My main issue with the idea of the TC being legally binding is the
assumption that the person who used the system is the same person who
agreed to the Terms and Conditions, or even that they agreed to the
Terms and Conditions at all!
Take the recent Flash Player click-jacking fix. If a website
of
INPS or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended recipient
please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Jeff Howard
Sent: 28 October 2008 13:57
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Terms
On a different perspective, I always try to think of Terms and Conditions
being binding on the *website* not on the user - the user is giving us data
as long as we agree to follow our Terms and Conditions. Then the TCs are
things like we won't sell your email address and so on.
Tim
On Thu, Oct
In the for what its worth department...the solution that has been
approved by legal is to have the TCs all out there (no forced
height/scrollbar) with the Agree check box at the end along with
other signature items to complete.
As far as comments around trying to simplify TCs, whether they have
If we have captured their acknowledgement, then we have at least
some proof that it was seen.
Which, unfortunately, shows that the intent isn't for it to be useful,
but to cover the company's backside. That's why I feel it is important
for both UI/IxD and legal depts. to think about their
That's awesome! Also, it should have a timer. Calculate how long it
would actually take to read and understand the terms and conditions
and then prevent the user from proceeding before that time has
elapsed. 45 minutes ought to do it. ;-)
// jeff
Santiago wrote:
1. Place a link or button
If I remember correctly, when I got my new credit card with Virgin
Money, they had a TC I had to sign, but they also had a human
version, which I actually read!
Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
To post to this
If I remember correctly, when I got my new credit card with Virgin
Money, they had a TC I had to sign, but they also had a human
version, which I actually read!
If I think of more personal services, such as getting a home loan
(anyone still get one of those these days?!) or a pension,
WellI am glad I brought up the topic...
However, I am still looking for samples.
@ Andy Polaine %u2013 If I remember correctly, even though Apple
brings up another window to click Agree or not to, you still do not
have to reach the bottom of the TC for the window to open.
@ Jay Morgan
@ Andy Polaine %u2013 If I remember correctly, even though Apple
brings up another window to click Agree or not to, you still do not
have to reach the bottom of the TC for the window to open.
Yes, that's right. But it does force an Accept or Don't Accept
decision before you can go any
I am certainly not trying to make a case that it is a good idea to
force someone to scroll to the bottom to accept the TC. I fully
agree there are better ways to handle this. And I also like the Apple
way of doing it.
However, the company is mandating that %u201Cthe user must reach the
end of the
On Oct 27, 2008, at 10:43 AM, Santiago Bustelo wrote:
it is the job of every designer to blunt and, where possible,
eliminate the lawyer's attempts to sabotage your company's
products.
Or die trying.
Welcome to the Interaction
Go to any Kinkos and sign into one of their self-serve computers.
Their terms and conditions make you scroll to the bottom of the
textbox before activating the buttons.
// jeff
bmclaughlin wrote:
However, I am still looking for samples.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
] On Behalf Of
Chauncey Wilson
Sent: Tuesday, 28 October 2008 4:23 AM
To: Eva Kaniasty
Cc: IxDA Discuss
Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Terms and Conditions with a twist
The underlying issue here is how legal forms are evaluated. We can
evaluate
whether people understand the terms, but that is not the same
I am looking for sample of Terms and Conditions acceptance with a bit of a
twist.
Generally when I have set up TC acceptance in the past, there is a scrollable
box with all the legal text followed by either a check box to say that you have
read/accept the TC or there are radio button for “yes”
The online game - Eve Online eve-online.com - implements this for their TC
during the installation. When you scroll to the bottom of the text you get
the option to accept or decline - but not before. This is an installed
application rather than a Web site, but the principle is as you've described
It's such an insane way of thinking about TCs though because it
assumes people actually read them. Nobody does. At least nobody that I
know.
I once told a legal team from a bank that calling the legal info
important information was terrible because it isn't important to
anyone except
Terms and conditions can be important and they do impose legal obligations
so perhaps we should encourage reading them through good design. I bought
some clip art once and since my wife is an IP lawyer was always encouraged
to read the Terms and Conditions I discovered that I could use the clip
The same applies to the immensely popular and disruptive game World of
Warcraft. After every major update, the user is forced to at least scroll
all the way to the bottom of the terms before Accept or Decline are
accessible.
