Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

terms of >>> dissipation-driven organization. They might find, for example, that >“the >>> reason that an organism shows characteristic X rather than Y may not >be >>> because X is more fit than Y, but because physical constraints make >it >>> easier for X to evolve

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

on < > nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> Wagner seems to support utterly my intuition that what the genome offers >> up is not random mutations but hypotheses for good living. The idea of >> evolution groping blindly through morphology space is absurd. >&g

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

gt; Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > Clark University > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > -Original Message- > From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of g??? > Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 12:11

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of g??? Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 2:28 PM To: FriAM <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate Heh, so you *agree* with Wagner that natural selection can preserve innovations, but it cannot create them? On 08/22/2017 11:21 AM, Nick Th

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

Heh, so you *agree* with Wagner that natural selection can preserve innovations, but it cannot create them? On 08/22/2017 11:21 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Wagner seems to support utterly my intuition that what the genome offers up > is not random mutations but hypotheses for good living. The

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of g??? Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 12:11 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v ind

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

am-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of ┣glen┫ <geprope...@gmail.com> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2017 10:28 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate I absolutely loathe the meme metaphor. I don't usually agree with Nick'

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

Ha! You see? That's not even wrong. 8^) But it's more plausible than asserting that my ideas are mutated and crossed over from ... yours ... or Szasz' ... or my mom's, for example. On August 13, 2017 11:22:21 AM PDT, Frank Wimberly wrote: >You are a typical

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

Well like I said in response to Frank's suggestion about self psychology, I tend towards a Szaszian perspective on talk therapy and psychology. But even that constellation of ideas, I think, has more structural truth to it than memetics. Of course my ignorance may be getting in my way here. So

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

Glen - I absolutely loathe the meme metaphor. I do agree that it has been overused and overpopularized. I don't usually agree with Nick's distinction between metaphor and analogy. 8^) But here, I claim the meme isn't *anything* like a gene... or more clearly, there is no idea/thought

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

I absolutely loathe the meme metaphor. I don't usually agree with Nick's distinction between metaphor and analogy. 8^) But here, I claim the meme isn't *anything* like a gene... or more clearly, there is no idea/thought construct that is anything like a gene. To explain why I hate it so

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

:03 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>; ┣glen┫ <geprope...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate Glen, Actually, I think you are probably right about crossovers! I can see how innovation can be attributed

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

c services collapse? Marcus From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Steven A Smith <sasm...@swcp.com> Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2017 1:10:02 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] random v stochasti

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

your point about "point mutations" and non-connected spaces (not connected by point mutations anyway) is well taken and is what I think your last message that I was calling "latent" (expression) is about. From my daughter's sage anecdotal claims about Cancer, it seems that something like 7

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

On 8/12/17 9:49 AM, ┣glen┫ wrote: This paragraph (for whatever reason) makes progress toward my counter-argument AGAINST both Monod-via-Grant and Wagner-via-Jenny. While it may be true that mutation is necessary for innovation, it's insufficient to claim that innovation comes only through

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

Glen, Actually, I think you are probably right about crossovers! I can see how innovation can be attributed to them too. Thanks for pointing that out, Glen. (Had crossovers been discovered in '72 when Monod wrote his book?) But that is because crossovers, too, like mutations, are stochastic.

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the genome. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13369-015-1869-5 From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of ┣glen┫ <geprope...@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2017 10:14:20 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Gro

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

Exactly. And even though we're conflating the model of evolution with the real thing, I find it difficult to believe the "space" operated on by evolution is entirely convex or even connected. So, (point) mutation alone may *never* reach some regions, regardless of infinite individuals,

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

etry or shift detectors could be important. (Here it is just 1 dimensional.) Marcus From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of ┣glen┫ <geprope...@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2017 9:49:41 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

This paragraph (for whatever reason) makes progress toward my counter-argument AGAINST both Monod-via-Grant and Wagner-via-Jenny. While it may be true that mutation is necessary for innovation, it's insufficient to claim that innovation comes only through mutation. Imagine two point mutations

