Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 06:39:27PM +0100, mn wrote:
> On 12.01.17 03:23, Scott Kostyshak wrote:

> No, I did not.
> I thought that this was already handled in the recent thread about "LyX
> 2.2 slowness" in general.
> If is indeed not a duplicate I will add a ticket.

I don't actually know. I guess we should try to remember to check recent
master or when 2.3 is released and see if the issue is fixed.

Scott


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Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[mn]

On 12.01.17 03:23, Scott Kostyshak wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 06:24:19PM +0100, mn wrote:
>> On 04.12.16 17:58, Scott Kostyshak wrote:
>>> On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 05:38:14PM +0100, mn wrote:
>>>
 Something like an MWE is attached.
 Here, it triggers slowness on loading the file into a fresh LyX
session.
>>
>>> I cannot reproduce with just your example. But if I select all and then
>>> paste 10 times, then I can get some slowness with cursor movement,
>>> selection and scrolling.
>>
>> Pasting this paragraph 10 times is enough to make LyX really glacial.

>
> Did you make a trac ticket for the above example? It might be good so
> that we don't forget about it.
>

No, I did not.
I thought that this was already handled in the recent thread about "LyX
2.2 slowness" in general.
If is indeed not a duplicate I will add a ticket.

greetings
Mike

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 06:24:19PM +0100, mn wrote:
> On 04.12.16 17:58, Scott Kostyshak wrote:
> > On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 05:38:14PM +0100, mn wrote:
> > 
> >> Something like an MWE is attached.
> >> Here, it triggers slowness on loading the file into a fresh LyX session.
> 
> > I cannot reproduce with just your example. But if I select all and then
> > paste 10 times, then I can get some slowness with cursor movement,
> > selection and scrolling.
> 
> Pasting this paragraph 10 times is enough to make LyX really glacial.

Hi mn,

Did you make a trac ticket for the above example? It might be good so
that we don't forget about it.

Scott


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Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 09/12/2016 à 16:04, mn a écrit :

Right now I guess there were several reasons we arrived at the current
situation. Either very good or congruent reasons or just by chance.
But I also guess that no-one has tested or adjusted all the color options:

-- for people with (color-)vision abnormalities
-- for consistency of metaphors and hierarchies
-- the balance of beauty and usability (they are quite ugly, but I
actually do not care about this much since I found them to be 'working'
up until now)


I have tried once or twice to move in this direction, but there is a 
strong resistance on the list :) I guess if we made it easy to package 
color schemes, we could ship with a different one and keep the "classic" 
one for die hards. This is not difficult, but there is some background 
work to make it work. Unfortunately, these days I have other priorities, 
even LyX-wise.



The above is not meant as a complaint.
Nor am I a qualified expert for color-vision or cognitive ergonomics to
remedy this observation.
https://wiki.lyx.org/Tips/ColorSchemes and another website list several
"themes" that are arbitrary, cool, or likeable.


To be frank, I even did not know that we had this page on our wiki!

I would be willing to lend a hand to someone trying to implement the 
needed machinery for color themes in LyX. What is needed is

- a new command \color_theme, and some UI in preferences to go with it
- a way to read these colors (trivial AFAICS)
- a way to dump a color theme from a user's working LyX (not difficult)
- a way to declare that a color is the same as another one like
  \set_color "latex" "#A6E22E"
  \set_color "preview" "@latex"
 This should be mostly easy, but the UI will require some work
- some UI to declare a transparent color, and code in LyX to make sure 
that it works as intended (we already have Color_none for that)



Might it be better than the current options
– to allow for an option of differing text-background color for foreign
languages, (This is arguably very likely to conflict with all the other
background choices under Look )
– and make this switchable via a shortcut and toolbar toggle?


We could make this work together with the "show paragraph end" option (I 
do not like adding options :)



The quick toggle is presumably easiest and most important, given that
all those color options are daunting already.


Yes.


Note that one can see whether the language at cursor position is
different from default by looking at the status bar.


I didn't think of that within this scope.
This is indeed helpful but very limited.
Cursor position is unable to tell me the (is it correct?) extent of the
language declaration.


Yes.

