On Wed, 2 Jul 2003, I. Oppenheim wrote:
Application dependent meta information such as page
width, font colour, midi track no could also be
standardized, but in a meta standard that is separate
and does not interfere with the abstract ABC standard.
The ABC standard itself should only deal
On Wed, 2 Jul 2003, I. Oppenheim wrote:
The ABC standard itself should make it possible to
specify the code page in which the text inside the ABC
tune is coded. It is probably safe to assume iso8859-1
(Latin-1) as default, if nothing is specified by the
user. This way the user could also
On Wed, 2 Jul 2003, I. Oppenheim wrote:
m: ~n3 = n{o}n{m}n
Phil, thank you for sharing this, this is a wonderful
idea! I strongly suggest to include this mechanism in
the upcomming standard. Guido, what do you think?
My personl view is that extensions are always welcome if the make life
There's been a lot of traffic on this topic already. Two things I'd
like to emphasize:
1) I agree that the standards committee should have a chairman, but I
think the committee needs to elect him/her.
2) We seem to be in danger of falling into the trap of everything that
any known
On Wed, 2 Jul 2003, Jon Freeman wrote:
I'd guess you are on Linux and don't know what could work with that but,
with help from Phil Taylor, I did manage to get Barfly running on a Win PC
using an emulator caled Executor. I liked it a lot - IMO, it's the best of
the dedicated abc programs
On Wed, 2 Jul 2003, Donald White wrote:
I am using runabc.tcl (or runabc.exe) on both my PC and on Linux as a
front end to abcm2ps and gsview, and it is extremely easy to use. To a
novice user, once it is setup, you hit display and it generates a pdf
file directly and launches gsview32.exe
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Guido Gonzato wrote:
In the draft, I didn't mention codepages, iso and
some such. I'm sure 95% of ABC users would not
understand what it's all about.
Probably; but the software packages that write ABC
should specify the codepage in a standardized way,
unless the
From: Guido Gonzato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
My personl view is that extensions are always welcome if the make
life
easier, but calling them 'standard' is only possible if/when they
are
actually implemented by a large number of applications. Remember,
I
believe in 'de facto' standards.
In the case
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Guido Gonzato wrote:
I think that m: is a wonderful and very useful
extension to the standard, but AFAIK BarFly is the
only program that supports it.
I'm fair enough to admit that BarFly is a widely used
and significant ABC program; so if Phil says that his
macro facility
On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 09:03:24AM +0200, Guido Gonzato wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2003, I. Oppenheim wrote:
m: ~n3 = n{o}n{m}n
I think that m: is a wonderful and very useful extension to the standard,
but AFAIK BarFly is the only program that supports it. In my view, macros
shouldn't be part
On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 09:25:46AM +0200, I. Oppenheim wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Guido Gonzato wrote:
In the draft, I didn't mention codepages, iso and
some such. I'm sure 95% of ABC users would not
understand what it's all about.
Probably; but the software packages that write ABC
On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 09:34:03AM +0200, Guido Gonzato wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, I. Oppenheim wrote:
And what about \'a style accent notation?
obviously, I've added a section that deals with it! :-)
Is there a list anywhere of which programs recognise which of these
sequences ?
--
Guido Gonzato wrote:
| On Wed, 2 Jul 2003, I. Oppenheim wrote:
|
| m: ~n3 = n{o}n{m}n
|
| I think that m: is a wonderful and very useful extension to the standard,
| but AFAIK BarFly is the only program that supports it. In my view, macros
| shouldn't be part of the notation, and should be
From: I. Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 00:32:27 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)
[...]
All the standard says is : Generally one line of abc
notation will produce one line of music, although if the
music is too long it will overflow onto the next line.
Jeff Bigler writes:
|
| 2) We seem to be in danger of falling into the trap of everything that
|any known ABC-related application does has to be included in the
|standard. This runs the risks of
|
|a) making the standard too difficult to interpret and/or implement,
| and
|
|
I. Oppenheim wrote:
|
| All I wrote is that ABC tunes are written using
| characters: A-Z, a-z, and some symbols.
|
| And what about \'a style accent notation?
