Re: [Talk-gb-london] Transport for London & OSM - station mapping project

[Thomas Wood]

These are showing up quite nicely on the map. Holborn is quite impressive!
(Although appears to be rendering above the buildings on street level?)
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/51.51733/-0.11991

On 13 March 2018 at 10:05, Derick Rethans  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm pretty sure Kilburn station was done too!:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/56962277
>
> cheers,
> Derick
>
> On Tue, 13 Mar 2018, Chapple Theo wrote:
>
> > Hi everyone
> > Further to my earlier message, I'm pleased to inform you that TfL's
> supplier, Mentz, has added the data to OSM to map the first batch of TfL
> stations:
> >
> > -  North Greenwich
> >
> > -  Aldgate East
> >
> > -  Tottenham Court Road
> >
> > -  Canning Town
> >
> > -  Elephant and Castle
> >
> > -  Canada Water
> >
> > -  Farringdon
> >
> > -  Holborn
> >
> > -  Belsize Park
> >
> > -  Bank
> >
> > -  Arsenal
> >
> > -  Notting Hill Gate
> >
> > -   Euston Square
> >
> > -   Great Portland Street
> >
> > -   Hammersmith
> >
> > We will be adding more stations over the coming days. Please do let us
> know if you have any comments on questions.
> > Thanks,
> > Theo
> >
> > Theo Chapple | Digital Partnerships Manager | Digital | Technology & Data
> >
> > Transport for London | Floor 2 G, 14 Pier Walk,  North Greenwich, London
> SE10 0ES | Tel: 020 7027 2983 | Internal: 82983 | Mobile: 07789653898 |
> E-mail: theochap...@tfl.gov.uk | Web:
> www.tfl.gov.uk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> ***
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Re: [Talk-GB] pay_scale_area

[Thomas Wood]

I can't remember very well back to when they were imported, but I think I
was uncertain about them.

I'm afraid that for the past couple of years my involvement with OSM has
been very limited due to time constraints... it has long been my intention
to review the success and uptake of the naptan import.
On 9 Feb 2011 10:35, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote:
 Hi,

 I am presently doing some tracing in Dumfries and there is a way which
 is marked public_transport=pay_scale_area. It is part of a Naptan
 import. The area seems to be vague and is cutting across a number of
 areas where I am doing some detailed work.

 Is there a good reason that this should still be kept?

 Cheers
 Bob

 Whilst agreeing that it seems inaccurate (I've never understood why it
 needs to be an area when it relates to linear bus routes); I would check
 with the guys on the Transit forum.

 Saying that, when I previously asked about it's purpose, the guy that
 inserted them had doubts about its validity in the main database.

 Cheers
 Dave F.


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Re: [Talk-GB] NaPTAN station codes

[Thomas Wood]

On 10/24/10 20:26, o...@edwardbetts.com wrote:

We're importing the location of bus stops from NaPTAN, can we also load the
NaPTAN codes for railway stations?

snip

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN says the dataset is Crown copyright
but we have special permission to load it into OSM as CC-BY-SA. Would that
include adding the NaPTAN codes to railway stations? Would this bulk import
have to be done by the NaPTAN user, or would it be okay for me to use my
account to load the data? http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/NaPTAN


This was all on the todo list, but I never got around to doing anything 
about it.
I'd be happy to hand over the account details if others have the time 
and motivation to do it.


(I also need to get around to importing the remaining requested counties 
for bus stops...)



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Re: [Talk-GB] Some TfL data released today for commercial reuse - more on the way

[Thomas Wood]

On 15 June 2010 22:03, Gregory nomoregra...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Yay, data! Gobble gobble gobble.
 So I mashed the traffic cameras onto
 OpenStreetMap. http://www.livingwithdragons.com/maps/tfl-cams
 They have a similar page of course, so the main purpose of creating that
 must be to practice my OpenLayers/Javascript kung-fu.
 But the permalink works so you can tell people to check the traffic around
 Victoria by visiting
 http://www.livingwithdragons.com/maps/tfl-cams/?zoom=15lat=51.4965lon=-0.1451layers=B0T
 Now to continue looking through the data and what else I can mash up :)

The traffic camera location dataset has been available for several
years now, I never really bothered to do anything with it because I
didn't think it was particularly interesting.

What interests me far more is the access to the Tube's TrackerNet system.

I'll have a play about with it a little after my C exam tomorrow morning...

-- 
Regards,
Thomas Wood
(Edgemaster)

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Re: [Talk-transit] Bus Stops in Bath

[Thomas Wood]

Tim Francois wrote:
 Hi guys,
  
 I assume this is the appropriate 'forum' for discussing NAPTAN import 
 requests?
  
 I recently requested that any data be imported or made available for 
 Bath (ATCO: 018) at the wiki 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Request_for_Import.

My apologies, I've not been watching that page for changes closely recently.

 Is the wiki still monitored, or should I have just asked on here? Also, 
 how old is this data? The centre has been completely re-vamped over the 
 past 3 years, so bus stops have moved since then (notwithstanding that 
 the main bus station has moved location also, but this has already been 
 changed in OSM a long time ago!).
  
 Thanks
 Tim

The data that will be imported is from July/August last year. Updates to 
this data in OSM are planned at some point in the future, but it'll 
probably be easiest to do it under the assumption that all NaPTAN data 
in OSM was from the same dump.

I'll get ahead with importing Bath now.

Tom

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Re: [Talk-transit] Bus Stops in Bath

[Thomas Wood]

Unfortunately not, the decision was made to let people on the ground 
review which data was more correct. (Plus the author of the tool didn't 
have the coding experience nor the time to write something to compare 
the stops in the area and merge them)...

Tim Francois wrote:
 Tom,
 
 This has probably been covered countless times: what about those bus stops
 (the few!) which are there already in OSM - will these be auto-detected an
 not imported?
 
 Thanks for the quick response!
 
 Tim
 
 -Original Message-
 From: talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org
 [mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Wood
 Sent: 12 April 2010 17:31
 To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics
 Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] Bus Stops in Bath
 
 Tim Francois wrote:
 Hi guys,
  
 I assume this is the appropriate 'forum' for discussing NAPTAN import 
 requests?
  
 I recently requested that any data be imported or made available for 
 Bath (ATCO: 018) at the wiki 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Request_for_Import.
 
 My apologies, I've not been watching that page for changes closely recently.
 
 Is the wiki still monitored, or should I have just asked on here? 
 Also, how old is this data? The centre has been completely re-vamped 
 over the past 3 years, so bus stops have moved since then 
 (notwithstanding that the main bus station has moved location also, 
 but this has already been changed in OSM a long time ago!).
  
 Thanks
 Tim
 
 The data that will be imported is from July/August last year. Updates to
 this data in OSM are planned at some point in the future, but it'll probably
 be easiest to do it under the assumption that all NaPTAN data in OSM was
 from the same dump.
 
 I'll get ahead with importing Bath now.
 
 Tom
 
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Re: [Talk-transit] Bus Stops in Bath

[Thomas Wood]

Vincent Pottier wrote:
 Le 12/04/2010 18:42, Thomas Wood a écrit :
 Unfortunately not, the decision was made to let people on the ground
 review which data was more correct. (Plus the author of the tool didn't
 have the coding experience nor the time to write something to compare
 the stops in the area and merge them)...

 Maybe they are portion of code that could be reused :
 In France it has been a big import near Brest (roads and building)
 And a tool was made to compare existing roads and road to be imported.
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/BMO#Differential_import

Thank you for this, I'll look into it the next time I work on the code 
(which will be after my university exams have finished).

Tom

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Re: [Talk-GB] OS OpenData StreetView Tiles now available

[Thomas Wood]

I began producing a second set of tiles in addition to RichardF's 
scripted set that uses a slightly different production method.

Both rely on gdalwarp at the core, and this can be assumed to be correct 
(I hope!)

Both sets were generated using z16 as the base resolution, and both can 
be compared here:
http://edgemaster.dev.openstreetmap.org/streetview_tiles/ossv.html?zoom=16lat=60.51376lon=-1.05105layers=BTT

I can see at most a 1px shift between the two.

Chris Browet wrote:
 I'm not too sure the reprojection from EPSG:27700 (OSGB36) to 
 EPSG:900913 (Google) went perfect.
 
 In Merkaartor, it is possible to load the OS Street View tiles directly 
 and to use the EPSG:27700 projection (see below).
 
 Check 
 http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/x93nMda7mBrfra8AKbrj5g?feat=directlink 
 for example.
 Now compare with the same area in potlach using the TMS: 
 http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/bHXkZ1jOB7v_JpiUmMlE5w?feat=directlink
 
 It seems the TMS is constantly shifted a couple of meters SE (this 
 assuming the OSM'ers are right, of course).
 
 For clients supporting multiple projections, wouldn't it be best to have 
 a WMS (preferably a WMS-C) allowing to choose between the 2 projections 
 (+ EPSG:4326, maybe)? It might be that 
 http://os.openstreetmap.org/wms/map.php?source=sv; 
 http://os.openstreetmap.org/wms/map.php?source=sv; allows it, but I 
 can't get the capabilities...
 
 Regards
 - Chris -
 
 How to load OS Street view tiles in Merkaartor:
 ---
 - Be sure the .TIF files and the corresponding .TAB are in the same 
 directory
 - Layers - Map - ... - GeoTIFF - Load image... and select the 
 tile(s) to load
 - Layers - Map - GeoTIFF - Zoom to center on the tile
 
 How to use the EPSG:27700 (OSGB36) projection in Merkaartor:
 -
 - if using svn trunk, just View - Set projection - OSGB36 (EPSG:27700)
 - if using 0.15, first add the projection by going to 
 ~/.merkaartor/Projections.xml and adding the following projection line:
 
 Projection name=OSGB36 (EPSG:27700)+proj=tmerc +lat_0=49
 +lon_0=-2 +k=0.999601 +x_0=40 +y_0=-10 +ellps=airy
 +datum=OSGB36 +no_defs/Projection
 
 
 
 On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 00:07, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) 
 ajrli...@googlemail.com mailto:ajrli...@googlemail.com wrote:
 
 The process of creating map tiles from Ordnance Survey StreetView in our
 required format is now largely complete (zoom 17 tiles not yet
 available)
 and can be viewed here:
 
 http://os.openstreetmap.org/
 
 These tiles can now be used as a backdrop in editors. However before you
 start editing, please consider the following:
 
 1. Don't assume the OS data is either correct or up to date. Use it as a
 guide and additional resource for your mapping, not a replacement.
 
 2. Please add source tags to any data you add to OSM from OS
 StreetView. See
 the tag suggestions:
 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ordnance_Survey_Opendata#Attributing_OS
 
 3. If you're tempted to map in an area you're not familiar with,
 contact any
 local contributors first. Please don't alienate other contributors by
 treading on their toes. They will know their local area better than
 anyone
 else.
 
 4. Look for places that have been mapped using Yahoo! imagery and
 don't have
 road names. This is a good place to start.
 
 5. Avoid simply duplicating OS data in blank areas of OSM unless you're
 familiar with the area and don't have access to other resources such
 as a
 GPS.
 
 6. In May the OS will release a further vector based product which may
 provide better data for buildings than tracing from OS StreetView.
 You might
 want to hold off tracing buildings until the details are confirmed.
 
 How to make use of these tiles:
 
 Potlatch:
 
 When the next version of Potlatch is live, you can just select 'UK: OS
 StreetView' from the background menu in the options box.
 
 Until then, just add this custom URL:
 http://os.openstreetmap.org/sv/!/!/!.png
 http://os.openstreetmap.org/sv/%21/%21/%21.png
 
 JOSM:
 
 Create a new WMS layer with the following url:
 
 http://os.openstreetmap.org/wms/map.php?source=sv;
 http://os.openstreetmap.org/wms/map.php?source=sv;
 
 or alternatively use the SlippyMap plugin for which you can find
 instructions of how to add custom tile sources at
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/SlippyMap#Custom_tile_URLS
 with http://os.openstreetmap.org/sv/ as
 slippymap.custom_tile_source_1.url
 
 Merkaartor:
 
 1) In the Tools menu, open the TMS Servers Editor.
 2) Add the following:
 Name: OS Street View
 Server address: os.openstreetmap.org http://os.openstreetmap.org
 Path: /sv/%1/%2/%3.png
 Tile 

Re: [Talk-GB] Ordnance Survey Landform Panorama data

[Thomas Wood]

Phil James wrote:
 Aah! Thanks Richard,
 I've had a closer look now (I'd only quickly skimmed the SD folder).
 I took the file numbers to be the same as the sheet references on the 
 First Series sets - don't know why - especially as they are derived from 
 1:50k data!
 Just as a matter of interest, I'm viewing the files in Openoffice. The 
 drawing app. provides a quick and easy way to view the files graphically.
 
 Phil.

How useful, I didn't realise OpenOffice supported DXF, even if it isn't 
so great with the 20MB file of the Snowdon mountain range that I use as 
my test case!

I've spent most of today working with different tools to convert the raw 
contour data into other, more useful forms such as a DEM dataset (which 
is essentially just an image coloured according to height.

I've generally found a successful method to do this, and hope to publish 
my results later this week.

Thomas

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Re: [Talk-GB] London Underground roundel

[Thomas Wood]

Wow, good work. I suppose this will start a flood of localisation 
requests for other metro systems, this will probably be a good thing - 
it'll force our mapnik localisation to be made better! (maybe I could 
target it as a GSoC project for myself...)

Regards,
Thomas
(Edgemaster)

David Earl wrote:
 Back in November, in this thread:
  
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2009-November/004996.html
 we were talking about the possibility of using the London Underground 
 roundel on map renderings. I said I would contact them.
 
 My first contact went unanswered, but I chased it up again recently and 
 after an email exchange I spoke to them on the phone as well.
 
 Yes, we have permission use it in principle, providing it is reproduced 
 per their design (which is the obvious red circle with a blue bar 
 through it). I have their official file.
 
 They also sent a set of design guidelines (as most 
 companies/organisations do when you want to use their logo). But these 
 are aimed at leaflets and stationery etc, not maps, a suprising omission 
 (they require, for example, 25% of the logo size as clear border all 
 round). I discussed this with them on the phone (this mail can serve as 
 a record of that conversation) and they said in our context it is OK to 
 just put a white border around it following the contour of the logo of 
 say 50%-100% the width of the ring/bar, rather like we do for text 
 captions now, just so it is distinctly separated from the background. 
 (They are going to think about revising their guidelines so it takes 
 this kind of use into account).
 
 I did point out that A-Z maps use their logo in similar contexts. What 
 we mustn't do is use a dark rule around it or, as A-Z and some others 
 do, put a rule around the whole blue bar as well. A-Z is infringing 
 their guidelines on the central area maps! On the smaller scale maps, 
 they (A-Z) are more or less right, but in some cases the white exclusion 
 zone is not present or very hard to see.
 
