Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
Call me fastidious, but I like all my file types to be the same in one folder. That is, the styles folder should have only stylesheets, images should have only images. When it comes to Flash I tend to put these in a folder called media for some reason R :o) --Original Message -- One technique I use is to put all background images in the same folder as the css. I only use 'images' folders for actual content images. Ideally there won't be any other sort. Geoff. == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
Sorry Vlad - Ithink I'm with Lachlan on this one... Docs can be edited or re-written but if they're obsolete, you don't need to delete them - just don't link to them... If there's a conflict in nomenclature, like having a file called logo.gif for a company logo and you've a logo for one of their products also called logo.gif then you've got a problem with your naming conventions. Can you please suggest a reason why there would be an absolute need to delete a file? BTW: I'm not saying that under no circustances should precious bytes be wiped off the grid! But unless there's a strongly powerful reason, I would think that there's no need to delete files... R ;o) PS: Let's point out that the article Lachlan's referring to was written by the guy who invented the web so it's not exactly an unreliable source. - Original Message - From: Vlad Alexander (XStandard) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 12:38 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice Lachlan Hunt wrote: Never delete them! Since Cool URIs don't change, no document should ever be deleted Lachlan, I'd hate to think that you are giving advice based on an article you've read or from the practice of operating a personal blog. So I am going to assume that you are basing your advice on years of experience in managing large Web sites with hundreds of staff content contributors. So, before we all remove the Delete button in our content management systems, can you please let us know on which projects you have successfully applied the principle of no document should ever be deleted? Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
Hi Mark :o) To address some of the points you raised which were all fair points... In regards to having a document that wasn't linked to, you might want to have a documenton your site that was for internal archiving only. For example, last year's special products or christmas deals which could be available to those in the company with access. Alternatively, it may be for there for storage purposes only, where the link to the page is sent via an email, like sometimes do with clients to show them refernce material, etc... That brings to me to content that is 'obsolete' but not useless, like the examples above. Dynamic web sites with regularly updated information - again this seems like a nomenclature issue: For example Latest Mars News for NASA, might be better served with havng an index page with a linked archive of static URLs, or permalinks for latest articles (like /mars/news/060320.html). Of all the people who love reems of data, it's hard to imagine NASA happy to just delete files when they can archive them. However, you make some good points and I'm leaning more towards the 'delete it only if you absolutely have to' scenario... R :o) - Original Message - From: Mark Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice Richard Czeiger wrote: Sorry Vlad - Ithink I'm with Lachlan on this one... Docs can be edited or re-written but if they're obsolete, you don't need to delete them - just don't link to them... Actually, Lachlan said no URI should be deleted which everybody has taken to mean no document left behind or some such. If a document becomes obsolete, remove it and redirect the URI to a page that notifies the user of the fact and offers a newer version. How many times have you used Google and got a 404 because someone had removed the document you were coming for? And why would you have a document on your site that *wasn't* linked to? Can you please suggest a reason why there would be an absolute need to delete a file? Can you in turn suggest a reason why you would retain a document on a site that was unlinked? BTW: I'm not saying that under no circustances should precious bytes be wiped off the grid! But unless there's a strongly powerful reason, I would think that there's no need to delete files... ::thinks:: Dynamic website giving regularly updated information on ongoing activities? Ohh, look, NASA... PS: Let's point out that the article Lachlan's referring to was written by the guy who invented the web so it's not exactly an unreliable source. Well, I'm sure Nobel didn't envisage car bombs, either, when he invented nitroglycerin. Things change once they're unleashed on the world. (although I agree with the venerable Sir Tim on this, and Lachlan of course) But URI != document, necessarily, and an superseded document may be more dangerous than not finding anything. Cheers mark ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
Hi Vlad, In the case of the products - why not simply have a page saying Product X is no longer available. Remember I'm not talking about document santity where you're not aloud to touch it, but rather the idea that you don't need to delete files - which also avoids 404 errors... Branding - if the companby have a new logo - why not use the names of the old image files and put the new logo on them? Also if the image file is more decorative, colour scheme backgrounds etc... I'd probably get rid of that. No harm, no foul. It's more content files that I'm thinking of as being more persistent. Incorrect/out of date information - well to a degree I think a lot of these files can be given new life. The Organisation Chart is old? Why not replace it with an updated chart? Business Reasons - sure, I'd say this partiocular example would be worth deletion. I also agree that the friction caused by people can be huge obstacle, but isn't that what good information