Those are a slightly-abbreviated version of the TeX
notation, supported by abc2mtex and abc2ps. What other abc
tools
Jeff Bigler wrote:
There's been a lot of traffic on this topic already. Two things I'd
like to emphasize:
I'd recommend that in general, we try not to add features to the
standard unless:
a) there is consensus (or at least an overwhelming majority opinion)
as to what the feature
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Laura Conrad
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
Richard == Richard Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
Richard Umm. Even if you only write in Spanish, French, German, Danish,
Richard Norwegian, Swedish ... you're going to want non-127 accented
Richard characters.
I suspect that the only things the abc standard has to worry about,
as far as applications on different platforms go, is to do with
specification of text fonts and definition of (accented etc)
characters in text.
And instrumental sounds. BarFly does this via the numerical codes
from the
I think that m: is a wonderful and very useful extension to the standard,
but AFAIK BarFly is the only program that supports it. In my view, macros
shouldn't be part of the notation, and should be implemented using
external tools like preprocessors. But that's just an opinion. I think
I'll
There are lots of abc2win files on the net which use the exclamation
mark for a different purpose
Can you be specific there? As a developer I'd like to know!
It's a line terminator. In ABC2Win, it's the only way to start
a new line of staff notation at a user-defined point, which is
would allow people to go beyond the standard in a way in which other
apps could ignore. (Or pick up.) The rule would simply have to be
that if such elements are omitted, the remaining music has to obey
the standard and make sense.
For this kind of in-line stuff, maybe you could use the
Bernard == Bernard Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Richard Umm. Even if you only write in Spanish, French, German, Danish,
Richard Norwegian, Swedish ... you're going to want non-127 accented
Richard characters. If you don't write lyrics you'll want them for a tune
Richard title.
Bernard Hill writes:
|
| Is there a difference between a macro and a simple symbol such as
| !trill! ?
|
| What exactly are we implementing here?
|
| U:T=!trill!
|
| is not what I'd call a macro but
|
| U:T=!abc!
|
| is if you mean it to be the notes abc written in where T is seen.
This makes it
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Manuel Reiter wrote:
sorry to answer my own post, but I've gotten a bit further after some
reading up of Postscript specs and a lot of guesswork. ;-)
By modifying 'subs.c' and 'syms.c' modified from the
current (08-Apr-2003) version of jcabc2ps jcabc2ps
can handle macron
Do any of the implementations allow multiple assignments per U: statement?
ex.
U: T = !trill! X = ^+
rather than:
U: T = !trill!
U: X = ^+
The examples in the draft standard all follow the latter example, but the
explanation doesn't specifically state that there can only be one symbolic
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, John Chambers wrote:
Part of the problem seems to be that a few years ago,
the Microsoft Outlook package introduced a sort of
programming language that they called macros. Why
they used this term is somewhat of a mystery,
John, the Wordperfect wordprocessor had already
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, John Norvell wrote:
Do any of the implementations allow multiple
assignments per U: statement? ex.
I'm pretty sure most implementations will not allow
that, so don't rely on it.
Groeten,
Irwin Oppenheim
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
~~~*
Chazzanut Online:
Buddha Buck writes:
|
| Maybe adopting the IETF policy that there has to be at least two
| independent interoperable implementations of something before it becomes
| standard. Or something similar.
Good idea.
We might go over the multi-voice implementations with this
in mind. One that
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, John Chambers wrote:
All we need now is a non-abc2ps-clone program that is
as liberal, and we can state in the standard that
such lines can go anywhere
I do not agree with this approach.
A standard should document advisable behaviour, not all
the possible errors that
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Jack Campin wrote:
There are lots of abc2win files on the net which
use the exclamation mark for a different purpose
Can you be specific there? As a developer I'd like to know!
It's a line terminator.