 So good news in principle. Whether we do it in practice is up to whoever 
 wants to play with mapnik, and whether the operator tags on LU stations 
 are consistent enough for this to be applied to LU and no other metro. I 
 could put in a trac request for it.
 
 N.B. I asked in the context of our Mapnik rendering. I see no problem in 
 TAH as well. But as CloudMade is a commercial company, I think it would 
 be unwise to just do it in CloudMade renderings (and likewise others) 
 without them approaching TfL themselves. There's a request form here:
https://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/corporate/media/logos/default.asp
 I don't think there would be a problem, they seem very friendly, and A-Z 
 is a precedent.
 
 I've appended below what I asked (their form ignored my newlines, sorry).
 
 David
 
 --
 I'm writing to ask you about the use of the London Underground roundel 
 logo to indicate tube station positions on a map produced for 
 OpenStreetMap. We know that this is copyrighted and trademarked and it 
 is important for the aims of our project that we don't infringe other 
 people's intellectual property. OpenStreetMap (www.openstreetmap.org) is 
 an initiative to create maps from scratch free of the restrictions 
 normally associated with maps. It is in effect a wikipedia for maps. 
 There are two aspects to this: firstly the map data is stored in a 
 database in an encoded form, and that is OpenStreetMaps primary asset, 
 and is not an issue here; secondly, any number of different renderings 
 of style and content can be produced from that data, a key example being 
 the map that you see by default on the OpenStreetMap web site (we know 
 this internally as the Mapnik rendering) as linked above. We have been 
 discussing on our mailing lists recently about how to represent metro 
 stations. At present Mapnik uses a generic off-blue square (for example, 
 Chancery lane, here: http://osm.org/go/euu4m6X7y- ). This applies 
 throughout the world. However, we'd like to customize this for 
 particular metro systems, and in London that should obviously be the 
 London Underground red and blue roundel instead of the blue square. So 
 my questions are: 1. Is this something we can just do, or do we need 
 permission to use the symbol? 2. Are you able to give permission for 
 this use? 3. Would using it require an acknowledgement? (This might be 
 impractical on the map itself, given the number of metro systems in the 
 world, let alone the number of other potentially customizable logos for 
 shops, hotels etc, but might be possible on a separately linked page). 
 Things to bear in mind: (a) our maps are licensed CCbySA 
 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/), that is, in essence, 
 anyone can reproduce them free of charge providing the same restrictions 
 are applied to their copy (share alike), and freely available for 
 commercial and non-commercial uses. (b) there is no question of storing 
 the logo 

Re: [Talk-transit] New versions of NaPTAN now publicly available under free license?

[Thomas Wood]

The dumps that OSM has imported (and still is slowly importing, when I 
get around to it), were provided directly by the DfT via their NaPTAN 
download site, which always contains the current dataset (I believe 
updated at least daily).

I will continue to import the dataset that is dated as 1st August 2009 
22:21:35, so that we have a consistent set of data across the whole of 
the UK.

Future update processes will be designed in such a way to replace data 
that has not been touched by OSM users, and flag possible conflicts 
between OSM and any NaPTAN changes for human review.

Regards,
Thomas

Steven Chamberlain wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I've not posted on this list before, but I wanted to check people here
 were aware that NaPTAN is now available via data.gov.uk (I heard about
 this via http://twitter.com/traveline).  New versions are supposed to
 become available quarterly.
 
 There are references to the DfT's Terms of Use, but data.gov.uk quite
 clearly states the license as UK Crown Copyright with data.gov.uk
 rights.  data.gov.uk doesn't seem to give a comprehensive,
 legally-worded license agreement but it does include statements
 resembling the CC-BY license summary.
 
 Would this be an acceptable data source for future OSM import/update
 efforts?  Is this more up-to-date than the dump provided by ITO?  The
 root node's ModificationDateTime attribute is 2010-03-17T10:52:24 so
 I'd imagine so.
 
 I don't know how a regular OSM user could fulfil the attribution
 requirement though, so maybe any imports of this would have to be
 handled specially, just as they currently are.  (Where is the current
 attribution of copyright for the dump provided by ITO, by the way?)
 
 Thanks.
 
 Regards,


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Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?

[Thomas Wood]

On 13 March 2010 17:25, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote:
 I would certainly hope that any updates are not used to overwrite
 existing local edits. I have spent far too many hours checking and
 updating the data to have a newer version overwrite it. A smart merge
 would be more useful, I would write it if required.

No planned updates will overwrite any contributed data.

 As too 'dumping in' the remaining county data I would prefer that it is
 handled locally where possible. The NaPTAN data is useful and good in
 parts but needs checking and improving too.

We'd all prefer it if it'd be handled locally, but there just doesn't
seem to be much interest in improving the data en-mass, merely in the
piecewise way that most people have mapped up until now.

 I think too much data is imported just because it is available - I
 prefer imports to add value. NaPTAN can add value but that is best
 realised by someone local to the import managing it.

I would argue that NaPTAN does add value in undermapped parts of the
country - the vast majority of NaPTAN stops are correct.

 Cheers, Chris

 Roger Slevin wrote:
 Thomas

 If you want a refresh of the NaPTAN dataset, then just ask me  and I
 will arrange for this be made available.  I appreciate that this could be a
 two-edged sword  it would update the data, but in the areas where work
 has already been done on the data from a year ago, it may over-write any
 local edits made to that data - or has this already been taken into account,
 so that new data would sit alongside existing data and would only be
 accepted if it is appropriate at each location?

 Cheers

 Roger

 -Original Message-
 From: talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org
 [mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Wood
 Sent: 13 March 2010 12:45 PM
 To: osm; OSM - Talk GB
 Subject: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?

 Hello all,
 It's now been more than a year since we got permission to import the
 NaPTAN dataset, so far only 53 of the 143 counties that we have the
 data for have been imported.

 So, in short, is it time for the rest to be dumped in?

 Discussion please.

 Regards,
 Thomas

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-- 
Regards,
Thomas Wood
(Edgemaster)

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[Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?

[Thomas Wood]

Hello all,
It's now been more than a year since we got permission to import the
NaPTAN dataset, so far only 53 of the 143 counties that we have the
data for have been imported.

So, in short, is it time for the rest to be dumped in?

Discussion please.

Regards,
Thomas

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Re: [Talk-GB] Ordnance Survey response

[Thomas Wood]

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
  Hi all,
 
  As threatened I've finished a response to the Ordnance Survey 
consultation:
 
 http://www.systemeD.net/documents/os_consultation.pdf
 
  For those without the appetite to read five pages of PDF, the summary is:
 
  - Good news generally
  - Releasing 1:25k and 1:50k rasters is not necessary and may be harmful
  - Access to aerial imagery should be provided, with no restrictions 
on tracing
  - Licence should take account of EU database rights
 
  I'd encourage everyone here, whether or not you agree with this, to
  send your own response to the consultation. You can bet that there
  will be well-funded people lobbying for the other side. Volunteer
  projects like OSM have traditionally not been great at having their
  voices heard in the corridors of power; let's make sure this one
  doesn't get away.
 
  The original consultation is at
  
http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ordnancesurveyconsultation 

  .
 
  cheers
  Richard

As usual, Richard, a very enlightening set of points made in response.

I must, at some point, get around to reading the consultation documents 
and forming my own response.

Regards,
Thomas

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Re: [Talk-GB] Why using place=city for legal status is a bad idea

[Thomas Wood]

Tom Chance wrote:

 It's interesting looking at major cities like London, where local 
 mappers have used hamlet/village/town/place to try and (by the looks 
 of it) estimate their importance.

 Regards,
 Tom
And in the case of Croydon (a reasonably insignificant suburb), as city.

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Re: [Talk-GB] More NaPTAN Counties Uploaded

[Thomas Wood]

On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 11:33 +, Thomas Wood wrote:
 Hi list,
 Just to inform you that 6 more counties have been uploaded this morning,
 Angus, East Yorkshire, Herefordshire, Highland, Leicestershire and
 Norfolk.
 The remaining 4 requested (and any others requested over the weekend) on
 the wiki will be uploaded on Monday.
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Request_for_Import
 
 Regards,
 Thomas Wood - NaPTAN Importer
 

The remaining 4 of South Lanarkshire, Surrey, West Sussex and Windsor 
Maidenhead have all just been imported.

Regards,
Thomas


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[Talk-GB] More NaPTAN Counties Uploaded

[Thomas Wood]

Hi list,
Just to inform you that 6 more counties have been uploaded this morning,
Angus, East Yorkshire, Herefordshire, Highland, Leicestershire and
Norfolk.
The remaining 4 requested (and any others requested over the weekend) on
the wiki will be uploaded on Monday.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Request_for_Import

Regards,
Thomas Wood - NaPTAN Importer


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Re: [Talk-GB] Underground Pipelines

[Thomas Wood]

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote:
 Brian Prangle wrote:
   
 Sent: 09 November 2009 11:14 AM
 To: Talk GB
 Subject: [Talk-GB] Underground Pipelines

 We have several oil terminals just to the E of Birmingham and wandering
 around the countryside I come across loads of pipeline markers. In places
 there are enough to join them up with man-made=pipeline ways. My problem is
 how to tag the direction of flow. The oil pipeline markers have the
 direction of flow indicated on them ( gas ones don't). I've tagged the
 pipelines as oneway=yes which results in mapnik rendering little blue
 arrows in the countryside. Whilst this is to me ( who's mapped them) a good
 indicator of the presence of a buried pipeline it will probably be
 meaningless to any one else. Any opinions out there?

 

 That exactly how I'd tag them. The rendering engine needs to be a little
 cleverer and not just blindly render all oneway=yes tags.

 Cheers

 Andy
   
Pipelines explicitly work in only one direction, why not just require a 
pipeline way's direction to be that of flow and not bother with the 
redundant oneway=yes tagging?



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Re: [Talk-transit] NOVAM is back

[Thomas Wood]

I've been meaning to take a look also, I know of most of the common
OL+IE pitfalls. (trailing commas in class definitions is a nasty one
usually)

2009/10/29 Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net:

 Sadly the NOVAM doesn't seem to load in IE yet.


 Yes, that really needs to be sorted out. It is just so much less
 interesting than adding new features. If you want to, you can give it a
 try. I can send you the source code. It is just javascript which should
 run locally without a webserver. The bus stops can simply be queried
 from the mappa-mercia server. At the moment IE8 is complaining about an
 error in OpenLayers when initialising NOVAM. This, stops it from
 working. Perhaps this can be fixed relatively easily.


 I'll gladly take a look, maybe my creaky JavaScript would benefit from a
 workout.  If you send it to me or let me know the code to download I'll
 take a look. I do need to run it on an old machine, I've just zapped
 Vista so no IE on my usual laptop (blog http://chris-osm.blogspot.com/)

 Cheers, Chris

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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Thomas Wood]

On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 01:15 +1000, John Smith wrote:
 For people with good reason to be making dummy edits the dev system
 can do this and will also render pretty maps too.
 
 http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/

Half correct. It's not yet set up for rendering.


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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] This #petition needs your votes: Vote for legal use of Google's aerial imagery for #OpenStreetMap tracing!

[Thomas Wood]

Erm, its been all over the mailing lists about 2 weeks ago, it was
featured on the OpenGeoData blog, it has 1,452 positive votes as I
write this

2009/10/3 Andreas Kalsch andreaskal...@gmx.de:
 I have found this in the OpenStreetMap news, and I wondered why I have
 given the first vote for it.

 http://twitter.com/kalsch/status/4582749178

 Please spread this!

 Andi


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Re: [OSM-talk] shop=groceries?

[Thomas Wood]

2009/10/2 MP singular...@gmail.com:
 I notices few days ago user farlokko changed many shop=groceries into
 shop=greengrocer worldwide.

 The changeset is http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2562959

This has been noted on IRC, I think some reverted changes in their
area, but nobody got around to reverting the whole changeset.

 I think this change is wrong, at least for most nodes in czech
 republic - I know about nodes that I've added and only small part
 (perhaps one out of ten) of them are actually greengrocers, according
 to my knowledge. Most of them are ordinary grocery stores. Some of
 them even have no or very little selection of fruit and vegetables.

 The greengrocer is shop that sells fruits and vegetables (in czech
 language usually called Ovoce a zelenina) and no other type of food
 - according to what is at
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dgreengrocer and what
 would the name suggest.

Correct

 The groceries (I found shop=groceries at rejected features, though it
 was widely used, JOSM has it in presets, etc ..) should be used for
 shops selling general food (not only fruit and vegetables), but that
 do not sell anything other than food (like shop=convenience) and are
 small (so shop=supermarked won't fit to them) - at least this is what
 I think. In czech these are called Potraviny, or Večerka if they
 have closing time very late in night.

Again, I agree.

I have no idea why groceries should be in rejected features.
It seems it got sidelined there in the abandoned section in 2007.
There is no reason for it to be on the rejected page, indeed, if it is
widely used, why not just approve it due to precedence?
If it's used, and a default in the editors, it can hardly be rejected.
And what about the long standing shop=* definition?

 So the question is how to tag shops selling only food that are small?
 Should shop=groceries be used (and perhaps somehow added to map
 features or proposed features, or some other tag should be used?

Seems reasonable.

 And should that changeset that converted shop=groceries into
 shop=greengrocer be reverted?

The changeset in question broke data. It unilaterally changed the
definition of ~200 shops. It should be reverted.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Using osm2pgsql can I import into postgres in a projection other than Spherical Mercator (epsg:900913) like wgs84 (epsg:4326)

[Thomas Wood]

$ osm2pgsql --help
osm2pgsql SVN version 0.65-14123

Usage:
osm2pgsql [options] planet.osm
osm2pgsql [options] planet.osm.{gz,bz2}
osm2pgsql [options] file1.osm file2.osm file3.osm

This will import the data from the OSM file(s) into a PostgreSQL database
suitable for use by the Mapnik renderer

Options:
   -a|--append  Add the OSM file into the database without removing
existing data.
   -b|--bboxApply a bounding box filter on the imported data
Must be specified as: minlon,minlat,maxlon,maxlat
e.g. --bbox -0.5,51.25,0.5,51.75
   -c|--create  Remove existing data from the database. This is the
default if --append is not specified.
   -d|--databaseThe name of the PostgreSQL database to connect
to (default: gis).
   -l|--latlong Store data in degrees of latitude  longitude.
   -m|--mercStore data in proper spherical mercator (default)
   -M|--oldmerc Store data in the legacy OSM mercator format
   -E|--proj numUse projection EPSG:num
   -u|--utf8-sanitize   Repair bad UTF8 input data (present in planet
dumps prior to August 2007). Adds about 10% overhead.
   -p|--prefix  Prefix for table names (default planet_osm)
   -s|--slimStore temporary data in the database. This greatly
reduces the RAM usage but is much slower.
   -S|--style   Location of the style file. Defaults to ./default.style
   -C|--cache   Only for slim mode: Use upto this many MB for caching 
nodes
Default is 800
   -U|--usernamePostgresql user name.
   -W|--passwordForce password prompt.
   -H|--hostDatabase server hostname or socket location.
   -P|--portDatabase server port.
   -e|--expire-tiles [min_zoom-]max_zoomCreate a tile expiry list.
   -o|--expire-output filename  Output filename for expired tiles list.
   -h|--helpHelp information.
   -v|--verbose Verbose output.