architecture and technical process for? I just think that if you plann your site well and spend time accounting for future possibilities, then there are few (not no) reasons for deleting files. Just a thought... R :o) - Original Message - From: Vlad Alexander (XStandard) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice Hi Richard, Can you please suggest a reason why there would be an absolute need to delete a file? That's a good question. Here are some reasons to absolutely delete files: - Legal issues / licensing. Your site may be licensed to use content for a period of time and then content needs to be removed. A real life example would be an online store that sell 3rd party products. It may use Product X images only as long as it sells Product X. - Branding issues. When a company changes it's logo, slogan, colour scheme, etc., Sales and Marketing will want to remove any images with old branding. That's the whole point of branding. - Incorrect/out-of-date information. Informative images can have old pricing info, old phone numbers, old organizational charts, old product numbers, etc. To reduce confusion, misleading information and errors, old images need to be removed. - Business reasons. You formed a partnership with Company X and it did not work out. You probably want to remove any images with both your logos together. I don't think you would want to archive that screw-up! :-) So the next logical question is, if none of my current Web pages link to old images, then what's the harm in keeping them around if I have extra disk space? Well, your Web pages are not the only entry point to your Web site's images. For example, go to google.com and click on Images. Richard, the article Lachlan referred to talks about an ideal world based on frictionless models. Whenever people get involved, you get frictions (in more sense than one). Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
I think this article pretty much cover it and seems to be the 'best practice' method. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/urls/ This accommodates eliminating the extension - which would please our Grandaddy Tim Berners-Lee http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI as well as avoids dumping individual files in their own folders - which is an inefficient way to do it. R :o) - Original Message - From: Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Website Directory Structure - Best Practice Lea de Groot wrote: * the page-name.some-technology, in implimentation. I tend to end all my pages in html no matter what I am using server side because a) it says 'webpage' and Then it adds 5 unnecessary characters to the end of the URI that serve no real purpose. I don't like including the file extension on any URI at all and if it wasn't for the annoying IE caching bugs I've experienced when leaving extensions of images, CSS and JS (i.e. IE apparently won't cache the files at all), I wouldn't include those either. It's also annoying when changing implementation. Like when I switched from blogger to WordPress. Blogger used static .html files and gave no way to configure links to be written without file extensions, even though I had MultiViews turned on. WordPress stores everything in the DB and has no file extensions in URIs. I ended up having to use mod_rewrite to accept .html on the end of any article URI so that no existing links/bookmarks wouldn't break. It would have been much less hassle if blogger had let me turn off file extensions in the first place. b) the technology for turning extensions off is flakey and What's flaky about it? Apache MultiViews is the easiest way to not require file extensions for static files, with the added advantage of making content negotiation extremely easy to do. I find putting a single page per directory inefficient in workflow - it has to work on both the developers and the users side! Yes, I agree with that. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantic Form - Person's Title
Ummm, mickey - just spotted the fact that you have multiple identical IDs How does this work? Certainly won't validate.. R :o) - Original Message - From: Micky Mourelo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantic Form - Person's Title Hi Richard, I looked at your example. You need not use a fieldset for every input. All you have to do is put the input inside the label, set the label to block and a margin-left to the input; and save the fieldset for a real field set. As for the title (Mr, Ms. etc) the thing to do would be: fieldset class=radiooptionslegendTitle/legend label for=fieldinput type=radio id=field name= /abbr title=MisterMr./abbr/labellabel for=fieldinput type=radio id=field name= /abbr title=MissMs./abbr/label /fieldset In this case you would set the labels to inline. But in reality I would recommend either forgetting about the legend (p?), almost impossible to style, or to position:absolute it; not that problematic. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantic Form - Person's Title
Sorry Mickey - didn't mean to knit-pick, but what you're saying is that it should look something like this? fieldset class=radio legendTitle/legend label for=titleMrinput type=radio id=titleMr name=title value=Mr /abbr title=MisterMr/abbr/label label for=titleMrsinput type=radio id=titleMrs name=title value=Mrs /abbr title=MissusMrs/abbr/label label for=titleMissinput type=radio id=titleMiss name=title value=Miss /abbr title=MissMs/abbr/label /fieldset Can I get a consensus that this is actually the right way to do it? It feels right, but I'd like the opinion of my venerable peers :o) Now just have to figure out a way to style the legend properly. Cheers, Richard - Original Message - From: Micky Mourelo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 4:38 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantic Form - Person's Title To Richard Czeiger: That's one of the problems of copy paste :o) anyway, I thought it was obvious that my code was just an example, maybe should have preceeded it with pseudo-code, but just in case: never leave name= in blank and never use a field id for a field :op. This discussion is getting old. Legends are optional from XHTML 1.0 on and the for attribute is an aid for ie users, so use it since it is not wrong (maybe just redundant, but not wrong in any way) to use it at all. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Absolute Positioning-A Naive Question (Maybe)