JMarc

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[mn]

On 09.12.16 13:25, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
> Le 09/12/2016 à 12:59, mn a écrit :
>> This setting dwells under a different Settings group named Look?
>> There I can only change the color of this solid line, not its thickness
>> or position.
>> And in my eyes the line itself is the problem, not its color.
> 
> I understand your arguments, but this is all we have now. I am not 
> completely sure of what a good UI (visible but not obnoxious) would be.
> 

Neither am I.
Visibility and aesthetics are clashing frequently. Not just in LyX.
Right now I guess there were several reasons we arrived at the current
situation. Either very good or congruent reasons or just by chance.
But I also guess that no-one has tested or adjusted all the color options:

-- for people with (color-)vision abnormalities
-- for consistency of metaphors and hierarchies
-- the balance of beauty and usability (they are quite ugly, but I
actually do not care about this much since I found them to be 'working'
up until now)

The above is not meant as a complaint.
Nor am I a qualified expert for color-vision or cognitive ergonomics to
remedy this observation.
https://wiki.lyx.org/Tips/ColorSchemes and another website list several
"themes" that are arbitrary, cool, or likeable.
And I agree that this might be justifiably of some lower importance.


on topic:
Among others, I see the following scenarios:

a) Entering the text, manually or via c: the line is a hassle, and
helpful at the same time.

b) Proof-reading the content: the line is hassle.

c) Proof-reading for compilation or formatting errors and tweaks: the
line is essential.


Note that c and much more so b for me are the most important and
outstanding reasons that LyX is superior to any other TeX editor out there.

Might it be better than the current options
– to allow for an option of differing text-background color for foreign
languages, (This is arguably very likely to conflict with all the other
background choices under Look )
– and make this switchable via a shortcut and toolbar toggle?

The quick toggle is presumably easiest and most important, given that
all those color options are daunting already.

> Note that one can see whether the language at cursor position is 
> different from default by looking at the status bar.
> 

I didn't think of that within this scope.
This is indeed helpful but very limited.
Cursor position is unable to tell me the (is it correct?) extent of the
language declaration.

Mike

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 09/12/2016 à 12:59, mn a écrit :

This setting dwells under a different Settings group named Look?
There I can only change the color of this solid line, not its thickness
or position.
And in my eyes the line itself is the problem, not its color.


I understand your arguments, but this is all we have now. I am not 
completely sure of what a good UI (visible but not obnoxious) would be.


Note that one can see whether the language at cursor position is 
different from default by looking at the status bar.


JMarc

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[mn]

On 08.12.16 16:31, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
> Le 08/12/2016 à 16:21, mn a écrit :
>> Try to select what comes after the first colon (to the left) up until
>> the second colon in the second line. Or in other words: what is just
>> between those two.
>> The selection will jump to the beginning of the first line (far right).
>> This was not intended.
> 
> If I understand correctly, this is bug #10424, which will be fixed in 2.2.3.
> 

Oh. Looks like it indeed.
Nice.

Mike

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[mn]

On 08.12.16 16:27, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
> Le 08/12/2016 à 16:20, mn a écrit :
>> Yes. But this means I loose the ability to immediately see whether or
>> not this part was correctly assigned to a given language.
>> I think there might be a better solution than to disable _a_ marking
>> completely. A grey bar in the background?
> 
> You can freely change the color of this underline, which is ugly by default.
> 

This setting dwells under a different Settings group named Look?
There I can only change the color of this solid line, not its thickness
or position.
And in my eyes the line itself is the problem, not its color.

Mike

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 08/12/2016 à 16:21, mn a écrit :

Try to select what comes after the first colon (to the left) up until
the second colon in the second line. Or in other words: what is just
between those two.
The selection will jump to the beginning of the first line (far right).
This was not intended.


If I understand correctly, this is bug #10424, which will be fixed in 2.2.3.

JMarc

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 08/12/2016 à 16:20, mn a écrit :

Yes. But this means I loose the ability to immediately see whether or
not this part was correctly assigned to a given language.
I think there might be a better solution than to disable _a_ marking
completely. A grey bar in the background?


You can freely change the color of this underline, which is ugly by default.

JMarc

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 08/12/2016 à 16:20, mn a écrit :

Yes. But this means I loose the ability to immediately see whether or
not this part was correctly assigned to a given language.
I think there might be a better solution than to disable _a_ marking
completely. A grey bar in the background?


You can freely change the color of this underline, which is ugly by default.

JMarc

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[mn]

On 08.12.16 15:45, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
> Le 08/12/2016 à 12:55, mn a écrit :
>> Hm, I wonder if this is also effecting selecting rtl-text with the mouse.
>> Right now it drives me crazy how it behaves once the text is marked as
>> containig Hebrew and spans more than one row in the editor display.
>> Cursor mode visual and logical seem to be in conflict here?
> 
> Sorry, I am not sure what you mean. What is the observed behavior and 
> what is the desired one?
> 
> Is this with logical or visual cursor movement?
> 
> I have to say that we really lack a someone who cares about bidi text. I 
> rewrote large parts (because I had to) in 2.2, but there is still a lot 
> of weird code that nobody dares to even touch.