The BNF standard
http://www.norbeck.nu/abc/abcbnfx.htm
explicitly
On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 06:05:19PM +0200, I. Oppenheim wrote:
I argued already in another e-mail why ABC software
should NOT assume that a bare newline indicates the end
of a music line. The software should do the line
formatting itself, and if the user should wish to
override the default
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Laura Conrad
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
Bernard == Bernard Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Richard Umm. Even if you only write in Spanish, French, German, Danish,
Richard Norwegian, Swedish ... you're going to want non-127 accented
Richard characters. If
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jack Campin
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
There are lots of abc2win files on the net which use the exclamation
mark for a different purpose
Can you be specific there? As a developer I'd like to know!
It's a line terminator. In ABC2Win, it's the only way to start
a new
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED]
chemnitz.de, Joerg Anders [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
A short remark about this. Somtimes open source is equated with
cost free. But even if I'd produce a Qt-only version, you had
to pay a lot. Not to me but to the Qt developer Trolltech and
to Microsoft.
So what
' modified from the current (08-Apr-2003)
| version of jcabc2ps found at
|
| http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/abc/src/jcabc2ps-src.tar.gz
I put the modified version at:
http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/abc/src/jcabc2ps-20030703-src.tar.gz
I've always included a link to a file with such a date
On Thursday, July 3, 2003, at 06:43 AM, Bernard Hill wrote:
So what encourages the developer to develop code if there is no payment
to the developer?
Why are there amateur musicians who perform without being paid for it?
* Playing music is fun, payment or not.
* They want to compose their own
John == John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
John One thing I can see missing right now is the cedille that
John Romanian and Polish use on some letters other than C. I
John suppose the obvious notation for this would be \,s and \,t.
It's called an ogonek (in Polish, anyway),
John Chambers wrote:
One suggestion: Maybe we should not refer to the U: lines
as macros.
Indeed.
They are just string substitution.
No, they aren't that either. The original usage of U: as implemented
in BarFly is neither a macro nor a string substitution. It cannot
be implemented by a
John Chambers wrote:
| And what about \'a style accent notation?
Those are a slightly-abbreviated version of the TeX
notation, supported by abc2mtex and abc2ps. What other abc
tools implement these?
This is the set that BarFly supports (the right hand column may not
come out correct
Dear ABCers,
Since I am not much of a musician or active developer of any music
software yet, I'd like to make a few comments and observations as an end
user of (some of) the ABC tools. Far be it from me to educate anyone in
this group. I'd only like to share with you my way of seeing things.
I. Oppenheim writes:
| On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Manuel Reiter wrote:
|
| sorry to answer my own post, but I've gotten a bit further after some
| reading up of Postscript specs and a lot of guesswork. ;-)
|
| By modifying 'subs.c' and 'syms.c' modified from the
| current (08-Apr-2003) version of
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That's exactly what Abacus does. Version 1 is
available from http://www.abacusmusic.co.uk/ but hang
around, maybe just for a few days, and version 2 will
be out.
Seems to be a nice idea! Only too bad that when I made
a typing mistake, your
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Bernard Hill wrote:
A short remark about this. Somtimes open source is equated with
cost free. But even if I'd produce a Qt-only version, you had
to pay a lot. Not to me but to the Qt developer Trolltech and
to Microsoft.
So what encourages the developer to develop
Bernard Hill writes:
| In message [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| chemnitz.de, Joerg Anders [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
|
| A short remark about this. Somtimes open source is equated with
| cost free. But even if I'd produce a Qt-only version, you had
| to pay a lot. Not to me but to the Qt developer Trolltech
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], A.M. Kuchling
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
On Thursday, July 3, 2003, at 06:43 AM, Bernard Hill wrote:
So what encourages the developer to develop code if there is no payment
to the developer?
Why are there amateur musicians who perform without being paid for it?
Joerg Anders writes:
| On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Bernard Hill wrote:
| I confess I don't understand the Linux setup *at all*.
|
| Perhaps interesting: Two Microsoft ingeneers, Vinod Valloppillil and
| Josh Cohen had the task to answer this question in an internal
| Microsoft paper, which was betrayed
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Calum
Galleitch [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
On Thursday 03 July 2003 10:43 am, Bernard Hill wrote:
So what encourages the developer to develop code if there is no payment
to the developer?
