Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH
In a message dated 4/29/2004 8:48:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: PHILLIP WAS A JEW. THE EUNUCH WAS A JEW. Terry -- everyone was a JEW for the first several years of the church. Commands pertaining to salvation -- if in deed, there are such, cannot be ignored because they were given to the Jew first. It seems to me that if one believes in "steps for salvation," then the admonition to be baptized for the remission of sins is a difficult issue to ignore (Acts 2:38). If, however, one believes that Christ accomplished salvation for all, that the cross functions for those who rise to some level of goodness (the Gentile in Romans 2), then baptism "for the remission of sins" can be seen in a much different light. The thing that works against the four or five "steps in the plan of salvation" is that they are never mentioned in the same sentence -- they are never preached in the same sermon. On one occasion, someone is told to repent, on another, confession is the command, on another baptism is required, on another forsaking all that you have is the more important consideration. All this tells me that the first step for one is a different step for another. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Female Teachers
In a message dated 4/29/2004 10:04:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oh, really??? Hmm -- my two little children (ages 2 and 3) did not seem to pick up on that. Dang -- and I was going to encourage you not to reproduce. John
Re: [TruthTalk] To flame or not to flame
In a message dated 4/29/2004 10:14:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Chapter two it is. And my point remains unanswered - women can give orders just as long as they offer no new information (?) And what about foot washing and the cultural impact of water baptism? Did your mother teach you or is this some kind of biblical injunction put into force after you left home? Daniel responds: Ummm ... hypocrite -- how does Miriam asking YahShua to go fetch some wine for a marriage feast translate into TEACHING MEN DOCTRINE? ARE YOU REALLY THIS STUPID?? You once again missed the point, genius. She did not simply ask Jesus -- she told him to do something that He did not want to do. And I missed your answer to the question of cultural commands such as baptism and foot washing. You are 0 for 2 -- try to catch up. Danny Boy says: Literally iniquity means ANTI NOMOS -- OR ANTI LAW -- or against the Law of Moses. Or, to put it simply -- against the Torah. Jesus came to redeem us from being against the Torah. The Bible says: We are saved by grace apart by obedience to the Law of Moses (Romans 4) Jere 31 prophecies the end of Law as a covenant relationship. In His Grace John
Re: [TruthTalk] David Miller on TFTorrance'sThe Mediation of Christ
You've come to see the impact that this man has on some of us.Please submit your reflections on this book. Issues involving text and interpretation could then be addressed as well as the nature, distinctives and content of Trinitarian thought. I for one would not like to see Bill Taylor leave TT. This conversation would certainly "cause" him to stay around. If you've not finished it then, we'll all begin at the beginning and work our way through ittogether. Blessings, Lance
RE: [TruthTalk] Female Teachers
Daniel states: I know this is hard for you to accept -- but you are not the center of the universe. YHVH is. And the Torah is even above YHVH. Jonathan states: Ok let me get this straight. YHVH is the center of the universe but the Torah is even more central? The law is more important than YHVH Himself? Please give me an example where the Torah states that it is above God Himself. Are you somehow confusing what is given with the giver? How are you anything more than a modern day Pharisee? You know, the ones Jesus got very upset with over their acceptance and promotion of religion instead of the God behind it, the Spirit of the law? Do you offer animal sacrifices as well? Doves, sheep, cattle? Or is that part of the Torah something you can safely ignore? In all seriousness which portions of the Torah do you keep? The laws over touching a dead body? The cleansing laws for your wife after menstruation? Are you not allowed to touch even her arm in order to avoid becoming unclean during this time? (Lev 15:19). Did she offer purification offerings after giving birth to your two children (Lev 12:1-8)? Or do you follow just the 10 commandments? What do you do about Romans 6:14 (Sin is no longer your master, for you are no longer subject to the law, which enslaves you to sin. Instead, you are free by God's grace.)? I get annoyed when I have to bold the portion regarding law instead of that which emphasizes Gods grace. Jonathan
Re: [TruthTalk] David Miller on TFTorrance'sThe Mediation of Christ
Lance Muir wrote: You've come to see the impact that this man has on some of us.Please submit your reflections on this book. Issues involving text and interpretation could then be addressed as well as the nature, distinctives and content of Trinitarian thought. I for one would not like to see Bill Taylor leave TT. This conversation would certainly "cause" him to stay around. If you've not finished it then, we'll all begin at the beginning and work our way through ittogether. Blessings, Lance === Sorry Lance, but I have no desire to read or study this book. Having your ideas printed out does not, in my opinion, make one an authority any more than being the Pope makes you perfect. I doubt that Bill would stay around just to join a book club anyway. He seems to get his feathers ruffled too easily when people question the things he says, and I guarantee you people on here are going to question everything said by everyone. This has been for me a great place to learn, but for one who wants to be accepted as a teacher, my advice is too put on your shin guards and pucker up, 'cause you are going to get kicked on a regular basis. You can't hang with this bunch without taking your licks. How in the world can you be kind to people like Chris and Daniel? If they were just loud and ignorant, that would be one thing, but these people are influencing others, even little children. Same with the Mormons. Nice guys. Probably would make great neighbors, but they are confused enough about God to spend eternity in Hell. Maybe, just maybe, Bill could say something some day that would cause any of these guys to see the light if he hung around and swallowed his pride. If he doesn't teach them a thing, I am sure that in the process. all of us would be strengthened in what we believe. Lord knows that I am woefully ignorant in many areas and could learn much from anyone on this list on how to or how not to (fill in the blank), but just because someone says something, I am not going to accept it without discussion. That is why I don't pay a lot of attention to preachers or authors, or those who aren't eager to say why they think what they think. So if Bill would be willing to stay around for our benefit, that would be great, but if we all have to change to accomodate his mild paranoia, then it is probably better that he go. Blessings, Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] David Miller on TFTorrance'sThe Mediation of Christ
I guess I missed itis Bill threatening to leave us now? Why? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 6:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] David Miller on TFTorrance'sThe Mediation of Christ Lance Muir wrote: You've come to see the impact that this man has on some of us.Please submit your reflections on this book. Issues involving text and interpretation could then be addressed as well as the nature, distinctives and content of Trinitarian thought. I for one would not like to see Bill Taylor leave TT. This conversation would certainly cause him to stay around. If you've not finished it then, we'll all begin at the beginning and work our way through ittogether. Blessings, Lance === Sorry Lance, but I have no desire to read or study this book. Having your ideas printed out does not, in my opinion, make one an authority any more than being the Pope makes you perfect. I doubt that Bill would stay around just to join a book club anyway. He seems to get his feathers ruffled too easily when people question the things he says, and I guarantee you people on here are going to question everything said by everyone. This has been for me a great place to learn, but for one who wants to be accepted as a teacher, my advice is too put on your shin guards and pucker up, 'cause you are going to get kicked on a regular basis. You can't hang with this bunch without taking your licks. How in the world can you be kind to people like Chris and Daniel? If they were just loud and ignorant, that would be one thing, but these people are influencing others, even little children. Same with the Mormons. Nice guys. Probably would make great neighbors, but they are confused enough about God to spend eternity in Hell. Maybe, just maybe, Bill could say something some day that would cause any of these guys to see the light if he hung around and swallowed his pride. If he doesn't teach them a thing, I am sure that in the process. all of us would be strengthened in what we believe. Lord knows that I am woefully ignorant in many areas and could learn much from anyone on this list on how to or how not to (fill in the blank), but just because someone says something, I am not going to accept it without discussion. That is why I don't pay a lot of attention to preachers or authors, or those who aren't eager to say why they think what they think. So if Bill would be willing to stay around for our benefit, that would be great, but if we all have to change to accomodate his mild paranoia, then it is probably better that he go. Blessings, Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] David Miller on TFTorrance'sThe Mediation of Christ
Apparently I have missed something in the last few hours -- don't know how -- but I am concerned. Bill Taylor leaving the group??? Someone include the post I missed (from him ?). It is 6:20 am here -- I will hold off leaving this morning --- hopefully someone will fill me in. John In a message dated 4/30/2004 2:39:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You've come to see the impact that this man has on some of us. Please submit your reflections on this book. Issues involving text and interpretation could then be addressed as well as the nature, distinctives and content of Trinitarian thought. I for one would not like to see Bill Taylor leave TT. This conversation would certainly "cause" him to stay around. If you've not finished it then, we'll all begin at the beginning and work our way through it together. Blessings, Lance
[TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH
Hi Terry: The mystery of Elsman deepens. I don't know what he's got against Baptism; maybe (being a lawyer) he identifies with the Sanhedrinwho also rejected John's baptism (see Luke 7:30) because they didn't see the need to repent. However, John 4:1 tells us that Jesus (our example) made and baptized more disciples than John (though his disciples did the baptizing) and the apostle Paulhimself was baptized at the house of Ananias (Acts 9:18) after receiving his eyesight and he went on to personally baptize Crispus and Gaius along with the household of Stephanus but he does state in 1 Cor 1:13 that Christ sent him to preach the gospel rather than baptize (still this does not saythat he taught against it or that those accompanying him did not do the baptizing). Paul and Silas were involved in the baptism of the jailer in Acts 16:33. Baptism is not a religious ritual; everything in God's economy involves His Word mixed with faith in the heart and Baptism under the New Covenant is a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and our identification with it. The OT type was Israel's deliverance out of Egypt when they came through the red sea and headed toward the land of Promise. We know that their unbelief caused them some problems and grief - which things are written as a warning to us (1 Cor 10:5) Baptism in water for repentance and forgiveness of sinis not in the same category as the "different washings" of Hebrews 9:10. In fact Baptisms are listed in Hebrews 6:2 as a foundational doctrine which Paul both taught and practiced in his ministry to the gentiles ie he taught in Eph 4:4,5 "One body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." (Romans 6:3 and Col 2:12 give the imagery of what Baptism represents) Jesus gave the command (Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16) and the disciples obeyed and showed by example: Acts 2:38 Peter preached "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ" Acts 8:12 "Philip was baptizing in Samaria" Acts 8:13 "Peter baptized Simon the Sorcerer in Samaria" Acts 8:18 "Many Corinthians believed and were baptized" Acts 9:18 "Paul was baptized after receiving his sight at the house of Ananias" Acts 10:38 "Peter baptized Cornelius and his household in Joppa after hearing them speak in tongues" Acts 16:14 "Lydia from Thyratira (living in Philippi) and her household were baptized" Acts 16:33 "The jailer at Philippi and his household were baptized" In 1 Peter 3:20 we are taught about the significance of water Baptism when Peter uses the analogy of Noah and 8 souls being saved by water from judgment; he goes on to say that baptism doesn't save us from the filth of the (physical) flesh but is the answer (response) of a good conscience toward God (because of the cleansing power of His blood) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Note: I find it interesting in light of the brouhaha over the incarnation that there are no types for this (that I am aware of) in the OT and it is not mentioned in the teaching of the apostles. Shalom, judyt BOOGER,LISTEN UP!!THE EUNUCH WAS A JEW WHO WAS THE TREASURER FOR QUEEN CANDACE. HE HAD BEEN TO A JEWISH FEAST IN THE HOLY CITY, AND WAS RETURNING TO ETHIOPIA, BUT HE WAS UNSAVED. JESUS SENT PHILLIP TO MEET HIM AS HE WAS READING FROM IS. 52:15: "SO SHALL HE SPRINKLE MANY NATIONS."PHILLIP WAS A JEW. THE EUNUCH WAS A JEW. THUS, IT WAS A DIVERSE WASHING, CONSISTENT WITH THE TORAH. (ONE DOES WONDER WHERE THEY FOUND WATER IN THE DESERT, ESPECIALLY IF THE JEWS IMMERSED, AS THE LANGUAGE TENDS TO IMPLY.)---ELSMAN [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ELSMAN THE LAWYER, GIVING THE SHORT COURSE. HEY, IF YOU HAVE BEEN WATER BAPTIZED, DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT. SOME OF YOU NEED A BATH ANYWAY. Thought provoking, Elsman. When you have time, I would like to hear the long course. I know that baptism was practiced by the Jews for many years prior to the ministry of John, the Baptist., but had never thought of it to be a Jews only thing. Makes me wonfer why the Ethiopean eunouch was baptized by Philip. I also wonder why and if it was actually a command for Christians. Any thoughts you have to add would be appreciated. As far as that goes, I would like te thoughts of everyone on this subject, including verses if you do not mind.
