Thierry Koblentz wrote: I came up with this: http://www.tjkdesign.com/lab/button.asp But it requires to move the text out of the button :( I'm sort of just catching the end of this, but are you guys talking about something like what I did on my daughter's blog [1]? [1] http://sarahcherim.com/ (look at the Contribution Cow on the sidebar) I didn't use button (not sure if that's was the point or just making clickable image/text form posting). Cheers. Mike Cherim PS. Just a little disclaimer, looking at the image/text form on that site I realized I should have used a legend instead of the heading. It's not clickable in Opera either, by the way -- just the image. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?
Lucien Stals wrote: But a DIV is void of semantic. Hello Lucien, I'm pretty sure a fieldset should only be used to group form controls. But others have written that. The reason I'm responding is because of that written above. A div does have semantic value in that it's a division or section. As far as I know the only element that offers nothing but air is the lowly span. Respectfully, Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields
Frank Palinkas wrote: For simple forms, I really like the technique of separating Required from Optional fields. Instead of dividing the form into two fieldsets (Required/Optional) would it be semantically/accessibly correct to instead use a header element (for example h4) to separate/identify the two areas? Even though officially it is not, I sort of think of a legend as a heading -- a specialized, single purpose form-section heading, if you will. I like your idea, but those headings might be skipped in the user has a screen reader in form's mode ... I think (someone please confirm). If this is indeed a fact, some users would miss them which might confuse the form's use even more. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Katrina wrote:
I note that in Mike's example, he using
a br / in order to achieve a block-level
style visual. Surely that should be avoidable?
http://green-beast.com/gbcf/gbcf_form.php
Certainly it would be avoidable using label { display : block; } but I
wanted the form to retain its current organization regardless of
CSS-controls. I do believe this is an acceptable (as in non-harmful) use of
the break element.
If the fieldset to contain label/input pairs is true
It probably shouldn't be used for pairing as you describe, but rather a
group of inputs that all share some common-ground. In my case I use them to
contain groups of required versus non-required inputs as well as the type of
information sought (contact info, etc.). I should have probably not done
that to the submit type input though. That, I'm thinking it would have
better left in the form's main fieldset and not given its own since it's
grouped in with the form itself (a whole-form control) so to speak.
Cheers.
Mike Cherim
- Original Message -
From: Katrina [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
While I agree that use of lists, tables or definition lists is mere
abuse, a fieldset is for grouping thematically related controls and
labels:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#edef-FIELDSET
So a hypothetical (semantic!) form could/should look something like this
(I'm sure there are at least a million things wrong with my example -
pretend those errors aren't there):
form action= method=
fieldsetlegendThe legend for the form/legend
fieldsetlabel for=nameYou Name/labelinput type=text
name=name id=name/fieldset
fieldsetlabel for=poetFavourite poet/labelinput
type=text id=poet name=poet/fieldset
fieldsetlabel for=dinosaurFavourite dinsaur/labelinput
type=text name=dinosaur id=dinosaur/fieldset
/fieldset
/form
My point being that fieldset could be used to wrap label and input pairs?
I always thought you had to have a group of controls (more than one
input field).
I note that in Mike's example, he using a br / in order to achieve a
block-level style visual. Surely that should be avoidable?
http://green-beast.com/gbcf/gbcf_form.php
If the fieldset to contain label/input pairs is true, it would be
exciting because it would mean that the form would look reasonable in
vanilla and could maintain semantics.
