Re: [WSG] Frames/iFrames [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
yes mark, we are a Government entity. Just so you know, I am talking about approving the use of iframes NOT frames in a limited capacity due to specific technical difficulties. The Government guidelines say that online content should be accessible. From what I understand of WCAG2.0, It is possible to make iFrames accessible. Thanks for your interest. Mark Harris w...@tracs.co.nz Sent by: To li...@webstandard wsg@webstandardsgroup.org sgroup.org cc Subject 14/01/2009 04:51 Re: [WSG] Frames/iFrames PM[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] Please respond to w...@webstandardsg roup.org mary-anne.nay...@medicareaustralia.gov.au wrote: They are using them to facilitate the menu/header/footer ite,s across a host of applications which sit on a range of differing servers using a rang of differing technologies. I suggested SSI's but that is not possible due to server configuration issues. I think I am going to allow iFrames but with some stipulations. I thought you were a government entity? What do the government guidelines say about frames ~mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** Save time-get your child's immunisation history statement online. NOTICE - This message is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action based upon it. If you received this message in error please notify Medicare Australia immediately. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Medicare Australia. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Frames/iFrames [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
On 14/1/09 05:31, mary-anne.nay...@medicareaustralia.gov.au wrote: They are using them to facilitate the menu/header/footer ite,s across a host of applications which sit on a range of differing servers using a rang of differing technologies. I suggested SSI's but that is not possible due to server configuration issues. I think I am going to allow iFrames but with some stipulations. My company uses IFRAME elements to share headers and footers with partner sites. The biggest problem with this approach is that you have to specify a HEIGHT attribute for the IFRAME. That forces you to make assumptions about the height of the IFRAME content, and those assumptions will inevitably break down under some conditions. (Try bumping up your text size three or four steps and see what happens!) -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Frames/iFrames [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Thanks Benjamin. They are using them to facilitate the menu/header/footer ite,s across a host of applications which sit on a range of differing servers using a rang of differing technologies. I suggested SSI's but that is not possible due to server configuration issues. I think I am going to allow iFrames but with some stipulations. Mary-Anne Mary-Anne Nayler Phone: 02 612 46681 Mgr, Design Technical team Mobile: 0402111359 Web Services Section Fax: 02 612 47969 Online Development Branch Email: Business Futures and eClaiming mary-anne.nay...@medicareaustralia.gov.au Division Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis bhawkesle...@goo To glemail.com wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent by: cc li...@webstandard sgroup.orgSubject Re: [WSG] Frames/iFrames [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] 13/01/2009 06:12 PM Please respond to w...@webstandardsg roup.org On 12/1/09 07:12, mary-anne.nay...@medicareaustralia.gov.au wrote: I am just wondering what is the general consensus on the use of Frames or iFrames these days. WCAG2.0 is not terribly clear on whether we should or shouldn't be using them. WCAG 2.0 tries to express the principles of web accessibility in a technology independent manner. If you can use frames in consistency with those principles, that's compatible with conforming to WCAG 2.0. Note that the Techniques document for WCAG 2.0 does include some HTML techniques relevant to frames: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H64.html http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H70.html I understand there are usability issues as well as problems with Search Engines. The usability minefield with frames described at - http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9612.html - hasn't disappeared. The interoperability problem hasn't disappeared either. There are still browsers in use - some mobile browsers, Lynx - that can't handle frames. More recently, security-conscious users are being advised to disable iframe support as one measure against clickjacking: http://hackademix.net/2008/09/27/clickjacking-and-noscript http://hackademix.net/2008/09/29/clickjacking-and-other-browsers-ie-safari-chrome-opera/ http://hackademix.net/2008/10/08/hello-clearclick-goodbye-clickjacking/ Likewise the problems with frames for search engines described at the article Nielsen cites: http://www.ehsco.com/opinion/19980209.html appear to still exist today: http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=35769 http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=34445 http://searchenginewatch.com/2167901 http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/search/webcrawler/slurp-08.html?terms=frames (although contrast http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/search/webcrawler/slurp-09.html?terms=frames ) I have a client that seems determined to use them despite my best advice. Use them how for what? -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** Help us support the Starlight Children's Foundation to grant wishes to seriously ill children this Christmas—make a donation at any Medicare office during December
Re: [WSG] Frames/iFrames [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
mary-anne.nay...@medicareaustralia.gov.au wrote: They are using them to facilitate the menu/header/footer ite,s across a host of applications which sit on a range of differing servers using a rang of differing technologies. I suggested SSI's but that is not possible due to server configuration issues. I think I am going to allow iFrames but with some stipulations. I thought you were a government entity? What do the government guidelines say about frames ~mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Frames/iFrames [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
On 12/01/2009, at 6:12 PM, mary-anne.nay...@medicareaustralia.gov.au wrote: I am just wondering what is the general consensus on the use of Frames or iFrames these days. When required, I use HTML 4.01 transitional and iFrames to take advantage of iFrame remoting. Combined with unobtrusive Javascript, I don't see this as a problem at all. There's no hard-and-fast rule, though. Frames and/or iFrames in some situations might be wildly inappropriate. Cheers, -- Nathan de Vries *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Frames/iFrames [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
