noam chomsky the ideologueermisn't he the guy that exposes the
hypocrisy of ideologues?
maybe he is fond of anarcho-syndicalism but he is hardly 'molding society to
his will' (not real well anyway). in fact what he does do is reveal *how*
society is molded (ie controlled/duped) through
Then Ham, you and Platt have simply turned this into a linguistic
debate about the meaning of word ideology. (as well as using
despicable rhetoric to turn the question of what is good into a
joke, despite the brave rescue attempt by Arlo.)
Anyway ... when I said ideology you know I meant isms
Thoroughly enjoyable posts woods and dmb.
I'd like to put these next questions in the Discuss. (If these have been
sufficiently answered elsewhere could you please direct me).
(1) What is the essential difference between the MoQ and SOM thinking?
The reason I ask is that lots of talk has been
A one-point-respone for now DMB exellent piece BTW (and yes I
will follow-up on Rosenthal ... thanks)
Your main point
hey, wait a minute, that's a fine explanation and I don't dispute it
but let's not forget that these abstractions are just that;
abstractions. This god's eye view is so
Ah yes Schumpeter, Kondratiev waves of cultural evolution in economic
cycles in my Master's thesis almost 20 years ago. A big fan.
Profit is good ... it's just that a free (like totally free, man)
market may be the best way to make profits, but it's not the best way
to decide how they're
All
On 14 Oct. Platt Holden quoted LILA:
But the Metaphysics of Quality states that practicality is a social
pattern of good. It is immoral for truth to be subordinated to social
values since that is a lower form of evolution devouring a higher one.
The MOQ sees TRUTH as an intellectual
okay someone please explain to me how a profit-based economic system (ie
capitalism) can be sustainable. ie how can we avoid the boom - bust - war cycle
that has characterised capitalism in practice for the past century or so.
of course i am presuming that we all consider depression and war
Just a quickie from the hip, gav to come back to later.
Firstly, as far as I'm concerned, that's the right question.
Seondly, part of the answer is understanding how those cycles work -
they are actually driven by knowledge - applied knowledge (aka
technology in a technical sense of the
Hello Khoo,
Sorry to have taken so long to respond. You may have gathered that I have an
interest in this, not so much 'language patterns' as 'patterns of living and
being' in this society. I do find it positively amazing what I hear and see
around me everyday.
My question is a simple one and I
Marsha dear
On 16 Oct you wrote:
I have a copy of a September 2003 letter to Paul Turner from RMP, but
not a 2005 letter. Where can I find a copy of the 2005 letter?
It's the very same letter and if you now will ask where Pirsig confirms
the SOL its this passage
There has been a
[Ham]
I could make short work of rebutting your argument with Platt's
reminder that MOQ is also an ideology.
[Arlo]
What a grand rebuttal!!.. if PLATT says it...
But, even if we accept that the MOQ is an ideology (I don't think
it is, but so what...), I would say (and I think most here would
At 08:49 AM 10/16/2008, you wrote:
Marsha dear
On 16 Oct you wrote:
I have a copy of a September 2003 letter to Paul Turner from RMP, but
not a 2005 letter. Where can I find a copy of the 2005 letter?
It's the very same letter and if you now will ask where Pirsig confirms
the SOL its this
[Ian}
Profit is good ... it's just that a free (like totally free, man)
market may be the best way to make profits, but it's not the best way
to decide how they're used some public accountability /
regulation / insurance for lean times is needed there.
Yes, we've seen yet again how
This is good news.
http://in.reuters.com/article/southAsiaNews/idINIndia-35997520081016
.
.
Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.
.
.
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September 23, 2003
Dear Paul Turner
The question you raise about the intellectual level has troubled me
too. When I answered Dan Glover in Lila's Child, I remember being a
little annoyed that anyone should ask what the intellectual level
is-as though he were asking me what I mean by the
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7672138.stm
Good one.