RE: [TruthTalk] Female Teachers
Galatians 5: 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: . enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, . those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Female Teachers
In a message dated 4/30/2004 7:05:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Galatians 5: 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: . enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, . those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Ok ok I am trying to keep this in mind. John
RE: [TruthTalk] Female Teachers
J From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 8:14 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Female Teachers In a message dated 4/30/2004 7:05:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Galatians 5: 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: . enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, . those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Ok ok I am trying to keep this in mind. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism: JUDI DROWNS IN THE WATER ON HER BRAIN
In a message dated 4/30/2004 9:32:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Acts 8:12 "Philip was baptizing in Samaria" Acts 8:13 "Peter baptized Simon the Sorcerer in Samaria" Acts 8:18 "Many Corinthians believed and were baptized" Acts 9:18 "Paul was baptized after receiving his sight at the house of Ananias" Acts 10:38 "Peter baptized Cornelius and his household in Joppa after hearing them speak in tongues" Acts 16:14 "Lydia from Thyratira (living in Philippi) and her household were baptized" Acts 16:33 "The jailer at Philippi and his household were baptized" In 1 Peter 3:20 we are taught about the significance of water Baptism when Peter uses the analogy of Noah and 8 souls being saved by water from judgment; he goes on to say that baptism doesn't save us from the filth of the (physical) flesh but is the answer (response) of a good conscience toward God (because of the cleansing power of His blood) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. judi, YOU FAILED TO TAKE EACH OF MY POINTS AND REFUTE THEM, ANSWERING LIKE SOME HELTER-SKELTER WOMAN WITH EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS. I SEE YOU WISH TO FOLLOW JESUS IN WATER BAPTISM-OK, AS LONG AS YOU STAY UNDER THE WATER 3 DAYS!! I NEVER SAID JEWS DID NOT DO "WASHINGS"---THEY DID. THEY ALSO CUT THE END OFF THEIR PENISWELL, YOU DON'T HAVE TO FOLLOW ALL 613!! INDEED, GALATIANS SAYS YOU ARE FREE!! WAS NOAH SAVED BY WATER? NO, HE WAS SAVED BY A BOAT!! THOSE IN THE WATER DIED. GET IN THE BOAT OF THE SPIRIT'S BAPTISM, OR DROWN!! ---ELSMANSTEIN P.S. WHAT MAN IS A MOUTHY WOMAN LIKE YOU SUBJECT TO? PASTOR? HUSBAND? WHY DO IS SUSPECT THAT THE ANSWER IS "NOBODY"?
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism: JUDI DROWNS IN THE WATER ON HER BRAIN
In a message dated 4/30/2004 9:51:24 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: WHAT MAN IS A MOUTHY WOMAN LIKE YOU SUBJECT TO? PASTOR? HUSBAND? WHY DO IS SUSPECT THAT THE ANSWER IS "NOBODY"? Personlly I have enjoyed reading the opinions and posts lately WITHOUT the crude comments. Can we agree or disagree without being repulsive? Why is it necessary to jump on here and poke jabs at David, Judy, Izzy or anyone else? If the list is not going to be edifying it is not worth my time to be on it. So clean up your act and post something worthwhile for all of us. Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism: JUDI DROWNS IN THE WATER ON HER BRAIN
In a message dated 4/30/2004 11:30:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 4/30/2004 9:51:24 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: WHAT MAN IS A MOUTHY WOMAN LIKE YOU SUBJECT TO? PASTOR? HUSBAND? WHY DO IS SUSPECT THAT THE ANSWER IS "NOBODY"? Personlly I have enjoyed reading the opinions and posts lately WITHOUT the crude comments. Can we agree or disagree without being repulsive? Why is it necessary to jump on here and poke jabs at David, Judy, Izzy or anyone else? If the list is not going to be edifying it is not worth my time to be on it. So clean up your act and post something worthwhile for all of us. Laura LAURA, ARE YOU ANOTHER WOMAN WHO OPPOSES THE DOCTRINE THAT EVERY WOMAN MUST BE SUBJECT TO A MALE? I AM MOST SERIOUS ABOUT THIS POINT. IT IS BIBLICAL. ---ELSMAN
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism: JUDI DROWNS IN THE WATER ON HER BRAIN
In a message dated 4/30/2004 10:44:53 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: LAURA, ARE YOU ANOTHER WOMAN WHO OPPOSES THE DOCTRINE THAT EVERY WOMAN MUST BE SUBJECT TO A MALE? I AM MOST SERIOUS ABOUT THIS POINT. IT IS BIBLICAL. ---ELSMAN Absolutely not! I totally agree with the doctrine that women should be in submission and comply with the chains of authority. I see nothing in what Judy or Izzy post or Sherry that indicates they are not under authority. BUT I am not and never will be under your authority! Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] David Miller on TFTorrance'sThe Mediation of Christ
Terry: 'twas not a post for you, sorry. I should have sent it privately to David. I also unwittingly violated a private post from Bill. Glad to know that you count yourself among the species that eat their own. The level of acrimony on TT does not rise above that which I encounter in our store however. My shin guards affixed I await more of TC. Blessings, lance - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 30, 2004 08:54 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] David Miller on TFTorrance's"The Mediation of Christ" Lance Muir wrote: You've come to see the impact that this man has on some of us.Please submit your reflections on this book. Issues involving text and interpretation could then be addressed as well as the nature, distinctives and content of Trinitarian thought. I for one would not like to see Bill Taylor leave TT. This conversation would certainly "cause" him to stay around. If you've not finished it then, we'll all begin at the beginning and work our way through ittogether. Blessings, Lance===Sorry Lance, but I have no desire to read or study this book. Having your ideas printed out does not, in my opinion, make one an authority any more than being the Pope makes you perfect.I doubt that Bill would stay around just to join a book club anyway. He seems to get his feathers ruffled too easily when people question the things he says, and I guarantee you people on here are going to question everything said by everyone. This has been for me a great place to learn, but for one who wants to be accepted as a teacher, my advice is too put on your shin guards and pucker up, 'cause you are going to get kicked on a regular basis. You can't hang with this bunch without taking your licks. How in the world can you be kind to people like Chris and Daniel? If they were just loud and ignorant, that would be one thing, but these people are influencing others, even little children. Same with the Mormons. Nice guys. Probably would make great neighbors, but they are confused enough about God to spend eternity in Hell. Maybe, just maybe, Bill could say something some day that would cause any of these guys to see the light if he hung around and swallowed his pride.If he doesn't teach them a thing, I am sure that in the process. all of us would be strengthened in what we believe. Lord knows that I am woefully ignorant in many areas and could learn much from anyone on this list on how to or how not to (fill in the blank), but just because someone says something, I am not going to accept it without discussion. That is why I don't pay a lot of attention to preachers or authors, or those who aren't eager to say why they think what they think. So if Bill would be willing to stay around for our benefit, that would be great, but if we all have to change to accomodate his mild paranoia, then it is probably better that he go.Blessings,Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] David Miller on TFTorrance'sThe Mediation of Christ
Dorry Lance. I did not know this was personal. Just wanted to point out that when iron sharpens iron, you have to expect sparks. Terry Lance Muir wrote: Terry: 'twas not a post for you, sorry. I should have sent it privately to David. I also unwittingly violated a private post from Bill. Glad to know that you count yourself among the species that eat their own. The level of acrimony on TT does not rise above that which I encounter in our store however. My shin guards affixed I await more of TC. Blessings, lance - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 30, 2004 08:54 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] David Miller on TFTorrance's"The Mediation of Christ" Lance Muir wrote: You've come to see the impact that this man has on some of us.Please submit your reflections on this book. Issues involving text and interpretation could then be addressed as well as the nature, distinctives and content of Trinitarian thought. I for one would not like to see Bill Taylor leave TT. This conversation would certainly "cause" him to stay around. If you've not finished it then, we'll all begin at the beginning and work our way through ittogether. Blessings, Lance === Sorry Lance, but I have no desire to read or study this book. Having your ideas printed out does not, in my opinion, make one an authority any more than being the Pope makes you perfect. I doubt that Bill would stay around just to join a book club anyway. He seems to get his feathers ruffled too easily when people question the things he says, and I guarantee you people on here are going to question everything said by everyone. This has been for me a great place to learn, but for one who wants to be accepted as a teacher, my advice is too put on your shin guards and pucker up, 'cause you are going to get kicked on a regular basis. You can't hang with this bunch without taking your licks. How in the world can you be kind to people like Chris and Daniel? If they were just loud and ignorant, that would be one thing, but these people are influencing others, even little children. Same with the Mormons. Nice guys. Probably would make great neighbors, but they are confused enough about God to spend eternity in Hell. Maybe, just maybe, Bill could say something some day that would cause any of these guys to see the light if he hung around and swallowed his pride. If he doesn't teach them a thing, I am sure that in the process. all of us would be strengthened in what we believe. Lord knows that I am woefully ignorant in many areas and could learn much from anyone on this list on how to or how not to (fill in the blank), but just because someone says something, I am not going to accept it without discussion. That is why I don't pay a lot of attention to preachers or authors, or those who aren't eager to say why they think what they think. So if Bill would be willing to stay around for our benefit, that would be great, but if we all have to change to accomodate his mild paranoia, then it is probably better that he go. Blessings, Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] David Miller on TFTorrance'sThe Mediation of Christ
