Re: [Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Hi Everyone,

In the interest of reducing email overload for our readers, it is time to close 
this thread as we are over the OT posting limit of 5 to10 at most.


Plesse self moderate in the future.

73,
Eric
Mooderator etc.
/elecraft.com/


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Re: [Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

[W5RDW]

I had this stored on my computer. Good reading on this subject.

http://www.arrl.org/forum/topics/view/46





-
Roger W5RDW
--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/OT-A-C-RFI-tp7632552p7632575.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

[John K9UWA]

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Re: [Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

[Fred Jensen]

We had a well for 38 years, went through three 4 HP down-hole pumps, and 
I never observed any RFI from it or the control/capacitor box at the 
well head.  The 240 V service to the entrance was buried.  The pump ran 
a lot when the irrigation system was on [making Pacific Gas & Electric 
very happy [:-( ].  Our neighbor's A/C, about 200 ft from my tower was 
something else again.


73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV USA
Washoe County DM09dn

On 7/19/2017 9:02 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

Frankly, I've never checked to see if the down-hole pump is an RFI
source...  Only use the well when I am outside for the most part...
That's why I solicited Jim's opinion of the case.

I'll have to run a purposely test.

I would think I could filter at/near where the AC lines go in/out of the
hole (outside, and put in a metal enclosure?)  And when I finally finish
the pump control/distribution manifold in the back yard, the AC lines
will be over-sized, twisted pair, and in grounded conduit.
Will do whatever is required to keep things quiet.  My quiet zone is
slowly growing.  :)

73,

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389



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Re: [Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

[Jim Brown]

On 7/19/2017 7:52 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

H  Jim...  I have a variable speed down-hole pump on my water
well...  reckon that could cause RFI via the AC wiring?
The down-hole pump is 220VDC on dedicated circuit, and shack is on a
separate dedicated circuit from same service with separate sub-panel.


This is a complex question with no simple answer. Current flows in 
loops, the loops produce magnetic fields which couple into other loops, 
and the current also produces radiation. Radiation from the parts of the 
loop that are under ground are certainly less than if they were above 
ground. Those currents also produce IR drops.


Another mechanism that is often overlooked is leakage current on the 
"green wire" as a result of capacitive coupling from the phase (hot) 
conductor(s). This creates potential differences for that trash between 
one equipment chassis and another. This is most often an issue at 
baseband (harmonics of 50/60 Hz) but could also be a factor at RF.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

[Jim Brown]

This is gross over-simplification, but it is, sadly, the thinking of the 
EMC community and the regulations on EMC.


I've written extensively on this, so won't repeat it here. Here's the 
most recent.


http://k9yc.com/KillingReceiveNoise.pdf

And, of course, k9yc.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

VERY little RFI is conducted INTO equipment via the power line. Most RF 
trash is conducted out of equipment by "the Pin One Problem" as a common 
mode current on cable shields and the power system "green wire." it is 
then radiated by that wiring, and ends up on our antennas like any other 
radiated signal.  This is the mechanism for radiation from CATV systems, 
power systems, and nearly all electronics.


RF trash is also radiated by wiring internal to equipment as a result of 
poor circuit layout and poor shielding. Both conditions must be present 
-- it's entirely practical to build unshielded equipment with no 
radiated trash using good circuit layout and construction. This 
mechanism is often important with "big" equipment like HVAC systems and 
solar systems.


73, Jim K9YC

On 7/19/2017 8:17 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:

There's basically two types of RFI.

Conducted --- Being noise/RFI traveling through the wiring thus via 
direct connection.  Conducted RFI can be attenuated to satisfactory 
levels by including a power line filter in the system {preferably at 
the source}. The filter suppresses conducted noise leaving the unit, 
reducing RFI to acceptable levels.  It also helps to lower the 
susceptibility of the equipment to incoming power line noise that can 
affect its performance


Radiated --- Being noise/RFI  via the wiring into the air, i.e. 
transmitted.   Separation of power and antenna physically is often an 
improvement.  Radiated RFI is usually controlled by providing proper 
shielding in the enclosure of the equipment.


Regarding separate circuits, in most all cases each circuit terminates 
into the service panel to which all are then common. The advantage 
I've seen with separate circuits is in the distribution of neutral 
current.   A large unbalance in load between L1 and L2 results in a 
differential  neutral current.  In this case, the IR value will cause 
the neutral to be above earth/ground.


Often, figuring out which type and source is the challenge.

73
Bob, K4TAX

On 7/19/2017 9:52 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

H  Jim...  I have a variable speed down-hole pump on my water
well...  reckon that could cause RFI via the AC wiring?
The down-hole pump is 220VDC on dedicated circuit, and shack is on a
separate dedicated circuit from same service with separate sub-panel.

