On 10 Sep 2007 10:12:27 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:
David wrote:
In other words, if a poster identifies himself with a .com address of
a legit company say a bank in Hong Kong then I will be happy to help
if I can. It's when the .com is a generic ISP such as Gmail or Yahoo
that I
] On
Behalf Of Clark Morris
Sent: 28. syyskuuta 2007 20:56
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
As a contractor I prefer not to have
anything I say associated with the client
What he said PLUS there are several contributors either between jobs or
retired who don't have a company ID.
Bill
From: Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking
What he said PLUS there are several contributors either between jobs
I resemble that remark!
Just because you don't use a corporate account, doesn't mean you should not
contribute.
There is only ONE List-Serve that I know of which requires you to use a
corporate e-mail to contribute.
And, that
In a message dated 9/12/2007 6:22:29 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
There is only ONE List-Serve that I know of which requires you to use a
corporate e-mail to contribute.
And, that is ISV-Costs (run by John Anderson of IBM Canada).
So, I never joined because my
: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
...
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http
] On
Behalf Of Bill Wilkie
Sent: 12 September 2007 11:52
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
What he said PLUS there are several contributors either between jobs or
retired who don't have a company ID.
Bill
From: Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply
Not to mention us unwashed unemployed
Ted MacNEIL wrote:
What he said!
Please remember that a lot of us work for companies who forbid our use of
company email addresses to post on public forums.
-
Too busy driving to stop for
Here's one that I remember reading a while back:
http://www.cio.com/article/131500/Eight_of_the_Worst_Spreadsheet_Blunder
s
The article itself even has an amusing error in blunder #3, entitled
Fannie Mae Discovers $1.3 Billion Honest Mistake. They quote from PC
World:
'Fannie Mae, which
Howard,
That is the funny thing... The customers is in Europa and sadly, they
are unhappy too, not because the mainframe is moving to the US, but
because the salesman is fluent Nordic / Polish / English / Spanish, but
the moment he has to phone the helpdesk for support on his credit card
Hello Herbie,
Please remember that a lot of us work for companies who forbid our use of
company email addresses to post on public forums.
Which is why this mail is from a .hotmail.com address.
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 18:12:14 +0100, Van Dalsen, Herbie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
David,
I half
What he said!
Please remember that a lot of us work for companies who forbid our use of
company email addresses to post on public forums.
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access
That's funny. My company forbids me from using anything other than my
company email address !!
Please remember that a lot of us work for companies who forbid our use
of company email addresses to post on public forums.
-
That's funny. My company forbids me from using anything other than my company
email address !!
That (officially, or unofficially) makes you a spokesman.
My former company only wanted corporate communications (or legal) to be
spokesmen.
In your case, there are a TON of legal issues!
-
Too
I'm in that category.
But that's not why I'm always civil.
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of FRASER, Brian
Sent: 12. syyskuuta 2007 5:50
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking
PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
Sent: 12. syyskuuta 2007 5:56
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
That's funny. My company forbids me from using anything other than my
company email address !!
That (officially, or unofficially) makes you
-
From: Dean Kent [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 6:47 AM
Subject: Re: The death of the mainframe community, was: The future of IBM
Mainframes [just thinking]
- Original Message -
From: Mark Post [EMAIL
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of John P Baker
[ snip ]
I believe that a good systems programmer must have the
ability to maintain a well-ordered and logical mindset. Some
20 years ago an article in Computerworld noted that
high-level
O'Brien, David W. (NIH/CIT) [C] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ah, Consultant which puts you in amongst those who would benefit if all
IT work were outsourced.
It may not be my business but it helps to know which side of the
economic argument you're on.
From my perspective we in the developed world are
O'Brien, David W. (NIH/CIT) [C] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
... we in the developed world are in an economic war...
Aiding them is not in our economic self interest...
For my part, I believe a boycott is in order.
Every individual is in an economic war with every other individual on earth
It sounds like the thread is changing towards outsourcing again?
Why don't we look at the reason for outsourcing?
I see 2 major reasons...
1. The investor's greed to earn the max on his investment...
2. The Government of the country from which things are being outsourced,
to create an
Tom wrote:
Very few consultants (big 'C' or little 'c') from the U.S. would benefit from
outsourcing in my experience. A few of the high-volume posters on this list
might, but they are exceptions not the rule. Most consultants work within
their own country and often tend to stay within their
of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
O'Brien, David W. (NIH/CIT) [C] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ah, Consultant which puts you in amongst those who would benefit if all
IT work were outsourced.