See the attached file.
Set your editor window size or zoom-level in such a way so that the
first two big colon-like characters are on separate lines.
(You may have to use something like Liberation as ScreenFont to
recognize them)
This is marked as Hebrew so it is rtl.
Try to select what comes after the first colon (to the left) up until
the second colon in the second line. Or in other words: what is just
between those two.
The selection will jump to the beginning of the first line (far right).
This was not intended.

Cursor movement was set to visual.
Setting it to logical does not improve the situation.

Mike


Heb-select.lyx
Description: application/lyx

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[mn]

On 08.12.16 15:41, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
> Le 08/12/2016 à 15:23, mn a écrit :
>> That means: default document language is, say, English and then Hebrew
>> is added in afterwards.
>> Apart from the slight annoyance mentioned above it becomes very hard to
>> actually type something with nikuds, since the
>> "foreign-language-underline" (sorry, I do not know how it is called
>> officially or in the sources) gets in the way.
> 
> You cn disable this underline in preferences (look in Language Settings).
> 

Yes. But this means I loose the ability to immediately see whether or
not this part was correctly assigned to a given language.
I think there might be a better solution than to disable _a_ marking
completely. A grey bar in the background?

>> On a side note: I would also appreciate something to quickly change the
>> editor's zoom level. Is there a short-cut or can I define one?
> 
> Ctrl+/Ctrl- or Ctrl with mouse wheel.
> 

As I said:
>> OS-wide display-zoom is soon too blurry to be practical.

That would mean that Ctrl-Mousewheel behavior you mentioned, on Mac.

But Cmd +/- in LyX is what I was looking for.
Thx.

Mike

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 08/12/2016 à 12:55, mn a écrit :

Hm, I wonder if this is also effecting selecting rtl-text with the mouse.
Right now it drives me crazy how it behaves once the text is marked as
containig Hebrew and spans more than one row in the editor display.
Cursor mode visual and logical seem to be in conflict here?


Sorry, I am not sure what you mean. What is the observed behavior and 
what is the desired one?


Is this with logical or visual cursor movement?

I have to say that we really lack a someone who cares about bidi text. I 
rewrote large parts (because I had to) in 2.2, but there is still a lot 
of weird code that nobody dares to even touch.


JMarc

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 08/12/2016 à 15:41, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes a écrit :

On a side note: I would also appreciate something to quickly change the
editor's zoom level. Is there a short-cut or can I define one?


Ctrl+/Ctrl- or Ctrl with mouse wheel.


Sorry, you are a mac user. Use Command instead of Ctrl.

JMarc

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 08/12/2016 à 15:23, mn a écrit :

That means: default document language is, say, English and then Hebrew
is added in afterwards.
Apart from the slight annoyance mentioned above it becomes very hard to
actually type something with nikuds, since the
"foreign-language-underline" (sorry, I do not know how it is called
officially or in the sources) gets in the way.


You cn disable this underline in preferences (look in Language Settings).


On a side note: I would also appreciate something to quickly change the
editor's zoom level. Is there a short-cut or can I define one?


Ctrl+/Ctrl- or Ctrl with mouse wheel.

JMarc

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[mn]

On 07.12.16 23:53, Scott Kostyshak wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 10:35:06PM +0100, Cor Blom wrote:
>> Op 03-12-16 om 22:51 schreef Scott Kostyshak:
 The other thing is that on screen, when I type a rtl text in a ltr
 documents, I have to mark that word as e.g. Hebrew before the sequence is
 right. I would be nice to have that done automatically. Xetex does it 
 right,
 even if it is not marked as rtl. What would be great is an option to set 
 not
 only a default rtl font, but also a default rtl language, that is set
 automatically by lyx in the document when rtl text is entered (and in 
 Hebrew
 Lyx of course vice versa).
>>
>>> I don't understand, but that's probably because I know nothing about
>>> RTL or fonts. You might want to make a trac ticket for this and describe
>>> the feature in more detail. I'm guessing setting the component of the
>>> ticket to "bidi" is best.
>>
>> Ticket #10514
> 
> Thanks for remembering to do this, even though you've been busy! I read
> the ticket and I now understand (reading your original description I
> realize it was clear now, I'm just a little slow sometimes...).

Hm, I wonder if this is also effecting selecting rtl-text with the mouse.
Right now it drives me crazy how it behaves once the text is marked as
containig Hebrew and spans more than one row in the editor display.
Cursor mode visual and logical seem to be in conflict here?