Here's a potentially naive response ... does it matter? As long as the (x)html is semantically marked up, does the rationale behind your css code make a difference (taking into account the fact that it should look the same on all browsers)? The ONLY function of css is the control of the visual treatment of content. The use of hacks are an annoyance, but they're only implemented due to the failure of browsers to comply with the standards. The various layout options are again designed purely to aid you in getting your site to look the way you want it to. Our way around such problems and the method we use to layout pages visually is the only thing that counts - if your css is messy or ugly or uses float as opposed to absolute position, who cares? The html is clean and semantic and the site looks the way you want it to. Isn't that what counts? Just a thought... R ;o) - Original Message - From: Paula Petrik [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 1:35 PM Subject: [WSG] Absolute Positioning-A Naive Question (Maybe) When I read the W3C specs (not the most riveting exercise on the planet), it seems that the developers emphasize absolute positioning. For example, they describe using floats to float small bits of text or images. It seems, however, that floats have become the order of the day. Rather than small bits, whole parts of designs are floated about. Was this the W3C's intent? Or, have floats become the modern equivalent of tables? Is there some reason why absolute positioning has fallen by the wayside? CSS-Discuss's wiki describes absolute positioning as capable of simple designs; yet, a significant proportion of csszengarden designs are absolutely positioned, and I wouldn't term them simple. Just wondering what the current wisdom is on this issue. Best, Paula Paula Petrik Professor Department of History Art History Associate Director Center for History New Media George Mason University http://www.archiva.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Usability issue with form help
This may sound silly but what about the tabindex attribute? AFAIK it's still part of the standard and should do what you're after... R :o) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Hey John, I think you're right on both counts... Yes, in order for this to be effective the more professionals who contribute, the better it will be. And yes, absolutely, it's not about stating this is the ONLY way you can do this but presenting a set of choices. I look forward to seeing the next stage ;o) R - Original Message - From: John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 11:59 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz Richard, I don't know, Sam... I mean, we're not forcing someone to use these patterns. But let's face it, they're patterns because lots of people use them. exactly. These patterns exist already. Its not about saying you should do these things in this way rather over time, when solving this kind of problem, the following conventions have emerged For example: previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 next look familiar? Google and almost every multi-page set of results uses this. I'd call it a convention. We're using the word 'pattern'. very nice example - there are actually two patterns here - a navigation strategy (how to allow users to conceive of and move around a set of information) and apage architecture pattern, how to present that strategy to the users. There might even be an interaction pattern lurking in there too if you look closely enough. What's the best way to mark this up? Well, I'd hazard a quess that this was an ordered list. But then there's those two at the beginning and end How are they best semantically marked up? And what CSS is best used to effectively display them? at this point, we get into suggested solutions. There is often going to be more than one common solution, (note again this is about capturing current practice, rather than dictating the one true way). The pattern captures these solutions, and discusses the pros and cons of using them. The developer still needs to make a choice in the context of their project, and then implement the pattern. What I'm saying is that instead of: a. trying to figure it out for yourself (which at the VERY best is time consuming), or b. Cut'n'pasting someone else's dodgey table-based code ... you could go to this site and, knowing that this is the Best Practice method, use that bit of code. I'd just pluralize Best Practices, and I think you've got agreat example here Hang on! Oh yeah, the standards community has already started doing something like this with hCard via MicroFormats, right? Thing is, I think the idea could be applied to more patterns. Yes, microformats are certainly patterns - what I term (for now) data patterns, by and large. WebPatterns are more general than µf, in part because the µf crew have specifically decided to focus on one aspect of patterns, at least for now. You never know, it might end continually re-occurring debates on mailing lists (like those I mentioned in my first post). or at least move them to a wiki :-) Thanks for the great ideas j John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Hey John :o) Martijn van Welie's been hacking away at something like this for a bit - check it out :o) http://www.welie.com/patterns/index.html R - Original Message - From: John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 2:34 PM Subject: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz Hi all, Some of you might have read my recent article, WebPatterns and WebSemantics http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/webpatterns_and.html