Terry: Let 'em fly. No objection from my end. Lance - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 30, 2004 13:43 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] David Miller on TFTorrance's"The Mediation of Christ" Dorry Lance. I did not know this was personal. Just wanted to point out that when iron sharpens iron, you have to expect sparks.TerryLance Muir wrote: Terry: 'twas not a post for you, sorry. I should have sent it privately to David. I also unwittingly violated a private post from Bill. Glad to know that you count yourself among the species that eat their own. The level of acrimony on TT does not rise above that which I encounter in our store however. My shin guards affixed I await more of TC. Blessings, lance - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 30, 2004 08:54 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] David Miller on TFTorrance's"The Mediation of Christ" Lance Muir wrote: You've come to see the impact that this man has on some of us.Please submit your reflections on this book. Issues involving text and interpretation could then be addressed as well as the nature, distinctives and content of Trinitarian thought. I for one would not like to see Bill Taylor leave TT. This conversation would certainly "cause" him to stay around. If you've not finished it then, we'll all begin at the beginning and work our way through ittogether. Blessings, Lance===Sorry Lance, but I have no desire to read or study this book. Having your ideas printed out does not, in my opinion, make one an authority any more than being the Pope makes you perfect.I doubt that Bill would stay around just to join a book club anyway. He seems to get his feathers ruffled too easily when people question the things he says, and I guarantee you people on here are going to question everything said by everyone. This has been for me a great place to learn, but for one who wants to be accepted as a teacher, my advice is too put on your shin guards and pucker up, 'cause you are going to get kicked on a regular basis. You can't hang with this bunch without taking your licks. How in the world can you be kind to people like Chris and Daniel? If they were just loud and ignorant, that would be one thing, but these people are influencing others, even little children. Same with the Mormons. Nice guys. Probably would make great neighbors, but they are confused enough about God to spend eternity in Hell. Maybe, just maybe, Bill could say something some day that would cause any of these guys to see the light if he hung around and swallowed his pride.If he doesn't teach them a thing, I am sure that in the process. all of us would be strengthened in what we believe. Lord knows that I am woefully ignorant in many areas and could learn much from anyone on this list on how to or how not to (fill in the blank), but just because someone says something, I am not going to accept it without discussion. That is why I don't pay a lot of attention to preachers or authors, or those who aren't eager to say why they think what they think. So if Bill would be willing to stay around for our benefit, that would be great, but if we all have to change to accomodate his mild paranoia, then it is probably better that he go.Blessings,Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Female Teachers
ShieldsFamily wrote: Galatians 5: 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: . enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, . those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. - What if we have disputes with joy and patience? Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Books that aren't the Bible
I know that at least Izzy read one because she wrote it. Has anyone else read a book thatshed a little light on life 'n stuff? I occasionally get the sense that invoking the name of an author with (some) TTers precipitates a sense of dread or, even idolotry. When you hear a preacher, teacher, read a book, have a conversation, watch a movie/TV, etc. your understanding of reality (including ScriptureGod) are altered. Lighten up will ya? Capon, Torrance, Polanyi will not lead you by the nose into heresy. (you could prove that for yourself). Though I was both puzzled and amused by DM's response to Capon I did appreciate his "speaking in defence of God" (God doesn't need your defending David, really). If you believe that I, or any other participant of TT, say little or nothing worthy of serious engagement then, just ignore, delete and move on. Blessings, Lance
RE: [TruthTalk] Female Teachers
-Original Message- What if we have disputes with joy and patience? Terry I could go for that. J Izzy
[TruthTalk] wimpy sorry Men
In a message dated 4/30/2004 10:44:53 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: LAURA, ARE YOU ANOTHER WOMAN WHO OPPOSES THE DOCTRINE THAT EVERY WOMAN MUST BE SUBJECT TO A MALE? I AM MOST SERIOUS ABOUT THIS POINT. IT IS BIBLICAL. ---ELSMAN Absolutely not! I totally agree with the doctrine that women should be in submission and comply with the chains of authority. I see nothing in what Judy or Izzy post or Sherry that indicates they are not under authority. BUT I am not and never will be under your authority! Laura Laura, You are so right. (I am writing this in LARGE red letters so Elsman wont miss it.) These over-self-inflated men (in their own minds) who think that we are not subject to the Lords authority (because their immature, blustery, worldy-fantasy-idea of maleness who beat up on defenseless women is threatened easily) are completely full of their own (bad-smelling) hot air. They should mind their OWN business, their OWN wives (who I pity with the utmost pity), and their OWN walk with the Lord (which is entirely fictional for what they show us on TT.) You must not have a life of your own if you have nothing to do but meddle in ours. WE are NOT in subjection to YOU. I am in the complete approval of my own husband, who often encourages me strongly NOT to leave TT in spite of the NUTCASES here. Elsman, Daniel, Chris, and anyone else of your ilk, please mind your OWN business. God has not yet anointed you as Captain of the World. May the Lord bless you with repentance, salvation, and a sane mind for attempting to take authority over women who are NOT your own. Meanwhile, if you have nothing of worth to add to TT why dont you just go away??? Guess what: NOBODY LIKES YOU HERE. I may have to ask MY husband to beat the devil out of your wimpy sorry meddling assets if you dont take a hint. Id really hate to do that. J Blessings, Izzy PS You ugly men could take a lesson from my husband, who knows how to love and cherish his own wife, who does not attempt to dominate OTHER mens women, and who is always a gentleman, AND walks in the Spirit. Because of him I know a REAL man from pathetic fake/phony/cardboard actors like you. Try to get it together before the Lord calls you into account, as He does judge hypocrites who claim to speak for Him. I only wish to spare you the embarrassment and sorrow of it. (Although you should be embarrassed already.) PPS: When is the last time your own wife smiled? Or wanted to be with you? (know what I mean?) Does she look like a beaten down unhappy little mouse? Hows your married life Wed like to hear it from her not you. J Then we will know how qualified you are to advise other men about their women. J
[TruthTalk] Salvation for all
John S. wrote to Judy: I have no idea why you say the above. There is absolutely no evidence contextually that I can see for concluding that the Gentile of Romans 2 is born again. He is one who has heard nothing. blessed is he who does but has not heard. Hearers are not justified before God. That is a misunderstanding of modern Christianity, that if you hear the gospel, then you are saved. Paul is arguing in Romans that the Gentiles were DOING the law while the Jews were only HEARERS of the law. His argument is that the Gentiles who did not have the LAW (were not hearers of the law) but were DOERS of the law, would surely be justified before God. Read the passage again now: Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) What Gentiles DO the law as a result of the law being written upon their hearts? BORN AGAIN GENTILES. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jeremiah 31:33-34 KJV) John S. wrote: When the Jewish patron left the altar of sacrifice, he was not protected from sin. Can you elaborate upon this? What do you mean? Didn't Job have a hedge of protection about him that Satan complained about? John S. wrote: As a result, sin offering had to be made over and over again, of course. The repetitive nature of sacrifices had to do with the fact that the conscience was never dealt with in these sacrifices. No matter what kind of forgiveness might take place, the worshippers never really felt forgiven, so they kept doing it over and over again. John S. wrote: The blood of Christ is linear in scope and accomplishment. What do you mean by linear? John S. wrote: In regard to the conscience -- do you have a scripture in mind for that statement? I assume she has the book of Hebrews in mind. The sacrifices of Moses could not make us perfect, but the sacrifice of Christ did. The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; (Hebrews 9:8-9 KJV) For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. (Hebrews 7:19 KJV) Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Female Teachers
You said: Dang -- and I was going to encourage you not to reproduce. John Daniel responds: Why do I feel like I am debating with college freshman at UCLA Are you supposed to be the grandpa John? The hoary head is a crown of glory, IF it be found in the way of righteousness. Shame on you, old man! Shabbatting on this Shabbat Shalom, Daniel _ TheFreeSite.com: Home of the Web's best freebies. http://www.thefreesite.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] John mishandles the word again