Mike

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 10:35:06PM +0100, Cor Blom wrote:
> Op 03-12-16 om 22:51 schreef Scott Kostyshak:
> > > The other thing is that on screen, when I type a rtl text in a ltr
> > > documents, I have to mark that word as e.g. Hebrew before the sequence is
> > > right. I would be nice to have that done automatically. Xetex does it 
> > > right,
> > > even if it is not marked as rtl. What would be great is an option to set 
> > > not
> > > only a default rtl font, but also a default rtl language, that is set
> > > automatically by lyx in the document when rtl text is entered (and in 
> > > Hebrew
> > > Lyx of course vice versa).
> 
> > I don't understand, but that's probably because I know nothing about
> > RTL or fonts. You might want to make a trac ticket for this and describe
> > the feature in more detail. I'm guessing setting the component of the
> > ticket to "bidi" is best.
> 
> Ticket #10514

Thanks for remembering to do this, even though you've been busy! I read
the ticket and I now understand (reading your original description I
realize it was clear now, I'm just a little slow sometimes...).

Scott


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Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Cor Blom]

Op 03-12-16 om 22:51 schreef Scott Kostyshak:

The other thing is that on screen, when I type a rtl text in a ltr
documents, I have to mark that word as e.g. Hebrew before the sequence is
right. I would be nice to have that done automatically. Xetex does it right,
even if it is not marked as rtl. What would be great is an option to set not
only a default rtl font, but also a default rtl language, that is set
automatically by lyx in the document when rtl text is entered (and in Hebrew
Lyx of course vice versa).



I don't understand, but that's probably because I know nothing about
RTL or fonts. You might want to make a trac ticket for this and describe
the feature in more detail. I'm guessing setting the component of the
ticket to "bidi" is best.


Ticket #10514

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 10:04:10PM +0200, Guy Rutenberg wrote:

> XeTeX is by far the best option today to typeset Hebrew and LyX should
> default to it. Culmus-latex and ivritex (the old ways to get Hebrew
> working) are no longer actively maintained as they are inferior in almost
> any sense.
> 
> A while a go I wrote a simple tutorial to get an Hebrew document working
> using LyX and XeTeX.
> 
> https://www.guyrutenberg.com/2015/03/21/creating-a-hebrew-document-in-lyx-2-1-with-xetex/

Thanks for this comment, Guy.

Scott


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Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Guy Rutenberg]

Hi,

On 3 December 2016 at 23:51, Scott Kostyshak  wrote:

> >
> > If I may offer some suggestions... I am not a programmer who can
> implement
> > this, but I use Hebrew in LyX quite often, including ancient Hebrew with
> > everything on it. Xetex is the only one, in my experience, that is really
> > working.
>
> Good to know. I wonder if we should set our Hebrew manuals to XeTeX by
> default.


XeTeX is by far the best option today to typeset Hebrew and LyX should
default to it. Culmus-latex and ivritex (the old ways to get Hebrew
working) are no longer actively maintained as they are inferior in almost
any sense.

A while a go I wrote a simple tutorial to get an Hebrew document working
using LyX and XeTeX.

https://www.guyrutenberg.com/2015/03/21/creating-a-hebrew-document-in-lyx-2-1-with-xetex/

Regards,
Guy

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[mn]

On 04.12.16 17:58, Scott Kostyshak wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 05:38:14PM +0100, mn wrote:
> 
>> Something like an MWE is attached.
>> Here, it triggers slowness on loading the file into a fresh LyX session.

> I cannot reproduce with just your example. But if I select all and then
> paste 10 times, then I can get some slowness with cursor movement,
> selection and scrolling.

Pasting this paragraph 10 times is enough to make LyX really glacial.

> Note that if you have continuous spellcheck enabled and source preview,
> these two things can slow down cursor movement.

Source view is usually closed.
When I tested it with continuous spell-check enabled it is indeed much
much slower than without.
Then again the spell-checkers seem to be quite clueless about what's
written there.
Setting spellchecker to either "aspell" or "native" seems to improve the
situation somewhat but it's hard to quantify which of both options is
better. Regarding speed, both are clearly superior to hunspell, which
slows LyX to an absolute crawl. But aspell and native seem to just
ignore all the hebrew text?
Nothing is marked with both of them enabled, whereas hunspell seems to
mark a lot of the text as somehow incorrect.

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 05:38:14PM +0100, mn wrote:

> Something like an MWE is attached.
> Here, it triggers slowness on loading the file into a fresh LyX session.

Thanks for your persistence and this example!

I cannot reproduce with just your example. But if I select all and then
paste 10 times, then I can get some slowness with cursor movement,
selection and scrolling.

Note that if you have continuous spellcheck enabled and source preview,
these two things can slow down cursor movement.