Ian
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At 04:42 AM 10/16/2008, you wrote:
My antagonist from old - Paul Turner disappeared after Pirsig's letter
of 2005 that confirmed the SOL (At times I miss Paul's understanding,
but then it was what resulted in his withdrawal and opening an
impenetrable blog) DMB tried for some time to hold the
Greetings Bo,
I have a copy of a September 2003 letter to Paul Turner from RMP, but
not a 2005 letter. Where can I find a copy of the 2005 letter?
Marsha
At 04:42 AM 10/16/2008, you wrote:
All
On 14 Oct. Platt Holden quoted LILA:
But the Metaphysics of Quality states that
The Heart of the Matter: Values for a World Community (1993).
It might be a great time to reread the excerpts from this interview.
http://robertpirsig.org/AHP.htm
.
.
Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.
.
.
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo,
Here is a very interesting look at Lucifian cults and
other secret societies in the United Nations and how
their ideas are also injected into the U.N. and other
societies that want a New World Order. Also how
zeigeist unknowing, or intentionally follows these Lucifier
cults and secert
[Ham]
I could make short work of rebutting your argument with Platt's
reminder that MOQ is also an ideology.
[Arlo]
What a grand rebuttal!!.. if PLATT says it...
But, even if we accept that the MOQ is an ideology (I don't think
it is, but so what...), I would say (and I think most
Hi gav, I'm with you ...
My (pesonal) focus is going to be different.
All together now we're all individuals !.
Unless the backs-against-the-wall dig-for-victory mentality appeals
to more people as a call to action (different stories will appeal to
different people) it doesn't have to be cast
okay someone please explain to me how a profit-based economic system (ie
capitalism) can be sustainable. ie how can we avoid the boom - bust - war
cycle that has characterised capitalism in practice for the past century
or so.
of course i am presuming that we all consider depression and war
[Krimel]
Hey, Mulder are you running out of tin foil?
Have you considered medication?
-Original Message-
From: Woods Woods [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:12 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [MD] opposing view to zeigeist
Here is a very interesting
Bo,
First you say Pirsig doesn't agree with your SOL, then he does, then
he doesn't and now he does again. I guess we all yearn acceptance.
woods
- Original Message
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:49:22 AM
It seems to me without the drumming/music it is a wet noodle. And
what's this HE shit? - Marsha
At 10:12 AM 10/16/2008, you wrote:
Here is a very interesting look at Lucifian cults and
other secret societies in the United Nations and how
their ideas are also injected into the
[Krimel]
Hey, Mulder are you running out of tin foil?
Have you considered medication?
woods:
Again, this is your way of trying to get me
to talk about how UFO's made crop circles, as
you've done in the past, so, again, I'm not interested
in discussing this Krimel.
Your so
Dear all,
I would like to reply to at least two threads this weekend, when I get past
some meetings tomorrow and some work laid out for me.
But before then I want to catch this thought before it flies away.
Take Time. Time is percieved as linear because we have clocks constructed to
measure
Marsha:
It seems to me without the drumming/music it is a
wet noodle. And what's this HE shit?
woods:
Yeah, the music is good. It's from an anime, but I
can't remember which one. I've been trying to
find it on youtube to listen to (just the music).
Do you like zeigeist? I
Sorry this should read:
In reality, time is NOT only linear but multilinear and omnilinear and
happening all at once and everywhere.
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Khoo Hock Aun [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
Dear all,
I would like to reply to at least two threads this weekend, when I
The spiritual center of the World has had different names in different
traditions, but in many spiritual systems there is referred to a certain and
unique point of emanation of spiritual order, most often described in a way
that indicates it being placed in a parallel world or a higher dimension.
Hi Khoo,
Reality is a paradox. The present never changes, but everything that
changes changes in the present.
So long as there are changes there are individuals changing.
Regards,
Platt
I would like to reply to at least two threads this weekend, when I get
past
some meetings tomorrow and
SA,
I suggest reading Jiddu Krishnamurti. He was being groomed by the
Theosophical Society, and left it. Basically, Krishnamurti said
don't believe him or anybody else, but find out for yourself.
