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Hi James,
I once heard that in (European) law French is the language of choice
because it were the most precise one (which I find easy to believe).
Maybe we should try and convince journals to only accept articles
written in French - not sure, this
Oui bon d'accord, mais il faudra tout de même décider si utiliser vitrifiés
ou bien congelés...
sorry couldn't resist ;-)
s
On Nov 16, 2012, at 10:54 AM, Tim Gruene wrote:
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Hi James,
I once heard that in (European) law French is the
What about introducing the use of Franglais in the crystallographic
literature ? Ce serait cool !
Fred.
On 16/11/12 11:24, Sebastiano Pasqualato wrote:
Oui bon d'accord, mais il faudra tout de même décider si utiliser
vitrifiés ou bien congelés...
sorry couldn't resist ;-)
s
On Nov 16,
Dear all,
I think we are perhaps being a little bit insular, or blinkered, in
this discussion. The breakthrough we are talking about, and don't know how
to call, first occurred not in crystallography but in electron microscopy,
in the hands of Jacques Dubochet at EMBL Heidelberg in the early
board [CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] on behalf of Javier Gonzalez
[bio...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:35 AM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] vitrification vs freezing
Hi Sebastiano,
I think the term vitrified crystal could be understood as a very nice
oxymoron
Dear all,
I surely was not hoping in such a huge response to my original question.
I think we all have read excellent contributions, and pleasant posts.
Although, as often happens, a unique consensus has not emerged, I have for sure
a clearer idea of what I should use in the future, and have
HI Tim,
you should know better. German is the most precise language, hence all those
old German *gosh* books (for the younger readers of this board, there was a
time before pdf and Nook readers) for organic chemistry etc. from the 19th
century and older (Beilstein, Angewandte ...). And why was
How about Latin? It already has a long and distinguished history of use in
science. :)
Eric
On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 4:54 AM, Tim Gruene t...@shelx.uni-ac.gwdg.de wrote:
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Hi James,
I once heard that in (European) law French is the language of
As a referee I also dislike the word freezing but only if improperly
used:
The crystals were frozen in LN2 is not acceptable because it is the
outside
liquor that is rapidly cooled to cryogenic temperatures.
But the use of freezing used as the opposite of melting is fine and
does not
Hi,
Maybe we could just state the obvious, ie, that the crystals were
'Cryo-preserved' in liquid N2.
Cheers
Ganesh
Le 16/11/12 16:27, Enrico Stura a écrit :
As a referee I also dislike the word freezing but only if improperly
used:
The crystals were frozen in LN2 is not acceptable
On Nov 16, 2012, at 10:27 AM, Enrico Stura est...@cea.fr wrote:
As a referee I also dislike the word freezing but only if improperly used:
The crystals were frozen in LN2 is not acceptable because it is the outside
liquor that is rapidly cooled to cryogenic temperatures.
right, while the
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] vitrification vs freezing
Dear all,
I think we are perhaps being a little bit insular, or blinkered, in
this discussion. The breakthrough we are talking about, and don't know how
to call, first occurred not in crystallography but in electron microscopy,
in the hands
I enjoyed following this thread. Because English is not my first language, I
was hoping to learn the official definitions of these terms.
In my opinion, all the variations proposed so far are fine - I don't see
problems with using them.
For me, when I see flash frozen in liquid nitrogen or
I completely agree with Quyen. One of the many definitions of freeze is to
make extremely cold. It is grammatically correct to say freezing your
crystals, especially since, as you point out, everyone reading it knows
exactly what you did, and which definition of freeze you were referring too.
I'm a little confused. Petsko and others were doing
low-temperature/freezing/vitrification crystal experiments in the 1970s, right?
(J. Mol. Biol., 96(3) 381, 1975). Is there a big difference between what they
were doing and what's done now.
Ron
On Fri, 16 Nov 2012, Gerard Bricogne wrote:
I was going to mention that too, but since I was a postdoc of Petsko my words
could have been viewed as biased.
Quyen
On Nov 16, 2012, at 1:26 PM, Ronald E Stenkamp stenk...@u.washington.edu
wrote:
I'm a little confused. Petsko and others were doing
Dear Quyen and Ron,
Thank you for bringing up this work. I can remember hearing Greg Petsko
give a seminar at the LMB in Cambridge around 1974, but I never read that
paper. The seminar was about cooling crystals at 4C, and also about work
done with Pierre Douzou to try and retain the high
On Nov 16, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Ronald E Stenkamp wrote:
I'm a little confused. Petsko and others were doing
low-temperature/freezing/vitrification crystal experiments in the 1970s,
right? (J. Mol. Biol., 96(3) 381, 1975). Is there a big difference between
what they were doing and what's
On 11/16/2012 12:54 PM, Kendall Nettles wrote:
I wouldn't go into the lab and say did you cryo-cool those crystals yet? or
check out this nice crystal. Its ready for vitrification.
If we speak the way scientific articles are written...
By Bernard Dixon, published in New Scientist, 11
Actually, to echo Ron, many low-temperature/freezing/vitrification crystal
experiments were done in the 1970's, some by Tsernoglou and Petsko, when they
were both at Wayne State, I believe. However, the direction Jacques Dubochet
was looking at was an extension of work from the early 1960's.
On Nov 16, 2012, at 12:01 PM, Ed Pozharski wrote:
On 11/16/2012 12:54 PM, Kendall Nettles wrote:
I wouldn't go into the lab and say did you cryo-cool those crystals yet?
or check out this nice crystal. Its ready for vitrification.
If we speak the way scientific articles are written...
In the 1975 paper, they describe taking crystals to -100C, but it wasn't done in a
flash sort of way. They equilibrated the crystals with various solvent
combinations as the temperature was reduced.