On 12/1/09 07:12, mary-anne.nay...@medicareaustralia.gov.au wrote: I am just wondering what is the general consensus on the use of Frames or iFrames these days. WCAG2.0 is not terribly clear on whether we should or shouldn't be using them. WCAG 2.0 tries to express the principles of web accessibility in a technology independent manner. If you can use frames in consistency with those principles, that's compatible with conforming to WCAG 2.0. Note that the Techniques document for WCAG 2.0 does include some HTML techniques relevant to frames: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H64.html http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H70.html I understand there are usability issues as well as problems with Search Engines. The usability minefield with frames described at - http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9612.html - hasn't disappeared. The interoperability problem hasn't disappeared either. There are still browsers in use - some mobile browsers, Lynx - that can't handle frames. More recently, security-conscious users are being advised to disable iframe support as one measure against clickjacking: http://hackademix.net/2008/09/27/clickjacking-and-noscript http://hackademix.net/2008/09/29/clickjacking-and-other-browsers-ie-safari-chrome-opera/ http://hackademix.net/2008/10/08/hello-clearclick-goodbye-clickjacking/ Likewise the problems with frames for search engines described at the article Nielsen cites: http://www.ehsco.com/opinion/19980209.html appear to still exist today: http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=35769 http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=34445 http://searchenginewatch.com/2167901 http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/search/webcrawler/slurp-08.html?terms=frames (although contrast http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/search/webcrawler/slurp-09.html?terms=frames ) I have a client that seems determined to use them despite my best advice. Use them how for what? -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Frames/iFrames [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Hi, I am just wondering what is the general consensus on the use of Frames or iFrames these days. WCAG2.0 is not terribly clear on whether we should or shouldn't be using them. I understand there are usability issues as well as problems with Search Engines. I have a client that seems determined to use them despite my best advice. Thanks, Mary-Anne Help us support the Starlight Children's Foundation to grant wishes to seriously ill children this Christmas—make a donation at any Medicare office during December. NOTICE - This message is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action based upon it. If you received this message in error please notify Medicare Australia immediately. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Medicare Australia. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Frames and title relevance to screen readers....
Hi, The link I gave discusses screereaders and seems to suggest that screenreaders use the title attribute of the frames rather than the title tag within the head section of the frame contents. Since the article specifically relates to screenreaders and their accessibility problems with frames and as it makes no mention of title tags of frame contents, it would seem not to be currently an issue. However, a future user agent/screenreader may wish to use the title tag (or you may wish to use no frames section to access frame content pages separately) so why not include the title tag anyway - it shouldn't make too much effort and may help in the design process semantics. On Wed, April 2, 2008 11:30 pm, Anat Katz wrote: thanks for that Stuart. We have already implemented frame titles, we were actually referring to the page titles (found within the HEAD) of the html that makes up the page within the frame. If these were left blank would it cause a problem??? Frame: frame src=page.html name=BodyContent id=BodyContent title=Main Content longdesc=frameset-desc.html#BodyContent noresize=noresize / page.html: HEAD TITLE???/TITLE /HEAD Cheers, Anat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: Wednesday, 2 April 2008 8:43 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Frames and title relevance to screen readers Hi, You might find the following link useful: See http://www.webaim.org/techniques/frames/ Stuart On Wed, April 2, 2008 1:13 am, Anat Katz wrote: Hi team, Just a general question - is there any value from a screen reader point of view, to have a specific title to the actual pages that were build /called by the frameset. Is there any value for screen reader's users? I.e.: the page that contains the main content, should have a specific /relevant page title? Do screen readers read the page title of each one of the pages of the frameset? Or do they only read the one frameset page title? Example: Recipes page title as opposed to main content page title. (please note I am not referring to the titles of the frames in the frameset, see example below) frame src=page.html name=BodyContent id=BodyContent title=Main Content longdesc=frameset-desc.html#BodyContent noresize=noresize / Cheers, Anat This email and any attachments may contain privileged and confidential information and are intended for the named addressee only. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete this e-mail immediately. Any confidentiality, privilege or copyright is not waived or lost because this e-mail has been sent to you in error. It is your responsibility to check this e-mail and any attachments for viruses. No warranty is made that this material is free from computer virus or any other defect or error. Any loss/damage incurred by using this material is not the sender's responsibility. The sender's entire liability will be limited to resupplying the material. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** This email and any attachments may contain privileged and confidential information and are intended for the named addressee only. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete this e-mail immediately. Any confidentiality, privilege or copyright is not waived or lost because this e-mail has been sent to you in error. It is your responsibility to check this e-mail and any attachments for viruses. No warranty is made that this material is free from computer virus or any other defect or error. Any loss/damage incurred by using this material is not the sender's responsibility. The sender's entire liability will be limited to resupplying the material. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Frames and title relevance to screen readers....