you said: You once again missed the point, genius. She did not simply ask Jesus -- she told him to do something that He did not want to do. Daniel responds: Hey stupid -- telling your son to go fetch some water is a far cry from instructing a man in doctrinal matters. No grey matter between those ears, eh? you said: The Bible says: We are saved by grace apart by obedience to the Law of Moses (Romans 4) Jere 31 prophecies the end of Law as a covenant relationship. Daniel responds: Ummm, sir -- Romans 3:31 says, and I quote: Do we then make void the TORAH through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the TORAH. So, you're accusing Paul of declaring we do not keep Torah through faith RIGHT AFTER HE MADE THE STATEMENT THAT FAITH ESTABLISHES THE TORAH?!?? YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS And Jeremiah 31 prophecies THE END OF THE TORAH ARE YOU JOKING? BUT THIS SHALL BE THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH HOUSE OF YISRAEL; AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAITH YHVH, I WILL PUT MY TORAH TORAH TORAH TORAH TORAH (emphasis mine) IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS . . . That is REPEATED in Hebrews 8:8-11 Far from the law ending -- THE TORAH IS MAGNIFIED BY NOW BLAZING WITHIN OUR HEARTS!!! Truly the law and the prophets are right when they declare that you, as a torah hating pagan christian, are FILLED WITH DARKNESS!!! To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Shabbatting on this Shabbat Shalom, Daniel John Lee _ TheFreeSite.com: Home of the Web's best freebies. http://www.thefreesite.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Female Teachers
Jonathan states: Ok let me get this straight. YHVH is the center of the universe but the Torah is even more central? The law is more important than YHVH Himself? Please give me an example where the Torah states that it is above God Himself. Daniel responds: BE GLAD TOOO!!! Psalm 138:2 . . . for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. The Torah -- Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deut comprise the first 5 books of that WORD. YAHVAH HAS EXALTED THIS WORD, INCLUDING HIS TORAH, ABOVE HIS OWN NAME!! Jonatha said: How are you anything more than a modern day Pharisee? Daniel responds: Let me spell it out for you, Pharisee. The Pharisees were ones WHO CLAIMED THEY LOVED YHVH, yet through their vain traditions broke several laws in Torah. You modern day pagan Christians claim you love God, yet trough your pagan traditions (easter, christmas, sunday worship, eating pork, etc) break several laws in the Torah. It's EASY to see who the modern day Pharisees are -- THE PAGAN CHRISTIANS -- CATHOLICS AND PROTESTANTS. YahVah rebuke you all. Jonathan said: Do you offer animal sacrifices as well? Doves, sheep, cattle? Daniel said: I do offer Torah sacrifices, yes. See I Peter 2:5 for details. Jonathan said: Or is that part of the Torah something you can safely ignore? Daniel responds: When Daniel was in exile in Babylon 2500 years ago -- he could not do sacrifices because the templed in Yisrael had been burned to the ground. Did this abrograte Daniel's responsbility to keep what parts of Torah he still could? We know, for example, that Daniel continued to eat kosher and follow the Torah dietary laws. We believers in YahShua are currently living in exile -- in a world of sin controlled by the spirit of Babylon. But just because we cannot keep all of the Torah because the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, does that abrograte our responsibility to keep what parts of Torah we can?? NO, NO, AND AGAIN I SAY NO!!! What part of forever do you Christians not understand??? it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations. it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month. ALL THREE ABOVE STATEMENTS ARE SCRIPTURES FROM LEV 23. Guess what they speak relate too You got it --- KEEPING TORAH! Shabbatting on this Shabbat Shalom, Daniel John Lee _ TheFreeSite.com: Home of the Web's best freebies. http://www.thefreesite.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Female Teachers
David Miller wrote: Isn't this exactly what both the angels of God and Jesus himself instructed women to do in passages like Mat. 28? Daniel responds: The last few verses of Matthew 28 are given to the 11 disciples -- ALL MALE. I was not talking about the last few verses. I was talking about verses 7-10, which were the verses that I quoted. Certainly the 11 apostles were all male, but mentioning only the eleven does not mean that only the eleven were there. Acts 1 clearly tells us that women and other men continued with the eleven in prayer and supplication during this time. Daniel wrote: Females are not sent to do this -- MALES ARE. Females can aid, support and inspire -- BUT THEY BETTER GET OUT OF THE WORK PLACE (INCLUDING SPIRITUAL WORK PLACE) AND THE MEN BETTER START BEING MEN AND TAKING CHARGE!!! Did not the Lord send the sister of Moses, Miriam? Was she not one of three mentioned by the prophet Micah? For I brought thee up out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of servants; and I SENT BEFORE THEE Moses, Aaron, and MIRIAM. (Micah 6:4 KJV) Daniel wrote: Glad there were no females amongst those 11 apostles -- David Miller would make a lousy YahShua. If you knew the language, you would know that it was Yeshua, not Yahshua. In any case, men should be the ones to rule. The problem here is that you recognize that but then use it to oppress women. Yah will judge you for that. Men need to learn to lay down their lives when they rule over women. They should lay down in the mud puddles, even give their lives for the women. That's what Jesus did for us. Men should rule by serving. This is what Jesus taught. Daniel wrote: Miller would probably have selected a woman to be one of the 11. Scary thought. No. Wrong guess. The twelve have a special place of government (rulership) entrusted to them. They should all be men. David wrote: And go quickly, and TELL his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you. And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word. And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me. (Matthew 28:7-10 KJV) Daniel wrote: If females want to announce to other men at a certain time (2000 years ago) that Jesus rose from the dead -- fine. Big difference between that and TEACHING DOCTRINE LIKE JEZEBEL JUDY DOES. Now you are backpedaling. I previously asked you the following: David Miller wrote: If a group of women were to instruct men of God about the resurrection of Christ and instruct them on where they should travel and hold meetings, would that be considered teaching by you, teaching that would be forbidden by Jesus? Then you responded with: Daniel wrote: Yes that would be teaching and yes, females would not be allowed to do such a thing per I Timothy 2. Jesus instructed women to witness to others about his resurrection, and he instructed these women to tell the men to travel more than a day's journey to a specific location where he would meet with them. First you tell me that this would be violating 1 Timothy 2. Now you tell me that Judy does something different. Stay with the subject and leave Judy out of it. The point here is that you condemned Jesus and these angels by saying that what they did was not permitted by 1 Timothy 2. Your perspective is that they should not have told these women to do what they did. Your understanding is faulty here. David wrote: Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. (Matthew 28:16 KJV) How did Jesus appoint them this place? Through the women, as mentioned in Mat. 28 above. Daniel wrote: Fine, females can give directions. THAT IS NOT TEACHING DOCTRINE, hypocrite. You keep changing your definition every time you are shown to be wrong. I have asked you several times to define your terms, but you have not done so. You will never become honest or correctable if you do not nail down your terms and stick with them. Nobody can ever show you that you are wrong either. You should desire for people to show you to be wrong, because that is how you will grow in knowledge. David wrote: They means both Aquilla AND Priscilla. It was not just Aquilla expounding the word of God more fully unto Apollos. It was THEY. This means that PRISCILLA was expounding the Word of God to Apollos. Daniel wrote: No -- Priscilla was not expounding the Word of God because that would violate I Timothy 2. You are doing what in logic is called a tautology. You are begging the question. Your
[TruthTalk] To quote Jim Webber . . .
Galatians 5: 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: . enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, . those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Daniel responds: Yes, HALLALUYAH AGAIN And the grandpa John and Izzy along with an assorted variety of jezebel females on this board have been acting in the flesh with childish remarks like: gee, Daniel, I was going to tell you not to reproduce you just don't get it, do you Daniel? (and this refuted my scriptural article) hey stupid -- Yes, whereas every single statement I have made has been straight from the Ruach. You little devils just don't like it!!! Nevertheless, I love you little devils (as Mr. Webber once said at UO in Eugene, Oregon). Shabbatting on this Shabbat Shalom, Daniel John Lee -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. _ TheFreeSite.com: Home of the Web's best freebies. http://www.thefreesite.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] John tries?????
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 4/30/2004 7:05:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Galatians 5: 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: . enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, . those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. John said: Ok okI am trying to keep this in mind. Daniel responds: You are trying to keep this in mind Was that before or after you hoped I didn't produce any children??? Tell me, sinner john, do you also try not to commit adultery? Do you try not to beat your wife? Do you try to not masturbate? Do you try to obey Jesus You are one pathetic sinner. Shabbatting and REJOICING IN THE PURITY OF YAHSHUA, Daniel John Lee -- www.TorahandSpirit.com _ TheFreeSite.com: Home of the Web's best freebies. http://www.thefreesite.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] elsman -- you were doing so good!!!