AMK mostly summarised it. I found it difficult to really understand why it
I think my notion of modularity has been somewhat mis-represented.
Perhaps the idea as other folk have it is a good one, maybe better than mine.
I'll leave that decision to others [1], but as I think my original notion has
been misunderstood, I'll try and explain it a bit better than I did the
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Bernard Hill wrote:
As a programmer I'm very concerned about ! as a line terminator.
Now add two line terminators (presumably not illegal)
abc abc|!trill! abc abc|! abc abc |! abc abc|
According to the BNF definition
http://www.norbeck.nu/abc/abcbnfx.htm
The bang is NOT
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Chambers
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
Bernard Hill writes:
| In message [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| chemnitz.de, Joerg Anders [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
|
| A short remark about this. Somtimes open source is equated with
| cost free. But even if I'd produce a Qt-only version,
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], I. Oppenheim
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Bernard Hill wrote:
As a programmer I'm very concerned about ! as a line terminator.
Now add two line terminators (presumably not illegal)
abc abc|!trill! abc abc|! abc abc |! abc abc|
According to the
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Bernard Hill wrote:
According to the BNF definition
http://www.norbeck.nu/abc/abcbnfx.htm
The bang is NOT a line terminator; the newline (\n)
terminates the INPUT line.
When a bang appears at the very END of such an input
line, it forces a line break in the music
Eric Luis,
Thank you so much for your advice. It turned out that
those gray lines where indeed caused by the antialias
parameter of ghostscript. I found out that the
Helvetica font probably gives the best readable results
on low resolution.
So here's what I managed to achieve:
[!...!] is peculiar to abcm2ps
It's in the new standard 1.6
and will completely screw up ABC2WIN (which uses ! as a line terminator).
Strikes me that it's abc2win which is up the gum tree for this one.
And I find very strange stuff in abc2win:
a) +..+ for chords
b) the writing of grace
I argued already in another e-mail why ABC software
should NOT assume that a bare newline indicates the end
of a music line. The software should do the line
formatting itself, and if the user should wish to
override the default behaviour, he could use the
!-newline notation to force a
According to the BNF definition
http://www.norbeck.nu/abc/abcbnfx.htm
The bang is NOT a line terminator; the newline (\n)
terminates the INPUT line.
When a bang appears at the very END of such an input
line, it forces a line break in the music OUTPUT.
Apparently that's not true of the program
I.Oppenheim wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That's exactly what Abacus does. Version 1 is
available from http://www.abacusmusic.co.uk/ but hang
around, maybe just for a few days, and version 2 will
be out.
Seems to be a nice idea! Only too bad that when I made
a typing
According to the BNF definition
http://www.norbeck.nu/abc/abcbnfx.htm
The bang is NOT a line terminator
Which was a booboo on the part of whoever let that through.
Supporting the existing corpus of tunes is *alone* more
important than allowing an inessential idiosyncratic extension
in one
Irwin Oppenheim said -
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That's exactly what Abacus does. Version 1 is
available from http://www.abacusmusic.co.uk/ but hang
around, maybe just for a few days, and version 2 will
be out.
Seems to be a nice idea! Only too bad that when I made
a
On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 11:41:26PM +0100, Phil Taylor wrote:
I.Oppenheim wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That's exactly what Abacus does. Version 1 is
available from http://www.abacusmusic.co.uk/ but hang
around, maybe just for a few days, and version 2 will
be
Bernard Hill writes:
|
| ... none of that tells me why anyone creates software in the first
| place. I do not start projects which are not going to bring money in. I
| see clearly that as an end-user having the source code is beneficial -
| but what's in it for the programmer who created it?
Jack Campin writes:
|
| But there are thousands of tunes out there using ! as a line terminator;
| like it or not, that is one feature of ABC2WIN's syntax that caught on.
| They matter more than any one application.
I've had to face this with my tune finder's scripts. What I
did was to add some
From: Calum Galleitch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 20:03:01 +
That doesn't mean that all software should be made Free. Your
software is unique, as far as I know, in coming as close to a freehand
notation package as possible. I don't think there's anything else
with your
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