we are thinking to leave the title (in the head) of the page blank... since we have a good h1 for the page... my question is do screen readers read the title of the pages that within the frameset? Cheers, Anat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: Thursday, 3 April 2008 6:02 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Frames and title relevance to screen readers Hi, The link I gave discusses screereaders and seems to suggest that screenreaders use the title attribute of the frames rather than the title tag within the head section of the frame contents. Since the article specifically relates to screenreaders and their accessibility problems with frames and as it makes no mention of title tags of frame contents, it would seem not to be currently an issue. However, a future user agent/screenreader may wish to use the title tag (or you may wish to use no frames section to access frame content pages separately) so why not include the title tag anyway - it shouldn't make too much effort and may help in the design process semantics. On Wed, April 2, 2008 11:30 pm, Anat Katz wrote: thanks for that Stuart. We have already implemented frame titles, we were actually referring to the page titles (found within the HEAD) of the html that makes up the page within the frame. If these were left blank would it cause a problem??? Frame: frame src=page.html name=BodyContent id=BodyContent title=Main Content longdesc=frameset-desc.html#BodyContent noresize=noresize / page.html: HEAD TITLE???/TITLE /HEAD Cheers, Anat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: Wednesday, 2 April 2008 8:43 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Frames and title relevance to screen readers Hi, You might find the following link useful: See http://www.webaim.org/techniques/frames/ Stuart On Wed, April 2, 2008 1:13 am, Anat Katz wrote: Hi team, Just a general question - is there any value from a screen reader point of view, to have a specific title to the actual pages that were build /called by the frameset. Is there any value for screen reader's users? I.e.: the page that contains the main content, should have a specific /relevant page title? Do screen readers read the page title of each one of the pages of the frameset? Or do they only read the one frameset page title? Example: Recipes page title as opposed to main content page title. (please note I am not referring to the titles of the frames in the frameset, see example below) frame src=page.html name=BodyContent id=BodyContent title=Main Content longdesc=frameset-desc.html#BodyContent noresize=noresize / Cheers, Anat This email and any attachments may contain privileged and confidential information and are intended for the named addressee only. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete this e-mail immediately. Any confidentiality, privilege or copyright is not waived or lost because this e-mail has been sent to you in error. It is your responsibility to check this e-mail and any attachments for viruses. No warranty is made that this material is free from computer virus or any other defect or error. Any loss/damage incurred by using this material is not the sender's responsibility. The sender's entire liability will be limited to resupplying the material. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** This email and any attachments may contain privileged and confidential information and are intended for the named addressee only. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete this e-mail immediately. Any confidentiality, privilege or copyright is not waived or lost because this e-mail has been sent to you in error. It is your responsibility to check this e-mail and any attachments for viruses. No warranty is made that this material is free from computer virus or any other defect or error. Any loss/damage incurred by using this material is not the sender's responsibility. The sender's entire liability will be limited to resupplying the material. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http
Re: [WSG] Frames and title relevance to screen readers....
Hi, You might find the following link useful: See http://www.webaim.org/techniques/frames/ Stuart On Wed, April 2, 2008 1:13 am, Anat Katz wrote: Hi team, Just a general question - is there any value from a screen reader point of view, to have a specific title to the actual pages that were build /called by the frameset. Is there any value for screen reader's users? I.e.: the page that contains the main content, should have a specific /relevant page title? Do screen readers read the page title of each one of the pages of the frameset? Or do they only read the one frameset page title? Example: Recipes page title as opposed to main content page title. (please note I am not referring to the titles of the frames in the frameset, see example below) frame src=page.html name=BodyContent id=BodyContent title=Main Content longdesc=frameset-desc.html#BodyContent noresize=noresize / Cheers, Anat This email and any attachments may contain privileged and confidential information and are intended for the named addressee only. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete this e-mail immediately. Any confidentiality, privilege or copyright is not waived or lost because this e-mail has been sent to you in error. It is your responsibility to check this e-mail and any attachments for viruses. No warranty is made that this material is free from computer virus or any other defect or error. Any loss/damage incurred by using this material is not the sender's responsibility. The sender's entire liability will be limited to resupplying the material. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Frames and title relevance to screen readers....
thanks for that Stuart. We have already implemented frame titles, we were actually referring to the page titles (found within the HEAD) of the html that makes up the page within the frame. If these were left blank would it cause a problem??? Frame: frame src=page.html name=BodyContent id=BodyContent title=Main Content longdesc=frameset-desc.html#BodyContent noresize=noresize / page.html: HEAD TITLE???/TITLE /HEAD Cheers, Anat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: Wednesday, 2 April 2008 8:43 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Frames and title relevance to screen readers Hi, You might find the following link useful: See http://www.webaim.org/techniques/frames/ Stuart On Wed, April 2, 2008 1:13 am, Anat Katz wrote: Hi team, Just a general question - is there any value from a screen reader point of view, to have a specific title to the actual pages that were build /called by the frameset. Is there any value for screen reader's users? I.e.: the page that contains the main content, should have a specific /relevant page title? Do screen readers read the page title of each one of the pages of the frameset? Or do they only read the one frameset page title? Example: Recipes page title as opposed to main content page title. (please note I am not referring to the titles of the frames in the frameset, see example below) frame src=page.html name=BodyContent id=BodyContent title=Main Content longdesc=frameset-desc.html#BodyContent noresize=noresize / Cheers, Anat This email and any attachments may contain privileged and confidential information and are intended for the named addressee only. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete this e-mail immediately. Any confidentiality, privilege or copyright is not waived or lost because this e-mail has been sent to you in error. It is your responsibility to check this e-mail and any attachments for viruses. No warranty is made that this material is free from computer virus or any other defect or error. Any loss/damage incurred by using this material is not the sender's responsibility. The sender's entire liability will be limited to resupplying the material. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** This email and any attachments may contain privileged and confidential information and are intended for the named addressee only. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete this e-mail immediately. Any confidentiality, privilege or copyright is not waived or lost because this e-mail has been sent to you in error. It is your responsibility to check this e-mail and any attachments for viruses. No warranty is made that this material is free from computer virus or any other defect or error. Any loss/damage incurred by using this material is not the sender's responsibility. The sender's entire liability will be limited to resupplying the material. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Frames and title relevance to screen readers....