Add -v to display supported projections.
Use -E to access any espg projections (usually in /usr/share/proj/epsg)


2009/10/1 John Mitchell mitchellj...@gmail.com:
 Hi,

 Your documentation states for using osm2pqsql (listed below) :
 

 Before you can use osm2pqsql for the first time with the Spherical Mercator
 projection (see below), you need to initialize configuration data for this
 projection. Do this by running the .sql file included with osm2pqsql:

 [Syntax on Windows]
 $ psql -d gis -f c:\osm2pgsql\900913.sql
 --

 Using osm2pgsql can I import into postgres in a projection other than
 Spherical Mercator (epsg:900913) like wgs84 (epsg:4326)?

 Thanks,

 John

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Re: [Talk-transit] Relations for stop areas in NaPTAN

[Thomas Wood]

2009/9/28 Jerry Clough - OSM sk53_...@yahoo.co.uk:
 I've just noticed that the relations for stop places generated in the NaPTAN
 import do not have a type. I just happened to be browsing through some
 KeepRight issues and noticed a number of relation without type ones.

 I'm sure its unimportant right now, but I wondered how the stop place/stop
 area/interchange ideas are firming up, and what I should do eventually with
 the NaPTAN data.

 Jerry

I think the type=* tag on relations is ugly, similar to the original
class=* tag proposed on every element in the early days of OSM.

class=* was dropped, as should type=* be.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Virgin Train Traces

[Thomas Wood]

That's a good idea, I'm pretty sure a good number of the modern trains
use GPS as confirmation they're allowed to open their doors, so they
must contain some of the kit to do it.

2009/9/28 John McKerrell j...@mckerrell.net:
 Hi

 Has anyone ever approached Virgin to get GPS traces from their trains?
 Would it be worth asking or do we have enough coverage? Richard Baker
 [1] is General Manager for Virgin Trains Liverpool, N Wales  Chester
 to London and is happy to receive emails so if we think it's worth
 asking I will go ahead and do so. I just asked him about getting the
 trains to update http://mapme.at/ with their current positions and
 he's just told me it would be too much work, but supplying us with a
 day's worth of existing traces (perhaps with the time anonymised)
 should be less effort than the constantly updated stream I was
 originally asking for.

 Anyway, opinions appreciated.

 John

 [1] - http://twitter.com/richard_baker

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Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN in Nottingham Notts: early use of the data

[Thomas Wood]

2009/9/24 Jerry Clough - OSM sk53_...@yahoo.co.uk:
 I've now had a few days to contemplate the Nottingham  Notts NaPTAN data,
 so I thought I'd write
 quick summary of what I've been doing. Feedback and suggestions all most
 welcome.

 Use the data to name noname roads. I managed to resolve quite a number of
 unnamed road issues thanks to the detail in the data. Using ITO's OSM Mapper
 I've saved an image of the changes made based on this information:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Image:Nottingham_NaPTAN_derived_road_names.jpg
 Add major missing roads. Alignment of bus-stops have also allowed a much
 smaller number of roads to be added. Being able to add these roads, which of
 course will all need surveying, makes planning future surveys using only OSM
 sourced data much easier. I use main roads for survey area boundaries, but
 they are also very useful for estimating survey complexity (which even OSGB
 1:25000 aren't much use).

Nice work here.

 I've merged very few bus stops as yet, just a few which I've happened to
 pass. Overall impression is that the stops in the city of Nottingham are
 accurately located. Some of the differences may be between boarding point
 and the flag location (I always try and take this). All stops which I
 encounter which are not already on OSM, where my GPS reading is close will
 just be tagged as verified, and source=naptan_import;survey.
 Details like indicator  shelter will not always be available immediately a
 bus stop is verified. Today I passed a whole slew which I waypointed, but
 I'd run out of convenient bits of paper and space on the dictaphone. I'd
 rather revisit these than try and guess which had shelters/indicators.
 Quite a few stops don't have indicators, but the infrastructure is being
 installed. I propose to tag these electronic_indicator=installation.
 One stop does not appear to exist on the ground: Charlbury Road (
 http://osm.org/go/eu8ZC@@J9-- ). A bus does seem to run along this road, but
 I suspect it is a hail-and-ride sector.


 Trams. I have been re-tagging tram stops to railway=tram_stop and changing
 name to reflect signage at the stop (usually this means removing Tram
 Stop) from the name. As there is a stop for each direction, incorporating
 the NaPTAN stuff for the NET-1 (Nottingham Tram) will take quite a lot of
 work. Most of this needs to be done: the single node on the track did not
 allow adequate representation of pedestrian access, particularly to island
 platforms. I am proceeding to rework tram stops in Basford which are not on
 a road. I am just creating two ways adjacent to the tram stop. One tram
 stop, Cinderhill, has two stop points, but it has a single platform for up
 and down direction trams, and a single track. This seems wrong, but I am
 open to correction: particularly if the data model enforces such a
 difference.

This interests me, there should have been no tram stops included in this import.
They were scheduled to be imported at a later date, with a lot of
manual massaging from me beforehand.

 Stop Points. Many stops belong to multiple stop points (presumably part of a
 hierarchical arrangement), but some of these seem to have little utility.
 For instance, stops BA82 and BA05 located at the junction of Vernon and
 Nottingham Roads, belong to stop areas 339GBA09, 339GBA10 and 339GBA24. The
 latter seems far too far away and is probably an error, but there seem to be
 large numbers of overlapping stop areas, which to me as a passenger do not
 seem logical. I'll look into this more once OPNV has rendered the data.

 Thanks to all who made this possible.

 Jerry Clough


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Re: [OSM-talk] deleted copyrighted material technically still in the database?

[Thomas Wood]

The Data Working Group have the powers to ensure the data is removed
permanently from the database and historical planet dumps.
To my knowledge, the planet dumps have been patched once in the past
to remove a serious copyvio.

2009/9/23 Donald Allwright donald_allwri...@yahoo.com:

From: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com
To: osm-talk talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Wednesday, 23 September, 2009 13:44:52
Subject: [OSM-talk] deleted copyrighted material technically still in the
 database?

Whenever we see copyrighted material in OSM, we try to remove it
immediately.  But technically, it still in the database including
history and changeset.
Am I right in my assumptions?

 grumblepedantic mode
 No-one should be removing copyrighted material from the database as a matter
 of course. We should only be removing copyrighted material if there is no
 clear evidence that the copyright holder has given permission for it to be
 used in this way. Some would argue that we should only remove it if there is
 clear evidence that the copyright holder *hasn't* given permission for it to
 be used in this way, although the OSM way is to be ultra-cautious where
 there is uncertainty.
 /pedantic mode/grumble

 Technically, it is still in the database, and a technically astute person
 could recover it. However it is not in the current version of the data that
 are provided using the default mechanisms, so it *could* be argued that OSM
 is not actively distributing it. It's similar to when people add code to a
 public repository then remove it again, it's usually still there
 somewhere. I am unaware of any legal cases in the UK (where OSM is based)
 that hinge around this residual availability, but then again I am not a
 lawyer and would certainly be interested to hear of any.

 Regards,
 Donald


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Re: [Talk-transit] Bus stops not in naptan

[Thomas Wood]

Just tag is per the normal OSM methods. physically_present=yes means
nothing on a non-naptan stop, since its assumed to exist by merely
being in the database.

2009/9/18 Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk:
 Was there an agreement reached on how to tag bus stops that aren't in naptan? 
 I verified 2 last night when out walking that I could see on the Mapnik layer 
 only to find when I got back that they were two that I added in the dim and 
 distant past (last December), so I'd verified my own additions.

 It's probable that no buses use that route at present, though I may be wrong. 
 Holland Road, Little Clacton.
 Nodes 317709575 and 317709576

 I'm guessing perhaps physically_present=yes?

 Ed



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Re: [Talk-transit] London Bridge

[Thomas Wood]

I've been pondering micro-mapping the carstop signs to mark where the
front of the train stops.
Indeed, I tried to collect this info for Wimbledon, but the GPS there
was too poor also.

2009/9/18 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org:
 2009/9/18 Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.com:

 2009/9/18 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org

 Its very difficult as London Bridge is based on about 6 layers with
 random escalators, lifts and ramps connecting it up.

 I'm thinking the building should only cover parts with a roof on and
 hence really needs cutting up.

 Yeah, agree.


 Is there a marker I can put up to say where the trains actually stop
 and that you need to move down the platform.

 Ideally, there should a way per railway track, and a way per platform (you
 can map platforms as areas, but it seems to work better as linear ways).  If
 there's a way that represents more than one track (eg two tracks running
 between island platforms, add tracks=2).

 Then, make a node on each track to represent where the trains stop. There
 can be more than one of these if there are a few stopping points (eg
 platform 1a, 1b).  Tag this railway=stop.

 All of these stopping points, plus the platforms, plus the station building,
 should then all belong to the station's relation
 (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/205097) - ideally add
 role=stop to the stop nodes.


 Ok I spouse I need stop markers for different number of carriages.
 What about the back of the train?

 Also I guess we are going to need a tag to say The last set of doors
 will not open as the platform is not long enough.

 Maybe we should have door marks, ie Rather than say the train stops
 here say where the doors should be; I've seen these marked on the
 platform in some parts of the world and parts of the Tube have
 automatic doors fixed to the platform!

 Peter.

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Re: [Talk-transit] London Bridge

[Thomas Wood]

 Maybe we should have door marks, ie Rather than say the train stops
 here say where the doors should be; I've seen these marked on the
 platform in some parts of the world and parts of the Tube have
 automatic doors fixed to the platform!

The in-tube parts of the Jubilee line extension, I doubt we're going
to map those soon - the tunnels just make it too difficult.

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Re: [Talk-GB] More NaPTAN Counties Uploaded - Bristol and Cheshire East

[Thomas Wood]

Sorry for the delay in getting back, the end of last week was marred
by not being able to get online.

Anyway, I have now imported West Yorkshire (more on this in a bit),
Torbay and Thurrock.

W.Yorks caused me a lot of problems:
1) naptan:Notes was populated, often with strings greater than 255
characters long. I hadn't counted on such verbose descriptions, so had
to include a check for it.
2) They seem to use * as a null field representation, rather than the
single space or -, which I was already filtering out. I didn't notice
this until the data was imported.
3) The code I had to parse out the local_ref from the Indicator field
was broken, truncating the last two digits off all the W.Yrks
local_refs (which are a subset of the AtcoCode, incidentally)

To solve issues 2 and 3, I had to fix the script and then do a messy
'patch import', this is why all the W.Yrks data is showing as version
2, rather than the standard version 1 for objects.
*** Those who are doing analysis of edits to the data should take note
of this. ***

2009/9/11 Mark Williams mark@blueyonder.co.uk:
 Peter Miller wrote:

 On 10 Sep 2009, at 21:00, Mark Williams wrote:
 []
 When I voted for Essex I had hoped that all of Essex might turn up,
 but as far as I can see it's excluded Thurrock, a little unitary
 authority in the S.W. corner - which is, naturally, the bit I wanted...


 To be clear, the import request log is by administrative county.
 Thurrock unfortunately for you is only in the ceremonial county of
 Essex, for administrative purposes it is a separately place. If you add
 your signature to Thurrock in the list then I am sure it will be imported!

 Hmm. Done.. I wish I'd known earlier that it wasn't included though,
 because I'm going to have moved before it gets much attention. Oh well.

 I was a bit confused by relations poking into Thurrock which made it
 look part-done, so there has been some misplaced patience happening!

 Thanks.

 Mark


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Re: [Talk-transit] Should railway station relations includebusstops?

[Thomas Wood]

One point,
naptan:verified=no is designed to be deleted, rather than changed to yes
In this case maintaining the naptan tags whilst including other stops
will be misleading when comparing how data is changed in the future.
Maybe change the StopAreaCode to be a semicolon delimited list of the
StopAreaCodes you moved the points from?

It is my intention this week to focus on PT tagging in London. I need
to dip myself into editing the map by hand again, I've been stuck in
code land for too long.

2009/9/14 Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.com:

 2009/9/10 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com


 It does appear to be a little complex around Waterloo and possibly wrong?

 Okay, so I've done a little 'tidying up'...

 There is now a single relation
 (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/201171) which contains all the
 bus stops near the station which are called 'Waterloo', or which are
 directly outside the station (node 277675366 seems to have been mapped by a
 user, rather than from the NaPTAN import, so is possibly a duplicate).

 The following 'local_ref' codes are included: A,B,C,F,H,J,K,N,S,V,W -
 indicating that there are quite a few missing (presuming they go from A to
 at least W without skipping any letters?)

 There are also 2 NaPTAN-created relations which now no longer have any
 members, http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/201160 and
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/199517 as I've moved all of
 these to the previous relation. The StopAreaCodes seem to be different
 (though only by the last letter) - so I don't know if these means that they
 have some administrative difference? What should we do with these relations?


 The train station is a separate relation
 (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/238792), which includes the
 building (as role=outline), a few shops, and now the ex-International
 platforms 20-25, (as ways, with stop points, alongside ways for each of the
 tracks). Platforms 1-19 are still to do... :-)

 The tube station is yet another relation
 (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/238793), which just contains 4
 stop nodes on each of the tube line ways.

 I suggest that each of these 3 relations should belong to a parent
 'Waterloo' relation, but I can't seem to currently do this within Potlatch.
 Can somebody else have a go (does JOSM support this?)

 Any other suggestions for improvements are welcome (particularly from people
 who live a bit closer...)

 Frankie





 The stop areas you refer to have type codes which are described in the
 NaPTAN schema document, but I am not clear that it is at all correct based
 on a quick look I also notice that many of the areas have duplicate names
 which also makes it harder to sort out.
 I believe that there is another relation in NaPTAN for the station that
 has not yet been imported into NaPTAN which makes it even more complicated.
 Let's use Waterloo as a test case for OSM. Bank/Monument would also be
 useful because it is given as an example in the NaPTAN documentation. Lets
 also focus on the stations given in the IFOPT documentation examples.
 Incidentally Waterloo is used as an example thoughout the IFOPT
 documentation.