elsman said: I NEVER SAID JEWS DID NOT DO WASHINGS---THEY DID. THEY ALSO CUT THE END OFF THEIR PENISWELL, YOU DON'T HAVE TO FOLLOW ALL 613!! INDEED, GALATIANS SAYS YOU ARE FREE!! Daniel responds: A, elsman, and YOU WERE DOING SO GOOD REBUFFING THOSE JEZEBELS!!! Why did you have to go and mess it up with such an UNSCRIPTURAL AND UNBIBLICAL STATEMENT??? Galatians says we are free to disobey YHVH??? Galatians says we can forget what YHVH said would last forever??? Rabbi Shaul (Apostle Paul) encouraged the Galatians not to obey the commandments given from YHVH Galatians tells us to disobey Jesus?? My, my. As Mr. Ken Jones told me when I sojourned with him back in Spring of 2000, Jesus was a legalist. The definition of legalism means -- expert in the law. And Jesus was AN EXPERT IN THE LAW. You, elsman, may be an expert in American Law -- but you are far from being an expert in Yah's Law. Sorry, elsman, Galatians SAYS NOTHING OF THE SORT. You ought to humble yourself and read my Galatians artcile -- posted at www.TorahandSpirit.com and attempt to refute it. If you continue promoting a gospel that encourages rebellion against Torah you shall forever be accursed -- along with those jezebels! And just to help you out -- here's the Galatians artcile one more time: Part IV: Galatians Posted by Daniel John Lee on April 24, 2004 at 18:24:27: Joyous Shabbat Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua!!! On this 21st omer, less than a month until Pentecost, we will move on to Part IV of the Apostle Paul series. Galatians has been one of the most misunderstood, misapplied books of the entire Bible. Because most Christians fail to understand the controversy that raged amongst believing Jews in the 1st century, they make a host of wrong assumptions that makes Paul's statement say the exact opposite of what he intended. This, part, hopefully, will set the record straight for those who read. Paul's introduction to the book of Galatians is: 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. So the problem is simple: the believers in Galatia have removed themselves from the gospel of grace and replaced it with a perverted gospel. The question we must ask ourselves is: what IS this gospel of grace and what IS this perverted gospel that has bewitched the Galatians? If we answer either of these questions wrong, we will not understand this book at all. If we answer them correctly, the entire book will make sense. A few verses later, Paul begins to indicate what the perverted gospel is: 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the congregations of God, and wasted it: 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. Now we have our answer. The perverted gospel of which Paul used to be a follower is the traditions of my fathers. The very Talmudic, Jewish traditions which YahShua repeatedly rebuked the Pharisees for is the perverted gospel. Paul was not zealous of the Torah, the WRITTEN WORD OF YHVH -- he was zealous of the traditions of my fathers -- the oral, man-made Pharisaical traditions that made void the very Torah they claimed to keep. So, very clearly, Paul defines the perverted gospel = the orthodox, man-made Pharisaical, Talmudic rules of apostate Judaism. Paul then proceeds to recount his first several years as a believer. At the beginning of chapter 2, as he is recounting his travels, he says: 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. Now Paul is beginning to talk about those who were worshipping the perverted gospel and that the twisted, man-made Pharisaical rules of orthodox Jewry have one aim: to strip away the freedom in YahShua and bring others under bondage. We know Paul is not talking about Torah for not only does I John 5 say the
RE: [TruthTalk] David Miller on TFTorrance's The Mediation of Christ
Lance wrote: You've come to see the impact that this man has on some of us. Please submit your reflections on this book. Issues involving text and interpretation could then be addressed as well as the nature, distinctives and content of Trinitarian thought. Hi Lance. I appreciate the invitation to discuss this book, but I must confess that I'm a little nervous about doing so. This book was very precious to Bill, and I don't think I appreciated it as much as he did. Maybe we should first talk about how I talk about things. Elsman recently said that I am the nabob of negativism. I asked my wife about that. Do you think I am a negative person? She said no, but she did say that I nit pick. She explained what I think Elsman was trying to say. I realize that my training in science was to be skeptical of everything we read. We were drilled to read something and then find everything wrong with it. Question everything and assume nothing. Give nobody the benefit of the doubt, no matter what his reputation. I think I carry that over to TruthTalk and it disturbs people like Sherry, Bill, Elsman, and perhaps others. I certainly have a lot of thoughts about Torrance's book. I jotted down some notes for future consideration. However, at this time, I think I am more concerned about maybe changing the way I talk to people so that I don't put off such great people like Bill. I enjoy people who are knowledgeable and educated, especially in areas where I am not. Maybe now is a time for me to be more quiet and listen to Bill a little bit more. One thing is for sure, I do not want to run him off by saying something disturbing to him about the book, The Mediation of Christ. Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed reading the book, but many of my comments might not be as positive as Bill would like. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Exodus 31 Shabbat
31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. Notice, in relation to keeping the Shabbat (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday), Yah uses the words FOREVER -- PERPETUAL COVENANT -- THROUGHOUT THEIR GENERATIONS. What part of forever or perpetual do you pagan Christians not understand??? It's Sabbath RIGHT NOW -- what are you going to do about it??? Shabbatting on this Shabbat Shalom because I love Messiah YahShua, Daniel John Lee -- www.TorahandSpirit.com _ TheFreeSite.com: Home of the Web's best freebies. http://www.thefreesite.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Exodus 31 Shabbat
Daniel, Hypocrites like you make me ashamed to associate myself with Sabbath keepers, although I am one. Who are you to make assumptions about people you don't even know? You are a prime example of why it is more important to walk in the fruit of the Spirit than to keep every jot and tittle of the law. And if you don't want to be corrected by a woman you'd better start acting like a real man. Go ask Yeshua what that means. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Daniel Lee Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 8:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] Exodus 31 Shabbat 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. Notice, in relation to keeping the Shabbat (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday), Yah uses the words FOREVER -- PERPETUAL COVENANT -- THROUGHOUT THEIR GENERATIONS. What part of forever or perpetual do you pagan Christians not understand??? It's Sabbath RIGHT NOW -- what are you going to do about it??? Shabbatting on this Shabbat Shalom because I love Messiah YahShua, Daniel John Lee -- www.TorahandSpirit.com _ TheFreeSite.com: Home of the Web's best freebies. http://www.thefreesite.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Female Teachers
In a message dated 4/30/2004 7:05:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Galatians 5: 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: . enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, . those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Subj: [TruthTalk] wimpy sorry "Men" Date: 4/30/2004 4:06:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent from the Internet (Details) In a message dated 4/30/2004 10:44:53 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: LAURA, ARE YOU ANOTHER WOMAN WHO OPPOSES THE DOCTRINE THAT EVERY WOMAN MUST BE SUBJECT TO A MALE? I AM MOST SERIOUS ABOUT THIS POINT. IT IS BIBLICAL. ---ELSMAN Absolutely not! I totally agree with the doctrine that women should be in submission and comply with the chains of authority. I see nothing in what Judy or Izzy post or Sherry that indicates they are not under authority. BUT I am not and never will be under your authority! Laura Laura, You are so right. (I am writing this in LARGE red letters so Elsman wont miss it.) These over-self-inflated men (in their own minds) who think that we are not subject to the Lords authority (because their immature, blustery, worldy-fantasy-idea of maleness who beat up on defenseless women is threatened easily) are completely full of their own (bad-smelling) hot air. They should mind their OWN business, their OWN wives (who I pity with the utmost pity), and their OWN walk with the Lord (which is entirely fictional for what they show us on TT.) You must not have a life of your own if you have nothing to do but meddle in ours. WE are NOT in subjection to YOU. I am in the complete approval of my own husband, who often encourages me strongly NOT to leave TT in spite of the NUTCASES here. Elsman, Daniel, Chris, and anyone else of your ilk, please mind your OWN business. God has not yet anointed you as Captain of the World. May the Lord bless you with repentance, salvation, and a sane mind for attempting to take authority over women who are NOT your own. Meanwhile, if you have nothing of worth to add to TT why dont you just go away??? Guess what: NOBODY LIKES YOU HERE. I may have to ask MY husband to beat the devil out of your wimpy sorry meddling assets if you dont take a hint. Id really hate to do that. J Blessings, Izzy PS You ugly men could take a lesson from my husband, who knows how to love and cherish his own wife, who does not attempt to dominate OTHER mens women, and who is always a gentleman, AND walks in the Spirit. Because of him I know a REAL man from pathetic fake/phony/cardboard actors like you. Try to get it together before the Lord calls you into account, as He does judge hypocrites who claim to speak for Him. I only wish to spare you the embarrassment and sorrow of it. (Although you should be embarrassed already.) PPS: When is the last time your own wife smiled? Or wanted to be with you? (know what I mean?) Does she look like a beaten down unhappy little mouse? Hows your married life Wed like to hear it from her not you. J Then we will know how qualified you are to advise other men about their women. J
RE: [TruthTalk] Female Teachers
One of the most common Hebrew words for teach that is used in scripture is: yara which means to point out, inform, instruct. FEMALES ARE NEVER ALLOWED TO DO THIS TO MEN per I Timothy 2. Women shouting out that YahShua resurrected would be like my mom shouting out to me, Daniel -- we just found out your dad did not die in the hospital after all!!! HOW THE HELL IS THAT TEACHING DOCTRINE??? (only hellish thinking could think this) Females telling the men where to meet YahShua is like my mom saying, Daniel, the hospital is down Main street. Hang a left and you will find it. Your dad should be up when you arrive at the hospital. HOW THE HELL IS THAT TEACHING DOCTRINE (only hellish thinkinh could think this) STOP CHANGING TH SUBJECT, HYPOCRITE AND SINNER DAVID MILLER!!! Judy Jezebel is a wicked jezebel, along with the assorted other peacock females you have on this joke of a forum -- and they urinate on I Timothy 2 with their disgusting and vile posts!! YahVah rebuke those jezebels and YahVah rebuke the dung that continues to spill out of your mouth, David Miller!!! Shabbatting on this Shabbat Shalom and resting in the love of YahShua, Daniel John Lee _ TheFreeSite.com: Home of the Web's best freebies. http://www.thefreesite.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Female Teachers
One of the most common Hebrew words for teach that is used in scripture is: yara which means to point out, inform, instruct. FEMALES ARE NEVER ALLOWED TO DO THIS TO MEN per I Timothy 2. Women shouting out that YahShua resurrected would be like my mom shouting out to me, Daniel -- we just found out your dad did not die in the hospital after all!!! HOW THE HELL IS THAT TEACHING DOCTRINE??? (only hellish thinking could think this) Females telling the men where to meet YahShua is like my mom saying, Daniel, the hospital is down Main street. Hang a left and you will find it. Your dad should be up when you arrive at the hospital. HOW THE HELL IS THAT TEACHING DOCTRINE (only hellish thinkinh could think this) STOP CHANGING TH SUBJECT, HYPOCRITE AND SINNER DAVID MILLER!!! Judy Jezebel is a wicked jezebel, along with the assorted other peacock females you have on this joke of a forum -- and they urinate on I Timothy 2 with their disgusting and vile posts!! YahVah rebuke those jezebels and YahVah rebuke the dung that continues to spill out of your mouth, David Miller!!! Shabbatting on this Shabbat Shalom and resting in the love of YahShua, Daniel John Lee _ TheFreeSite.com: Home of the Web's best freebies. http://www.thefreesite.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Female Teachers