In a nutshell, a pattern is a a problem which occurs over and over again … and … the core of the solution to that problem. When we build sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just very little work has been done trying to capture and document them. That's what I've started http://webpatterns.org to do. The first big step here is the PatternQuiz http://webpatterns.org/wordpress/?p=4 the aim of which is to explore existing patterns in web development. I've started with site level patterns. I'm really interested in the thoughts of all developers about the patterns which we use, so if you have a moment please come along, and contribute your thoughts and experience john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Actually, it would be great if we could have something like this which would form a 'toolkit' of sorts where we can take 'developer-authorised' code snippets and put them in our pages. Such as finally having a collection of code so we don't have to ask: What's the most semantic and valid way of marking up addresses? and such. This would save a lot of time, especially for CSS learners / new-to-standards folk. Semantically marked up Photo Gallery? Go to the Photo Gallery section and choose from sevral layouts, all given the thumbs up by CSS Samurais and such out there. Best way to do breadcrumbs (once and for all)? Sure check out the Navigation section. etc... What do you think? R - Original Message - From: John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 2:34 PM Subject: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz Hi all, Some of you might have read my recent article, WebPatterns and WebSemantics http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/webpatterns_and.html In a nutshell, a pattern is a a problem which occurs over and over again … and … the core of the solution to that problem. When we build sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just very little work has been done trying to capture and document them. That's what I've started http://webpatterns.org to do. The first big step here is the PatternQuiz http://webpatterns.org/wordpress/?p=4 the aim of which is to explore existing patterns in web development. I've started with site level patterns. I'm really interested in the thoughts of all developers about the patterns which we use, so if you have a moment please come along, and contribute your thoughts and experience john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
I don't know, Sam... I mean, we're not forcing someone to use these patterns. But let's face it, they're patterns because lots of people use them. For example: previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 next look familiar? Google and almost every multi-page set of results uses this. I'd call it a convention. We're using the word 'pattern'. What's the best way to mark this up? Well, I'd hazard a quess that this was an ordered list. But then there's those two at the beginning and end How are they best semantically marked up? And what CSS is best used to effectively display them? What I'm saying is that instead of: a. trying to figure it out for yourself (which at the VERY best is time consuming), or b. Cut'n'pasting someone else's dodgey table-based code ... you could go to this site and, knowing that this is the Best Practice method, use that bit of code. Hang on! Oh yeah, the standards community has already started doing something like this with hCard via MicroFormats, right? Thing is, I think the idea could be applied to more patterns. You never know, it might end continually re-occurring debates on mailing lists (like those I mentioned in my first post). - Original Message - From: Samuel Richardson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz I think you'll find their are too many variables in a website to do this easily. Plus you'll never convince designers to stick to those set layouts :D ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Justify this
In answer to your actual original question...
Wouldn't it just involve setting the paragraphs container to
padding: 0 3em; text-align: center;
and then in the paragraph have something like
text-align: justify;
where 3em is the space on either side of the para to make it look centred.
style
div { padding: 0 3em; text-align: center; }
p { text-align: justify; }
/style
div
pThis is just some text. This is just some text. This is just some text.
This is just some text. This is just some text. This is just some text. This
is just some text. This is just some text. This is just some text. This is
just some text. This is just some text. This is just some text. This is just
some text. This is just some text. This is just some text. This is just some
text. This is just some text. This is just some text. This is just some
text. This is just some text. This is just some text. /p
/div
R :o)
- Original Message -
From: Herrod, Lisa [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Joshua Street ' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:16 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this
We're talking about paragraphs of text here.
It's harder to read, presents 'rivers of white' running through the text
as
lines stretch and contract to fit the line. it's unnatural. it's probably
unaustralian somewhere too :)
some links:
Rivers of white:
http://www.usability.com.au/resources/cognitive.cfm
More (where roger is referenced)
http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/publicwebsite/public_t
extjustify.hcsp
lisa
-Original Message-
From: Joshua Street
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: 15/12/05 15:07
Subject: Re: [WSG] Justify this
Really? Why not?
I wouldn't have said that of justified text, but maybe my response is
an aesthetic one rather than a conscious approach to readability. Is
it something to do with not being able to find the line you were on at
the end/beginning as easily?
(And if we're going to go down this path, what of non-fixed-width
sites, justified or not?)