Scott


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Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[mn]

On 04.12.16 02:50, Scott Kostyshak wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 03, 2016 at 10:26:17PM +0100, mn wrote:
>> On 03.12.16 21:43, Scott Kostyshak wrote:
>>
 BTW:
 Until now I only had simple and short strings entered myself into an
 otherwise empty document.
 Copying this rather complex but still short example into LyX makes it
 quite slow to handle and beachballing a lot. There seems to be a problem
 handling this (script or unicode or whatnot).
>>>
>>> Good to know. Can you give some enumerated simple steps to reproduce?
>>> And where exactly do you see the slow part? (when copying, when
>>> pasting?) I do not see slowness, but I think it's because I
>>> misunderstood. Please do this in a separate email to lyx-devel so we can
>>> separate the conversations.
>>>
>>
>> 1. new document
>> 2. output font set to Xetex/SBL-Hebrew
>> 3. main document language set to English
>> 4. paste Hebrew text
>> beachball
>> 5. set pasted text to language Hebrew
>> beachball
>> 6. paste English text
>> beachball
>> 7. set English text to language English
>> beachball
>> 7. scrolling
>> beachball then quite slow scrolling
>> 8. resize window,
>> short beachball
>> 9. pasting the same English block again
>> beachball
>> 10 pasting English block again
>> beachball or delay (delay is ~ for 2-3 seconds)
>>
>> It seems to occur right after the clipboard buffer gets pasted into the
>> editor buffer / LyX's system.
>> Source of the text was OSHB sword module copied from Alkitab.
>> (i.e. I do not know if that has problems on its own)
>> But it seems to be an unproblematic block of characters in other
>> Mac-applications (speed-wise).
> 
> I can't reproduce on Ubuntu. Stephan, can you reproduce on Mac?
> 

One interesting tidbit:
After copying and pasting Gen 1 in vocalized Hebrew three times into the
document and alternating this with three paragraphs in English:
LyX starts to beachball for >5 seconds (up to a minute) for every action
taken. That is 5 seconds for one cursor movement one character position
to the right for example. Opening LyX's preferences takes around 20
seconds while beachballing.
When a new document tab is then opened and no Hebrew is there, then the
speed is back to normal. For every action taken. Insert as mush latin
characters as you like.
Until you start with Hebrew again.

Something like an MWE is attached.
Here, it triggers slowness on loading the file into a fresh LyX session.

For proper PDF-output you will need the SBL-Hebrew font as specified in
the preamble from here:
https://www.sbl-site.org/educational/BiblicalFonts_SBLHebrew.aspx

greetings
mn






GenXeTeX.lyx
Description: application/lyx

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Cor Blom]

Op 03-12-16 om 23:03 schreef Cor Blom:

Op 03-12-16 om 22:51 schreef Scott Kostyshak:

The fonts are the issue, both screenfonts and document fonts. Lyx
allows for
both to set only one font and many fonts do not support rtl languages
properly. I think what LibreOffice does (and I think Ms Office does the
same) is a way to go: add a separate font setting for RTL languages,
both
for screen font as for the document font.

Ah interesting idea. Where does LibreOffice do this? Attached is a
screenshot of my LO font settings. Is the option there or somewhere
else?


It is under language settings. See attached screenshot.


And if the options to rtl is activated in the format dialogues it 
becomes possible to set separate rtl fonts. E.g. under "Default fonts" 
under "libreOffice Writer", but also in other places where fonts can be set.


Cor

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[mn]

On 03.12.16 22:51, Scott Kostyshak wrote:

>> The fonts are the issue, both screenfonts and document fonts. Lyx allows for
>> both to set only one font and many fonts do not support rtl languages
>> properly. I think what LibreOffice does (and I think Ms Office does the
>> same) is a way to go: add a separate font setting for RTL languages, both
>> for screen font as for the document font.
> 
> Ah interesting idea. Where does LibreOffice do this? Attached is a
> screenshot of my LO font settings. Is the option there or somewhere
> else?

I think this is where it goes:

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Cor Blom]

Op 03-12-16 om 22:51 schreef Scott Kostyshak:

The fonts are the issue, both screenfonts and document fonts. Lyx allows for
both to set only one font and many fonts do not support rtl languages
properly. I think what LibreOffice does (and I think Ms Office does the
same) is a way to go: add a separate font setting for RTL languages, both
for screen font as for the document font.

Ah interesting idea. Where does LibreOffice do this? Attached is a
screenshot of my LO font settings. Is the option there or somewhere
else?


It is under language settings. See attached screenshot.




The other thing is that on screen, when I type a rtl text in a ltr
documents, I have to mark that word as e.g. Hebrew before the sequence is
right. I would be nice to have that done automatically. Xetex does it right,
even if it is not marked as rtl. What would be great is an option to set not
only a default rtl font, but also a default rtl language, that is set
automatically by lyx in the document when rtl text is entered (and in Hebrew
Lyx of course vice versa).