I AM being joyful and patient! J Izzy (VERY joyful!!!) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 8:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Female Teachers In a message dated 4/30/2004 7:05:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Galatians 5: 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: . enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, . those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Subj: [TruthTalk] wimpy sorry Men Date: 4/30/2004 4:06:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent from the Internet (Details) In a message dated 4/30/2004 10:44:53 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: LAURA, ARE YOU ANOTHER WOMAN WHO OPPOSES THE DOCTRINE THAT EVERY WOMAN MUST BE SUBJECT TO A MALE? I AM MOST SERIOUS ABOUT THIS POINT. IT IS BIBLICAL. ---ELSMAN Absolutely not! I totally agree with the doctrine that women should be in submission and comply with the chains of authority. I see nothing in what Judy or Izzy post or Sherry that indicates they are not under authority. BUT I am not and never will be under your authority! Laura Laura, You are so right. (I am writing this in LARGE red letters so Elsman wont miss it.) These over-self-inflated men (in their own minds) who think that we are not subject to the Lords authority (because their immature, blustery, worldy-fantasy-idea of maleness who beat up on defenseless women is threatened easily) are completely full of their own (bad-smelling) hot air. They should mind their OWN business, their OWN wives (who I pity with the utmost pity), and their OWN walk with the Lord (which is entirely fictional for what they show us on TT.) You must not have a life of your own if you have nothing to do but meddle in ours. WE are NOT in subjection to YOU. I am in the complete approval of my own husband, who often encourages me strongly NOT to leave TT in spite of the NUTCASES here. Elsman, Daniel, Chris, and anyone else of your ilk, please mind your OWN business. God has not yet anointed you as Captain of the World. May the Lord bless you with repentance, salvation, and a sane mind for attempting to take authority over women who are NOT your own. Meanwhile, if you have nothing of worth to add to TT why dont you just go away??? Guess what: NOBODY LIKES YOU HERE. I may have to ask MY husband to beat the devil out of your wimpy sorry meddling assets if you dont take a hint. Id really hate to do that. J Blessings, Izzy PS You ugly men could take a lesson from my husband, who knows how to love and cherish his own wife, who does not attempt to dominate OTHER mens women, and who is always a gentleman, AND walks in the Spirit. Because of him I know a REAL man from pathetic fake/phony/cardboard actors like you. Try to get it together before the Lord calls you into account, as He does judge hypocrites who claim to speak for Him. I only wish to spare you the embarrassment and sorrow of it. (Although you should be embarrassed already.) PPS: When is the last time your own wife smiled? Or wanted to be with you? (know what I mean?) Does she look like a beaten down unhappy little mouse? Hows your married life Wed like to hear it from her not you. J Then we will know how qualified you are to advise other men about their women. J
RE: [TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH
Judy wrote: Note: I find it interesting in light of the brouhaha over the incarnation that there are no types for this (that I am aware of) in the OT and it is not mentioned in the teaching of the apostles. Do you mean no types for baptism? The laver is a big typology of baptism. Or did you mean the incarnation? There is much typology for that too. As for Elsman's baptism theology, it is hyper-dispensational teaching that there is only one baptism... spirit baptism. Quaker's believe this. Study the arguments of the Quakers about baptism and you will find the arguments that Elsman makes. They are pretty weak arguments in my opinion, but then Quakers believed doctrine and teaching were secondary to feelings. You might like to know that Elsman learned this doctrine from Holy Hubert Lindsey himself. Hubert strongly opposed water baptism, considering it a great source of damnation. From his perspective, it was like commanding believers to be circumcised, and like Paul argued against circumcision to the Galatian churches, Hubert argued that people were damning others to hell fire by commanding them to be baptized in water. Of course, Hubert also believed once-saved-always-saved until he was in his sixties. Then his understanding was opened in that area. Too bad he didn't get straightened out on water baptism too. If Hubert had taught right about water baptism, then Elsman would be teaching right about it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Exodus 31 Shabbat
Hello Izzy whore (I CALL YOU A WHORE BECAUSE YOU OBVIOUSLY FORNICATE WITH THE BABYLONIAN SPIRIT OF COMPROMISE) Anyway, izzy whore jezebel, In typical idiot female fashion, you did not even respond to my post but just launched into a female tryaid that makes a woman on her period look like an angel. Calmed down yet, whore? You did say: You are a prime example of why it is more important to walk in the fruit of the Spirit than to keep every jot and tittle of the law. YahShua said in Matthew 23:23 the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you just stated. And we wonder why females are not supposed to teach??? ROFL. you also said: And if you don't want to be corrected by a woman you'd better start acting like a real man. Go ask Yeshua what that means. Izzy Daniel responds: You are a whore, fornicating with Babylon, and do not deserve the honorable title of woman. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Daniel Lee Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 8:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] Exodus 31 Shabbat 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. Notice, in relation to keeping the Shabbat (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday), Yah uses the words FOREVER -- PERPETUAL COVENANT -- THROUGHOUT THEIR GENERATIONS. What part of forever or perpetual do you pagan Christians not understand??? It's Sabbath RIGHT NOW -- what are you going to do about it??? Shabbatting on this Shabbat Shalom because I love Messiah YahShua, Daniel John Lee -- www.TorahandSpirit.com _ TheFreeSite.com: Home of the Web's best freebies. http://www.thefreesite.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. _ TheFreeSite.com: Home of the Web's best freebies. http://www.thefreesite.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH
In a message dated 4/30/2004 10:02:27 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You might like to know that Elsman learned this doctrine from HolyHubert Lindsey himself. Hubert strongly opposed water baptism,considering it a great source of damnation. From his perspective, itwas like commanding believers to be circumcised, and like Paul arguedagainst circumcision to the Galatian churches, Hubert argued that peoplewere damning others to hell fire by commanding them to be baptized inwater. Of course, Hubert also believed once-saved-always-saved until hewas in his sixties. Then his understanding was opened in that area.Too bad he didn't get straightened out on water baptism too. If Huberthad taught right about water baptism, then Elsman would be teachingright about it. :-)Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. So Elsman bases his views on Holy Hubert? Hmm It's dangerous to base your beliefs on a "man" right? Or am I wrong? Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Salvation for all
In a message dated 4/30/2004 6:31:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hearers are not justified before God. That is a misunderstanding of modern Christianity, that if you hear the gospel, then you are saved. Paul is arguing in Romans that the Gentiles were DOING the law while the Jews were only HEARERS of the law. His argument is that the Gentiles who did not have the LAW (were not hearers of the law) but were DOERS of the law, would surely be justified before God. Read the passage again now: That is not what the passage says. When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature the things of the law is the picture given in Romans 2. To be more specific -- Paul includes those who have never heard the law. Christ tells us the whole law is fulfilled in two command and I believe these can be known instinctively (loving God and loving our neighbor). David says: What Gentiles DO the law as a result of the law being written upon their hearts? BORN AGAIN GENTILES. John replies: You make this conclusion, not scripture. Scripture clearly tells us which Gentiles do by nature the things of the law -- it those in this example who have not heard the law and its requirements. If these were born again Christians there would be no question as to their salvation -- but salvation is not a sure thing in this passage .. compare Romans 2:15 and the stated option in regard to judgment day. David writes: John S. wrote: When the Jewish patron left the altar of sacrifice, he was not protected from sin. Can you elaborate upon this? What do you mean? Didn't Job have a hedge of protection about him that Satan complained about? John replies: What God accomplished for a particular individual does not a theology make. Are you in disagreement with my statement? Do you believe that the offering of bulls and goats afforded linear protection for the OT patron? David writes: The repetitive nature of sacrifices had to do with the fact that the conscience was never dealt with in these sacrifices. No matter what kind of forgiveness might take place, the worshippers never really felt forgiven, so they kept doing it over and over again. John replies: Whether or not this is a biblical observation is beside the point. When you write "No matter what kind of forgiveness might take place " are you admitting that forgiveness did take place and was specific in scope rather than on-going --- because that is my point. David writes: What do you mean by linear? John replies: I find it interesting that we had that big "discussion" regarding "linear" sometime back (IJo 1:8) and you don't know what "linear" means continual action with no end in sight. David writes: John S. wrote: In regard to the conscience -- do you have a scripture in mind for that statement? I assume she has the book of Hebrews in mind. The sacrifices of Moses could not make us perfect, but the sacrifice of Christ did. John replies: Good guess and I would agree. And what does that have to do with Paul's presentation in Romans 2. Did you miss the point I made about Paul saying one thing and the Hebrew writer saying something else? In His Grace John
Re: [TruthTalk] Female Teachers
In a message dated 4/30/2004 7:09:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You said: Dang -- and I was going to encourage you not to reproduce. John Daniel responds: Why do I feel like I am debating with college freshman at UCLA Ditto on that, kid. J
Re: [TruthTalk] John mishandles the word again
Deleted. In a message dated 4/30/2004 7:17:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Subj: [TruthTalk] John mishandles the word again Date: 4/30/2004 7:17:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent from the Internet you said: You once again missed the point, genius. She did not simply ask Jesus -- she told him to do something that He did not want to do. Daniel responds: Hey stupid -- telling your son to go fetch some water is a far cry from instructing a man in doctrinal matters. No grey matter between those ears, eh? you said: The Bible says: We are saved by grace apart by obedience to the Law of Moses (Romans 4) Jere 31 prophecies the end of Law as a covenant relationship. Daniel responds: Ummm, sir -- Romans 3:31 says, and I quote: "Do we then make void the TORAH through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the TORAH." So, you're accusing Paul of declaring we do not keep Torah through faith RIGHT AFTER HE MADE THE STATEMENT THAT FAITH ESTABLISHES THE TORAH?!?? YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS And Jeremiah 31 prophecies THE END OF THE TORAH ARE YOU JOKING? "BUT THIS SHALL BE THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH HOUSE OF YISRAEL; AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAITH YHVH, I WILL PUT MY TORAH TORAH TORAH TORAH TORAH (emphasis mine) IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS . . ." That is REPEATED in Hebrews 8:8-11 Far from the law ending -- THE TORAH IS MAGNIFIED BY NOW BLAZING WITHIN OUR HEARTS!!! Truly the law and the prophets are right when they declare that you, as a torah hating pagan christian, are FILLED WITH DARKNESS!!! To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Shabbatting on this Shabbat Shalom, Daniel John Lee _ TheFreeSite.com: Home of the Web's best freebies. http://www.thefreesite.com -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] To quote Jim Webber . . .