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 5:59 AM, Steve Baty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Perhaps we should encourage people to read the terms and conditions.
Or perhaps we should not have quite so many terms and conditions and
everyone relax a bit more. Copyright is in a tailspin anyway...
Best,
Andy
Andy Polaine
Slightly away from the original topic, Chauncey I think you raise a
great point... I wonder if the lawyers who insist TCs are prominent
and must be fully 'eye-balled' to be accepted would be willing to
take it a step further and look at the usability of their document?
Maybe creating an index of
Great intention, for sure. But doesn't that make the situation even more
complex? You'd have to account for scenarios like I agreed to what was
mentioned in the Simple English! versus Well, no, you agreed to the
legalise. The Simple English and raw versions have no technical relation to
one
Great intention, for sure. But doesn't that make the situation even
more complex? You'd have to account for scenarios like I agreed to
what was
mentioned in the Simple English! versus Well, no, you agreed to
the legalise. The Simple English and raw versions have no technical
relation to
Can't we make that the lawyers problem? ;-)
Seriously, I wasn't thinking of re-writing the doc, more like a
layman's reference... take for example Chauncey's case above about
limited use of the clip art graphic. That's really important
information that most people will miss. So the reference
Actually
Terms and conditions are complex and in the USA, states generally follow the
UCC, the Uniform Commercial Code, which generally harmonizes all the
different laws into one that is complex, but can be used across state
borders and one that lawyers recognize across the USA. So, complex
.
- Original Message -
From: McLaughlin Designs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Monday, October 27, 2008 4:46 am
Subject: [IxDA Discuss] Terms and Conditions with a twist
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I am looking for sample of Terms and Conditions acceptance with
a bit of a twist.
Generally when I have set up
At 2:19 PM +0100 10/27/08, Andy Polaine wrote:
snip
Sigh.
p.s. To answer your question, sort of, Apple's installers do
something similar. They show a screen of legal cack, then when you
just hit continue it pops up an Accept Don't Accept alert that
you have to click on one of to continue.
Commission Junction is using that kind of TC form in the application
process.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=34863
Welcome to the
Perfect timing for this discussion. I get to copy paste my thoughts from
another list. :)
I think this is an interesting area for us usability folks to talk about.
Does legalese really have to be written in a style that is inaccessible to
99% of the population?
I would argue that there is a
The underlying issue here is how legal forms are evaluated. We can evaluate
whether people understand the terms, but that is not the same as the
evaluation that goes on in court. So, apart from all the opinion about
reading comprehension, is there any empirical data on the efficacy of
simplified
There is a way to ensure users actually read the TC:
1. Place a link or button labeled I read the Terms Conditions
at the bottom of the terms...
2. ...leading to a multiple choice test on legal issues, that users
must pass in order to continue.
For extra points, change the questions on page
On Bruce Tognazzi's words:
it is the job of every designer to blunt and, where possible,
eliminate the lawyer's attempts to sabotage your company's
products.
Full article: http://www.asktog.com/columns/049Lawyers.html
--
Santiago Bustelo // icograma
Buenos Aires, Argentina
. . . . . . . . .
At 1:23 PM -0400 10/27/08, Chauncey Wilson wrote:
The underlying issue here is how legal forms are evaluated. We can evaluate
whether people understand the terms, but that is not the same as the
evaluation that goes on in court. So, apart from all the opinion about
reading comprehension, is
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Katie Albers [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
Similar issues exist throughout law...what sounds like the plain English
translation may carry or fail to carry very particular and important pieces
of the meaning of the statement.
kt
That's a great point Katie. It
Original question about 'how to force/ensure TC perusal prior to
agreement':Years ago (early 2000's) I was branded by this experience where a
TC dialogue box broke my expectations: After several attempts to click
through, I figured out i *had to* scroll all the way through the TC text
box before I
that is the ultimate
protection.
Jennifer Vignone
User Experience Design
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Andy Polaine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10/27/2008 09:19 AM
To
IxDA List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc
Subject
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Terms and Conditions with a twist
It's such an insane way
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