Kat
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Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields
Paul Novitski wrote: As Thierry indicates, the original rationale behind this structure was undoubtedly simply to avoid cluttering a form occupying limited real estate with the word 'required' beside every required field. That's why I like my technique of using fieldsets to group the required inputs. It serves the purpose, doesn't clutter, and doesn't rely on symbolism (and extra mark-up to make said symbolism more accessible). fieldset legendRequired Contact Info:/legend label for=nameEnter your full name:br / input type=text id=name name=name value= / /label label for=emailEnter your email address:br / input type=text id=email name=email value= / /label /fieldset fieldset legendOptional Contact Info:/legend label for=phoneEnter your phone number:br / input type=text id=phone name=phone value= / /label label for=urlEnter your web site address:br / input type=text id=url name=url value=http://; / /label /fieldset Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields
Paul Novitski wrote: What if it were simply the word required? pEnter your contact information:/p fieldset legendRequired:/legend label for=nameName:br / input type=text id=name name=name value= / /label ... That would vocalize required name, required email address, required password, etc. Oh, Paul, you da man. I do like that suggestion very much. It is aurally perfect (a lot less wordy) and visually precise. Very good! Cheers. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields
Mordechai Peller wrote: Interesting; but what if you need (as is commonly the case) non-required fields interspersed with required ones? Optional I suppose. Just group them accordingly using the technique. fieldset legendOptional:/legend labelPhone input [...] / /label labelWeb site input [...] / /label /fieldset In a new fieldset grouping optional inputs. Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields
John Faulds wrote: But sometimes at least one phone number might be required but others are optional (e.g. mobile, home, fax etc) - doesn't seem as logical to split your phone number fields up into different groupings. Great point, John. That's a conundrum for sure. And it will happen, the frequency thereof is probably in proportion to a form's complexity. In the example you illustrate it might be okay to stick to the required/optional thing, like so. Enter contact info in the form below. fieldset legend: required label/input: name label/input: email label/input: phone fieldset legend: optional label/input: fax label/inout: web But I can definitely see instances where that just woudn't do and the logical groupings wouldn't allow such an easy solution. That's when we'd have to revisit one of the other methods we've been comtemplating I suppose, treating each occurence independantly unless a one-size-fits-all solution is found. A likely candidate might be putting the word in the in the label. fieldset legend: foo stuff label/input: required foo one label/input: optional foo two label/input: required foo red label/input: optional foo blue :-) Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields
Terrence Wood wrote: Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote: A likely candidate might be putting the word in the in the label. which will bring us back to doe. doe a deer, a female deer [from the sound of music]... I said: How about just including (required) on the end of each label, Then, Thierry Koblentz wrote: Some clients do not want this at all, they think it pollutes the visual. Hello Terrence, Yep. That's why I preceded that with: That's when we'd have to revisit one of the other methods we've been contemplating I suppose. If that's the client's request it'd be time to wear one of the two hats we are forced to put on sometimes: 1) Wizard hat to figure out the best way deal with the situation at hand. 2) Salesman hat to convince the client of the benefits of usability and accessibility. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields
Hello Thierry, What about marking up * used in forms with ABBR elements? In your example you left the text instruction. pFields marked with * (asterisk) are required./p Thus I'd say further treatment is unnecessary. And if you change that by removing the text instruction, there's no guarantee the user will get the expansion. In fact, if what I understand is correct in that most screen reader users don't expland abbreviations, they would only get asterisk spoken to them. They might wonder what its significance is. Then again, and this may be a dangerous assumption on anyone's part, one might argue that an asterisk within a form label means that it is required and that this is a given... that everyone knows it. Or do they? :-/ --- As an aside, if something of this sort was a viable solution, I would lean towards using the defining instance element, DFN, to mark this up. dfn title=Require field*/dfn But the same issue applies to DFN as it pertains to the expansion of titles -- I think. That's my two cents, anyway. I'll be interested in what others have to say about this. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Karl Lurman wrote:
How am I going to highlight the label input
pair without a container div? A fieldset?
Hello Karl,
I will add a div or paragraph to a form if needed. A division in the form
normally marked by color or a border is okay (as that slight meaning will be
carried by the Div in the same way) and if -- I don't usually -- I'm after a
style I can't seem to achieve with the form's own elements. I just don't
feel a table or list is the right way. Paragraph elements for errors if
they're on the same page are okay, and spans are like little bundles of air
so they're okay. I don't want to add something to the form that is going to
disrupt its inherent goodness, so to speak.