It may not be my business but it helps to know which side of the
economic argument you're on.
From my perspective
John P Baker wrote on 09/09/2007 10:34:11 PM:
I concur, but feel that you do not adequately stress the importance of
curiosity.
That, coupled with extreme laziness. ;-)
If you have a work harder mentality, you'll never make it as a sysprog. A
work smarter person is the type who simplifies,
David,
Well at least you don't have to read Anton Britz's email - he uses gmail...
And I bet all the people China that use the local equivalents of hotmail and
yahoo are glad you will still read their posts.
Ron
say a bank in Hong Kong then I will be happy to help if I can. It's
when the
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 08:46:12 -0500 Mark L. Wheeler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
:John P Baker wrote on 09/09/2007 10:34:11 PM:
: I concur, but feel that you do not adequately stress the importance of
: curiosity.
:That, coupled with extreme laziness. ;-)
:If you have a work harder mentality,
Binyamin Dissen wrote:
snip
While I was at Western Electric, I eventually worked myself down to a few
hours a week - I automated as much as possible.
snip
And then some management type person started wondering why you weren't
always busy.
--
Mark Jacobs
Time Customer Service
Tampa, FL
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Mark Jacobs
Binyamin Dissen wrote:
snip
While I was at Western Electric, I eventually worked myself
down to a
few hours a week - I automated as much as possible.
snip
And then some management type person
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 10:05:39 -0400 Mark Jacobs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
:Binyamin Dissen wrote:
:
:snip
: While I was at Western Electric, I eventually worked myself down to a few
: hours a week - I automated as much as possible.
:And then some management type person started wondering why you
On 9 Sep 2007 15:15:45 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Tech support should answer ANY question asked of it.
But IBM-Main is not some sort of commercial, for-pay technical support
organization. *No one* comes to this list with some sort of legal,
commercial or moral _right_ to assistance.
On 10
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Eric Chevalier
On 9 Sep 2007 15:15:45 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Tech support should answer ANY question asked of it.
But IBM-Main is not some sort of commercial, for-pay
technical support organization.
I too, am a consultant of sort, but not for outsourcing, My client wants me
in their building to babysit their systems. I do not use their email address
because all of this traffic floods the blackberry I have to carry, and
because sometimes, I ask for information or offer information that is NOT
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 09:02:19 EDT, IBM Mainframe Discussion List wrote:
O'Brien, David W. (NIH/CIT) [C] wrote:
... we in the developed world are in an economic war...
Aiding them is not in our economic self interest...
For my part, I believe a boycott is in order.
Every individual is in an
--snip--
Tech support should answer ANY question asked of it.
But IBM-Main is not some sort of commercial, for-pay technical support
organization. *No one* comes to this list with some sort of legal,
commercial or moral _right_ to
David wrote:
In other words, if a poster identifies himself with a .com address of
a legit company say a bank in Hong Kong then I will be happy to help
if I can. It's when the .com is a generic ISP such as Gmail or Yahoo
that I start to question who it is asking for help. They can RTFM.
David,
I
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 09:16:21 -0400, David W. O'Brien wrote:
It's when the .com is a generic ISP such as Gmail or Yahoo
that I start to question who it is asking for help. They can RTFM.
I do RTFM. I've been involved with this group for many years. When I left
Wayne State seven
Tom,
You are a frequent poster to this list and my comments were certainly not
directed at you. I am sorry you seem to have taken my remarks personally.
The above also applies to any other frequent poster to this group who give
more than they receive.
Regards,
Dave O'Brien
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:30:10 -0500, Tom Marchant m42tom-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 09:16:21 -0400, David W. O'Brien wrote:
When I left Wayne State seven years ago I got an email address that would
survive any future job changes.
Wayne State in Nebraska?
On 10 Sep 2007 06:04:53 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:
Why don't we look at the reason for outsourcing?
I see 2 major reasons...
1. The investor's greed to earn the max on his investment...
2. The Government of the country from which things are being outsourced,
to create an
On 8 Sep 2007 04:58:03 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:
No, I see it as an abrogation of corporate governance.
Customers that once demanded 5 nines (or better) of their IT
department(s) now accept anything that reduces their bottom line.
I am now less inclined to perpetuate the
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Howard Brazee
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 3:51 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On 8 Sep 2007 04:58:03 -0700
@BAMA.UA.EDU
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:51:23 -0600
On 8 Sep 2007 04:58:03 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:
No, I see it as an abrogation of corporate governance.
Customers that once demanded 5 nines (or better
But now they think of computers as toys that children use.
For years, programming was considered a skill (or an art).