In a message dated 4/30/2004 7:31:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I love you little devils Of course you do.
Re: [TruthTalk] Female Teachers
Perry -- wake up John In a message dated 4/30/2004 7:58:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One of the most common Hebrew words for teach that is used in scripture is: yara which means "to point out, inform, instruct". FEMALES ARE NEVER ALLOWED TO DO THIS TO MEN per I Timothy 2. Women shouting out that YahShua resurrected would be like my mom shouting out to me, "Daniel -- we just found out your dad did not die in the hospital after all!!!" HOW THE HELL IS THAT TEACHING DOCTRINE??? (only hellish thinking could think this) Females telling the men where to meet YahShua is like my mom saying, "Daniel, the hospital is down Main street. Hang a left and you will find it. Your dad should be up when you arrive at the hospital." HOW THE HELL IS THAT TEACHING DOCTRINE (only hellish thinkinh could think this) STOP CHANGING TH SUBJECT, HYPOCRITE AND SINNER DAVID MILLER!!! Judy Jezebel is a wicked jezebel, along with the assorted other peacock females you have on this joke of a forum -- and they urinate on I Timothy 2 with their disgusting and vile posts!! YahVah rebuke those jezebels and YahVah rebuke the dung that continues to spill out of your mouth, David Miller!!! Shabbatting on this Shabbat Shalom and resting in the love of YahShua, Daniel John Lee _ TheFreeSite.com: Home of the Web's best freebies. http://www.thefreesite.com -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Female Teachers
In a message dated 4/30/2004 8:00:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: AM being joyful and patient! J Izzy (VERY joyful!!!) Just checkin John
Re: [TruthTalk] Exodus 31 Shabbat
Perry -- do we have rules or not? John In a message dated 4/30/2004 8:16:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hello Izzy whore (I CALL YOU A WHORE BECAUSE YOU OBVIOUSLY FORNICATE WITH THE BABYLONIAN SPIRIT OF COMPROMISE) Anyway, izzy "whore" jezebel, In typical idiot female fashion, you did not even respond to my post but just launched into a female tryaid that makes a woman on her period look like an angel. Calmed down yet, whore? You did say: You are a prime example of why it is more important to walk in the fruit of the Spirit than to keep every jot and tittle of the law. YahShua said in Matthew 23:23 the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you just stated. And we wonder why females are not supposed to teach??? ROFL. you also said: And if you don't want to be corrected by a woman you'd better start acting like a real man. Go ask Yeshua what that means. Izzy Daniel responds: You are a whore, fornicating with Babylon, and do not deserve the honorable title of woman.
Re: [TruthTalk] Exodus 31 Shabbat
Perry and all -- I just read this post again -- I cannot tell you how angry I am right now. Izzy has been nothing but gracious, even when she disagrees. She does not need to have to even deal with this clown. It should be a simple thing to eliminate this loser from the list. John In a message dated 4/30/2004 9:00:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perry -- do we have rules or not? John In a message dated 4/30/2004 8:16:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hello Izzy whore (I CALL YOU A WHORE BECAUSE YOU OBVIOUSLY FORNICATE WITH THE BABYLONIAN SPIRIT OF COMPROMISE) Anyway, izzy "whore" jezebel, In typical idiot female fashion, you did not even respond to my post but just launched into a female tryaid that makes a woman on her period look like an angel. Calmed down yet, whore? You did say: You are a prime example of why it is more important to walk in the fruit of the Spirit than to keep every jot and tittle of the law. YahShua said in Matthew 23:23 the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you just stated. And we wonder why females are not supposed to teach??? ROFL. you also said: And if you don't want to be corrected by a woman you'd better start acting like a real man. Go ask Yeshua what that means. Izzy Daniel responds: You are a whore, fornicating with Babylon, and do not deserve the honorable title of woman.
RE: [TruthTalk] Exodus 31 Shabbat
You can kiss my kitty litter you little pud. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Daniel Lee Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 9:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Exodus 31 Shabbat Hello Izzy whore (I CALL YOU A WHORE BECAUSE YOU OBVIOUSLY FORNICATE WITH THE BABYLONIAN SPIRIT OF COMPROMISE) Anyway, izzy whore jezebel, In typical idiot female fashion, you did not even respond to my post but just launched into a female tryaid that makes a woman on her period look like an angel. Calmed down yet, whore? You did say: You are a prime example of why it is more important to walk in the fruit of the Spirit than to keep every jot and tittle of the law. YahShua said in Matthew 23:23 the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you just stated. And we wonder why females are not supposed to teach??? ROFL. you also said: And if you don't want to be corrected by a woman you'd better start acting like a real man. Go ask Yeshua what that means. Izzy Daniel responds: You are a whore, fornicating with Babylon, and do not deserve the honorable title of woman. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Daniel Lee Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 8:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] Exodus 31 Shabbat 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. Notice, in relation to keeping the Shabbat (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday), Yah uses the words FOREVER -- PERPETUAL COVENANT -- THROUGHOUT THEIR GENERATIONS. What part of forever or perpetual do you pagan Christians not understand??? It's Sabbath RIGHT NOW -- what are you going to do about it??? Shabbatting on this Shabbat Shalom because I love Messiah YahShua, Daniel John Lee -- www.TorahandSpirit.com _ TheFreeSite.com: Home of the Web's best freebies. http://www.thefreesite.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. _ TheFreeSite.com: Home of the Web's best freebies. http://www.thefreesite.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Salvation for all
David Miller wrote: His argument is that the Gentiles who did not have the LAW (were not hearers of the law) but were DOERS of the law, would surely be justified before God. Read the passage again now: John S. wrote: That is not what the passage says. When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature the things of the law is the picture given in Romans 2. To be more specific -- Paul includes those who have never heard the law. I think that is what I just said. The Gentiles, who had never heard the law, were doers of the law, having the law written upon their hearts. What Gentiles have the law written upon their hearts and are doers of the law? Those who have encountered Christ and are born again. David Miller wrote: What Gentiles DO the law as a result of the law being written upon their hearts? BORN AGAIN GENTILES. John wrote: You make this conclusion, not scripture. Scripture clearly tells us which Gentiles do by nature the things of the law -- it those in this example who have not heard the law and its requirements. Right. What Gentiles would these be? Is there any way to be righteous, to love God and your neighbor as yourself, outside of Jesus Christ? These would be Gentiles who had not the law, but who believed the gospel of Jesus Christ and received the law written upon their hearts. Romans 2:14 says that the Gentiles do by nature the things contained in the law. What Gentile does BY NATURE the things contained in the law? Human nature is contrary to the law. Read Romans 7. Only the new nature created in Christ Jesus is the nature which causes us to do by nature the things contained in the law. John S. wrote: If these were born again Christians there would be no question as to their salvation -- but salvation is not a sure thing in this passage .. compare Romans 2:15 and the stated option in regard to judgment day. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) (Romans 2:15 KJV) What stated option? I don't follow you. John S. wrote: When the Jewish patron left the altar of sacrifice, he was not protected from sin. David Miller wrote: Can you elaborate upon this? What do you mean? Didn't Job have a hedge of protection about him that Satan complained about? John wrote: What God accomplished for a particular individual does not a theology make. Are you in disagreement with my statement? No. John S. wrote: Do you believe that the offering of bulls and goats afforded linear protection for the OT patron? I don't know what linear protection means. I don't know what you mean by protect from sin. Do you mean deliver from temptation? David wrote: The repetitive nature of sacrifices had to do with the fact that the conscience was never dealt with in these sacrifices. No matter what kind of forgiveness might take place, the worshippers never really felt forgiven, so they kept doing it over and over again. John wrote: Whether or not this is a biblical observation is beside the point. When you write No matter what kind of forgiveness might take place are you admitting that forgiveness did take place and was specific in scope rather than on-going --- because that is my point. I agree with you that forgiveness took place, but I don't understand what you mean by specific in scope versus on-going forgiveness. Forgiveness under the Mosaic covenant was on-going in the sense that people continued to sin and continued to be forgiven. David wrote: What do you mean by linear? John wrote: I find it interesting that we had that big discussion regarding linear sometime back (IJo 1:8) and you don't know what linear means continual action with no end in sight. Oh, you are using a grammatical term in a non-grammatical context. Ok. You have to bear with me. In science when we talk about cause and effect relationships, we might describe them as linear or curvilinear, depending on the type of relationship. So when you say that the blood of Christ is linear in scope and accomplishment, you mean it is ongoing. In other words, I guess you are saying that it is dynamically applied over time when needed? It seems to me that the Hebrew sacrifices also were applied this way, but because they had no effect upon the conscience, they kept repeating the sacrifices over and over again. I'm tempted to draw upon Torrance to talk about why they did not effect the conscience but Christ did, but I guess that is another topic. :-) In terms of how people applied the sacrifice to their lives, though, is there any difference between how people appropriate the blood of Christ and the blood of bulls and goats? Don't we all come back for forgiveness if we fall and miss the mark? John S. wrote: Did you miss the point I made about Paul saying one
[TruthTalk] Longsuffering is a fruit of the Spirit
John S. wrote: It should be a simple thing to eliminate this loser from the list. Take strength from the Word of God, John. :-) Gal 5:22, But the fruit of the Spirit is ... longsuffering But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things. (2 Corinthians 6:4-10 KJV) That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness. (Colossians 1:10-11 KJV) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another ... (Colossians 3:12-16 KJV) Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] John mishandles the word again
Perry, I seriously doubt you frivolous pagan Christians who HATE THE TORAH -- the very law Jesus came to magnify -- would ever consider my truth inspired posts seriously. So, if you want to keep crying like a baby, fine. But I'd recommend some words by Rush Limbaugh -- DEAL WITH IT. PEOPLE GET OFFENDED. GROW UP. _ TheFreeSite.com: Home of the Web's best freebies. http://www.thefreesite.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] c'mon -- let the whore take it, john!