 Possibly we should have a mapping party there (I passed though it
 yesterday as it happens).

 --
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 Experience Designer, Rattle
 0114 2706977
 http://www.rattlecentral.com


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Re: [Talk-GB] A new Flickr group for old out-of-copyright OS Maps

[Thomas Wood]

2009/9/13 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com:

 On 13 Sep 2009, at 22:41, Thomas Wood wrote:

 These maps are already rectified of course, it's usually good to
 convert the OS coordinates to Lat/Lons and then set the grid corners
 as reference points.

 But my photographs of the maps will have introduced some tilt and other
 distortions, so it does need some control points. Possibly you are saying
 that I can calculate the control points from the OS grid references for the
 corners. That may indeed be true.

Yes, it is a shame that they're too large to be scanned at once, it'd
make for a much better image. You seem to have achieved fairly
reasonable results with a camera though.

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Re: [Talk-transit] Should railway station relations include bus stops?

[Thomas Wood]

NaPTAN provides relations for stations (or at least it should, I've
yet to check), in most cases, this will contain the station node, and
entrance nodes, and child relations eg, the stops outside of it.
I've yet to import them, but I do have all the backreferences stored to do so.

On 10/09/2009, Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.com wrote:
 Hi all,

 Last question of the night from me.

 I've been creating relations for railway stations (see
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_train_stations) and just
 noticed, when doing Marylebone (
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/238413), that there's already a
 Naptan-created relation for the bus stop (
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/199421).

 Should these two be merged? Or are bus stop areas and train stations
 conceptually distinct?

 Frankie

 P.S I note that the Naptan relation doesn't have a type=* tag. This should
 probably be type=site?

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Re: [OSM-talk] wikipedia:fr edits

[Thomas Wood]

2009/9/9 Pieren pier...@gmail.com:
 On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Lized...@billiau.net wrote:
 copied from rss feed for diary entries
 for attention of list


 Looks like there's been a lot of wikipedia:fr based edits from
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/paddiloo/edits -- is this now ok?
 [Don't have access to mailing list atm]


 This person creates place nodes based on coordinates from
 wikipedia:fr. But these coordinates are coming from the IGN, the
 french OS and their license for this dataset is not compatible with
 OSM license (commercial use not allowed without permission).
 I contact him/her to inform that what he/she is doing is not allowed.

 Pieren


In that case, the coordinates should surely not be in wikipedia either?

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wiki OpenLayer live examples get 404 not found

[Thomas Wood]

My apologies, I meant to change the links.
Try errol.openstreetmap.org/...

2009/9/8 Ulf Lamping ulf.lamp...@googlemail.com:
 Hi!

 The openlayer wiki examples in [1] links to none existing example files
 at [2].

 Have the files moved somewhere else or are they gone due to the recent
 dev server changes?

 Regards, ULFL


 [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenLayers
 [2] http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~edgemaster/OpenLayersExamples/


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wiki OpenLayer live examples get 404 not found

[Thomas Wood]

2009/9/8 Ulf Lamping ulf.lamp...@googlemail.com:
 Tom Hughes schrieb:

 On 08/09/09 00:24, Thomas Wood wrote:

 My apologies, I meant to change the links.
 Try errol.openstreetmap.org/...

 Please don't do that, both because it doesn't work and because we don't
 have to get people used to referring to the machine by that name.

 You jumped the gun a bit on transferring your home directory to the new
 machine but I'll see if I can patch things up...

 ... or are they gone due to the recent dev server changes ;-)


 No need to hurry.

 I've just stumbled over the problematic OpenLayers examples, as there's
 currently some discussions going on about the OpenLayer topic on the german
 ML.

 Just let us know once the dust settled on these server changes, so we can
 fix the wiki examples ...

 Regards, ULFL


Yes, the wiki examples have been a little neglected for a while.
I should have a look at bringing them up to date.

Tom has now fixed errol's configuration, and after a DNS refresh,
everything should just work again.

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Re: [Talk-GB] More NaPTAN Counties Uploaded - Bristol and Cheshire East

[Thomas Wood]

2009/9/6 Richard Bullock rb...@cantab.net:
 Hello Thomas,

 I am the right one for Cheshire East!

 I was out today and I thought I'd take a photo of one bus stop to see how
 the reference numbers on the bus stop compare with the import data.

This info will be useful to put on
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Local_schemes

 The bus stop had MA0538 on the sign.

 I went to NaPTAN and this one said 0600MA0539

 the one with MA0538 was the one on the opposite side of the road.

 Now my question is; is this likely to be;

 1. a council error - e.g. the contractors have mixed up the signs when
 putting them up
 2. a NaPTAN error - e.g. the numbers have been entered into the database the
 wrong way round for some reason
 3. Something else?

Who knows is the simple answer.

 I'm pretty sure it can't be that the positional errors have led to both
 being shown on the wrong side of the road as the naptan:bearing tags look
 right.

 Are we reporting errors we find to councils/DfT etc.?

 Richard


People on the list have access to the official NaPTAN error report
tool, so if required the error report can be pushed back upstream to
the council to review. I'm not sure on our policy to report back
errors at the moment.
(In fact I'm not sure if the appropriate people from the DfT are
reading talk-gb either, so I'll copy this to talk-transit too... which
I didn't want to clutter further)

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[Talk-GB] More NaPTAN Counties Uploaded - Bristol and Cheshire East

[Thomas Wood]

I'm following the Be Bold motto, and am now uploading the remaining
NaPTAN counties that have been requested.
I'll probably do two or three at a time, following the list
alphabetically, possibly trying to avoid importing counties next to
each other together.

Tonight I've uploaded Bristol and Cheshire East.

To those CC'd into this mail,
a) I hope I've picked the right people,
b) Get merging! details of the process are here -
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Surveying_and_Merging_NaPTAN_and_OSM_data

(I'm posting these only on talk-gb now, since the talk-transit list
should return to focusing on transit data, rather than the naptan
import)

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Re: [Talk-transit] local_ref problem around Anerley in NAPTAN

[Thomas Wood]

2009/9/2 Péter Connell p...@connell.plus.com:
 Isn't different names what name/loc_name/alt_name/nat_name c. are for?

 Where they differ I would probably prefer

 name: what it says on the flag e.g. Woodhouse Street Holborn Terrace
 loc_name: the most common name people/bus drivers/timetables would use
 e.g. Charing Cross Shops
 alt_name: (where applicable) where timetables show something different
 still e.g. old name of pubs, pubs that have closed etc. (though the old
 King's Head could be a loc_name I guess)
 nat_name: what it says in NaPTAN

Nah, just use naptan:CommonName for what NaPTAN says, as it is
imported, there's no point changing it, since it wont make any
difference upstream.
All the other suggestions are good.
In most cases CommonName and name should be the same, but TfL just
don't like us...


 though obviously where name is the same as some of these you wouldn't
 use them.

 I would tend to assume all this data is worth capturing rather than just
 deferring to NaPTAN's superiority as it is buggy in some places... (and
 it its purpose is really for helping PTI pros identify bus stops rather
 than for passengers?)

 Would appreciate anyone's views

 Péter

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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal

[Thomas Wood]

2009/9/2 Richard Bullock rb...@cantab.net:
I'll go over what the mapper did in Ireland, which to me is the
clearest case of (at least) reckless incompetence (an ill that can be
cured through communication, but only with two-way communication):

* All motorway under construction marked complete. Including adding
amateurish (wrong way, driving on right) stubs to make the pieces
connect.

* Most long-distance dual-carriageways up-tagged to motorways,
including the changing of refs (e.g. N7-M7)

* Slip roads on the up-classified sections retagged to motorway (not
motorway_link)

In all, about 2-200km of road were retagged with no basis whatsoever


 But some dual carriageway *has* been upgraded to motorway recently  - August
 28th - 294km worth - (including some sections under construction)

 See http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/10193-PRESS_RELEASE1_-0.DOC

 Having said that, I reviewed some changes done in Derbyshire in the UK and
 they looked horribly wrong. Didn't seem to move any nodes, but road numbers
 were changed, road classifications changed without any clear indication as
 to why. Some highway=primary reclassified as highway=secondary with
 fabricated B-road numbers. Some fairly minor roads upgraded to
 highway=secondary or highway=primary, again with fabricated route numbers.
 I'll be happy to revert these particular edits.

 Most of the edits are not in areas I know well enough. Most seem to be in
 Iceland.

 Richard

Please leave the ways untouched for now, it'll be easier to revert the
whole changeset in the long run.

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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal

[Thomas Wood]

2009/9/2 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:
 2009/9/2 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com:
 I spoke to members of the Data Working Group recently and it seems clear to
 me (and them) that dealing with vandalism is in general a community problem,
 not their problem. They are mainly about dealing with those situations where
 a legal response is required such as copyright violation or where an
 official email might help.

 this sounds reasonable

 Banning people is a possible last-resort,

 +1. Even if it might not be very powerful (just create another account
 and here you are again)

 but
 this does not deal with removing graffiti or spotting it in the first place
 which should be done by the community.

 +1

 I believe that monitoring of graffiti (which this is)

 no, IMHO that's no more graffiti but it's removing the covers of
 manholes, maybe even poisoning the drinking water reserve ;-). It is
 too big to remove manually. If like throwing a lot of
 paint-cluster-bombs over wide areas. Think of 880 ways in Ireland:
 that's too much to ask the community to do it manually. Reverts at
 that scale (if they are really 100% useless or harmful) should be
 dealt with in a more professional way than hitting 880 times h in
 potlatch.

 Not everybody is able to run revert.pl like Richard suggested, that's
 why some members of the community started this thread: to ask the more
 experienced/enabled community members for help in doing so.

 cheers,
 Martin

The thread was started for consensus on whether the edits were
vandalism, and what should be done.
Now we're at a stage that we've confirmed it is 100% harmful, we can
get them reverted.

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[OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Thomas Wood]

Hi list,
Attention was drawn to the OSM user RR8 last night on IRC. It appears
that they have been producing /apparently/ deconstructive edits at a
high frequency since late Saturday evening (server time).
Edits primarily are the reclassification of highways to a different
level. This has occured frequently in the East Midlands (often
including a change of reference number that cannot be confirmed from
other sources), places in Ireland where under-construction motorways
have been marked as opened, and a few reclassifications elsewhere,
most notably Iceland.

The edits appear to look constructive, but are more likely to be
destructive. Ideally, someone local to the areas in question should
check a few of the changes, or we could get people from the mailing
list to consider the edits as a whole to decide what's to be done
about them.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/RR8/edits

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Re: [OSM-talk] We need a report spam button for diary entries... and to ban accounts repeatedly spamming...

[Thomas Wood]

Accounts spamming are banned.
They're usually caught in good time by our master admin.

2009/8/28 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com:
 More diary spam:

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mariann/diary/7691

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Re: [Talk-GB] NAPTAN update?

[Thomas Wood]

2009/8/26 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com:

 On 20 Aug 2009, at 13:21, Thomas Wood wrote:

 2009/8/17 Thomas Wood grand.edgemas...@gmail.com:

 I'll start the imports tomorrow. I think it'd be wise to spread them
 around the country so one group of people aren't entirely swamped with
 several counties.

 As such, I'll start with Hull, Greater London and Suffolk, mostly
 picked based on the impression of eagerness for this to happen in
 those regions to begin.

 Shall we continue with Hull and Suffolk now?


 I see that there are another 16 counties where a NaPTAN import has been
 requested[1]. Personally I have found the Suffolk data to be very helpful
 and would recommend that we get on with it. There is a Baslidon mapping
 party in Essex coming up and it would be great for them to have the data in
 first.

Yes, yesterday I was fixing a bug in the software that caused some of
the Suffolk StopAreas to not upload at all, they will be going live
today (there's not very many).

 We did spot one gremlin in the source data in the formatting of change
 versioning which resulted in a small number of excess stops being imported.
 We have discussed this with the DfT/Traveline and they will get it fixed at
 some point but lets not wait for that. Can you do a work round Thomas? If
 not I would suggest we get on with it anyway as any issues will be picked up
 on the ground survey anyway.

I am not able to work around it, as the bug is in the source data I
downloaded. On a review of more recent data, it appears that it was
just that one download that had the issue. Downloading the data again
should rectify the problem for future downloads.

 Am I right in assuming we are only importing bus stops on this pass? I
 notice that some ferry terminals were not imported in Suffolk - not a
 problem but it would be good to get the railways entrances, ferry terminals
 tram stops and indeed the ATCO codes for railways stations etc in at some
 point.

Yes, we were going to do the rest in a separate pass.
Regarding recent discussions on accuracy of railway station data, eg
(http://googlemapsfail.tumblr.com/post/170424479/only-one-of-these-is-really-a-railway-station),
I'm assuming this data is sourced from NaPTAN, so care will be needed
with that import.

 [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Request_for_Import


 Regards,


 Peter



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Re: [Talk-GB] NAPTAN update?

[Thomas Wood]

2009/8/26 Thomas Wood grand.edgemas...@gmail.com:
 2009/8/26 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com:

 On 20 Aug 2009, at 13:21, Thomas Wood wrote:

 2009/8/17 Thomas Wood grand.edgemas...@gmail.com:

 I'll start the imports tomorrow. I think it'd be wise to spread them
 around the country so one group of people aren't entirely swamped with
 several counties.

 As such, I'll start with Hull, Greater London and Suffolk, mostly
 picked based on the impression of eagerness for this to happen in
 those regions to begin.

 Shall we continue with Hull and Suffolk now?


 I see that there are another 16 counties where a NaPTAN import has been
 requested[1]. Personally I have found the Suffolk data to be very helpful
 and would recommend that we get on with it. There is a Baslidon mapping
 party in Essex coming up and it would be great for them to have the data in
 first.

 Yes, yesterday I was fixing a bug in the software that caused some of
 the Suffolk StopAreas to not upload at all, they will be going live
 today (there's not very many).

At least I would have, if the dev server was being co-operative. I
can't install a python module that the new revision of the upload
script requires.

Regarding remaining counties, Essex is definately a priority, we may
as well just upload the remaining counties as and when we can.
(Which'll probably be when the new dev server is up with a sane python
environment)

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Re: [Talk-GB] NAPTAN update?

[Thomas Wood]

2009/8/26 Mark Williams mark@blueyonder.co.uk:
 Thomas Wood wrote:
 []

 Regarding remaining counties, Essex is definitely a priority, we may
 as well just upload the remaining counties as and when we can.
 (Which'll probably be when the new dev server is up with a sane python
 environment)


 Good, thanks for that - I am hoping to go round my bit of the world  check
 them out as I didn't do them on my Grand GPS Survey 2 years ago, so having
 them as targets may provoke some activity :)

 Also, yes they will be nice for the Basildon Mapping Party, it will be a
 strange experience to have residential areas, parks   bus stops but no
 roads on the Garmin ;)

 Mark

Output 7568 StopPoints and 3305 StopAreas
Essex has now been uploaded in
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2273335
Have fun with the data, any problems or queries can be reported back here.