On 4/2/08, Anat Katz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ??? this is what your visitor would see in the title bar of the browser or nothing if you left it blank. using keywords in your title helps with seo. dwain -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Frames and title relevance to screen readers....
I will admit to being surprised that people aren't screaming don't use frames. I guess that will by my first question, why are you using frames. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Anat Katz wrote: thanks for that Stuart. We have already implemented frame titles, we were actually referring to the page titles (found within the HEAD) of the html that makes up the page within the frame. If these were left blank would it cause a problem??? Frame: frame src=page.html name=BodyContent id=BodyContent title=Main Content longdesc=frameset-desc.html#BodyContent noresize=noresize / page.html: HEAD TITLE???/TITLE /HEAD Cheers, Anat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: Wednesday, 2 April 2008 8:43 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Frames and title relevance to screen readers Hi, You might find the following link useful: See http://www.webaim.org/techniques/frames/ Stuart On Wed, April 2, 2008 1:13 am, Anat Katz wrote: Hi team, Just a general question - is there any value from a screen reader point of view, to have a specific title to the actual pages that were build /called by the frameset. Is there any value for screen reader's users? I.e.: the page that contains the main content, should have a specific /relevant page title? Do screen readers read the page title of each one of the pages of the frameset? Or do they only read the one frameset page title? Example: Recipes page title as opposed to main content page title. (please note I am not referring to the titles of the frames in the frameset, see example below) frame src=page.html name=BodyContent id=BodyContent title=Main Content longdesc=frameset-desc.html#BodyContent noresize=noresize / Cheers, Anat This email and any attachments may contain privileged and confidential information and are intended for the named addressee only. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete this e-mail immediately. Any confidentiality, privilege or copyright is not waived or lost because this e-mail has been sent to you in error. It is your responsibility to check this e-mail and any attachments for viruses. No warranty is made that this material is free from computer virus or any other defect or error. Any loss/damage incurred by using this material is not the sender's responsibility. The sender's entire liability will be limited to resupplying the material. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** This email and any attachments may contain privileged and confidential information and are intended for the named addressee only. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete this e-mail immediately. Any confidentiality, privilege or copyright is not waived or lost because this e-mail has been sent to you in error. It is your responsibility to check this e-mail and any attachments for viruses. No warranty is made that this material is free from computer virus or any other defect or error. Any loss/damage incurred by using this material is not the sender's responsibility. The sender's entire liability will be limited to resupplying the material. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Frames and title relevance to screen readers....
Hi team, Just a general question - is there any value from a screen reader point of view, to have a specific title to the actual pages that were build /called by the frameset. Is there any value for screen reader's users? I.e.: the page that contains the main content, should have a specific /relevant page title? Do screen readers read the page title of each one of the pages of the frameset? Or do they only read the one frameset page title? Example: Recipes page title as opposed to main content page title. (please note I am not referring to the titles of the frames in the frameset, see example below) frame src=page.html name=BodyContent id=BodyContent title=Main Content longdesc=frameset-desc.html#BodyContent noresize=noresize / Cheers, Anat This email and any attachments may contain privileged and confidential information and are intended for the named addressee only. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete this e-mail immediately. Any confidentiality, privilege or copyright is not waived or lost because this e-mail has been sent to you in error. It is your responsibility to check this e-mail and any attachments for viruses. No warranty is made that this material is free from computer virus or any other defect or error. Any loss/damage incurred by using this material is not the sender's responsibility. The sender's entire liability will be limited to resupplying the material. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Frames ?