If you need that kind of music to sell an idea it's probably not
worth much on its own.
Hi Platt
I used to say that the past and the future are figments of the imagination.
I still say it today; there is only the eternal present.
Alas, I bound by time have to go sleep now for an early appointment
tomorrow. Does it not seem that those who live by the clock will die by the
clock ?
This is interesting stuff for someone interested in conspiracy
theories and how they work.
The zeitgeist story includes some wonderfully true historical factual
stuff, it's just amazing how some brains can see conspiracy linking it
into some overarching evil truth ... truly truly amazing. I just
Thoroughly enjoyable posts woods and dmb.
I'd like to put these next questions in the Discuss. (If these have been
sufficiently answered elsewhere could you please direct me).
(1) What is the essential difference between the MoQ and SOM thinking?
The reason I ask is that lots of talk has been
of course i am presuming that we all consider depression and war things
to
be avoided. (general assent here?)
[Platt:]
Not at the expense of liberty.
[Chris]
Ah, yes, isn't it wonderful that you have found a metaphysics that you can
use to make the seemingly meaningless word liberty
Hi Platt
I used to say that the past and the future are figments of the
imagination.
I still say it today; there is only the eternal present.
Alas, I bound by time have to go sleep now for an early appointment
tomorrow. Does it not seem that those who live by the clock will die by
the
Hi Platt,
Okay, looks like sleep will have to wait a while longer.
Sure, we experience and observe change - that is the time-based reality we
have constructed for ourselves in this subject object metaphysical world. We
tire, we are refereshed: these are the changes we experience.
But no matter
Greetings, Khoo Hock --
This is an outstanding essay on time perception and its relation to
experiential (cause-and-effect) reality.
I sincerely hope you're going to be a regular here, as the MoQers are
badly in need of your insight. Can you tell us something about your
background and
Marsha:
I suggest reading Jiddu Krishnamurti. He was being groomed by the
Theosophical Society, and left it. Basically, Krishnamurti said
don't believe him or anybody else, but find out for yourself.
If you need that kind of music to sell an idea it's probably not
worth much on its own.
[Platt]
It's no surprise that Arlo's ideology is to trash ideologies.
[Arlo]
Ah yes, the classic you are intolerant if you condemn intolerance.
[Platt]
Environmentalists and socialists excepted.
[Arlo]
Thanks for more evidence of distractive, ideological rhetoric. Kindly
point out where I
of course i am presuming that we all consider depression and war things
to
be avoided. (general assent here?)
[Platt:]
Not at the expense of liberty.
[Chris]
Ah, yes, isn't it wonderful that you have found a metaphysics that you can
use to make the seemingly meaningless word
Andre asked:
(1) What is the essential difference between the MoQ and SOM thinking?
Despite what Bo says, one can find many different ways to reject SOM within the
mainstream academic world of philosophy. If you go to the Stanford encyclopedia
of philosophy, for example, and enter the term
Ian:
This is interesting stuff for someone interested in conspiracy
theories and how they work.
woods:
What's this have to do with anything? Is that how you dismiss something?
Oh, it's just a conspiracy. Maybe something more thoughtful further down.
We'll see.
Ian:
The zeitgeist
Good Morning,
- Original Message -
From: gav [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 2:47 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] growth and sustainability
gav
okay someone please explain to me how a profit-based economic system (ie
capitalism) can be sustainable. ie how
woods:
I do have one question actually. Are you
therefore a zeigeist believer? I brought this
up due to zeigeist thrown around on this forum
and thought an opposing view would be good.
[Krimel]
I have found your recent rants on conspiracy and fringe politics amusing. I
don't know where you
dmb,
- Original Message -
From: david buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Metaphysical issues: DQ
Mel, Krimel, Ian and all:
Your riff on water and the scientist was well written and I've been enjoying
your
Wooded one, to thy Greek Lucifer is thy bringer of light!
thy spirit o' thee times suckles at thy teet of thy
occult knowledge, a Mystic knowledge outside the realm of
rational thought. Aye let not the polluted name of lucifer
sully thine suckling intellect! Church and politicians alikes
not thy
[Mel]
Not for profit operations often operate less efficiently
and squander any chance of surplus and returns less
if anything to community.