Now, regarding your example, I wonder if something like this could be done
in the partial form example below (?). Just thinking out loud. It's late
here so I haven't the time to test it...
pFields marked with * (asterisk) are required./p
labelspan*/span Name: ?php echo $error; ?
input value= /
/label
- Note: Error would be empty if not applicable. And the script outputted
error would be in an unclassed span like the asterisk.
Okay, now here's the proposed CSS...
label {
display : block;
width : 99%;
height : auto;
padding : 5px 10px;
margin : 5px;
text-align : right;
border : 1px solid #000;
background-color : #eee;
}
label span {
color : red;
font-weight : bold;
}
input {
width : 30%;
text-align : left;
margin : 5px;
display : inline;
border : 1px solid #666;
background-color : #f9f9f9;
}
I'm *guessing* the input will display within the somewhat styled label. But
like I wrote, I didn't test it, I'd most likely have to fuss with it. And if
I had to have the styling but couldn't figure it out eventually, I think the
best remaining solution would be a Div so that's what I'd use too.
Cheers.
Mike Cherim
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Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Good morning :-) I should have expanded my example a little more since I do use the for attribute in labels, even when directly (implicitly?) associated: form fieldset legendSend us your contact info/legend pFields marked with * (asterisk) are required./p label for=namespan*/span Name: ?php echo error(); ? input type=text id=name name=name value= / /label label for=emailspan*/span Email: ?php echo error(); ? input type=text id=email name=email value= / /label label for=urlWeb site: input type=text id=url name=url value= / /label /fieldset /form (Note: The labels/names were chosen to best accommodate autofill users.) Karl Lurman wrote: About putting the error in the label, not sure on that one either. Is an error a label after all... Me neither actually, just not sure. In a way I think it's smart for accessibility in that it changes that label (changes what it says and what it means), and for locating the offense I think it's smart. On my form the errors are on a different screen with a #results bookmark so when submitted the user is brought directly to the result of their action (same for the success confirmation message), but getting back can be problematic. Either way, for screen reader users it can't be easy to know: 1) The results of their action. 2) How/where to fix the result if needed if unsuccessful. Man, I hope for us all that the new HTML and XHTML standards cover form semantics better... Hehe, that might be a good thing. Take out some of the gray areas. It'll have to be pretty complete though since most of the gray areas are content-related and there are so many unique situations :-) Cheers and happy Friday! Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
David Dorward wrote: Why not? In response to... Stuart Foulstone wrote: The for attribute should NOT be used when the label tag encloses the label text. My question exactly. I can't see that it is in any way harmful. Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mocking up web interfaces
David Laakso wrote Notepad. Me too. In my head I establish the looks of the design have a feel for colors, and know of some images, or a good idea of what I want in the end anyway (I can see the final product in my mind's eye), but I don't mock it up. I go right to Notepad and begin the structure. If I did mock it up as an image first, I'd use Fireworks, though. Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Mariusz Nowak wrote: And other way - where it is written in specs that forms cannot contain tabular data? I would never use tables for anything else as for tabular data.. and it may happen that form constitutes tabular data. In such case I think we should use table element to structure that. I think may be some confusion, Mariusz, because so far this discussion has been about putting a form in a separate structure such as a table or dl to contain or organize the form, not about putting a structure (like a table) in a form. It's the latter you seem to be talking about. I, too, was a bit confused by your first post because of this. Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Sander Aarts wrote: Does a form not have a sort of QA going on then!? Hello Sander, If one tries hard enough, it seems anything can be considered a list of sorts. For example: A web page is a list of headings and content paragraphs, but we wouldn't use a list to layout an entire web page, so we instead use the appropriate mark-up: Headings and paragraphs. A form is a list of controls and their related inputs, but we wouldn't use a list to organize form controls, so we'd use fieldsets/legends, labels and inputs. Using the QA scenario which you might use to try and justify the use of a DL to organize a form, let's swap out the elements with their appropriate ones (which need to be used anyway). DL = Fieldset ?? = Legend DT = Label (the Q) DD = Input (the A) It seems to me the form has everything we need to properly organize it. Once it's made we can add then a few styles and layout rules with CSS to make it look good. This means the DL isn't needed and would serve only as extraneous mark-up. On my contact form I use something like this: form fieldset legendMy Form/legend fieldset legendRequired Contact Info/legend labelName: input //label labelEmail: input //label /fieldset fieldset legendOptional Contact Info/legend labelPhone: input //label labelWeb Site: input //label /fieldset fieldset legendRequired Message/legend labelYour Comments: textarea //label /fieldset input value=Submit / /fieldset /form See a real (somewhat styled) example: http://green-beast.com/gbcf/ (Demo Form) Using this is satifies all of the needs of users and spec requirements. No definition list necessary or needed. That's my thinking on it anyway. I certainly wasn't trying to make a case for using a list, any list, for a form. Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Map of Australia Image Map
Felisimina wrote: We are trying to put together a map of Australia where the states appear on hover and are clickable. As I understand it, the hover state can't be used in area so I wonder if there is a way to display the States on hover without using javascript? Hello Felisimina, This might be a decent solution for you. http://mikecherim.com/experiments/css_map_pop.php Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Hello Mariusz, substituting dt with label or dd with input doesn't seem right to me at all... you can't just swap them I'm not really saying to swap them. I'm not pro-list or -table for form layout, I was just trying to pair the elements to show that form elements can serve in the same way (as they should). For example, instead of DT, use Label and leave the DT in the dictionary. The point of my comments, though, was what I have been saying all along. You simply don't need additional structure to put a form on a page. All you need are the form-related elements: Form, fieldset, legend, label, input (varied), and textarea. Using these elements and CSS you can lay out a form and, if this done properly, it's good to go, semantic, valid, accessible, and actually fairly controllable. There is actually a lot one can do without having to introduce something like a list or table structure. Try clever floats, et. al. But, as a disclaimer I should add that it's best probably to not do too much. If a form is styled it should probably be done minimally (if it ain't broken...). It is true that the legend element and how it relates to the fieldset can be a challenge (John Faulds has a good article about messing with legends [1]). It's also true not all browsers will support focus, and inputs like checkboxes, radio buttons, will display differently in different browsers, but there is a lot you can do without introducing anything else, especially in terms of positioning/layout. Roger Johansson has a good reference on form styling [2]. Your example is simple form with really one thematic group and you have 4 fieldsets there (?!). Yes. I felt the groupings I chose were appropriate. F1 - The Form F2 - Required F3 - Optional F4 - Required again. Submit The Requireds are separated by the Optional, but I wanted to maintain the order I chose: The Form Required Name and Email Optional Phone and URL Required Comments Submit [1] http://www.tyssendesign.com.au/articles/css/legends-of-style/ [2] http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200701/styling_form_controls_with_css_revisited/ Sorry if I was unclear in my previous posts. Hopefully my message is clearer this time 'round. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Steve Green wrote: No, a form is not a list of form controls [...] I agree. A form is not a list, nor is it tabular data. I know this was originally a demonstration to show the lesser of two evils, but evil is evil so less wrong still isn't right. What I don't understand is why there is this exploration of form layout structures to begin with when a form in of itself is it's own form layout structure. All the needed tools already exist. Why is a div needed, for instance, when the fieldset is already a container -- the proper container I might add -- for these form controls. Start with a proper form with all the right elements and you have something which looks good, is functional, and is perfectly accessible, and that's without styles. Then add CSS to the equation and it makes the need for additional structures and elements pretty unnecessary. Granted the differences between browsers can create challenges, some of which simply cannot be overcome, but those generally affect the styling of specific inputs like checkboxes as one example. But laying out a form is straightforward and I can't see a need for anything else. Definition lists are the new tables. I'm not aware of this, but I won't disagree. I'm just not aware of rampant abuse (but I do believe it and I'm not surprised). I just wrote a simple tutorial post [1] on my blog concerning lists and what they should be used for. For a definition list I could only really come up with three examples: 1) A glossary 2) FAQs 3) An interview transcript (when combined with blockquotes). (All have a sort of QA thing goin' on.) I suppose there are other semantic uses for this HTML structure of elements, but I was hardpressed to come up with any that weren't pushing the envelope too much. Just my two cents. Respectfully, Mike Cherim [1] http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=185 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantics and small