Good evening gentleman. I want to thank all of you for your interesting replies to my question. I will gather all of the info and try to come up with an educated reply ! At any rate, there is a lot to think about. My client may not be dead set on using frames. I will use the info garnered in this thread to TRY to convince him otherwise. However, I still have a few questions...Isn't using a dynamic frameset, still using frames?What is the advantage, other than being able to place the frame where I want?I am thinking I will suggest that we just open the manufacturer's site in a new window and have that pop-up in a specific location that will allow the logo on the originating page to show on the top left of the screen. I know the user may not have their browser open to full screen and this involves pop-ups, which the user may turn off, but I feel more comfortable with that as opposed to frames. Comments? For what it is worth, I agree with the comments here.My design philosophy is really one in which I want to do the best job for my clients. To do this I feel I must adhere to Web Standards and style sheets. If I cannot dissuade the client from using frames, I really don't feel good about proceeding with this project (it's not a very lucrative one). Appreciate your help very much.Regards,KROn 12/17/05, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Terrence Wood wrote: On 17 Dec 2005, at 6:46 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: Terrence Wood wrote: Have I missed something or is this just, erm, frames using _javascript_ instead of a static page? I'm not sure I understand your question. Isn't what the OP is looking for? Being able to link to *and* frame other web sites? The OP asked if there is a web standards and CSS way to maintain his clients branding for remote sites, and while recognising that frames will achieve this wondered if there is an alternative. The thread has moved on to suggest alternatives to frames in their entirety given the usability issues of frames, and the ethical issues around framing content which owned by a third party. The alternatives revolve around some variation of linking to the site. You solution is (from my cursory look) a script driven frames implementation, as opposed to a static file based one, and I questioned it because it didn't seem to add anything at this point andusually your contributions are both excellent and timely.IMHO, the fact that this thread has moved on to suggest alternatives may teach the OP something, but does not necessary answer his question. If hisclient is dead on the idea, the OP will have no choice other thanimlplementing a frames solution.op..., [my client] wants the new web page to open up only in the contents area and leave his header and menu intact.Now, I am not a proponent of frames, but this sounds like frames to me.Isthere a way to do this using Web Standards and CSS (my preference) ?/opI read the above, then skimmed the thread and didn't see one post mentionning the use of a dynamic frameset to avoid building a site withframes. I thought my suggestion was a variation of linking to the site, analternative that has not been discussed. I'm sorry if this contribution was neither excellent nor timely ;)Best regards,Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com** The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
Re: [WSG] Frames ?
Kevin Ross said: Isn't using a dynamic frameset, still using frames? Yes. What is the advantage? None that I'm aware of. I will suggest that we just open a new window... I feel more comfortable with that as opposed to frames. Comments? Pop-up's are the lesser of the two evils, and if you must, you must. At least it has the advantage of SEO goodness through having online site blurbage. My design philosophy is... do the best job for my clients. Nice philosophy. I, for one, would be interested in hearing how you get on with this. Feel free to contact me off-list if you wish. Best of Luck. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Frames ?
As one last comment I'd add that pop-ups and new window targets are very different beasts. An accessible popup is almost but not quite impossible, although always less desirable than a simple target="_blank". --Paul A NooneWebmaster, ASHM[EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin RossSent: Monday, 19 December 2005 12:27 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Frames ? Good evening gentleman. I want to thank all of you for your interesting replies to my question. I will gather all of the info and try to come up with an educated reply ! At any rate, there is a lot to think about. My client may not be "dead set" on using frames. I will use the info garnered in this thread to TRY to convince him otherwise. However, I still have a few questions...Isn't using a dynamic frameset, still using frames?What is the advantage, other than being able to place the frame where I want?I am thinking I will suggest that we just open the manufacturer's site in a new window and have that pop-up in a specific location that will allow the logo on the originating page to show on the top left of the screen. I know the user may not have their browser open to full screen and this involves pop-ups, which the user may turn off, but I feel more comfortable with that as opposed to frames. Comments? For what it is worth, I agree with the comments here.My design philosophy is really one in which I want to do the best job for my clients. To do this I feel I must adhere to Web Standards and style sheets. If I cannot dissuade the client from using frames, I really don't feel good about proceeding with this project (it's not a very lucrative one). Appreciate your help very much.Regards,KR On 12/17/05, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Terrence Wood wrote: On 17 Dec 2005, at 6:46 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: Terrence Wood wrote: Have I missed something or is this just, erm, frames using _javascript_ instead of a static page? I'm not sure I understand your question. Isn't what the OP is looking for? Being able to link to *and* frame other web sites? The OP asked if there is a web standards and CSS way to maintain his clients branding for remote sites, and while recognising that frames will achieve this wondered if there is an alternative. The thread has moved on to suggest alternatives to frames in their entirety given the usability issues of frames, and the ethical issues around framing content which owned by a third party. The alternatives revolve around some variation of linking to the site. You solution is (from my cursory look) a script driven frames implementation, as opposed to a static file based one, and I questioned it because it didn't seem to add anything at this point andusually your contributions are both excellent and timely.IMHO, the fact that this thread has moved on to suggest alternatives may teach the OP something, but does not necessary answer his question. If hisclient is dead on the idea, the OP will have no choice other thanimlplementing a frames solution.op..., [my client] wants the new web page to open up only in the contents area and leave his header and menu intact.Now, I am not a proponent of frames, but this sounds like frames to me.Isthere a way to do this using Web Standards and CSS (my preference) ?/opI read the above, then skimmed the thread and didn't see one post mentionning the use of a dynamic frameset to avoid building a site withframes. I thought my suggestion was a "variation of linking to the site", an"alternative" that has not been discussed. I'm sorry if this contribution was neither excellent nor timely ;)Best regards,Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com** The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
Re: [WSG] Frames ?