[Krimel]
This is not only wrong it is down right offensive. Non-profits tend to be
mission driven. Unlike for profits they have a purpose for existing
Dave,
Perhaps we find a bit of common ground here?
Krimel
[dmb]
Compelling? Seriously? If you believe there's a global satanic conspiracy
then you'll believe anything. That is tin-hat stuff of the worst kind. It
has got to be one of the most hateful, paranoid, ignorant things I've ever
seen. It
[Krimel]
I have found your recent rants on conspiracy and fringe politics amusing.
woods:
I have found your recent rants on conspiracy and fringe politics amusing.
But I have never said anything of a conspiracy is happening. You seem
to advocate conspiracy. Not me.
Krimel:
I
My cultural glasses are truer than your cultural glasses...
At 01:06 PM 10/16/2008, you wrote:
Dave,
Perhaps we find a bit of common ground here?
Krimel
[dmb]
Compelling? Seriously? If you believe there's a global satanic conspiracy
then you'll believe anything. That is tin-hat stuff of
Lucifer is a static pattern of value, like God and Tinkerbell.
At 01:18 PM 10/16/2008, you wrote:
Lucifer is immoral. That's what Lucifer means, but
hey if you like being immoral.
woods
- Original Message
From: Lord Arioch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:
Yea. I think we agree on most conventional things. It's fun to chat with you
and I think of you as a friend. But when it comes to the MOQ there is very
little common ground, if any.
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 16 Oct
dmb:
Compelling? Seriously? If you believe there's a global satanic conspiracy then
you'll believe anything.
woods:
Hey, watch zeigeist part 2. They believe it dmb, or are you just doin' this
off
the top of your head without any research. I haven't watched it all, but I've
seen
some
... and Newton's Law of Gravity, for that matter.
At 01:23 PM 10/16/2008, you wrote:
Lucifer is a static pattern of value, like God and Tinkerbell.
At 01:18 PM 10/16/2008, you wrote:
Lucifer is immoral. That's what Lucifer means, but
hey if you like being immoral.
woods
-
Marsha:
Lucifer is a static pattern of value, like God and Tinkerbell.
woods:
At least somebody is making sense here. Sounds like Krimel and dmb
are still in SOM land. Very good Marsha. These are static patterns.
woods
At 01:18 PM 10/16/2008, you wrote:
Lucifer is immoral. That's
google Lucifer wooded one, and drink.
Satans immorality is thy own.
Lucifer is immoral. That's what Lucifer means, but
hey if you like being immoral.
Moq_Discuss mailing list
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What Khoo brings up here is another kind of
zeitgeist or opposition to zeitgeist (good post Khoo)
dmb, Ian, Krimel, and Marsha (though a recent post of yours
showed thought) I find your naivety a bit well, naive and unthoughtful.
Ian, you only post every once in while with hardly any
THANK YOU LORD ARIOCH!!
At least somebody knows how to intellectualize still. Ian, dmb, and others
fighting
for their zeigeist without any skepticism, pure naive. And I thought the
highest
static pattern of value in the moq was intellectual. Ian and dmb just have
preconceptions
Mel:
High quality post. I especially liked your observations about 1) how
government meddling prolonged the great depression and 2) the moral aspect
of pain. The latter was specifically noted by Pirsig:
If you eliminate suffering from this world you eliminate life. There's no
evolution. Those
SA,
If my post about Krishnamurti didn't ooze skepticism, I don't know
what to say. Or are we back to the Devil Card in the Tarot Deck and
entrapping ourselves.All these patterns are conceptions rather
than experience. They are dissected and isolated from causes and conditions.