The, visi-calc (and successors) came out.
I've seen many a non-programming type (secretaries, VP's, accountants, and
other usual suspects) build spreadsheets and assume, that
Mainframes [just thinking]
Howard:
You make an interesting point. I was told by a friend that his
grandson,
who is about 11, does the same thing I do. At the time, I was a
Consulting
SSE in Worldwide Support with HDS.
Bill
If a person is not prepared to register to the
list with his company email address, it just tells me that probably 99% of the
time he will not pass the requirements sometimes found at the bottom of
emails...
That bias is not necessarily true.
I use a YAHOO account for two reasons:
1. When I was
---snip---
On the other hand, we had Program Logic Manuals and microfiche. I spent
many hours reading both so that I could understand the code that I was
trying to interface to. In the process I gained a lot of insight into
the workings of the system. I
Steve Comstock [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thought about it. A few years ago I visited Hursley, England, and
spoke with the IBM'er in charge of training for Asia. He told me
that ed centers there generally charge $25 per student day and
make a profit. I can't afford to work that cheap, I'm afraid.
Minimum
On Sun, 9 Sep 2007 11:10:39 -0500, Rick Fochtman wrote:
I maintain that a good sysprog stands on a tripod. First comes formal
training; it's not the cure-all but it gives a foundation to build upon.
Experience, including the experience of searching manuals for relevant
documentation, is the
On Sep 9, 2007, at 12:34 PM, Tom Schmidt wrote:
-SDNIP--
I partially disagree -- a good sysprog needs four legs, not just
the three you
mentioned. The fourth leg is a very strong innate curiousity.
Without that,
you may spend a lot of money, time and patience
Of course had this person known about this list and queried here using his AOL
or Comcast or GMAIL ID, he might never have been found out. Which brings me
back to the question - Do we offer free tech support to those unwilling to read
the manual? Or worse pass themselves off as competent to
Do we offer free tech support to those unwilling to read the manual? Or worse
pass themselves off as competent to organizations devoted to outsourcing OUR
jobs?
You still don't get it!
If you don't like outsourcing, or the low wage policies, then those need to
be addressed through political
Charter.net? and just who do you represent?
From: Gerhard Adam [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sun 9/9/2007 6:15 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Do we offer free tech support to those unwilling to read
Charter.net? and just who do you represent?
Who do I represent?
Well, not that it's really any of your business, but I'm a consultant with 35+
years as a MVS/zOS systems programmer.
I don't believe there's any reason why I need to justify the use of a
particular ISP to you. However if you
Ah, Consultant which puts you in amongst those who would benefit if all IT work
were outsourced.
It may not be my business but it helps to know which side of the economic
argument you're on.
From my perspective we in the developed world are in an economic war with
India and China as well as
Ah, Consultant which puts you in amongst those who would benefit if all IT
work were outsourced.
It may not be my business but it helps to know which side of the economic
argument you're on.
I can't quite believe that you could truly be that naive. However I do see
your agenda, so there's
On Sun, Sep 9, 2007 at 7:16 PM, in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED], O'Brien, David
W. (NIH/CIT) [C] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ah, Consultant which puts you in amongst those who would benefit if all IT
work were outsourced.
You seem to be saying that people can't look beyond their own short-term
On Sep 9, 2007, at 5:06 PM, O'Brien, David W. (NIH/CIT) [C] wrote:
Of course had this person known about this list and queried here
using his AOL or Comcast or GMAIL ID, he might never have been
found out. Which brings me back to the question - Do we offer free
tech support to those
I'll grant that point. Without a basic curiousity, no sysprog is worth
his salt.
--snip---
On Sun, 9 Sep 2007 11:10:39 -0500, Rick Fochtman wrote:
I maintain that a good sysprog stands on a tripod. First comes formal
training; it's not the
In a message dated 9/9/2007 5:07:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Do we offer free tech support to those unwilling to read the manual? Or
worse pass themselves off as competent to organizations devoted to outsourcing
OUR jobs? If the poster is unwilling to
I concur, but feel that you do not adequately stress the importance of
curiosity.
I suggest that a very strong innate curiosity is insufficient. A good
systems programmer must have a virtually insatiable curiosity. I sometimes
wonder whether any wholly sane individual would seek to go into the
I suggest that a very strong innate curiosity is insufficient. A good
systems programmer must have a virtually insatiable curiosity. I sometimes
wonder whether any wholly sane individual would seek to go into the field of
systems programming.