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389





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Re: [Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

[Clay Autery]

Frankly, I've never checked to see if the down-hole pump is an RFI
source...  Only use the well when I am outside for the most part... 
That's why I solicited Jim's opinion of the case.

I'll have to run a purposely test.

I would think I could filter at/near where the AC lines go in/out of the
hole (outside, and put in a metal enclosure?)  And when I finally finish
the pump control/distribution manifold in the back yard, the AC lines
will be over-sized, twisted pair, and in grounded conduit.
Will do whatever is required to keep things quiet.  My quiet zone is
slowly growing.  :)

73,

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 7/19/2017 9:55 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
> Clay,
> Given that the pump is far, far underground, as is most of the wiring,
> I would expect it to be a trivial matter to filter the AC line, which
> should be the only thing radiating...  Was that the case for you?
>
> 73s and thanks,
> Dave
> NK7Z
> http://www.nk7z.net
>
> On 07/19/2017 07:52 AM, Clay Autery wrote:
>> H  Jim...  I have a variable speed down-hole pump on my water
>> well...  reckon that could cause RFI via the AC wiring?
>> The down-hole pump is 220VDC on dedicated circuit, and shack is on a
>> separate dedicated circuit from same service with separate sub-panel.
>>
>> __
>> Clay Autery, KY5G
>> MONTAC Enterprises
>> (318) 518-1389
>>
>> On 7/18/2017 10:40 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>>> On 7/18/2017 6:02 PM, Erik Basilier wrote:
 Need to replace my A/C, and worried about getting an RFI generator.

 A few years ago I saw some advice about taming a new unit, and maybe
 even
 getting instructions from the manufacturer.
>>>
>>> Dave Cole has given you excellent advice, and you should follow it
>>> carefully. I'll add this additional caution. The "upgrade" in HVAC
>>> systems (heating, ventilating, air conditioning) is a variable speed
>>> motor. The controllers for these motors are notorious for bad RFI, so
>>> by all means, do NOT buy that option.
>>>
>>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>
>> __
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>>
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Re: [Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

[Chuck, AE4CW]

Variable speed drives on HVAC units are indeed prone to RFI generation.  Five 
years ago I ordered a second TRANE HVAC for my home...identical model to the 
first EXCEPT the VDS was 3/4HP on the first and 1HP on the second.  The first 
TRANE unit was and is dead quiet...no VSD interference visible on a very 
sensitive panadapter from 500KHz to 54MHz.  The second unit turned out to be a 
prodigious RFI producer.  As the installer and TRANE were of no help 
whatsoever, I contacted the company and engineer who designed the motors (who 
also happened to be a ham), and here is what I learned:
1) the 3/4HP motor is known to be quiet.
2) the 1HP motor is problematic and RFI is difficult to control.
3) after installing some manufacturer provided filters and personally supplied 
chokes and capacitors on the 1HP motor, the INSIDE HVAC unit is now quiet. 
NOTE: Every wire that leaves the enclosure must be filtered.
4) HOWEVER, there was ANOTHER RFI generator in the system.  It turned out to be 
the cooling fan motor on the OUTSIDE compressor/condenser unit.  This motor was 
wired to run at a fixed speed and was chosen by TRANE as it is slightly more 
efficient than the tradition induction motor.

So, yes, choose VSD's for your HVAC system with great caution.  I personally 
like the variable air flow and increased efficiency, but they can come at a 
substantial cost in RFI.  While turning the beam around the neighborhood I can 
easily see multiple VSD dive noise signatures which are usually a burst of very 
closely spaced carriers (a few hertz apart) spaced about 18KHz apart.
---
Chuck, AE4CW

-Original Message-
From: Clay Autery [mailto:k...@montac.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 10:53:AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

H  Jim...  I have a variable speed down-hole pump on my water well...  
reckon that could cause RFI via the AC wiring?
The down-hole pump is 220VDC on dedicated circuit, and shack is on a separate 
dedicated circuit from same service with separate sub-panel.

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 7/18/2017 10:40 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> On 7/18/2017 6:02 PM, Erik Basilier wrote:
>> Need to replace my A/C, and worried about getting an RFI generator.
>>
>> A few years ago I saw some advice about taming a new unit, and maybe 
>> even getting instructions from the manufacturer.
>
> Dave Cole has given you excellent advice, and you should follow it 
> carefully. I'll add this additional caution. The "upgrade" in HVAC 
> systems (heating, ventilating, air conditioning) is a variable speed 
> motor. The controllers for these motors are notorious for bad RFI, so 
> by all means, do NOT buy that option.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC



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Re: [Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

There's basically two types of RFI.