Kevin Ross wrote: However, I still have a few questions... Isn't using a dynamic frameset, still using frames? Yes. What is the advantage, other than being able to place the frame where I want? What I understood from your questions is that you were going to build the entire site using frames and have these external links open in the main frame. This is why I suggested using a dynamic frameset, because with this technique you can create the site using only flat pages and call the frameset *on the fly*, for these external links only. I am thinking I will suggest that we just open the manufacturer's site in a new window and have that pop-up in a specific location that will allow the logo on the originating page to show on the top left of the screen. I know the user may not have their browser open to full screen and this involves pop-ups, which the user may turn off, but I feel more comfortable with that as opposed to frames. Comments? IMO, positioning the browser window is a bad idea. Not only because there is no way to know where it's gonna show up in relation to the opener, but also because you should not play with the user's window. My design philosophy is really one in which I want to do the best job for my clients. To do this I feel I must adhere to Web Standards and style sheets. If I cannot dissuade the client from using frames, I really don't feel good about proceeding with this project (it's not a very lucrative one). Think of it that way: if you cannot dissuade your client of using frames and are ready to move away from the project, there is a good chance that your client will find another designer who will create his *entire site with frames*. At least now *you* know that using a dynamic frameset would be a better option ;-) Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Frames ?
On 17 Dec 2005, at 6:46 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: Terrence Wood wrote: Have I missed something or is this just, erm, frames using javascript instead of a static page? I'm not sure I understand your question. Isn't what the OP is looking for? Being able to link to *and* frame other web sites? The OP asked if there is a web standards and CSS way to maintain his clients branding for remote sites, and while recognising that frames will achieve this wondered if there is an alternative. Frames do form part of HTML so, provided they validate, then that is standards design. There is no way to brand a remote site without frames or without having the branding served by the remote site e.g. via the refer header, or some such mechanism. The thread has moved on to suggest alternatives to frames in their entirety given the usability issues of frames, and the ethical issues around framing content which owned by a third party. The alternatives revolve around some variation of linking to the site. You solution is (from my cursory look) a script driven frames implementation, as opposed to a static file based one, and I questioned it because it didn't seem to add anything at this point and usually your contributions are both excellent and timely. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Frames ?
Peter Levan said: I believe you can make use of the position: fixed css property to get some frame-like behaviour, eg applying it to a navigation div. However I don't know what the browser support is like. Not supported in IE/PC... and this doesn't solve the problem of having the branding appear with content residing on someone elses web site. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Frames ?
i know they would probably say no, but it is not worth finding out, if the sites you are linking to, can add a little image on their site if they get a referral from you ? this would allow the 'branding' to stay with you. and maybe these sites would be more likely to do so if they got alot of referals from you.. jsut athought, and im sure the answer would be no, but you never know ?! - or maybe you do.. From: Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Frames ? Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:31:02 +1300 (NZDT) Peter Levan said: I believe you can make use of the position: fixed css property to get some frame-like behaviour, eg applying it to a navigation div. However I don't know what the browser support is like. Not supported in IE/PC... and this doesn't solve the problem of having the branding appear with content residing on someone elses web site. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Frames ?
Kevin Ross wrote: Hi. I am new to the group and have a question. I have a client who wants to set up his business site in such a way that his logo and business presence is always maintained when the client visits a link to one of the manufacturers that my client represents. I think you can achieve what your client wants without building his site using frames. Create a dynamic frameset [1] and use it for all links to manufacturers. As others already said, you should tell your client this is not a very good idea and that it is totally useless if the nested page contains a frames buster. [1] http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/frames/5.asp HTH, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Frames ?
Thierry Koblentz said: think you can achieve what your client wants without building his site using frames. Create a dynamic frameset [1] [1] http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/frames/5.asp Have I missed something or is this just, erm, frames using javascript instead of a static page? kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Frames ?
Terrence Wood wrote: Thierry Koblentz said: think you can achieve what your client wants without building his site using frames. Create a dynamic frameset [1] [1] http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/frames/5.asp Have I missed something or is this just, erm, frames using javascript instead of a static page? I'm not sure I understand your question. Isn't what the OP is looking for? Being able to link to *and* frame other web sites? Best regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Frames ?
Hi. I am new to the group and have a question.I have a client who wants to set up his business site in such a way that his logo and business presence is always maintained when the client visits a link to one of the manufacturers that my client represents. In other words, the site will have a header, a menu on the left and content under the header and to the right of the menu area. When a customer clicks on a link (to a manufacturer site which my client represents) within the content area, he wants the new web page to open up only in the contents area and leave his header and menu intact. Now, I am not a proponent of frames, but this sounds like frames to me. Is there a way to do this using Web Standards and CSS (my preference) ?If so, are there any examples of this out there ?Thanks so much for any help you can give. Regards,KR
Re: [WSG] Frames ?