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

Nick - Thanks for allowing me to sling irresponsible insults at you with impunity. It has been VERY helpful to my recovery. You might consider opening a clinic. One of my favorite authors, Chuck Palahnuik, wrote a protaganist who visits his mother in a dementia/alzheimer's ward every

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2017 12:05 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeter

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

Nick - ... continued What is presented to the world by the epigenetic system is not mutations but “hypotheses” about ways to live. And presumably epigenetic systems are shaped by natural selection to produce more or less plausible hypotheses. And what is the "hypothesis

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

PM *To:* The Friday > Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> *Subject:* > Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate> > Nick - >> I am very glad to note that you are recovering and your scrappiness >> is properly returning!>> *

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

ogy Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 1:56 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] rando

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

Nick - I am very glad to note that you are recovering and your scrappiness is properly returning! */[NST==>The best cardio rehab is for you-guys to keep annoying me. Thanks for that. <==nst] /* You might check with your cardiologist on this one, I'm not sure a rise in BP is the same as

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

et/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2017 11:01 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate Nick -

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

/home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/> *From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Jenny Quillien *Sent:* Wednesday, August 09, 2017 12:21 PM *To:* friam@redfish.com *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate Totally agree. Maybe a few

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

k University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Jenny Quillien Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2017 12:21 PM To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate Tot

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

me.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Jenny Quillien Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2017 12:21 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate Totally agree. Maybe a few of us can read the Wagener

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate Maybe you're looking for the term "Markovian"? http://mathworld.wolfram.com/MarkovProcess.html On 08/09/2017 07:47 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > F

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

I think Wagner and Monod agree, actually. If I extrapolate what Jenny said Wagner said, *mutation's* randomness is a statement of ignorance, presumably about where innovation comes from in biological evolution. So, both Monod and Wagner would say innovation comes from mutation. On

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

Steve, According to Jacques Monod, chance mutations are the /only /form of innovation in living systems. On p. 112 of his book "Chance and Necessity" he says "...since they [chance mutations] constitute the /only/ possible source of modifications in the genetic text,...it necessarily

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

The random + current thing sounds like a Markov process. If the next value is independent of the current value then it's random. If it depends on the current value and no previous values it's Markov of order 1. If it depends only on the current value and the one before and none before that,

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

Totally agree. Maybe a few of us can read the Wagener book (apparently he shows up at the Santa Fe institute from time to time as an external something or other) and see what we can do with the ideas. I'll be in Amsterdam but can follow e-mail threads to skype. Jenny On 8/9/2017 10:01

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

Jenny - What a powerful quote: /Natural selection can //preserve//innovations, but it cannot create them./ In my own maunderings about the (continued?) relevance of Free Markets and Capitalism, it has occurred to me that the value of said Free Markets may well be restricted to the

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

Nick, Re: your queston about stochastic processes Yes, your specific description "AND its last value" is what most uses of "stochastic process" imply. But, technically all that is required to be a "stochastic process" is that each next step in the process is unpredictable, whether or not

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

Maybe you're looking for the term "Markovian"? http://mathworld.wolfram.com/MarkovProcess.html On 08/09/2017 07:47 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > First. I had always supposed that a stochastic process was one whose value > was determined by two factors, a random factor AND it's last value. So

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

An excellent foray into such a topic is /Arrival of the Fittest: how nature innovates/ by Andreas Wagner. From the Preface: the power of natural selection is beyond dispute, but this power has limits. Natural selection can /preserve/ innovations, but it cannot create them. And calling the

Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

Ah, good to see you nick. How fairs you? On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 8:47 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Hi everybody, > > > > Thanks for your patience as I emerge (hopefully) from post-surgical fog. > > > > I figured I best start my own thread rather than gum up yours. > > >

[FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

Hi everybody, Thanks for your patience as I emerge (hopefully) from post-surgical fog. I figured I best start my own thread rather than gum up yours. First. I had always supposed that a stochastic process was one whose value was determined by two factors, a random factor AND it's