Conducted --- Being noise/RFI traveling through the wiring thus via 
direct connection.  Conducted RFI can be attenuated to satisfactory 
levels by including a power line filter in the system {preferably at the 
source}. The filter suppresses conducted noise leaving the unit, 
reducing RFI to acceptable levels.  It also helps to lower the 
susceptibility of the equipment to incoming power line noise that can 
affect its performance


Radiated --- Being noise/RFI  via the wiring into the air, i.e. 
transmitted.   Separation of power and antenna physically is often an 
improvement.  Radiated RFI is usually controlled by providing proper 
shielding in the enclosure of the equipment.


Regarding separate circuits, in most all cases each circuit terminates 
into the service panel to which all are then common. The advantage I've 
seen with separate circuits is in the distribution of neutral current.   
A large unbalance in load between L1 and L2 results in a differential  
neutral current.  In this case, the IR value will cause the neutral to 
be above earth/ground.


Often, figuring out which type and source is the challenge.

73
Bob, K4TAX

On 7/19/2017 9:52 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

H  Jim...  I have a variable speed down-hole pump on my water
well...  reckon that could cause RFI via the AC wiring?
The down-hole pump is 220VDC on dedicated circuit, and shack is on a
separate dedicated circuit from same service with separate sub-panel.

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389





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Re: [Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

[Dave Cole]

Clay,
Given that the pump is far, far underground, as is most of the wiring, I 
would expect it to be a trivial matter to filter the AC line, which 
should be the only thing radiating...  Was that the case for you?


73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 07/19/2017 07:52 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

H  Jim...  I have a variable speed down-hole pump on my water
well...  reckon that could cause RFI via the AC wiring?
The down-hole pump is 220VDC on dedicated circuit, and shack is on a
separate dedicated circuit from same service with separate sub-panel.

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 7/18/2017 10:40 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 7/18/2017 6:02 PM, Erik Basilier wrote:

Need to replace my A/C, and worried about getting an RFI generator.

A few years ago I saw some advice about taming a new unit, and maybe
even
getting instructions from the manufacturer.


Dave Cole has given you excellent advice, and you should follow it
carefully. I'll add this additional caution. The "upgrade" in HVAC
systems (heating, ventilating, air conditioning) is a variable speed
motor. The controllers for these motors are notorious for bad RFI, so
by all means, do NOT buy that option.

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

[Clay Autery]

H  Jim...  I have a variable speed down-hole pump on my water
well...  reckon that could cause RFI via the AC wiring?
The down-hole pump is 220VDC on dedicated circuit, and shack is on a
separate dedicated circuit from same service with separate sub-panel.

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 7/18/2017 10:40 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> On 7/18/2017 6:02 PM, Erik Basilier wrote:
>> Need to replace my A/C, and worried about getting an RFI generator.
>>
>> A few years ago I saw some advice about taming a new unit, and maybe
>> even
>> getting instructions from the manufacturer.
>
> Dave Cole has given you excellent advice, and you should follow it
> carefully. I'll add this additional caution. The "upgrade" in HVAC
> systems (heating, ventilating, air conditioning) is a variable speed
> motor. The controllers for these motors are notorious for bad RFI, so
> by all means, do NOT buy that option.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

[Clay Autery]

Please include me in a list of folks who wants to follow/contribute to
this topic if/when it goes off-list.

I am shopping for HVAC right now...

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 7/18/2017 9:00 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> When this goes off list please add me as well...  Don't tell them what
> to do, tell them you want no RFI.  If you tell them what to do, and it
> does not work, it is your issue...  Make it their issue.  See my
> previous post.
>
> 73s and thanks,
> Dave
> NK7Z
> http://www.nk7z.net
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Re: [Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

[Dave Cole]

Thanks Jim!

I passed on the variable speed fan option as a result of the vendor 
telling me I should skip it to avoid possible RFI.


He also said it made little difference in performance...  BTW I have no 
detectable RFI from my system.


73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 07/18/2017 08:40 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 7/18/2017 6:02 PM, Erik Basilier wrote:

Need to replace my A/C, and worried about getting an RFI generator.

A few years ago I saw some advice about taming a new unit, and maybe even
getting instructions from the manufacturer.


Dave Cole has given you excellent advice, and you should follow it
carefully. I'll add this additional caution. The "upgrade" in HVAC
systems (heating, ventilating, air conditioning) is a variable speed
motor. The controllers for these motors are notorious for bad RFI, so by
all means, do NOT buy that option.

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

[Jim Brown]

On 7/18/2017 6:02 PM, Erik Basilier wrote:

Need to replace my A/C, and worried about getting an RFI generator.

A few years ago I saw some advice about taming a new unit, and maybe even
getting instructions from the manufacturer.