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perry and all -- I just read this post again -- I cannot tell you how angry I am right now. Izzy has been nothing but gracious, even when she disagrees. She does not need to have to even deal with this clown. It should be a simple thing to eliminate this loser from the list. John I knew that very anointed and Ruach ha Kadosh (Holy Spirit) filled post would shake you, hypocrite John!!! You pathetic sinners just can't obey Galations 5, can ya??? I mean, my -- you sound like you are having outburts of anger . . . ROFL. Maybe if izzy the whor jezebel would stop violating I Timothy 2 she wouldn't get so much rebuke poured out on her. She want's to fight with the guys -- then let her take it!!! Triumphing by the Messiah YahShua on this Sabbath, Daniel John Lee _ TheFreeSite.com: Home of the Web's best freebies. http://www.thefreesite.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] izzy exposes her true colors!! lol
--- ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can kiss my kitty litter you little pud. Izzy Daniel responds: h . .. VERY GALATIANS 5 OF YOU, IZZY What happened to your joy and self control You see, you pagan Christians ARE SUCH A JOKE!! You talk about being loving and filled with joy and yet you don't even have enough of the Ruach to resist my supposedly hateful post Because, Izzy, you DO NOT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. You and john are nothing but hypocrites. When you turned your ear from Torah and the law -- you turned your ear from Jesus the Messiah -- and now you are filled with only devilish lusts. YahVah rebuke you, whore! In YahShua and shining as a Davidic warrior of YahShua, Daniel John Lee _ TheFreeSite.com: Home of the Web's best freebies. http://www.thefreesite.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Salvation for all
In a message dated 4/30/2004 9:33:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: David Miller wrote: His argument is that the Gentiles who did not have the LAW (were not hearers of the law) but were DOERS of the law, would surely be justified before God. Read the passage again now: John S. wrote: That is not what the passage says. When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature the things of the law is the picture given in Romans 2. To be more specific -- Paul includes those who have never heard the law. I think that is what I just said. The Gentiles, who had never heard the law, were doers of the law, having the law written upon their hearts. What Gentiles have the law written upon their hearts and are doers of the law? Those who have encountered Christ and are born again. What is not in line with scripture is that last sentence. Your logic is circular at this point, assuming the very point that is to be proven. The only reason you state "What Gentiles have the law written upon their hearts and are doers of the law? Those who have encountered Christ and are born again" is because this is what you believe. Obviously, the "unsaved" (in terms of second birth) can practice the basics of the law because that is what the passage says. That they are "born again" is what DavidM says. I will go with the written message in this case. David Miller wrote: What Gentiles DO the law as a result of the law being written upon their hearts? BORN AGAIN GENTILES. John wrote: You make this conclusion, not scripture. Scripture clearly tells us which Gentiles do by nature the things of the law -- it those in this example who have not heard the law and its requirements. Right. What Gentiles would these be? Is there any way to be righteous, to love God and your neighbor as yourself, outside of Jesus Christ? Are you saying that this passage is speaking of full blown righteousness even though it does not use that wording? It certainly is not what I am saying. These would be Gentiles who had not the law, but who believed the gospel of Jesus Christ and received the law written upon their hearts. Romans 2:14 says that the Gentiles "do by nature the things contained in the law." What Gentile does BY NATURE the things contained in the law? Human nature is contrary to the law. Read Romans 7. Only the new nature created in Christ Jesus is the nature which causes us to do by nature the things contained in the law. Are you saying that unregenerated man is completely devoid of any instinct for doing good? John S. wrote: If these were born again Christians there would be no question as to their salvation -- but salvation is not a sure thing in this passage .. compare Romans 2:15 and the stated option in regard to judgment day. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) (Romans 2:15 KJV) What stated option? I don't follow you. "while accusing or else excusing ..." looks like an option to me. John S. wrote: When the Jewish patron left the altar of sacrifice, he was not protected from sin. David Miller wrote: Can you elaborate upon this? What do you mean? Didn't Job have a hedge of protection about him that Satan complained about? John wrote: What God accomplished for a particular individual does not a theology make. Are you in disagreement with my statement? No. Well, we are not in agreement then. John S. wrote: Do you believe that the offering of bulls and goats afforded linear protection for the OT patron? I don't know what "linear protection" means. I don't know what you mean by "protect from sin." Do you mean deliver from temptation? Past posts tell me you do know the meaning of linear -- action with no end in sight. "Protected from sin = forgiven. David wrote: The repetitive nature of sacrifices had to do with the fact that the conscience was never dealt with in these sacrifices. No matter what kind of forgiveness might take place, the worshippers never really felt forgiven, so they kept doing it over and over again. John wrote: Whether or not this is a biblical observation is beside the point. When you write "No matter what kind of forgiveness might take place " are you admitting that forgiveness did take place and was specific in scope rather than on-going --- because that is my point. I agree with you that forgiveness took place, but I don't understand what you mean by specific in scope versus on-going forgiveness. Forgiveness under the Mosaic covenant was on-going in the sense that people continued to sin and continued to be forgiven. Ot -- for every sin there was to be a sin offering. NT -- the sin offering is has been made once and for all time -- we are constantly covered by the forgiving flow of the blood of the Lamb. David wrote: What do you mean by linear? John wrote: I find it interesting that we
Re: [TruthTalk] Longsuffering is a fruit of the Spirit
I consider this an inappropriate response to the problem at hand. Christ was not "longsuffering" at the temple. The kind of filth put out by Daniel to Izzy is never to be tolerated by other Christians. Why even have rules, David, if you have no intention of applying them? You have a cancer growing in this group. If nothing is done, if there is no responsible leadership and pastoring here, it will destroy this group JUST AS IT HAS OTHER GROUPS. Take it to the bank. If you want a group that is vibrant and strong, take out the trash. Maybe if izzy the whor jezebel would stop violating I Timothy 2 she wouldn't get so much rebuke poured out on her. You and john are nothing but hypocrites. When you turned your ear from Torah and the law -- you turned your ear from Jesus the Messiah -- and now you are filled with only devilish lusts. YahVah rebuke you, whore! in typical idiot female fashion, you did not even respond to my post Tell me, sinner john, do you also "try" not to commit adultery? Do you "try" not to beat your wife? Do you "try" to not masturbate? Do you "try" to obey Jesus John the more than tolerant In a message dated 4/30/2004 9:36:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John S. wrote: It should be a simple thing to eliminate this loser from the list. Take strength from the Word of God, John. :-) Gal 5:22, But the fruit of the Spirit is ... longsuffering But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things. (2 Corinthians 6:4-10 KJV) That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness. (Colossians 1:10-11 KJV) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another ... (Colossians 3:12-16 KJV) Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
RE: [TruthTalk] Longsuffering is a fruit of the Spirit
John, Dont let the turkeys get you down. Daniel is a flyspeck and doesnt bother me in the teeniest. Folks who dont deserve any respect are totally impotent; they just dont know it. (Although I must admit I dont mind causing him to gnash his teeth a bit, while spitting venom.) And every curse a person sends upon someone unjustly simply falls back upon their own head. (Poor Daniel is going to suffer a horrible fate, Im afraid, when all those curses he sends out come home to roost.) Id hate to have you upset on my behalf, dear friend. My sweetie and I just finished watching a movie and are enjoying the evening. You should, too. Really. Yawnstretchpurr. J Sweet dreams, Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 11:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Longsuffering is a fruit of the Spirit I consider this an inappropriate response to the problem at hand. Christ was not longsuffering at the temple. The kind of filth put out by Daniel to Izzy is never to be tolerated by other Christians. Why even have rules, David, if you have no intention of applying them? You have a cancer growing in this group. If nothing is done, if there is no responsible leadership and pastoring here, it will destroy this group JUST AS IT HAS OTHER GROUPS. Take it to the bank. If you want a group that is vibrant and strong, take out the trash. Maybe if izzy the whor jezebel would stop violating I Timothy 2 she wouldn't get so much rebuke poured out on her. You and john are nothing but hypocrites. When you turned your ear from Torah and the law -- you turned your ear from Jesus the Messiah -- and now you are filled with only devilish lusts. YahVah rebuke you, whore! in typical idiot female fashion, you did not even respond to my post Tell me, sinner john, do you also try not to commit adultery? Do you try not to beat your wife? Do you try to not masturbate? Do you try to obey Jesus John the more than tolerant In a message dated 4/30/2004 9:36:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John S. wrote: It should be a simple thing to eliminate this loser from the list. Take strength from the Word of God, John. :-) Gal 5:22, But the fruit of the Spirit is ... longsuffering But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things. (2 Corinthians 6:4-10 KJV) That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness. (Colossians 1:10-11 KJV) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another ... (Colossians 3:12-16 KJV) Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