Not attacking, just... curious. Because I think justified text LOOKS
nicer (n.b. not neccessarily more readable... just more enjoyable to
read.)
Josh
On 12/15/05, Herrod, Lisa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Justified text really isn't a good idea in terms of
usability/readability.
Maybe there was a conscious effort not to support it :)
-Original Message-
From: Paul Noone
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: 15/12/05 14:49
Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this
Hi Lachlan,
Thanks for that but I was actually wanting to center align justified
text
for a particular purpose. Evidently my experiment is invalid.
Thanks anyway.
--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 2:35 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Justify this
Paul Noone wrote:
Hopefully a quick question, I hoope, as the W3C specs are no help on
this one.
No, they are usually always helpful but you need to know what you're
looking
for.
I want to centre align text and justify it at the same time. I've
applied the following mark-up which, surprisingly, does the trick.
But
can justify be applied as an optional extra parameter, or does this
just work through browser quirks?
text-align: center justify;
If that does anything at all, it's a browser bug. That property
should
be
ignored by a conforming browser. Centred and justified text are
mutually
exclusive options and it makes little sense to combine them like that.
However, I'm going to assume you're looking for a way to centre the
box,
but
have the text justified within. In which case, this should do the
trick:
p { width: 50%; margin: 0 auto; text-align: justify; }
Just use an appropriate selector and width for your needs.
--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
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--
Joshua Street
http://www.joahua.com/
+61 (0) 425 808 469
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Re: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
Patrick's got a good point ... but isn't this conversation just about at its end? We seem to have two camps: those for and those against. How much more do we need to talk about this stuff??? R - Original Message - From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards Lea de Groot wrote: http://www.energyrating.gov.au/con3.html Ugly stickers; Very effective program. From http://www.energyrating.gov.au/background.html Manufacturers who produce / import appliances for the Australian market are required to submit their products to an approved testing agency. So, it is effective because: - it's *enforced* (by law, I'll assume) by the government - there are *approved* testing agencies Once those two things are in place on the net, we can discuss stickers and badges... -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1
There's also the idea that legal documents are often split into sections which continue numbering but are infact separate documents (addendums, etc...) . At the moment, legal docs can't be semantically marked-up (at least in OZ) because: 1. any electonic version of a legal document MUST replicate the numbering and ordering EXACTLY. 2. current HTML/XHTML list mark-up/styling is not flexible enough to accomplish this. The 'start' attribute and the 'value' attribute in lis would be amazingly helpful for this. Of course, the obvious solution is to teach bl**dy lawyers how to meaningfully put together a document but they can't even write in plain English let alone manage something as complex as nested lists! ;oP On a more serious note, if someone can put together a MicroFormat that solves this problem, they'll go down in the Web Geek Hall of Fame or something. (if you do manage it though, please let me know!) R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css instead of JS(ajax)
This seems to be a great way to illustrate one of the key points of the whole standards compliant, semantic web concept. Basically, XHTML - Content (what it says) CSS - Form (what it looks like) JavaScript/DOM - Behaviour (what happens when I do this ...) The Fisheye example looks like a perfect fit for JavaScript. Again, why would you try do this in anything but JavaScript? The page works when JS is turned off, so that's a good thing The ONLY thing I'd recommend is plugging in some DOM to access the an ID that you give to the DIVs instead of those proprietary attributes. R :o) - Original Message - From: Marko Mihelcic - founder of mcville.net (http.//www.mcville.net)|(http://board.mcville.net) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 6:40 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] css instead of JS(ajax) My point exactly why not use JS ? 2005/11/8, Wayne Douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED]: That has about as much to do with AJAX as my mother does. Whats wrong with using the fisheye widget? Dojo code is standards compliant, effiecient JS. Why would you try to do something like that in _pure_ CSS? If your going to do that you might as well try to do it in plain text aswell. HTH w On 11/8/05, Jad Madi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, any idea if it's possible to create menu like this one pure css without JS ? http://dojotoolkit.org/~alex/dojo/trunk/demos/widget/Fisheye.html if yes, please shot a kickstart -- Regards Jad madi Blog http://EasyHTTP.com/jad/ Web standards Planet http://W3planet.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites
Actually James, I think this is more a Usability concern rather than an Accessibility concern. Whatyou might say instead is: "I can't view the site on my browser and even if I could, the text is samll and I can't change it!" Or "Why does this site tell me I need to have _javascript_ turned on? How do I even do that?" R :o) - Original Message - From: James Ellis To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 10:18 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites HiEveryone cares about accessibility, both consciously and/or subsconsciously."I hate this website, I can't find anything on it. I'm going somewhere else" - that's someone caring about accessibility.CheersJames On 10/31/05, Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a thought, I wanted to point something out.No one cares aboutstandards or accessibility but us.Its our job to care.