Dave Cole has given you excellent advice, and you should follow it 
carefully. I'll add this additional caution. The "upgrade" in HVAC 
systems (heating, ventilating, air conditioning) is a variable speed 
motor. The controllers for these motors are notorious for bad RFI, so by 
all means, do NOT buy that option.


73, Jim K9YC

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[Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

[James Wilson]

I'm sure all of us Elecraft users would be interested
in your findings.  One suggestion - broach the subject
with your contractor / dealer. Let him find from his
supplier what the noise situation is and how their
factory says they can cure it.

The one with the best assistant  may be the better
choice of AC unit.

Jim - W4RKS
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Re: [Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

[Dave Cole]

When this goes off list please add me as well...  Don't tell them what 
to do, tell them you want no RFI.  If you tell them what to do, and it 
does not work, it is your issue...  Make it their issue.  See my 
previous post.


73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 07/18/2017 06:54 PM, Kevin der Kinderen wrote:

The timing is perfect. Please keep it on the list or add me to your direct
replies. Maybe we can cut it short of the limit for OT subjects without
needing a reminder.

I have not had an AC since last summer and have also not had any noise
around the shack. Now it's just getting to hot to deal without central air
so I'm interviewing my second AC contractor on Thursday. I'd love to hear
some good ham advice on best practices for AC installations.

I was thinking at a minimum a good name brand (not a builders special, not
department store brand), good solid grounding, as far from the shack as
possible (not too possible here).

73,
Kev K4VD



On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 9:02 PM, Erik Basilier  wrote:


Need to replace my A/C, and worried about getting an RFI generator.

A few years ago I saw some advice about taming a new unit, and maybe even
getting instructions from the manufacturer.

Things change all the time, and at this point I would like to hear from
anyone with fresh advice: Brands to consider with minimal emissions och
solid instructions for filtering them out, etc.

Please reply directly to me, or keep it short on the list.

Thanks in advance,

73,

Erik K7TV

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Re: [Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

[Dave Cole]

Write it into the contract that the unit will not generate RFI above 
some level you are happy with, as received at your radio, using your 
current antenna, across the entire spectrum your radio covers.


I did, and the installers then made sure it was RFI proof...  I wrote it 
into the contract in general terms that favored me, and left it up to me 
to say yes or no as to if it were acceptable.


Bring it up first, remind them about it later, tell them it is a show 
stopper if the unit generates RFI, put it in writing...


Make sure EVERYTHING is in writing.  Be nice to them, but let them know 
in no uncertain terms that RFI is not acceptable to you, and they will 
be on the hook to correct it if RFI exists as a result of the new unit.


The vendors get really careful when you set things up that way...

73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 07/18/2017 06:02 PM, Erik Basilier wrote:

Need to replace my A/C, and worried about getting an RFI generator.

A few years ago I saw some advice about taming a new unit, and maybe even
getting instructions from the manufacturer.

Things change all the time, and at this point I would like to hear from
anyone with fresh advice: Brands to consider with minimal emissions och
solid instructions for filtering them out, etc.

Please reply directly to me, or keep it short on the list.

Thanks in advance,

73,

Erik K7TV

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Re: [Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

[Kevin der Kinderen]

The timing is perfect. Please keep it on the list or add me to your direct
replies. Maybe we can cut it short of the limit for OT subjects without
needing a reminder.

I have not had an AC since last summer and have also not had any noise
around the shack. Now it's just getting to hot to deal without central air
so I'm interviewing my second AC contractor on Thursday. I'd love to hear
some good ham advice on best practices for AC installations.

I was thinking at a minimum a good name brand (not a builders special, not
department store brand), good solid grounding, as far from the shack as
possible (not too possible here).

73,
Kev K4VD



On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 9:02 PM, Erik Basilier  wrote:

> Need to replace my A/C, and worried about getting an RFI generator.
>
> A few years ago I saw some advice about taming a new unit, and maybe even
> getting instructions from the manufacturer.
>
> Things change all the time, and at this point I would like to hear from
> anyone with fresh advice: Brands to consider with minimal emissions och
> solid instructions for filtering them out, etc.
>
> Please reply directly to me, or keep it short on the list.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> 73,
>
> Erik K7TV
>
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to kkinde...@gmail.com
>
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[Elecraft] OT A/C RFI

[Erik Basilier]

Need to replace my A/C, and worried about getting an RFI generator.

A few years ago I saw some advice about taming a new unit, and maybe even
getting instructions from the manufacturer.

Things change all the time, and at this point I would like to hear from
anyone with fresh advice: Brands to consider with minimal emissions och
solid instructions for filtering them out, etc.

Please reply directly to me, or keep it short on the list.

Thanks in advance,

73,

Erik K7TV

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