I don't understand, but that's probably because I know nothing about
RTL or fonts. You might want to make a trac ticket for this and describe
the feature in more detail. I'm guessing setting the component of the
ticket to "bidi" is best.


Don't have time for that at the moment, but can do that somewhere in the 
coming week.


Thanks,

Cor

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Cor Blom]

Op 03-12-16 om 22:24 schreef mn:

Where can the polyglossia option be set?
This is not obvious to me.
Under doc-settings>language>language package>custom = polyglossia ?


Yes, I have to admit: this is not obvious. The setting "automatic" works 
for me, it give me polyglossia (although it is not explicitly 
mentioned). It can also be set under general lyx settings.


Cor

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Sat, Dec 03, 2016 at 10:24:54PM +0100, mn wrote:

> > \newfontfamily\hebrewfont[Script=Hebrew]{SBL Hebrew}
> > 
> > For each script a separate font can be set. Options like "Scale" 
> > automatically scales the font so that it fits with the rest.
> 
> That sounds brilliant.

Depending on your document, it seems you might also want similar
commands for \hebrewfonttt and \hebrewfontsf. See
https://www.guyrutenberg.com/2015/03/21/creating-a-hebrew-document-in-lyx-2-1-with-xetex/

Scott


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Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[mn]

On 03.12.16 21:49, Cor Blom wrote:
> Op 03-12-16 om 20:57 schreef mn:
>> This font-switcheroo must go into the preamble, I am guessing now since
>> I am new to Xetex also.
>> But apparently this is not possible within LyX's gui?
> 
> No, it is not. You need polyglossia for that (which can be set in Lyx 
> gui) and something like this in the preamble:
> 

Where can the polyglossia option be set?
This is not obvious to me.
Under doc-settings>language>language package>custom = polyglossia ?

> \newfontfamily\hebrewfont[Script=Hebrew]{SBL Hebrew}
> 
> For each script a separate font can be set. Options like "Scale" 
> automatically scales the font so that it fits with the rest.

That sounds brilliant.

gretings
Mike

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Cor Blom]

Op 03-12-16 om 21:43 schreef Scott Kostyshak:

Mike, I'm CC'ing a few people who have LyX + Hebrew knowledge. Perhaps
one of them is interested in joining this conversation about how we can
improve LyX to make it easier for users of Hebrew.


If I may offer some suggestions... I am not a programmer who can 
implement this, but I use Hebrew in LyX quite often, including ancient 
Hebrew with everything on it. Xetex is the only one, in my experience, 
that is really working.


The fonts are the issue, both screenfonts and document fonts. Lyx allows 
for both to set only one font and many fonts do not support rtl 
languages properly. I think what LibreOffice does (and I think Ms Office 
does the same) is a way to go: add a separate font setting for RTL 
languages, both for screen font as for the document font.


The other thing is that on screen, when I type a rtl text in a ltr 
documents, I have to mark that word as e.g. Hebrew before the sequence 
is right. I would be nice to have that done automatically. Xetex does it 
right, even if it is not marked as rtl. What would be great is an option 
to set not only a default rtl font, but also a default rtl language, 
that is set automatically by lyx in the document when rtl text is 
entered (and in Hebrew Lyx of course vice versa).


This probably needs a more extensive support for polyglossia.

Cor

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Cor Blom]

Op 03-12-16 om 22:06 schreef Scott Kostyshak:

On Sat, Dec 03, 2016 at 09:49:09PM +0100, Cor Blom wrote:

Op 03-12-16 om 20:57 schreef mn:

This font-switcheroo must go into the preamble, I am guessing now since
I am new to Xetex also.
But apparently this is not possible within LyX's gui?


No, it is not. You need polyglossia for that (which can be set in Lyx gui)
and something like this in the preamble:

\newfontfamily\hebrewfont[Script=Hebrew]{SBL Hebrew}

For each script a separate font can be set. Options like "Scale"
automatically scales the font so that it fits with the rest.


Just to make sure I understand this, it means that whenever text
language is set to Hebrew, then the font SBL Hebrew is used?

Scott



Yes.

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Sat, Dec 03, 2016 at 09:49:09PM +0100, Cor Blom wrote:
> Op 03-12-16 om 20:57 schreef mn:
> > This font-switcheroo must go into the preamble, I am guessing now since
> > I am new to Xetex also.
> > But apparently this is not possible within LyX's gui?
> 
> No, it is not. You need polyglossia for that (which can be set in Lyx gui)
> and something like this in the preamble:
> 
> \newfontfamily\hebrewfont[Script=Hebrew]{SBL Hebrew}
> 
> For each script a separate font can be set. Options like "Scale"
> automatically scales the font so that it fits with the rest.