Kevin Ross said: his logo and business presence is always maintained when the client visits a link to one of the manufacturers. Ugh. This is a bit pre-dot bomb isn't it? I'd wager that this type of site will only serve to diminish his online presence, not enhance it. Is there a benefit for to the actual client? Is this idea OK with the manufacturers represented (bandwidth, content copyright, existing or alternate preferred supplier agreements)? Wouldn't some acutal blurbage on his own site together with a link to the manufacturers be better (improved SEO, improved user experience, more control over content and ownership of his own brand)? Now, I am not a proponent of frames, but this sounds like frames to me. Correct. Is there a way to do this using Web Standards and CSS (my preference) ? Frames, including iframe form part of HTML 4, and if your site validates then that is standards design. The only other way I know of to have the 'business presence' appear as part of the manufacturers site is to talk with them and insert some server side code at their end based on a the referer header. If so, are there any examples of this out there ? Hijacking other sites in a frameset? Sure there are plenty of pron sites that do this (so I've been told). Or try wayback machine =) Thanks so much for any help you can give. OK. I apologise for my somewhat cynical and jaded answer in the middle here, but the first two paragraphs are worth expanding on. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Frames ?
Ugh, is right! Go with the advice from Terrence. Duplicated navigation, the risk that the manufacturers sites will use framesetssounds like a users worst nightmare. An example might be a great way of convincing your client not to go down this path! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Ross Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 5:05 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Frames ? Hi. I am new to the group and have a question. I have a client who wants to set up his business site in such a way that his logo and business presence is always maintained when the client visits a link to one of the manufacturers that my client represents. In other words, the site will have a header, a menu on the left and content under the header and to the right of the menu area. When a customer clicks on a link (to a manufacturer site which my client represents) within the content area, he wants the new web page to open up only in the contents area and leave his header and menu intact. Now, I am not a proponent of frames, but this sounds like frames to me. Is there a way to do this using Web Standards and CSS (my preference) ? If so, are there any examples of this out there ? Thanks so much for any help you can give. Regards, KR
Re: [WSG] Frames ?
On 12/15/05, Kevin Ross [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now, I am not a proponent of frames, but this sounds like frames to me. Is there a way to do this using Web Standards and CSS (my preference) ? If so, are there any examples of this out there ? If you want an example of frames being used, just use google/yahoo/etc. image search. Every image you click opens a new window with a google/yahoo/etc. top frame and the site in the bottom frame. Of course, people hate this. One alternative might be to make a page on the client's website for each manufacturer, and on that page have a link to the manufacturer's site. This way the stifling business presence of your client is still asserted. Or, your client could actually convince his manufacturers to put a header on their sites... if he really has that kind of power. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Frames ?
Kevin, Why don't you ask your client this: How would you feel if your site appeared within another sites design with their logo and slogan above your own? I would try to convince him that you can achieve better results with a small page with information about why the linked site is relevant, a small screen shot of what the site looks like and a link to open a new browser window. With the exception of the link in a new window this can all be done with standards in mind and the link is a lot less evil than some frames. Stress that after they close the newly opened window his site will be sitting there behind ;-) HTH Lloyd On 12/16/05, Kevin Ross [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi. I am new to the group and have a question. I have a client who wants to set up his business site in such a way that his logo and business presence is always maintained when the client visits a link to one of the manufacturers that my client represents. In other words, the site will have a header, a menu on the left and content under the header and to the right of the menu area. When a customer clicks on a link (to a manufacturer site which my client represents) within the content area, he wants the new web page to open up only in the contents area and leave his header and menu intact. Now, I am not a proponent of frames, but this sounds like frames to me. Is there a way to do this using Web Standards and CSS (my preference) ? If so, are there any examples of this out there ? Thanks so much for any help you can give. Regards, KR ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Frames ?
I believe you can make use of the position: fixed css property to get some frame-like behaviour, eg applying it to a navigation div. However I don't know what the browser support is like. _ Peter Levan Web Manager, Australian Institute of Criminology GPO Box 2944 Canberra ACT 2601 Tel: (02) 6260 9257 Fax: (02) 6260 9299 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: http://www.aic.gov.au/ From: Kevin Ross [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 5:05 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Frames ? Hi. I am new to the group and have a question.I have a client who wants to set up his business site in such a way that his logo and "business presence" is always maintained when the client visits a link to one of the manufacturers that my client represents. In other words, the site will have a header, a menu on the left and content under the header and to the right of the menu area. When a customer clicks on a link (to a manufacturer site which my client represents) within the content area, he wants the new web page to open up only in the contents area and leave his header and menu intact. Now, I am not a proponent of frames, but this sounds like frames to me. Is there a way to do this using Web Standards and CSS (my preference) ?If so, are there any examples of this out there ?Thanks so much for any help you can give. Regards,KR
Re: [WSG] Frames ?
G'day Peter Levan wrote: I believe you can make use of the position: fixed css property to get some frame-like behaviour Which is fine if you have control over the whole page, but not if you're trying to display someone else's site within your own (not recommended), as asked in the original post. Just another point to consider (apart from the other valid points raised about this practice), if my browser window is 750 pixels wide and you're using a 200px frame on the left, you don't leave much room for the other site to display in. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Frames ?