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Re: [Talk-GB] [Spam] Re: NAPTAN update?

[Thomas Wood]

Suffolk:
Output 6216 StopPoints and 1755 StopAreas
Hull:
Output 1299 StopPoints and 0 StopAreas

Upload will begin shortly.

2009/8/20 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com:

 On 20 Aug 2009, at 13:21, Thomas Wood wrote:

 2009/8/17 Thomas Wood grand.edgemas...@gmail.com:

 I'll start the imports tomorrow. I think it'd be wise to spread them
 around the country so one group of people aren't entirely swamped with
 several counties.

 As such, I'll start with Hull, Greater London and Suffolk, mostly
 picked based on the impression of eagerness for this to happen in
 those regions to begin.

 Shall we continue with Hull and Suffolk now?

 Yes please


 Peter


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Re: [Talk-GB] [Spam] Re: NAPTAN update?

[Thomas Wood]

Hull is in as expected.
I'm having a few unexpected issues with completing the upload for the
Suffolk StopAreas, the remainder are being uploaded slowly.

2009/8/20 Thomas Wood grand.edgemas...@gmail.com:
 Suffolk:
 Output 6216 StopPoints and 1755 StopAreas
 Hull:
 Output 1299 StopPoints and 0 StopAreas

 Upload will begin shortly.

 2009/8/20 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com:

 On 20 Aug 2009, at 13:21, Thomas Wood wrote:

 2009/8/17 Thomas Wood grand.edgemas...@gmail.com:

 I'll start the imports tomorrow. I think it'd be wise to spread them
 around the country so one group of people aren't entirely swamped with
 several counties.

 As such, I'll start with Hull, Greater London and Suffolk, mostly
 picked based on the impression of eagerness for this to happen in
 those regions to begin.

 Shall we continue with Hull and Suffolk now?

 Yes please


 Peter


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Re: [Talk-transit] NPTG locality viewer

[Thomas Wood]

2009/8/17 Christoph Böhme christ...@b3e.net:
 Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk schrieb:
 In case it helps anyone else, the tool doesn't seem to work for me
 on IE8 but does in Firefox. In both I can zoom in on say central
 Birmingham, but only in Firefox to letters on coloured backgrounds
 appear to allow me to select a locality.

 Sorry, I should have mentioned that the viewer is not working with IE8.
 I tried to get it to work in IE8 but I gave up after noticing that the
 errors are apparently in the prototype and Openlayers libraries. Also,
 for some reason the IE8 produces completely different error messages on
 different computers.
 If there is some interest in using NPTG viewer on IE8 I can try fixing
 the problems.

OpenLayers functions correctly with IE8 but I still had great fun
getting the Sutton Green Map site to work correctly in all browsers I
tested for (IE6-8 and Firefox). (http://map.oneplanetsutton.org/)

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Re: [Talk-GB] NAPTAN update?

[Thomas Wood]

2009/8/10 Shaun McDonald sh...@shaunmcdonald.me.uk:
 Hi Tom,

 This is being discussed on the talk-transit mailing list:
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit

 Thomas Wood who is doing the import is on holiday for a couple of weeks at
 the moment if I remember right.

I was, I'm back now.

 Progress status will be available on
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Request_for_Import

I'll start the imports tomorrow. I think it'd be wise to spread them
around the country so one group of people aren't entirely swamped with
several counties.

As such, I'll start with Hull, Greater London and Suffolk, mostly
picked based on the impression of eagerness for this to happen in
those regions to begin.

 Shaun

 On 10 Aug 2009, at 09:52, Tom Chance wrote:


 Hi there,

 Looking at the wiki and talk-transit archives, it looks like we're close
 to
 imports for the rest of the country after the successful trial in the West
 Midlands.

 It would be really helpful if somebody could notify this list when more
 imports begin, and even lay out a timetable. I'm sure this will happen
 anyway, but I found myself worrying because I haven't heard much about it
 for what seems like ages.

 I'm really looking forward to London being imported, it's going to be a
 fun
 bit of work checking all the bus stops in the areas I've mapped.

 Regards,
 Tom

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[Talk-transit] NaPTAN Import

[Thomas Wood]

I think all outstanding coding issues have now been dealt with.
There's one minor tagging issue to address - should the source tag be
on the data or changesets.

Otherwise, a test upload of the Surrey data is visible here -
http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/394
Comments welcomed.

We're then ready to begin uploading to the main database.

I will fetch a fresh copy of the NaPTAN data now, as agreed earlier last month.

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Re: [Talk-transit] Naptan import

[Thomas Wood]

2009/7/30 Christoph Böhme christ...@b3e.net:
 Thomas Wood grand.edgemas...@gmail.com schrieb:
 2009/7/29 Christoph Böhme christ...@b3e.net:
  I transformed the Plusbus Zones into a josm-file (XSLT is cool :-).
  Thomas can you import it using the naptan-user if no one objects to
  the tagging scheme?
 
  http://www.mappa-mercia.org/nptg/plusbuszones.osm.gz
 
  Cheers,
  Christoph
 
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 That looks fine, the only issue is that none of the polygons are
 closed!

 Oh, good that you noticed this. I fixed the file and uploaded it again.

 Christoph


I have run JOSM's validator over it to clean up some duplicate ways,
and the more obviously incorrect polygon geometries (West Mids had a
weird doubleback by the look of it) a few have overlapping segments,
but I've chosen to ignore their 'errorness'.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2008301

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Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN Import

[Thomas Wood]

2009/8/1 Christoph Böhme christ...@b3e.net:
 Thomas Wood grand.edgemas...@gmail.com schrieb:

 2009/8/1 Christoph Böhme christ...@b3e.net:
  Thomas Wood grand.edgemas...@gmail.com schrieb:
  Otherwise, a test upload of the Surrey data is visible here -
  http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/394
  Comments welcomed.
 
  Could it be that the tags are missing? All the nodes I have looked
  at are empty
  (http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/416977, for example)

 Ooops, I linked the wrong changeset!
 http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/389 was my intent.

 That looks much better :-) I noticed that the bus stops are all tagged
 with highway=bus_stop. Is this intentional? I thought this should
 depend on what people wished for their local area.

 Cheers,
 Christoph


It is optional, by default I test with it enabled, it requires an
extra command-line option to disable.
So far most people have chosen for it to be on though -
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Request_for_Import

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Re: [Talk-transit] Naptan import

[Thomas Wood]

2009/7/29 Thomas Wood grand.edgemas...@gmail.com:
 2009/7/29 Christoph Böhme christ...@b3e.net:
[snip]
 - Alternative names (e.g. welsh names)

 NaPTAN includes this too, I was going to check whether the
 functionality was required as we started on Welsh/Scottish regions, I
 can't remember the reason for not implementing it immediately other
 than awkwardness of the way I was parsing.
[snip]

I've now done a check on the Feb NaPTAN source files, there are no
language sections that seriously need to be considered, there are only
two regions that used them - East Sussex and Perth  Kinross.

The East Sussex reference was Indicator
xml:lang=gaadj/Indicator, which is obviously rubbish.

All the Perth  Kinross references were on the Name element, and
referenced /Welsh/, a few examples:
Name xml:lang=cySouth Street/Name
Name xml:lang=cyPost Office/Name
Name xml:lang=cyMain Entrance/Name
A look through shows others, such as road names, but none that are
obviously in Welsh.

Thus it's fairly safe to disregard the functionality NaPTAN provides
for alternative languages at this point.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Red Routes

[Thomas Wood]

Of course, before red routes there were clearways?
And don't forget double yellows too...

2009/7/29 Jonathan Bennett openstreet...@jonno.cix.co.uk:
 Brian Prangle wrote:
  If  it's a red route I'd suggest red_route=yes

 traffic_restriction=red_route ?

 or maybe

 traffic_restriction=no_stopping

 I'm not a fan of key=yes/no tags if they can be avoided -- they don't
 explain what key means a lot of the time.




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Re: [Talk-transit] Naptan import

[Thomas Wood]

2009/7/26 Christoph Böhme christ...@b3e.net:
 I am happy to continue working on the NPTG import if Thomas does not
 mind.

Yes, that's fine, NPTG isn't really an interest of mine, as I think I
insinuated on the wikipage writeup of the format.

2009/7/27 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com:
 My vote is to get on with it - the NPTG and NaPTAN imports are different
 enough that they can be handled separately. If Thomas focuses on the NaPTAN
 import (or hands it over to someone) and you do the NPTG then I think we
 will get there faster.

I am willing to continue. I've just spent the past few days fixing and
refactoring the bulk_upload.py script.
I just need to write a wrapper for it to simplify the NaPTAN uploads,
and we're good to go.

 Would it be worth creating a NPTG Import wiki page and an NPTG Import user
 to do the actual import - ie, keep the documentation and audit trail for the
 two imports separate?

So far they're quite closely linked on the wiki, a separate NPTG
Import user would probably make sense.

2009/7/22 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com:
 Do we need to set up a wiki page where people can request imports
 for their authority or are we going to do it without that?

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Request_for_Import

I need to flesh out what the column headings mean.

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Re: [Talk-transit] Naptan import

[Thomas Wood]

2009/7/22 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com:

 On 20 Jul 2009, at 14:35, Thomas Wood wrote:

 2009/7/20 Peter J Stoner stone...@mytraveline.info:

 In message on 20 Jul 2009,  Ed Loach wrote:

 I'm assuming that the naptan import when it happens will be as at a
 certain point in time, and won't include any new bus stops since that
 time?

 I'm asking because a bus route has changed in the last week or so that
 now passes my house both ways instead of just one way and rather than
 add bus stops on the other side of the road they've added a taped
 message Buses stop here and opposite to each of the existing bus
 stops on the road.



 Ed


 If the Transport authority has done its job properly then we will
 expect to see Custom and Practice stops appear in NaPTAN opposite the

 snip




 The refreshed data is yet to be downloaded, so depending on the
 responsiveness of the LA, the stops may be in there by the time I get
 around to finalising the import.


 I am conscious that it is now over 6 months since the data was offered. I do
 realise that a lot of technical work and familiarisation has been taking
 place but it would be great to be able to complete the import and move on.

 I am also aware that there is a 50K place gazetteer sitting there untouched
 - last week I was adding villages in Norfolk by hand and the data is sitting
 available in NPTG.

It is, we need to start thinking about what we can do with it.

 Do you need help with the NaPTAN import or are you just about ready to do
 the work? Do we need to set up a wiki page where people can request imports
 for their authority or are we going to do it without that?


I've been putting off working on it for a while as slightly more
interesting projects seem to keep coming my way.
Anyway, I'm now checking that the new tools that will be used to
upload the data that have been written for 0.6 will meet our needs.
For this I'm doing a few uploads to a dev server to see what the
imported data looks like with regards the created changesets etc.
I'm probably going to have to modify the uploader to record object ids
that are being stored for missing references to stop areas.

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Re: [Talk-transit] Naptan import

[Thomas Wood]

2009/7/22 Thomas Wood grand.edgemas...@gmail.com:
 2009/7/22 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com:

 On 20 Jul 2009, at 14:35, Thomas Wood wrote:

 2009/7/20 Peter J Stoner stone...@mytraveline.info:

 In message on 20 Jul 2009,  Ed Loach wrote:

 I'm assuming that the naptan import when it happens will be as at a
 certain point in time, and won't include any new bus stops since that
 time?

 I'm asking because a bus route has changed in the last week or so that
 now passes my house both ways instead of just one way and rather than
 add bus stops on the other side of the road they've added a taped
 message Buses stop here and opposite to each of the existing bus
 stops on the road.



 Ed


 If the Transport authority has done its job properly then we will
 expect to see Custom and Practice stops appear in NaPTAN opposite the

 snip




 The refreshed data is yet to be downloaded, so depending on the
 responsiveness of the LA, the stops may be in there by the time I get
 around to finalising the import.


 I am conscious that it is now over 6 months since the data was offered. I do
 realise that a lot of technical work and familiarisation has been taking
 place but it would be great to be able to complete the import and move on.

 I am also aware that there is a 50K place gazetteer sitting there untouched
 - last week I was adding villages in Norfolk by hand and the data is sitting
 available in NPTG.

 It is, we need to start thinking about what we can do with it.

 Do you need help with the NaPTAN import or are you just about ready to do
 the work? Do we need to set up a wiki page where people can request imports
 for their authority or are we going to do it without that?


 I've been putting off working on it for a while as slightly more
 interesting projects seem to keep coming my way.
 Anyway, I'm now checking that the new tools that will be used to
 upload the data that have been written for 0.6 will meet our needs.
 For this I'm doing a few uploads to a dev server to see what the
 imported data looks like with regards the created changesets etc.
 I'm probably going to have to modify the uploader to record object ids
 that are being stored for missing references to stop areas.

I have just done a fairly thorough review of both the 0.6 API bulk
upload scripts. Neither works fully as expected.
I have three options, fix the python one, finish the php one, or port
the 0.5 perl one...

The first option is currently looking most tempting.

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Re: [OSM-talk] changesets not closed in time?

[Thomas Wood]

Its normal.
Potlatch does not tell the server when its session ends.
The changeset times out after 1 hour of no edits.

2009/7/20 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:
 Today I was editing with Potlatch (edit with save), then saving (all
 edits were saved) and closing the browser window. But 20 Minutes later
 the changeset was still displayed as still editing in the
 changeset-list. Is this a bug or is it normal (i.e. takes some time
 after closing to recognize) or even desired behaviour?

 cheers,
 Martin

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Re: [Talk-GB] Estimating coverage

[Thomas Wood]

2009/7/19 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org:
 Hi,

 Peter Miller wrote:
 There is a relation for 'London Boroughs'. I wondered if we should produced
 one for 'Regions of England', and 'ceremonial counties of England' and
 add the appropriate relations to them.

 Generally, relations that just serve the purpose of collecting things
 are frowned upon. Relations are not meant to be a substitute for
 categories.

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Relations_are_not_Categories

...

 Here is the 'London Boroughs' relation as an example. I like the map
 that is produced from it.

 Yes, I have the impression that people often do collection relations
 because they enjoy being able to simply request a relation/full OSM
 document from the API and retrieve all the objects, rather than having
 to find a working XAPI server and formulate a query. However this is
 *really* something that should be done at search time and not in the
 database - if we had grouping relations for everything that someone
 possibly wants so search for... hm, ok, the slippery slope argument
 doesn't help.

 Bye
 Frederik

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When I created the relation (end of 2008), I was doing a mass tidyup
of London Borough boundaries, I primarily created the relation so I
could quickly pull up a neighbouring boundary relation in JOSM when I
found another section of it.
I was idly wondering if it could be turned into an is_in relation for
some point for the Greater London region, even though it is implicit
through the Greater London polygon (which may or may not be complete).