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: For less important, there currently isn't an alternative, so small (albeit presentational) may be the only option ... or just going for a span, which is semantically just as meaningless. FWIW, I use the small element on my blog, on my latest WordPress theme, and for Accessites [1] -- all use the same theme. On the home page the small element contains the tag line, and it contains the article/page title on inside pages. Like so: h1span/spanAccessites.org smallbr /The Art of Accessibility/small/h1How correct or semantically pure this method is I do not know. I am comfortable with it is all. The span is meaningless, but does happen to contain the [replacement] image over the still accessible text, the small break is a pause and conveniently breaks the line into two lines, then displays the secondary text that is in a way visually better -- without styles, that is, as it's not seen if styles are enabled. Moreover, I don't think it's in any way damaging doing it this way, and it's not bad for feeding search engines. This is the only time I will use h1 on any page. Next up is h2. I also use small to contain author credit line and other bits of less important content. Again, this is a practice I feel comfortable with. I'm not saying it is the right way. There are many methods as have been explored here. This one just happens to be mine. Cheers. Mike Cherim [1] http://accessites.org/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible, complex forms
Hello Greg,
If I understand what you're asking, I *think* you could do something like
this:
label for=amtBalance is within input type=text name=amt id=amt
value=$ / of my credit limit /label
Then you can style the label to look right by controlling font-size, etc,
and you could even style that input to look as it does in the email.
input#amt {
border : 0;
border-bottom : 1px solid #000;
}
I really don't understand what you're asking for regarding the select at the
end.
Hope this helps.
Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/
- Original Message -
From: Greg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 4:23 PM
Subject: [WSG] Accessible, complex forms
I have a dilemma that I hope someone can advise me on. A client wants a
fairly complex form that will have input fields in the middle of a line of
text (think adlibs), and then a select box at the end of the line. For
example:
[th] Alert ... [th] Status or delivery choice
[td] Balance is within $_ of my credit limit[td] select
box [email/sms/both]
I hope that example made sense. The problem we are facing is with screen
readers, and our approach so far has been to create invisible labels with
css.
Is there a more accessible way to make this type of form more accessible?
Thanks in advance,
Greg
http://www.wolkinsphotography.com
http://www.catscape.com
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Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
Michael Brockington wrote: I'm not 100% sure this is the case, but what a screen reader _should_ do is to _read_ an acronym and to _spell out_ an abreviation. Even if that is not yet the case, it seems likely in the future, assuming that we all use the correct elements in the first place... That is my thinking on the matter too. If it is meant to be spoken (RADAR), it is the acronym-type of abbreviation. It is known that an acronym is a special type of abbreviation and in my mind this is determined by how it is handled by the reader. This is my rule-of-thumb when I'm deciding which is more proper to use in a given instance. I like having this as my rule-of-thumb because it takes the individual instance brainwork out of it. In other words I can have a consistent practice to rely on. As abbreviations go, provided this thinking is correct, the acronym is somewhat uncommon. We wouldn't see it very often I suspect if IE supported abbr. If IE offered the proper support, I suspect there would be a far greater number of proper instances on the web since I feel most people use acronym for the styling and IE support. Of course I cannot effectively support this by looking it up on the web because the lines on this have been blurred significantly over time so the dictionaries are of little help. I *think* I originally read this rule in the book, The Elements of Style (which is sort of a universally-accepted writer's rule book). Respectfully, Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
Hello Criag, Just how extensive should our use of the acronym tag be? Not very, IMO. We have some food for thought for you at Accessites. http://accessites.org/site/2007/02/dealing-with-acronyms-abbreviations/ Cheers. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] what is semantic?
I would really appreciate if any tell me what is the term called semantic? Maybe this article by Mel Pedley will help shed some light on semantics for you, Navii. http://accessites.org/site/2007/04/semantics-why-bother/ Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