Just to make sure I understand this, it means that whenever text
language is set to Hebrew, then the font SBL Hebrew is used?

Scott


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Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Cor Blom]

Op 03-12-16 om 20:57 schreef mn:

This font-switcheroo must go into the preamble, I am guessing now since
I am new to Xetex also.
But apparently this is not possible within LyX's gui?


No, it is not. You need polyglossia for that (which can be set in Lyx 
gui) and something like this in the preamble:


\newfontfamily\hebrewfont[Script=Hebrew]{SBL Hebrew}

For each script a separate font can be set. Options like "Scale" 
automatically scales the font so that it fits with the rest.


Cor

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Sat, Dec 03, 2016 at 08:57:14PM +0100, mn wrote:
> On 03.12.16 18:49, Scott Kostyshak wrote:

Mike, I'm CC'ing a few people who have LyX + Hebrew knowledge. Perhaps
one of them is interested in joining this conversation about how we can
improve LyX to make it easier for users of Hebrew. If they are, you can
get caught up on this current conversation from the following link:

https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=mid=023ba35b-760c-ae24-b039-64e7ca2b3a16%40gmx.net

> > It compiles for me. See attached.
> >
> 
> In or on what system?

Ubuntu. All I need to do is run the following command:

sudo ./install-tl-ubuntu --hebrew

The script is here:
https://github.com/scottkosty/install-tl-ubuntu

Note the following issue, which I would like to implement to improve
Hebrew support for e.g. Nikud:
https://github.com/scottkosty/install-tl-ubuntu/issues/27

> Also zoom into the pdf a bit and see that Hebrew is bitmapped and not
> vector.

Same here. That is not nice.

> But I thought that it would be easier to find out about why a language
> that is distributed as supported within LyX does not produce any output
> in that language with a full Texlive-install.

I agree it would be nice to have some user-friendly instructions inside
the file. Perhaps inside the Hebrew splash.lyx file, or maybe just any
Hebrew .lyx file.

> > I don't think LuaTeX + Hebrew has ever compiled for me. You used system
> > fonts? Which fonts?
> >
> I tried some combinations of fonts I know or suspect to cover Hebrew
> codepoints:
> Myriad, Adbobe Hebrew, Lucida, Ezra-Sil and SBL-Hebrew
> 
> SBL seems to be the best, followed closely by Ezra.
> Adobe fonts have too many missing glyphs and more so missing combinations.
> 
> Those I had to define as default fonts for the document.
> Luatex then distributes a pattern of capital T and L letters over the
> top part of the page.

When I try with LuaTeX, for me the log says:

  Package polyglossia Warning: Hebrew is not supported with LuaTeX.

I also see messages:

  Language hebrew not found in language.dat.lua

If instead I use babel, I get:

  ! Right-to-Left Support Error: use TeX--XeT or e-TeX engine.

> >> It seems that xetex is the only choice I have right now?
> >
> > XeTeX and pdflatex (although you explained this is not a good option).
> > Does XeTeX output not look good?
> >
> 
> When using Lyx to set the main font for Xetex to SBL-Hebrew I get
> beautiful output for Hebrew and really terrible kerning for the latin
> scripts. See attached file.

Did you set the language to English for that selection?

> (Also this font has 4 missing glyphs again for the latin part…)
> So I want/need another font for Roman scripts (haven't tested greek yet)
> 
> This font-switcheroo must go into the preamble, I am guessing now since
> I am new to Xetex also.
> But apparently this is not possible within LyX's gui?

Ah good question. I think you are correct that in LyX we don't have a
way to do that. I tried to select text and then go to Edit .> Text Style
.> Customize, but I do not see a way to change it to a different system
font there.

> BTW:
> Until now I only had simple and short strings entered myself into an
> otherwise empty document.
> Copying this rather complex but still short example into LyX makes it
> quite slow to handle and beachballing a lot. There seems to be a problem
> handling this (script or unicode or whatnot).

Good to know. Can you give some enumerated simple steps to reproduce?
And where exactly do you see the slow part? (when copying, when
pasting?) I do not see slowness, but I think it's because I
misunderstood. Please do this in a separate email to lyx-devel so we can
separate the conversations.

> I do not know how most of the users depending on Lyx (for Hebrew) get
> started.
> But I think there would be a fair lot of them using Texlive, some on a Mac.
> The wiki covers Windows/Miktex and an old Ubuntu version.
> Installing culmus by hand into the texmf-tree is not only cumbersome but
> greatly discouraging for the average mac-user, I guess?
> So wiki pages for a) Hebrew with standard Texlive Installation and b)
> Hebrew on a Mac would be a starter.