Thanks for raising my attention to this, since I've now discovered
that SteveC deleted the boundary relation for Tower Hamlets in Feb
09 I think it's time for another tidyup session...

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Re: [OSM-talk] How to get my blog included into the planet (blogs.openstreetmap.org)?

[Thomas Wood]

2009/7/18  sb-lis...@gmx-topmail.de:
 Hi,

 I'm an openstreetmap user (SB79) and I write about openstreetmap on my blog 
 regularly. I would love to see my blog

  http://osmbonnblog.blogspot.com/

 included into the openstreetmap planet (blogs.openstreetmap.org).

 Frederik Ramm and Peter Doerrie told me, that Shaun McDonald would be the 
 right person to contact.

That is correct.

 However, having sent two emails during the last weeks and getting no response 
 nor bounce message, I would love to learn by other openstreetmap contributors 
 and blog authors, how they got their blog included into the planet.

 Best,
 Stephan
 --
 GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT!
 Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01

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Re: [Talk-transit] West Mids Bus Routes

[Thomas Wood]

2009/7/1 Christoph Boehme christ...@b3e.net:
 Hi!

 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote:

 FYI, I'm only adding the routes in for sections where I've already verified
 the NaPTAN bus stops and added the route refs displayed at the stop.

 I it might be helpful here that I recently updated the Naptanmerger (now
 renamed to Novam as Brian suggested) and it now displays all nodes
 within the UK with naptan:AtcoCode or highway=bus_stop set. It also
 indicates the completeness of the tagging by using different colours.

 http://www.mappa-mercia.org/cgi-bin/novam.wsgi/

 The current database dump is from 29/06/09 and I am currently testing a
 script that will apply the hourly diffs to the database. This will
 hopefully ready for use on the server within the next weeks.

 The tool now has most of its client-side functions implemented. Though,
 there are a couple things missing or not working properly (especially
 the selection/marking state of the icons on the map). You can play
 around with it as much as you like since no actual changes are made on
 the server yet.

 There are three hidden functions:

 1. Shift+Clicking on a bus stop selects this bus stop instead of marking

    it for merging when another bus stop is selected at the moment.
 2. Control+Clicking on images (none in the database at the moment)
    selects the position of the image.
 3. The currently selected bus stop can be moved on the map to change its

    position.

 Cheers,
 Christoph

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Very nice, can't review it in full now, since I'm away until Monday.
However, I think it'd be good if you could link to the osm.org browse
view for the node, or show the raw tagging so people can get an idea
how it handles various tags?
Also, what do the colours mean?

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-transit] Heritage Railways

[Thomas Wood]

NaPTAN does include some of the heritage railways in the metro section
of the database, any missing points could be possibly filled from this
source.

2009/6/28 Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.com:
 Hi all,

 I've spent some time this weekend going through the list of heritage
 railways:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_Kingdom_Railways/Independent_and_minor_railways
 and adding route relations to them. I'm about 50% of the way through so far.

 Some points/questions to the group:

 * I've been adding both the ways and the stations to the relation - the
 stations as role=stop.  Is this correct?
 * Am not sure whether the name should still be attached to the ways or not.
 On the one hand, it's a lot of duplication, and in some cases, the way might
 have a different name from the route (eg it might be a bridge, with its own
 name). On the other hand, having the name attached to the ways might be
 useful for renderers.
 * I've given all the routes the name of the railway (eg The Bluebell
 Railway) rather than the end-to-end name that is common for mainline routes
 (eg London-Brighton).
 * I've added the website address of the railway to the relation in a few
 cases (using url=).
 * There are a few cases where the actual track extends beyond the final
 station (eg used for turning the train around, or as an occasional link to
 the National Rail network). I haven't included these bits within the
 relation, on the presumption that they aren't part of the 'route' that
 passengers actually experience.
 * Is there any additional information that could be captured at a relation
 level? Wikipedia reference? Months of operation? Operator? (this is often
 the same as the name)

 Finally, if someone fancies doing a nice rendering of the UK clearly showing
 all of the heritage railway lines (perhaps with just terrain contours as a
 background), then I'll offer up to GBP 20 for a print of it... :-)

 Frankie

 --
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 0114 2706977
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Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN and the new PT tagging schema

[Thomas Wood]

2009/6/24 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com:

 On 24 Jun 2009, at 18:20, Thomas Wood wrote:

 2009/6/24 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com:

 Can I suggest that we treat this import and any final tagging as a
 separate
 issue on separate timeline from the NaPTAN import just so long as no
 important information in the NaPTAN DB is lost in the process.

 Can you clarify what you meant by this?
 Is it essentially that we don't care about the new tagging schema and
 get on with the import?


 Yes. I would suggest that to avoid trying to agree a new tagging arrangement
 in a hurry prior to the import and keep the two projects separate. Firstly
 we import the rest of NaPTAN as agreed in the original discussion, and then
 secondly we agree a harmonised tagging arrangement of some sort and convert
 all the data to this new format (including the NaPTAN import).

 btw, did you mean this to be off-list? Feel free to copy the thread to the
 list if it was a mistake.



 Regards,


 Peter

Ok, then to get on with the import, we need to review the errors we
made with the Birmingham trail, and to get their views on the data
review process - was it a good idea to import things without the
highway=bus_stop tag, to get people to add them themselves?

I think the one other outstanding issue is how we should represent the
CUS stop types, at present in the 'active' tagging mode, they'll
appear as fully-fledged highway=bus_stop nodes, like every other bus
stop type, but with the addition of  naptan:BusStopType=CUS, as (a
rather obscure) indicator to the fact they may not exist.

And then finally, we need to think about how we roll this out, county
at a time is the most obvious step, I think we order the import based
on requests on the transit list, followed by requests on talk-gb, with
a target date to import the rest by.

And on the technical front, I'm going to have to make sure that the
import tools I'm using are 0.6-capable.

I'm copying this over to the west-mids list so we can get their responses.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Changes in a bbox?

[Thomas Wood]

If identifying a past disappearance of data, it'd probably be easier
to use the history tab of the main website than a feed?

2009/6/26 Tomas Straupis tomasstrau...@gmail.com:
 Hello

  I remember seeing recently a link to an rss feed on dev server for
 changesets in defined bbox.
  Is this feature already on prod?

  I need this to identify strange disappearance of data...

  Thank you!

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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding OpenStreetMap map into wordpress.com post

[Thomas Wood]

The current Google Map you have on that page is embedded via an Iframe.

You can get a similar piece of Iframe code via the Export tab of the
openstreetmap.org website.

2009/6/25 Ivan Garcia capisc...@gmail.com:
 Hi,

 we are trying to replace a Google maps into a OSM map in here,

 http://barcampvalencia.com/localizacion/

 That is inside wordpress.com hosting where the inclusion of Iframes, or
 javascript in the posts is limited, and cannot install the OSM plugin for
 wordpress neither.

 Do you know any other way to do this?

 Many thanks in advance.
 Ivan.

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[Talk-transit] NaPTAN and the new PT tagging schema

[Thomas Wood]

Hi all,
It's about time to push on the import to the rest of the UK, however,
we must first consider what we do with the new Public Transport
tagging schema.
It would make a lot of sense to use this now that a detailed proposal
has been put together.

The only real differences it would make for us are:
* additionally tagging all highway=bus_stop nodes with
public_transport=platform, bus=yes
* moving NaPTAN's StopAreas from the unified stoparea proposal
(relation type=site, site=stop_area) to relation
type=public_transport, public_transport=stop_area
* NaPTAN allows for cascading StopAreas, I'm of the view that to
simplify the import we follow the NaPTAN precedent and import them
with the same structure, rather than using a stop_area_group relation.

As far as the import is going, I'm still yet to patch the missing
fields onto the Birmingham data, which is probably going to be my next
task.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] Error in OSM site when Exporting to Embedded HTML

[Thomas Wood]

This is now fixed in http://trac.openstreetmap.org/changeset/16086

2009/6/23 Jonas Krückel o...@jonas-krueckel.de:
 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason schrieb:
 On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 8:59 AM, Ivan Garciacapisc...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi, I realized that when I click in the EXPORT tab of OSM.org and I choose
 the Embedded HTML radiobox, it appears a link that says: Click here to
 select a marker, but when I click later on in the map, no marker is placed,
 I'm using Firefox 3 in my Kubuntu.


 Can someone who can debug JS look at this? Firefox error
 console/Firebug complain about undefined variables but I can't track
 down what's wrong.

 I recognized this bug a few weeks ago as I was translating osm.org. It
 seemed to me that the bug appeared that time, so maybe it has something
 to do with the translation?
 I checked de.yml at this time, but there was no bug, so it must be
 somewhere else.
 Maybe this is a hint.

 Jonas

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Re: [OSM-talk] Thousands of small changesets by Tim Proegler

[Thomas Wood]

Can we ban it, the stuff its uploading is completely useless. (single
nodes with only note tags and no other useful metadata)

2009/6/24 Shaun McDonald sh...@shaunmcdonald.me.uk:
 http://www.mchme.com/#openstreetmap looks like the software they've used.
 1753 changesets in less than 20 minutes.
 Shaun
 On 24 Jun 2009, at 17:58, S Knox wrote:

 Does anyone know why Tim
 Proegler http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/timproegler/edits has made so
 many small edits under the name of KMLManager in such a short space of time
 (1 day as a member)? The recent changes page was at one point full of his
 changesets. Is this legitimate, or a mistake?

 Regards
 Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] A lot of Spam on the user diaries

[Thomas Wood]

The admins usually watch the diary entries and clean them up before
most people see them (I sometimes have them lingering in my RSS feed,
but they've already been deleted by the time I check the website)
However, our main admin who can do this is currently on holiday (doing
occasional general checks on the site afaik), so things may happen
less rapidly than they have in the past.

2009/6/13 Peter Dörrie peter.doer...@googlemail.com:
 Hi,

 lately there has been a lot of spam in the user dieary entries (and
 therefore in the planet as well). And I found no way to flag those users
 or entries for an admin to investigate this. So please

 1. block the following accounts:

 Accessories
 Vitamins
 ericola


 2. Implement a flag button in the user diaries, so that that spam can get
 countered effectively

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Re: [Talk-GB] Authorities, boundaries and admin-levels

[Thomas Wood]

2009/6/13 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com:

 On 13 Jun 2009, at 09:30, Peter Childs wrote:

 2009/6/11 Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk:

 And here is the current OSM guidance:-

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:admin_level#admin_level

 In order to tie in with NUTS and with guidance for other

 countries

 within OSM we might want to do the following for England

 (Scotland

 and Wales would be similar but would skip some levels):-

 UK (admin_level=2)

 England/Wales/Scotland (admin_level=4)

 English regions (North East, East of England etc) (also

 admin_level=4

 as per NUTS)

 Ceremonial counties - where they exist (admin_level= 5)

 County Councils/Unitary Authorities (admin-level=6)

 Districts  (admin-level=8)  districts / London boroughs /

 metropolitan

 boroughs.


 Whats the simplest way of adding a boundary? I notice that Medway does
 not have one, I know ruthley where it should be, but have no idea of
 how to go about adding the relevant relation/way. I'm fine adding
 Roads and smaller stuff but the boundary stuff just throws me.

 It is better to use a relation for the boundary rather than way tags which
 used to be the only way to do it. Add the appropriate existing ways
 (rivers/roads etc) to a new relation. You may need to split roads/rivers
 where the boundary diverges. For some sections of the boundary you will need
 to add new ways (where it goes across fields). I just add a
 'note=administrative boundary' tag to those ways.
 The only source of data we can legally use for the boundary to by knowledge
 is the NPE maps base which shows boundaries as a dotted line if you are
 lucky and if they have not moved in the past 50 years. I also check
 wikipedia as a cross check
 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EnglandMedway.png) and then the official
 council website to see if there is general agreement on the shape and
 extent.
 It isn't perfect - to be perfect our democratic government will need to
 persuade the OS to give its citizens the boundaries by which it is governed.
 Until now lets do the best we can and when people say they are wrong we will
 ask them to provide the information to correct it!
 Btw, OSM and the UK Boundaries project got a mention on the Guardians data
 blog yesterday.
 http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/jun/11/opensourc



 Regards,

 Peter



 Peter.

I think there is value in also tagging the way with at least
boundary=administrative, especially ways that would otherwise only
have the relation. The relation model does not completely surpass the
old tagging scheme.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Turn restrictions

[Thomas Wood]

2009/5/26 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl:
 Cartinus wrote:
 On Tuesday 26 May 2009 07:44:54 Maarten Deen wrote:
 I've searched the wiki and I have used the tag myself, but there seems to
 be no documentation for restriction= ?

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:restriction

 Thanks, I knew it was somewhere, but the wiki search seems to be seriously
 flawed:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php?title=Special%3ASearchns0=1ns1=1ns2=1ns3=1ns4=1ns5=1ns6=1ns7=1ns8=1ns9=1ns10=1ns11=1ns12=1ns13=1ns14=1ns15=1ns200=1ns201=1ns202=1ns203=1ns204=1ns205=1ns206=1ns208=1ns209=1redirs=1search=restrictionfulltext=Advanced+search
 does not bring up any results.

 I see now it does work with the Google search, but then what's the point for
 wikipedia to have its own search.

 Regards,


Actually, it seems all wiki searches are failing.
I've copied the wiki admin in on this.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Data Import Support Working Group

[Thomas Wood]

2009/5/13 SteveC st...@asklater.com:
 All

 The foundation today discussed the perceived need for a working group
 to help people import data.

 We know there are highly talented individuals out there who are able
 to find data to import, have the social skills and time to get data
 holders to release it to OSM, have the legal knowledge to see if it's
 ok to import and have the technical skills to do the actual importing.
 They are doing amazing work.

 However there are those that can do only a portion of this. Thus we
 would like to help the people finding the data meet the people who can
 import it, and them feel they have backing. We are not looking to
 stomp on existing imports. We wish to help with the large number of
 datasets out there without a champion who has all the skills needed to
 get it imported. There is a lot of data out there! We will prioritise
 it and help get it imported.

 So, are you someone who knows about some datasets? Are you able to do
 the importing? Do you have a little time each week to help guide the
 process and talk to people who might have data? Then please get in
 touch to help start this group. We will meet approximately every week
 or two for an hour long phone call.

 Best

 Steve

Being the (somewhat delegated) person who is currently doing the
import of the NaPTAN data, I suppose I have an interest in this group,
but demands on my time are currently very high, so its unlikely I'll
be of any help in the near future.