Now if you had a Ph.D. in economics and made as much sense as Ron Paul
I'd consider it, but otherwise: inflation (which is here already, why so many
people work two or more jobs and both parents work for the most part):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul
On Ron Paul:
He clearly
They believe that there will be a World Messiah coming to rule the
world into what is good and all will be equal. Yet, at the same time zeigeist,
as
in part 1 which I have seen, believes Christ is bad and false. All religions
all false. Yet,
they go around with their new world order
Is Ron Paul going to be on the Pennsylvania ballot? Will he be a
legitimate write-in candidate? If not, what are you going to do about it?
At 02:29 PM 10/16/2008, you wrote:
Now if you had a Ph.D. in economics and made as much sense as Ron Paul
I'd consider it, but otherwise:
Marsha:
If my post about Krishnamurti didn't ooze skepticism, I don't know
what to say.
woods:
Exactly. That's what I thought you posted and I posted back about
this very point.
Marsha:
Or are we back to the Devil Card in the Tarot Deck and
entrapping ourselves.All these patterns are
Marsha:
Is Ron Paul going to be on the Pennsylvania ballot?
woods:
No
Marsha:
Will he be a legitimate write-in candidate?
woods:
I don't know. What's a legitimate write-in candidate? Thought
you could write in anybody.
Marsha:
If not, what are you going to do about it?
woods:
hope for
Ahh, sweet Marsha. tis ado about entrappment..
evil, as God and tinkerbell are abstractions,
truly!
thy femme shines brightest among mortals!!
- Original Message
From: MarshaV [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 2:25:14 PM
Subject: Re: [MD]
Marsha:
Ahhh, but dmb's is on the road to becoming a proper academic.
woods:
true. He has to start thinking politically. It has to avoid the fringe
issues the moq set out to establish. The whole argument against
the professor in the office by Phadreas/Pirsig. dmb's becoming a
At 02:42 PM 10/16/2008, SA wrote:
Just pointing out the preconceptions people have. dmb goes as
far as to ask me to leave.
Please. dmb needs to leave with a comment like that. dmb needs to
back up, and just
because I bring up an argument against zeitgeist doesn't mean I'm
trying to kill
Fool!
MoQ places TRUTH as experience!
thy greeks places TRUTH as what exists!.
only thou, hast placed TRUTH as intellectual!
thus only thou affirms!
ahhh the feeble mind
what a delight!
The MOQ sees TRUTH as an intellectual pattern value and in this
context it is synonymous with
old one, know well, thy mind is in a state of decay.
The MOQ sees TRUTH as an intellectual pattern value and in this
context it is synonymous with OBJECTIVITY - not merely truthfulness -
and was what arrived with the Greeks - as SOM - thus the
intellect=S/O is affirmed again, again and AGAIN,
good morning,
gav
okay someone please explain to me how a profit-based
economic system (ie
capitalism) can be sustainable. ie how can we avoid the
boom - bust - war
cycle that has characterised capitalism in practice for the
past century or
so.
mel
a profit based economic system
[Mel]
Not for profit operations often operate less efficiently
and squander any chance of surplus and returns less
if anything to community.
[Krimel]
This is not only wrong it is down right offensive.
Good Lord -- as if your being offended as anything to do with the
validity of Mel's
oh if only the conspiracies were truedionysian revelry for all.
manichean dualisms like god and the devil are useful for controlling people.
look at rome. look at the US.
of course the archetype of the devil has a few meanings. pan/dionysius/green
man is one of them - nature spirit. the
Ian,
You brought up David Icke as a dismissal point to
any opposition of zeitgeist. For if David Icke dismisses
zeitgeist, well, then this opposition is low value for David
Icke is not credible. Well, if you knew that David
Icke was also used as a source for zeitgeist what might
you
Freedom's just an escape from something negative.(Pirsig, Lila, Chap. 17)
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.(Kris Kristofferson, Me
And Bobby McGee)
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David,
Thank you kindly for directing me.
Andre
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[ian] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7672138.stm
I wonder if the herd instinct is an example of what Pirsigconsiders a defect
in the free market.Other possible examples:Uncritical Brand name
loyalty,Celebrity endorsements,Deceptive advertising,Craig (not a defect in the
free
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