Would be nice. We have not had any volunteer to make them I think.

> Second suggestion: more of this information to be put into the
> He-Intro.lyx in a lingua franca, i.a. English.
> I am just starting old Hebrew language and am not good enough to read
> what's exactly in He-Intro.lyx.

That is a good idea that I did not think about. I like the idea of
putting the information in e.g. English so that users who want to learn
about Hebrew + LyX who are not fluent in Hebrew could still get help. I
think we should also put it in Hebrew. Even though I imagine most Hebrew
users speak English, I think it is nice to not be too English-centric,
at least for the Hebrew documents. Perhaps if the wiki pages existed we
could just put notes in the .lyx files to see the wiki pages, instead of
copying the information there.

Scott

Re: LyX and (ancient) Hebrew

[mn]

On 03.12.16 18:49, Scott Kostyshak wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 03, 2016 at 04:42:57PM +0100, mn wrote:
>> So I wanted to get started with ancient Hebrew texts.
>> Using Texlive-full, LyX and my usual setup I ran immediately into
>> problems, quite severe.
>> Searched tutorials for doing such a thing and nothing of this kind
worked.
>> Not even he-intro.lyx does compile.
>
> It compiles for me. See attached.
>

In or on what system?
Just installing an official and full (Mac)Texlive 2016 is not enough to
produce this.
Also zoom into the pdf a bit and see that Hebrew is bitmapped and not
vector.

>> After I found a latex-culmus-tarball, which I installed into my local
>> texmf-tree, now the he-intro does compile.
>
> Indeed, so it was a missing dependency. LyX does not install
> dependencies for you, otherwise to install all dependencies for all
> possible uses of LyX the install file would be enormous.
>
I know.
LyX is already quite big to download and install on its own on a mac.

But I thought that it would be easier to find out about why a language
that is distributed as supported within LyX does not produce any output
in that language with a full Texlive-install.

>> But then again luatex takes aeons to output anything and is finally
>> riddled with extra characters in the output that appear out of nowhere.
>
> I don't think LuaTeX + Hebrew has ever compiled for me. You used system
> fonts? Which fonts?
>
I tried some combinations of fonts I know or suspect to cover Hebrew
codepoints:
Myriad, Adbobe Hebrew, Lucida, Ezra-Sil and SBL-Hebrew

SBL seems to be the best, followed closely by Ezra.
Adobe fonts have too many missing glyphs and more so missing combinations.

Those I had to define as default fonts for the document.
Luatex then distributes a pattern of capital T and L letters over the
top part of the page.

>> It seems that xetex is the only choice I have right now?
>
> XeTeX and pdflatex (although you explained this is not a good option).
> Does XeTeX output not look good?
>

When using Lyx to set the main font for Xetex to SBL-Hebrew I get
beautiful output for Hebrew and really terrible kerning for the latin
scripts. See attached file.
(Also this font has 4 missing glyphs again for the latin part…)
So I want/need another font for Roman scripts (haven't tested greek yet)

This font-switcheroo must go into the preamble, I am guessing now since
I am new to Xetex also.
But apparently this is not possible within LyX's gui?

BTW:
Until now I only had simple and short strings entered myself into an
otherwise empty document.
Copying this rather complex but still short example into LyX makes it
quite slow to handle and beachballing a lot. There seems to be a problem
handling this (script or unicode or whatnot).

>> Given that I am not missing or overlooking something quite important
>> here: Are there any plans to improve on this situation?
>
> Thank you for this detailed feedback, Mike! Unfortunately we don't have
> any LyX developer that I know of that knows much about Hebrew. If you
> tell us what LaTeX LyX should produce, then we might be able to improve
> things. But we have no idea what LaTeX LyX should produce. And further
> since pdflatex works for the Hebrew documents we have (I continually
> test this), I was not aware there were problems. Thanks for explaining a
> bit why you do not like the current situation. But I have no idea
> specifically how to improve things.

I do not know how most of the users depending on Lyx (for Hebrew) get
started.
But I think there would be a fair lot of them using Texlive, some on a Mac.
The wiki covers Windows/Miktex and an old Ubuntu version.
Installing culmus by hand into the texmf-tree is not only cumbersome but
greatly discouraging for the average mac-user, I guess?
So wiki pages for a) Hebrew with standard Texlive Installation and b)
Hebrew on a Mac would be a starter.

Second suggestion: more of this information to be put into the
He-Intro.lyx in a lingua franca, i.a. English.
I am just starting old Hebrew language and am not good enough to read
what's exactly in He-Intro.lyx.

greetings
mn


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