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Re: [OSM-talk] more OSM coming soon

[Thomas Wood]

2009/5/13 Ivo van den Maagdenberg ivo.vdmaagdenb...@gmail.com:
 Hi Folks,

 This is some sort of quality of service question. Half of all the tiles on
 http://www.openstreetmap.org render as 'more OSM coming soon'. I want to
 know if I am doing something wrong (Ubuntu 8.10 + firefox 3.0 + reasonable
 hardware)

The tiles display this in the case of network troubles where the
server isn't reachable, they're also displayed if the tile hasn't yet
been rendered (and is present on the server's disk) and when it's not
possible to render on the fly. Otherwise, the tile is added to the
render queue and should be available at some point shortly in the
future.

 Showing OSM to a friend that has not seen 'the Map' does not give a good
 impression this way. A solution is to implement some sort of double
 buffering where the old tiles are kept for display until the new one has
 properly rendered? Well, that's maybe impossible, but it would improve the
 responsiveness of the http://www.openstreetmap.org at the moment.

I believe this is already the case.

 I am not 100% sure if this list is the most appropriate place to post and
 apolgise for hogging the wrong list with my concerns.

 Kind regards,
 Ivom



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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Thomas Wood]

Unverified and somewhat copyrightable sources.

Where's ShakespeareFan00 when you need him? :)

2009/5/5 Russ Nelson r...@cloudmade.com:
 Any reason not to go through Wikipedia and import everything with a
 coordinate as a POI, with a url=http://wikipedia.org/NAME link, and
 name=NAME where NAME is the name of the Wikipedia entry?  If I do this
 under a special username, then there is no problem backing out the
 import if somebody has a better idea later.

 --
 Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson
 r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - 
 http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson


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Re: [OSM-talk] Python API

[Thomas Wood]

See also the osmparser.py class, that may also be useful.
http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/applications/editors/django/osmeditor/lib/osmparser.py

2009/4/29 Etienne Chové ch...@crans.org:
 Dears,

 I wrote a python class to communicate with OSM API (read, write,
 update). For interested users, informations are here [1].

 May I put sources on the dev server ?

 --
 Etienne

 [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/PythonOsmApi

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Re: [OSM-talk] Python API

[Thomas Wood]

2009/4/29 Etienne Chové ch...@crans.org:
 Thomas Wood a écrit :

 See also the osmparser.py class, that may also be useful.

 http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/applications/editors/django/osmeditor/lib/osmparser.py

 Interesting... does it work with API 0.6 and changesets ? (see 0.5 inside).

Not yet, I was thinking of updating it, since the original author
doesn't seem to have...

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Re: [OSM-talk] Python API

[Thomas Wood]

2009/4/29 Etienne Chové ch...@crans.org:
 Eddy Petrișor a écrit :
 2009/4/29 Etienne Chové ch...@crans.org:
 Dears,

 I wrote a python class to communicate with OSM API (read, write,
 update). For interested users, informations are here [1].

 COOL! I was thinking of writing such a class myself, but it's great
 you did it :) .

 May I put sources on the dev server ?

 May I suggest keeping it in a git repository so other people than the
 ones with commit access to the openstreetmap svn can contribute?

 I have used repo.or.cz which is a free service offered by Petr Baudis,
 author of many improvements in the git user interface for the
 osm-helpers improved code.

 I am probably going to be one of your early adopters :-)

 I can put it where ever people want it. I think svn.openstreetmap.org is
 the best. Where to ask to get svn account ?

The machine admin - TomH creates accounts for anyone who requires one.
(A few) more details on the wiki -
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/SVN

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Re: [OSM-talk] planet? geofabrik download...

[Thomas Wood]

2009/4/27 Etienne Chové ch...@crans.org:
 Frederik Ramm a écrit :
 Hi,

 Gary68 wrote:
 just wanted to use a planet slice from geofabrik and noticed that in
 bremen.osm.bz2 at least 4 referenced nodes are missing:

 Osmosis now exports incomplete objects by default, rather than clipping
 them. One has to explicitly request clipping which is what I've done for
 tonight's job, so expect old-style clipped files tomorrow.

 I think today france extract still have the same problem :

 % grep \12631399\ france.osm
     nd ref=12631399/

 This node is used in a way but not declared

The node in question is located in Poole Bay, UK, as part of a ferry
route from Poole to Guernsey -
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/2784646
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/12631399

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Re: [Talk-GB] Generating Mapnik Images to epsg:27700 (British National Grid) Projection

[Thomas Wood]

I'm fairly sure that the OSGB36 (36 being a year) transformations are
fairly publicly known.

The more detailed OSTN02 transformations are copyrighted (and very
hard to get a hold of).

There's a bit of info on what OSTN02 actually is here -
http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/gps/osnetfreeservices/about/faqs_osnet.html#4

2009/4/24 Tim Waters (chippy) chippy2...@gmail.com:
 please correct me, I want to be wrong, I heard yesterday that by
 projecting any data into OSGB, the OS has copyright / dominion over
 it, since they own that coordinate system.

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Re: [OSM-talk] 404 error in History tab

[Thomas Wood]

Fixed in http://trac.openstreetmap.org/changeset/14694
Thanks for the report.

2009/4/22 Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com:
 I went to the Export tab on the main OSM site, then History, but that gave URI
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/export/history/
 ?bbox=-0.13434%2C51.52728%2C-0.11829%2C51.53819
 which is 404.

 --
 Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] Ruby Error while adding user as friend?

[Thomas Wood]

This has now been fixed.

2009/4/21 Ciprian Talaba cipriantal...@gmail.com:
 Hi,

 I am getting a Ruby error when I am trying to add some user as my friend. It
 seems to be related to some username (for now I can only notice this error
 if the username contains a space). The error is below:

 The OpenStreetMap server encountered an unexpected condition that prevented
 it from fulfilling the request (HTTP 500)

 Feel free to contact the OpenStreetMap community if your problem persists.
 Make a note of the exact URL / post data of your request.

 This may be a problem in our Ruby On Rails code. 500 ocurrs with exceptions
 thrown outside of an action (like in Dispatcher setups or broken Ruby code)

 Is anyone else seeing this error?

 Thanks,
 Ciprian

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Re: [OSM-talk] suggested website to upload a temporary cycling route event over OSM streetdata

[Thomas Wood]

2009/4/11 Shaun McDonald sh...@shaunmcdonald.me.uk:

 On 11 Apr 2009, at 06:49, Maning Sambale wrote:

 Hi,

 I want to create an interactive webmap for an upcoming cycling event
 in
 the Philippines.  I can prepare a gpx file for the route.  Now I
 want it
 over OSM data.  Are there any site that provides this service (other
 than rolling my own slippy map)?

 When you say rolling your own slippy map, do you mean creating the
 tiles yourself, or not touching javascript?


 The route is temporary (only for this cycling event) therefore I am
 hesitant to add it in the main OSM database.


 You could convert the GPX to KML and use Web Maps Lite.
 http://developers.cloudmade.com/projects/web-maps-lite/examples/kml-and-geo-rss

 OpenLayers has an equivalent API call.
 http://openlayers.org/dev/examples/kml-layer.html

 TrackMyJourney is an option, though that is aimed at you having
 travelled that route, and doesn't need any javascript.

 Shaun



OpenLayers can in fact read the GPX itself.
Take a look at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Openlayers_Track_example
I've just fleshed up this page a bit, and fixed it :)


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Re: [OSM-talk] People's Map

[Thomas Wood]

2009/4/9 Mike Harris mik...@googlemail.com:
 Someone just pointed out this site to me:

 http://peoplesmap.com/Default.aspx

 with the claim that it was similar to OpenStreetMap and more UK-oriented
 than OSM (which for some reason they thought was German-dominated - I can't
 imagine why! (;)).

 At a quick glance it doesn't even appear to be free - despite the name and
 the initial blurb ...

 Does anyone know anything about People's Map? Am I right in assuming that it
 has no connection with OSM? Comparison between the two projects? Pros and
 cons?

 Mike Harris

Pros? They have good (their own commercial) aerial imagery, they (used
to) use most of the OSM software.
Cons? Faking freeness, but are not really that free. Worse editor
support (only their flash thing).
There was a clause about data ownership somewhere on the old site, but
I can't find it anymore.

It's certainly been discussed on these lists before, a search may be
worthwhile to hear our previous thoughts:
http://www.google.com/search?q=site:lists.openstreetmap.org+peoples+maphl=enclient=firefox-arls=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficialhs=KlVfilter=0


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Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN import

[Thomas Wood]

2009/4/3 Brian Prangle bpran...@googlemail.com:
 Hi Thomas

 From our west mids meeting last night  a number of requests and queries came
 up

 1.Can you import Wolverhampton - the guys up there are ready to have a crack

Ok, done.

 2. Coventry will not be far behind but hold off until we've checked with the
 major contributors there
 3. We'd like to see the NaPTAN fields LocalityName and Bearing imported

This is an NPTG field, none of the NPTG stuff has been looked at yet.

 4. We're not sure if stoptypes CUS, TXR STR BCQ and BCS have been imported

CUS are in, but not tagged in data, there's no TXR or STR in the West
Mids dataset, BCQ, BCS are in, but not tagged as such since they're
essentially the same as BCT for our purposes.

 5. We're not sure if your local_ref field is working correctly
 -essentially  it's just repeating the naptan:Indicator field

It's a filtered version of the Indicator field, where a reference can
be pulled from it intelligibly.

 I'll be writing a short set of guidelines and also a summary of what we've
 found for the import wiki page - to be published shortly

 As a group we've decided to rely on our gps surveys of where bus stops are
 and move the NaPTAN data to that location for merger with our data. The
 feeling is that earlier bus stop surveys need to be repeated much more
 precisely - examining some of our earlier data suggest we weren't as
 accurate as we needed to be.

 Christophe seems to be making good progress with the visual verify/merge
 tool.

 Peter - we're very keen to get our hands on aerial imagery - what needs to
 happen to get this under way?

 Regards

 Brian




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Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN bus stop database import - some moreobservations

[Thomas Wood]

I've just done a quick render of what was extracted from the West Mids
data set - http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~edgemaster/naptan/

2009/4/1 Roger Slevin ro...@slevin.plus.com:
 Thomas

 Ok - thanks.  I will get a close approximation to this by using current data
 with the same filtering criterion - and hopefully, if there are further
 questions about any specific aspects of the data, I will be able to respond
 to them.

 Roger

 -Original Message-
 From: Thomas Wood [mailto:grand.edgemas...@gmail.com]
 Sent: 01 April 2009 18:15
 To: ro...@slevin.plus.com
 Cc: Brian Prangle; talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org;
 talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN bus stop database import - some
 moreobservations

 2009/4/1 Roger Slevin ro...@slevin.plus.com:
 I would be able to comment more about the missing data and other aspect
 which you and others draw to the list’s attention if I could have a copy
 of
 the NaPTAN data that has been put through the import process – can you (or
 someone else on the list) either point me to where I can find that
 specific
 data set … or can send me a copy of the specific data that has been
 imported?


 Currently all data as of 25th March 2009 19:47:46 in the West Midlands
 region with the a value of Birmingham (case insensitive) in the Town
 field.

 I am planning to check to see if we missed any stops, and add any
 missed based upon a bbox matching.


 Best wishes

 Roger

 

 From: talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org
 [mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Brian Prangle
 Sent: 01 April 2009 13:41
 To: talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN bus stop database import - some
 moreobservations



 Some more views and observations  on the NaPTAN data import in Birmingham:

 1.   It serves as a great QA on OSM data and shows that in the City
 Centre where we have not been able to get decent GPS traces more accuracy
 is
 needed so the potential of obtaining aerial photography is great.

 2.    It’s a great impetus to resurvey streets where earlier work
 (potentially inaccurate from NPE tracing, older GPS devices, less points
 collected,  inexperience, not realising that roads have a width greater
 than
 the rendered line so placing bus stops too close to the road etc.) can be
 improved.

 3.   It’s also a great impetus to improve practice on surveying bus
 stops and be much more precise and comprehensive – also a stimulus to edit
 all those old bus stops where we placed them as a node on the way rather
 than to the side of ways which is our current practice.

 4.   QA works both ways and our surveys should help to improve NaPTAN
 data.

 5.   As an exercise(excuse the pun!) I cycled from Acocks Green to
 Moseley and back this morning along the No 1 bus route and surveyed 47 bus
 stops each time standing at the pole(leaning against it – you can’t get
 closer than that!)  or underneath the plate at a shelter:  4 bus stops
 coincided within 3-4 m; 17 were “good enough” coinciding 8-10m. That’s
 approx 45%. The rest were out by anything up to 90m or were just missing.

 6.   I think either the pole where there is no shelter or the bus stop
 plate at a shelter should be what we survey – that’s where the
 identification of what we survey is located

 7.   Where a physical stop on one side of the road doubles up for one
 on
 the other side also – I think we’re OK by surveying and tagging the
 physical
 one with Andy’s suggestion of a tag opposite=yes. The NaPTAN untagged node
 on the other side can be left in place to indicate the  logical
 relationship.

 8.   I like the idea of tagging where the bus stop is set back in a
 “lay-by” from the road which might account for some NaPTAN nodes being
 some
 distance from the road

 9.   For our purposes “good enough” is probably sufficient rather than
 precise positional detail – I’m of the view that as long the bus stop has
 more or less the right relationships to its surroundings then that’s OK.

 10.   Surprised that there is no data for either the closed Digbeth Coach
 Station which is being rebuilt or the temporary replacement nearby. I
 thought we were importing off-street bus stops? Perhaps the NaPTAN data
 doesn’t exist?

 11.   Can’t find any nodes for  taxi ranks – not imported or doesn’t exist
 for Birmingham or I’m not looking hard enough?

 12.   For the few nodes where I’ve estimated the fit between OSM and
 NaPTAN
 to be “good enough” I’ve merged the nodes deleting the unverified tag and
 editing source tag to v=naptan_import;survey

 13.   Verifying the data is going to be a long, slow process with a lot of
 resurveying needed.

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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN bus stop database import - some moreobservations

[Thomas Wood]

I've just done a quick render of what was extracted from the West Mids
data set - http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~edgemaster/naptan/

2009/4/1 Roger Slevin ro...@slevin.plus.com:
 Thomas

 Ok - thanks.  I will get a close approximation to this by using current data
 with the same filtering criterion - and hopefully, if there are further
 questions about any specific aspects of the data, I will be able to respond
 to them.

 Roger

 -Original Message-
 From: Thomas Wood [mailto:grand.edgemas...@gmail.com]
 Sent: 01 April 2009 18:15
 To: ro...@slevin.plus.com
 Cc: Brian Prangle; Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org;
 talk-tran...@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN bus stop database import - some
 moreobservations

 2009/4/1 Roger Slevin ro...@slevin.plus.com:
 I would be able to comment more about the missing data and other aspect
 which you and others draw to the list’s attention if I could have a copy
 of
 the NaPTAN data that has been put through the import process – can you (or
 someone else on the list) either point me to where I can find that
 specific
 data set … or can send me a copy of the specific data that has been
 imported?