I have a client who wants to set up his business site in such a way that his logo and business presence is always maintained when the client visits a link to one of the manufacturers that my client represents. ... Now, I am not a proponent of frames, but this sounds like frames to me. Is there a way to do this using Web Standards and CSS (my preference) ? No doubt the list will erupt into complete hysterics about the word frames; but the technology isn't the issue (you could do it with object and script tricks, for example; but IE in particular would fight you every step of the way). Pulling someone else's site into your frameset is extremely hazardous territory. They could face lawsuits, regardless of whether they represent the other company or not. These other sites are not owned by your client and they should not act like they are. Besides that, users hate trapped sites. Much better to clearly mark the intention to launch new windows; or (even better) give the user a choice. From memory, I think about.com may use this sort of approach; as do image searches like Google. Search engines can probably get away with it a little since it's pretty clear that they don't own the site; about.com really pushes that line since they load tutorials and so forth. If they do insist on doing this; a) get something in writing from the client that they are doing this against your advice - I'm serious. At minimum keep a copy of something you've sent to the client in writing, advising them not to do it. b) you're probably going to need to use frames. hope that helps, h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] frames
Hi All, Can anyone tell me if/when it is 'OK' to use frames? Since the W3C spec still includes them, I wondered (if) when it was considered legit to employ them - on a par with tables, which are avoided at all costs, except when displaying 'tabular data'. So I assume the W3C have included frames in the spec for some good reason? An example URL (or two) would be great. Please don't turn this into a rant (or worse) - it's a serious question. Thank you. Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] frames
hi, Can anyone tell me if/when it is 'OK' to use frames? Since the W3C spec still includes them, I wondered (if) when it was considered legit to employ them - on a par with tables, which are avoided at all costs, except when displaying 'tabular data'. So I assume the W3C have included frames in the spec for some good reason? An example URL (or two) would be great. Please don't turn this into a rant (or worse) - it's a serious question. Frames are not inherently evil, it's more that people tend to use them very badly. It's sort of fashionable to abhor frames, too ;) I've heard it all, since I am currently stuck with them at work. You'll find that a lot of major portal applications and content management systems tend to produce framesets (or use them for their admin interface), so it's not like they're about to vanish. On top of that, a frameset which validates will not look right. eg If you want invisible frame borders you're basically stuck with invalid documents (if anyone can show a technique to the contrary I'd be very happy :)). The key problem is that you have to leave off the DOCTYPE, however you can mark everything up so that it *works* even though it doesn't validate. The key things to do are 1) keep the frameset as simple as possible, 2) ensure you title each frame appropriately [http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#frame-names], 3) avoid nesting framesets, and 4) make sure the noframes includes links to all framed documents. if nothing else, search engine bots generally don't read framesets, they read the noframes. No doubt I'll need to retreat to a fireproof bunker now ;) cheers, h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] frames
Sometimes frames make good sense to use. I created a web page checker / validator using an XHTML frameset for the results: http://www.websemantics.co.uk/pilotworkshop/page_checker/ I believe the use is both semantic and accessible. It was created as an example of framesets rather than as a tool. Mike 2k:)2 Mike Foskett Web Standards, Accessibility Testing Consultant Multimedia Publishing and Production British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 02476 416994 Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday] Fax: 02476 411410 www.becta.org.uk -Original Message- From: heretic [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 12 May 2005 12:12 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] frames hi, Can anyone tell me if/when it is 'OK' to use frames? Since the W3C spec still includes them, I wondered (if) when it was considered legit to employ them - on a par with tables, which are avoided at all costs, except when displaying 'tabular data'. So I assume the W3C have included frames in the spec for some good reason? An example URL (or two) would be great. Please don't turn this into a rant (or worse) - it's a serious question. Frames are not inherently evil, it's more that people tend to use them very badly. It's sort of fashionable to abhor frames, too ;) I've heard it all, since I am currently stuck with them at work. You'll find that a lot of major portal applications and content management systems tend to produce framesets (or use them for their admin interface), so it's not like they're about to vanish. On top of that, a frameset which validates will not look right. eg If you want invisible frame borders you're basically stuck with invalid documents (if anyone can show a technique to the contrary I'd be very happy :)). The key problem is that you have to leave off the DOCTYPE, however you can mark everything up so that it *works* even though it doesn't validate. The key things to do are 1) keep the frameset as simple as possible, 2) ensure you title each frame appropriately [http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#frame-names], 3) avoid nesting framesets, and 4) make sure the noframes includes links to all framed documents. if nothing else, search engine bots generally don't read framesets, they read the noframes. No doubt I'll need to retreat to a fireproof bunker now ;) cheers, h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] frames
I can´t see other way to create a chat page without frames. This is the only (IMHO) thing I use frames. Of course, there are many ways to use it, as evil ways, but in a chat you got to have two frames, at least: one where you put the form, and another where you read the messages. This one you have to put a meta tag with auto refresh, or a javascript with a timeout function to update the page and let your user know what is going on. And the other the form where your user will send the message. I use AChat (http://atutor.ca/achat/index.php) to chat with my partner during the day. I think it's a nice implementation of frames. The version I use isn't standards compliant (this may have changed), but it handles focus very well and is produced by people who know their accessibility backwards (the Adaptive Technology Resource Centre at the University of Toronto). Damian I have tried many ways to do it without frames, but, in this case, frames fit perfectly. Cheers, Francisco. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