OK ... there's alot of self-motivation that goes
- Original Message -
From: Mark Post [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: The death of the mainframe community, was: The future of IBM
Mainframes [just thinking]
Of course you do. If you
On Sun, 9 Sep 2007 19:16:32 -0400, O'Brien, David W. (NIH/CIT) [C] wrote:
Ah, Consultant which puts you in amongst those who would benefit if all IT
work were outsourced.
It may not be my business but it helps to know which side of the economic
argument you're on.
From where I sit he is on
I'm certainly not at a level of knowledge of z/OS that I would like to
be. I'm often in awe at how much people on this and other lists know.
I like though that there is still a lot of cool stuff to learn.
I started with IBM mainframes in 1982 when I was at the university. I
was a music major
(There was also an adjacent room with a machine they called a Widget and was
used by CS 101 students. No idea what that was, but I think something by IBM.)
WIDJET.
Waterloo Interactive Debug and Job Entry Terminal.
Written by the University of Waterloo.
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!
On Sat, 2007-09-08 at 12:40 +0200, Lindy Mayfield wrote:
One point I'm making is that it took me years and a lot of difficult
study to grow to my current level. Yet there are many people now being
handed an MVS job to do and told to get to it.
Do others see this as a challenge?
No, I see
A PDP-11! Wow, if I only knew then...
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
Sent: 8. syyskuuta 2007 14:35
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
(There was also
Lindy Mayfield wrote:
[snip]
I belong now to a couple of Yahoo Groups which is made up of mostly
people new to z/OS, and I help out and answer questions when I can. If
I'm not mistaken, by the names, most of the people are from India.
It is not uncommon to see posts like this:
quote
Hi,
I
Maybe we should not answer those questions. The outsourced work went to a
place where lower wages are paid. If they can not perform the work, things
will fail any maybe get insourced. Or sourced to a competent firm. By
answering the question you are now a free resource to the outsourcer.
Refer
.
I see both sides.
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kenneth E Tomiak
Sent: 8. syyskuuta 2007 18:15
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Maybe we should not answer those
On 8 Sep 2007 03:40:56 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
(Message-ID:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Lindy Mayfield) wrote:
One point I'm making is that it took me years and a lot of
difficult
study to grow to my current level. Yet there are many
people now being
handed an MVS job to
2007 19:42
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
I have nothing against newbies who want to learn. In
fact, I love to teach. However, I am not willing to help a
*company* that refuses to hire the expertise they need,
again regardless
Ed,
Then he could add an irritating and stupid filter as well...
Ron
Steve has the right idea maybe it should be carried one step further.
Just as an idea, how about if the list owner can insert some
identifier to the email so that we can filter on say raw recruit in
the subject line. The
I have nothing against newbies who want to learn. In
fact, I love to teach. However, I am not willing to help a
*company* that refuses to hire the expertise they need,
again regardless of location. I see those companies as the
root of the problem.
This whole thread borders on the
Maybe we should not answer those questions.
I suggested that a long time ago, and was run through the wringer because of it.
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
There is nothing that can be provided here that isn't already provided
in
numerous sources, so the notion that this is a unique source of
information
is ludicrous. While answering a question may shorten the path
When I started out an IBM manual was worth its weight in
gold almost.
Now the problem is wading through all the information. It can be
overwhelming. Also experience (someone mentioned a mentor) is hard to
find in books.
I agree that a mentor can be a tremendous asset, however let's not
On 8 Sep 2007 11:50:26 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
(Message-ID:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gerhard Adam) wrote:
As for being allowed to learn ... There has NEVER been
more information available, nor more readily available
than today. There is absolutely no excuse for anyone
Your reply to my last two paragraphs significantly
skews my position.
My comments weren't specifically directed to your statements, but rather to the
general sense that seems to permeate this thread.
That is the kind of education that is the responsibility of the companies;
it's almost
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Maybe we should not answer those questions.
I suggested that a long time ago, and was run through the
wringer because of it.
-
Each
I was fortunate when I was promoted to a sysprog job back in 1978 to have a
boss who was a very good mentor. Sometimes, when he wanted me to do a
project that he knew I didn't have any experience in, he would call me into
his office. He would show me the book I needed and the relevant
On Sat, 8 Sep 2007 16:43:44 -0400, Gerhard Adam wrote:
. In addition, the opportunity to learn from hands on was
significantly more restricted than it is today.
On the other hand, we had Program Logic Manuals and microfiche. I spent
many hours reading both so that I could understand the
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Marchant
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 6:11 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On Sat, 8 Sep 2007 16:43:44 -0400, Gerhard
83 matches
Mail list logo