 Currently all data as of 25th March 2009 19:47:46 in the West Midlands
 region with the a value of Birmingham (case insensitive) in the Town
 field.

 I am planning to check to see if we missed any stops, and add any
 missed based upon a bbox matching.


 Best wishes

 Roger

 

 From: talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org
 [mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Brian Prangle
 Sent: 01 April 2009 13:41
 To: Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org; talk-tran...@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN bus stop database import - some
 moreobservations



 Some more views and observations  on the NaPTAN data import in Birmingham:

 1.   It serves as a great QA on OSM data and shows that in the City
 Centre where we have not been able to get decent GPS traces more accuracy
 is
 needed so the potential of obtaining aerial photography is great.

 2.    It’s a great impetus to resurvey streets where earlier work
 (potentially inaccurate from NPE tracing, older GPS devices, less points
 collected,  inexperience, not realising that roads have a width greater
 than
 the rendered line so placing bus stops too close to the road etc.) can be
 improved.

 3.   It’s also a great impetus to improve practice on surveying bus
 stops and be much more precise and comprehensive – also a stimulus to edit
 all those old bus stops where we placed them as a node on the way rather
 than to the side of ways which is our current practice.

 4.   QA works both ways and our surveys should help to improve NaPTAN
 data.

 5.   As an exercise(excuse the pun!) I cycled from Acocks Green to
 Moseley and back this morning along the No 1 bus route and surveyed 47 bus
 stops each time standing at the pole(leaning against it – you can’t get
 closer than that!)  or underneath the plate at a shelter:  4 bus stops
 coincided within 3-4 m; 17 were “good enough” coinciding 8-10m. That’s
 approx 45%. The rest were out by anything up to 90m or were just missing.

 6.   I think either the pole where there is no shelter or the bus stop
 plate at a shelter should be what we survey – that’s where the
 identification of what we survey is located

 7.   Where a physical stop on one side of the road doubles up for one
 on
 the other side also – I think we’re OK by surveying and tagging the
 physical
 one with Andy’s suggestion of a tag opposite=yes. The NaPTAN untagged node
 on the other side can be left in place to indicate the  logical
 relationship.

 8.   I like the idea of tagging where the bus stop is set back in a
 “lay-by” from the road which might account for some NaPTAN nodes being
 some
 distance from the road

 9.   For our purposes “good enough” is probably sufficient rather than
 precise positional detail – I’m of the view that as long the bus stop has
 more or less the right relationships to its surroundings then that’s OK.

 10.   Surprised that there is no data for either the closed Digbeth Coach
 Station which is being rebuilt or the temporary replacement nearby. I
 thought we were importing off-street bus stops? Perhaps the NaPTAN data
 doesn’t exist?

 11.   Can’t find any nodes for  taxi ranks – not imported or doesn’t exist
 for Birmingham or I’m not looking hard enough?

 12.   For the few nodes where I’ve estimated the fit between OSM and
 NaPTAN
 to be “good enough” I’ve merged the nodes deleting the unverified tag and
 editing source tag to v=naptan_import;survey

 13.   Verifying the data is going to be a long, slow process with a lot of
 resurveying needed.

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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-transit] Naptan alignment

[Thomas Wood]

General reply to this thread rather than anyone in particular.

Regarding bearing, that's one we forgot to import.
Filtering by Element was bad, should have filtered by a bbox.
It'd have been useful to pull in the CUS BusStopType as some tag,
rather than completely ignoring it.

And we also now need tools to be able to merge missing NaPTAN data
into the OSM nodes, sounds like more fun :)

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Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN import

[Thomas Wood]

2009/3/19 Thomas Wood grand.edgemas...@gmail.com:
  - Run a conversion and filter on the West Midlands data set for just
 items in Birmingham.

I've now written the filtering code for the converter script, I think
all that's left to be done is to test the file upload against a test
OSM api, to check that the bulk_upload script is suitable for the
purpose.

Then we should continue with the first few steps as outlined previously.
I'm looking to target it to just before or after the weekend.

(By the way, there seem to be 4338 stops in Birmingham in the dataset
I'm playing with, does this sound reasonable?)

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Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN import

[Thomas Wood]

2009/3/19 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com:

 On 19 Mar 2009, at 17:18, Thomas Wood wrote:

 Yes, this is the first message since the confirmation we can use the data.

 I did a little more tweaking to the StopArea code at the weekend (not
 that it matters for the WestMids data).

 I propose we now do the following:
 - Download the whole NaPTAN dataset, so to simplify the update
 process in the future (it'll be easier to merge a complete data set
 with a single noted timestamp)
 - Run a conversion and filter on the West Midlands data set for just
 items in Birmingham.
 - Show the list 5 or so example stops to show how they've been
 converted, so we can fix any issues before an import. (And possibly
 produce a slimmed down slippymap showing the density of data we're
 importing). If a consensus is reached, we'll run an import under the
 NaPTAN account. (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/NaPTAN, which I
 currently have control of).
 - Allow Birmingham mappers to trawl the data and work on a set of
 guidelines of how to bring the data more in-line with OSM, where
 required.
 - Open the import to other talk-gb regions.

 I also propose that the official datasets are kept (privately),
 converted, and uploaded on/from the OSM dev machine rather than one of
 our personal ones.

 All sounds good to me.

 When you create the NaPTAN Import user do give that user a description
 saying what it is being used for and also give a link to the 'controllers'
 of that user, ie yourself and I would suggest we have at least one other
 person who knows the password of the NaPTAN Import user.

The account has been in existence for the past few weeks, as yet
unused. Who wants to be the second password holder?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tim Berners-Lee Linked Data talk

[Thomas Wood]

2009/3/13 Mike Collinson m...@ayeltd.biz:
 I'm not sure if  this has on-line video has been mentioned yet on the list:

 Tim Berners-Lee: The next Web of open, linked data
 http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/tim_berners_lee_on_the_next_web.html

 A relaxing antithesis to the current grand licensing debate but still very 
 relevant as this is what it is ultimately all about.

 It gets interesting around four minutes in and he gives us a nice plug at 
 14:40.  Just please don't tell Richard Fairhurst, it might go to his head :-)

He already knows, and I think it did.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Parish boundaries

[Thomas Wood]

2009/3/11 Chris Hill chillly...@yahoo.co.uk:
 The Church Commissioners have up-to-date information about the parish
 boundaries in England  Wales and they have a website [1] showing parish
 boundaries.  I have seen some parish boundaries have started to appear
 based on NPE maps.  In many cases the boundaries have changed in the 50+
 years since the NPE maps were printed - I can see this on modern OS maps
 but I can't, of course, use these modern data.

Also note that in some places the ecclesiastical parish boundaries are
disjoint from the legal parish boundaries used as bottom tier of local
government. This is probably most common in Unitary Authority regions,
particularly London.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Guardian open platform

[Thomas Wood]

It's been covered on talk-gb:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2009-March/003580.html

2009/3/10 Oliver Lewis ojfle...@gmail.com:
 The Guardian newspaper announced its open platform today
 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/mar/10/guardian-open-platform) and say
 there is a partnership with Openstreetmap to geotag articles.  I couldn't
 find a reference to this on this list, the blog or the wiki.  Can someone
 give us the openstreetmap side of the story or point me to it?

 Thanks

 Oliver

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Re: [OSM-talk] odd rendering + county boundaries

[Thomas Wood]

I believe that there's some boundary rendering bugs that are yet to be
fixed in mapnik, I've not seen this one before.

As a side issue, does the county boundary really go up the river like
that or just cut across the mouth? I think we need to review this. I
recall talking to steve8 who did the boundary relation for the
southwest counties that he'd just added the coastline to the relation,
and not considered river mouths. I'll look into the data myself if I
get the time.

2009/3/2 Kevin Peat ke...@kevinpeat.com:
 I made some changes a couple of weeks ago to the banks of the River Dart
 through Totnes

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=50.42863lon=-3.67974zoom=15layers=B000FFF

 Obviously those changes have been picked up as the county boundary is
 rendering along the updated river bank but the actual river isn't.

 Is this just a time lag thing or have I done something wrong?

 On the subject of UK county boundaries it's nice to see them rendering
 (in Mapnik) but it seems a bit odd for the boundaries to be rendered
 around coastlines and up river estuaries. Is it possible to only render
 the inland parts ie. where the ways are not tagged as natural=coastline?

 thanks,
 Kevin

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=secondary_link

[Thomas Wood]

I've just added it to the wiki, and since it's transcluded on Map
Features, the wiki promptly went down on saving.

Hope it comes back up soon...

2009/3/2 Andrew Chadwick (email lists) andrewc-email-li...@piffle.org:
 Tom Hughes wrote:

 Indeed, just because a tag is not mentioned on the wiki does not mean
 people should go round removing it!

 Though the tag should probably be documented too, for the avoidance of
 future errors amongst those who attach undue meaning to lack of
 documentation, and too little importance to the spirit of [[Any tags you
 like]] and the nature of other people's data :(

 --
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Re: [OSM-talk] odd rendering + county boundaries

[Thomas Wood]

The reason it is being rendered is because the coastline is included
in the boundary relation, not (afaik) any tagging on the coastline
and/or overlapping boundary ways.

2009/3/2 Aun Johnsen (via Webmail) skipp...@gimnechiske.org:
 Maybe the coastal part of the boundary should follow the baseline as per
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Maritime_borders

 The base line is the maritime border closest to the coast, and will
 probably not be rendered on most maps.

 --[]
 On Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:22:34 +, Thomas Wood grand.edgemas...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 I believe that there's some boundary rendering bugs that are yet to be
 fixed in mapnik, I've not seen this one before.

 As a side issue, does the county boundary really go up the river like
 that or just cut across the mouth? I think we need to review this. I
 recall talking to steve8 who did the boundary relation for the
 southwest counties that he'd just added the coastline to the relation,
 and not considered river mouths. I'll look into the data myself if I
 get the time.

 2009/3/2 Kevin Peat ke...@kevinpeat.com:
 I made some changes a couple of weeks ago to the banks of the River Dart
 through Totnes


 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=50.42863lon=-3.67974zoom=15layers=B000FFF

 Obviously those changes have been picked up as the county boundary is
 rendering along the updated river bank but the actual river isn't.

 Is this just a time lag thing or have I done something wrong?

 On the subject of UK county boundaries it's nice to see them rendering
 (in Mapnik) but it seems a bit odd for the boundaries to be rendered
 around coastlines and up river estuaries. Is it possible to only render
 the inland parts ie. where the ways are not tagged as natural=coastline?

 thanks,
 Kevin

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 Aun Johnsen
 via Webmail

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Re: [OSM-talk] how to point the openlayers instance to mapnik

[Thomas Wood]

There's an easier method than this, see:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenLayers_Simple_Example#Extensions

On 01/03/2009, Lambertus o...@na1400.info wrote:
 Lookup the map creating section in the JS code of your website where
 OpenLayers is used. It should look something like this:

 map = new OpenLayers.Map(

 Then add a new TMS layer pointing to your Mapnik instance. The example
 below shows two of the Mapnik instances used on the Dutch tileserver:

 var layerFastNL = new OpenLayers.Layer.TMS(
   SpeedLayer,
   http://93.186.180.157/;,
  {type:'png', getURL: get_osm_url,
  border:1,
  transitionEffect: 'resize'} );

 var layerNL = new OpenLayers.Layer.TMS(
  NL (current),
  [
 http://a.tile.openstreetmap.nl/tilecache.py/1.0.0/mapnik/;,
 http://b.tile.openstreetmap.nl/tilecache.py/1.0.0/mapnik/;,
 http://c.tile.openstreetmap.nl/tilecache.py/1.0.0/mapnik/;
  ],
  {type:'png', getURL: get_osm_url,
  border:1,
  maxExtent: new
 OpenLayers.Bounds(311549.5,6555477.5,822458.8125,7118943.5)}
 );

 That's about it.


 Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
 Hi,

 I have been working on doing my own slippy map with mapnik and mod_tile.
 The
 documentation mentions the following steps:

 *  Download the planet file from planet.openstreetmap.org
 * Import into a PostGIS database using osm2pgsql
 * Set up mapnik and test using osm.xml and the generate_image.py
 * Compile and install mod_tile
 * Run the rendering daemon and ensure it can write to the tile storage

 directory
 * Configure your Apache server to load and run the module
 * Change the OpenLayers instance to point to your server

 After a long laborious battle I have reached the last stage. I need to
 point
 the openlayers instance to my server, but cannot find documentation how to
 do
 it. Can anyone point me to this?


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Re: [OSM-talk] US Geocachers are mapping fire hydrants.

[Thomas Wood]

Sounds like waymarking.com to me, rather than geocaching.

On 27/02/2009, Gregory nomoregra...@googlemail.com wrote:
 It's probably better for this to be forwarded to the US mailing list (I'm
 not subscribed myself) or a relevant CloudMade officer.

 Young geocachers in Ontario have been mapping fire hydrants (and last year
 'farmland properties' for the County Planning Office.
 http://www.mpnnow.com/news/x1434780231/Mapmaking-in-the-digital-age

 Would make sense for someone to get in touch with them so they can map
 anything/evverything for OSM and then give the OSM data to the planning
 office.



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Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] NAPTAN database

[Thomas Wood]

2009/2/21 Thomas Wood grand.edgemas...@gmail.com:
 2009/2/21 Simon Ward si...@bleah.co.uk:
 On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 10:03:43AM -, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) 
 wrote:
 Here is the photo of that stop Brian mentioned above:

 http://ajr.hopto.org/osm/SD530488.JPG

 Note that my OSM data entry is missing the stuff at the top of the sign
 which Brian has been putting under the name tag I believe. Only stops at
 major intersections/termini I think have these extra bits of data at the top
 of the sign.

 And another example showing that they normally use the word towards on
 most of the west midlands stop signs.

 http://ajr.hopto.org/osm/SD530486.JPG

 For comparison:

 http://bleah.co.uk/~simon/photos/osm/mount_road-belle_vue-stop.jpg

 This is:

 http://openstreetmap.org/browse/node/343284691

 I didn't tag the B, and I have been tagging bus service numbers with
 services not route_ref (possibly a mistake considering the existence
 of road services).  The SMS text code is normally on the other side of the
 stop sign.

 Simon

 The Gtr Manchester data looks quite good, some points:
 The stop ref is formed from digits 5-10 of the AtcoCode.
 The SMS text code is the NaptanCode
 The B is shown in both the Name and Indicator fields in the 'standard
 way' that I currently parse for.

 --
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I've now transcribed all these findings onto the wiki at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Local_schemes

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