Trying to recollect what was discussed by my lab mates nearly 40 years ago, I
think the fact
Hi Ed,
If we speak the way scientific articles are written...
By Bernard Dixon, published in New Scientist, 11 April 1968, p.73, an
imaginary conversation at breakfast:
Daddy, I want cornflakes this morning. Must I have porridge?
Yes. It has been suggested by mummy that, in view of
warning - tangential:
Steven Pinker's talk/promo on his new-new book The Sense of Style :
Scientific Communication for the 21st Century :
*
*
http://video.mit.edu/watch/communicating-science-and-technology-in-the-21st-century-steven-pinker-12644/
-Bryan
Bernard Dixon is merely copying the great essay by George Orwell 'politics and
the english language'. Its well worth a read.
In it, Orwell lays out about six simple rules for writing good english prose.
Three of them are:
never use the passive voice.
Always use the anglosaxon word instead
On 11/16/12 17:33, Adrian Goldman wrote:
Bernard Dixon is merely copying the great essay by George Orwell 'politics and
the english language'. Its well worth a read.
In it, Orwell lays out about six simple rules for writing good english prose.
Three of them are:
never use the passive voice.
Dear Andrew,
Re cryocooled.
Cooled?
It reminds me of James Bond where Martinis should be shaken but not stirred.
Ie Cooling sounds awfully gentle, a sort of enjoying a cool sea breeze in the
Caribbean heat. (Ian Fleming wrote his Bond novels there.)
Shock frozen is more what we are doing to
Dear Sebastiano,
This is not entirely straight-forward.
The Oxford English dictionary gives the first definition of freeze
relevant to this discussion as:
Of (a body of) water: be converted into or become covered with ice
through loss of heat
This is
Hi Sebastiano,
Elspeth Garman howls bloody murder everytime someone says they froze
their crystals. I think her issue is with the description of the process of
successfully flashcooling crystals in the presence of cryoprotectants as
freezing. Freezing technically is understood to imply the
On Thursday, November 15, 2012 09:13:58 am you wrote:
Hi folks,
I have recently received a comment on a paper, in which referee #1 (excellent
referee, btw!) commented like this:
crystals were vitrified rather than frozen.
These were crystals grew in ca. 2.5 M sodium malonate, directly
s: An alternative way to avoid the argument and discussion all together
is to use cryo-cooled.
Tim: You go to a restaurant, spend all that time and money and order a
fruitcake?
Cheers,
N.
On 11/15/2012 11:59 AM, Tim Gruene wrote:
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Dear s,
I have
Dear Andrew,
I would suggest that Larousse may need to revisit their entry -
freeze-drying (in every context I have come across it) refers to
lyophilisation, which (i) specifically requires the formation of ice
crystals, and (ii) results in the removal of all of the resulting ice from
the sample.
Perhaps it's an artisan organic locavore fruit cake.
Either way, your *crystal* is not vitrified. The solvent in your
crystal might be glassy but your protein better still hold crystalline
order (cf. ice) or you've wasted your time.
Ergo, cryo-cooled is the description to use.
Phil Jeffrey
Hi Tim,
in the UK, you'd probably be rather surprised how many nuts your
fruitcake contains, none of them strawberries (thus the saying as nutty
as a fruitcake).
Andreas
On 15/11/2012 5:59, Tim Gruene wrote:
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Dear s,
I have heard this
On Thursday, November 15, 2012 10:14:54 am Raji Edayathumangalam wrote:
Hi Sebastiano,
Elspeth Garman howls bloody murder everytime someone says they froze
their crystals. I think her issue is with the description of the process of
successfully flashcooling crystals in the presence of
talking semantics, kruos (Κρυος), means just cold, not icy cold.
Cold in Greece is not nearly icy. Unlike the Netherlands ... it only gets cold
when its really icy ;-)
Tassos
On 15 Nov 2012, at 19:45, Ethan Merritt wrote:
From Greek kruos, icy cold
Hi Ethan,
I am not a linguist of Greek or even of English but I would assume that
the term cryo-cooling is advocated not by DRD but by the people who
want to distinguish between cooling down to *cryogenic* temperatures and
say, cooling from 25 C to 4 C.
Cheers,
N.
On 11/15/2012 12:45 PM,
Actually, there is a particular kind of freezing than can be a good
thing: cubic ice. The specific volume of cubic ice is about 2% higher
than that of amorphous solid water (or hyperquenched glassy water). In
cases where the preferred specific volume of the protein lattice is a
little
If Hakon Hope is reading this I can see his eyes rolling back in his head.
I vote for cryo-cooling, since he was one of the inventors of this
method, see the following abstract from his 1988 paper in Acta Cryst. B:
Methods have been developed that allow facile X-ray data collection for
Isn't cryo-cooled redundant?
James
On Nov 15, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Phil Jeffrey wrote:
Perhaps it's an artisan organic locavore fruit cake.
Either way, your *crystal* is not vitrified. The solvent in your crystal
might be glassy but your protein better still hold crystalline order (cf.
cryopreserved
It says that the crystals were transferred to cryogenic temperatures in an
attempt to increase their lifetime in the beam, and avoids all of the other
problems with all of the other language described.
I was really trying to stay out of this, because I understand what
On 15/11/2012 20:15, James Stroud wrote:
On Nov 15, 2012, at 10:59 AM, Tim Gruene wrote:
I have heard this discussion before and reminds me of people claiming
strawberries were nuts - which botanically may be correct, but would
still not make me complain about strawberries in a fruit cake I
Hi Sebastiano,
I think the term vitrified crystal could be understood as a very nice
oxymoron (http://www.oxymoronlist.com/), but it is essentially
self-contradictory and not technically correct.
As Ethan said, vitrify means turn into glass. Now, a glass state is a
disordered solid state by
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