Re: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites
I think another part of this is also the fact that web development is moving towards being a more respected industry and escaping the 'techno-mysticism' that surrounded it in the late 90s when we were all meant to be snowboarding designers or propellorheads. Having standards (and using them!) is a way to make Web Development more of a serious industry in the same way that having an industry body (like AIMIA) adds to our credibility. On top of of all that, Jan's absolutely right - we ARE professionals and we DO care about providing our clients with the best quality work we can - otherwise we'd all create web sites in MS word and export them as HTML. Our clients demand that we give them the best product and if they don't then it's only becuase they don't know the difference. Thing is, they shop around and if one developer mentions standards-compliant design in their proposal and another one doesn't then any vaguely intelligent client is going to ask the other do YOU write standards-compliant code? Hopefully, it will not be something to look out for in the future, but rather a base practice - like having a license to drive a taxi. In the meantime, I think it's still a bit of a selling point, if nothing else. R :o) - Original Message - From: Jan Brasna [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 11:01 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites I don't think it must be neccessarily a common issue. Many agencies I know here mostly don't even mention standards or the particular technologies, they're just selling greatly usable, effective and profitable web solutions to the clients and since they are professionals and they care the output is standards-based as an obvious thing. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites
Also - the Nokia browser on my phone doesn't support JavaScript. And even if it did, where the heck would I change the settings? Device independence is a big part of Accessibility, IMHO. R :o) - Original Message - From: Donna Maurer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 12:37 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites Organisations can turn javascript off when installing/configuring then lock the browser. I've worked in places where this has happened... Donna On 30 Oct 2005 at 19:20, T. R. Valentine wrote: AFAIK, all browsers have JavaScript turned on by default. If a user has turned it off, the user certainly ought to know how to undo his previous action. (If a user has had a friend do it, the user ought to be able to get the answers from the friend.) -- Donna Maurer Maadmob Interaction Design e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] work: http://maadmob.com.au/ blog: http://maadmob.net/donna/blog/ AOL IM: maadmob ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites
I think it's important to NOT expect users to know how to do this or even be vaguely technically literate. Doctors, for example, shouldn't have to be IT experts. They fix people not machines. It's simply not their job or responsibility to be forced to learn the HUGE amount of stuff that as developers we've crammed into our head. This doesn't mean they should be penaliseed and not allowed to see web sites or interact as freely on the web as the rest of us. Isn't that part of the point of accessibility? R - Original Message - From: Lea de Groot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites Not necessarily - corporately, some IT departments will turn off Javascript pre-emptively for non-trusted sites. This does not mean that the user will be aware, or understand, this. :( warmly, Lea ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites
Good point, Andy. However, I think there actually *is* a benchmark we can use as a guide to work from in terms of the user's technical ability. I'd start by looking at 'default behaviour'. The ability to operate a machine/software using ONLY its default settings. For the web, this would be a level above What is a Link and below 'How do I increase/decrease text size. Assuming users know what's on the context menu is above the scope of this (that's why so many sites put instructions like right-click and select 'save target as' in their pages). Assuming the User knows how to clear their cache or set their Home Page is also above this level, as this requires the user to go into the 'options' available for the software. The second they start to get 'under the hood' of the software is when they start to become more advanced. You're example of screen readers' users setting the Title attribute is not so much a fault in page design or standards but rather (at best) a mis-calculation by the software developers on the importance of one of their features or (at worst) a dramatic over-site in terms of standards support by the software developers. Hope I'm making sense, here and I know it's a slippery slope, but hey ... That's why they pay us the big bucks, right? .. Right? Anyone? R :oP - Original Message - From: Andy Kirkwood | Motive [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites Hi Richard, To play the devil's advocate... Certainly humanist developers aim to remove the barriers that technology might place between users and content. However, difficulty arises when determining what constitutes 'technical' literacy. This could range from 'What's a link' through to 'How do I increase/decrease text size'. Even many of the 'hooks' put into content markup to make it more accessible are not used by a screen reader unless the user customises the behaviour of the software (reading title attributes for one). The issue of determining prior (technical) knowledge is one of those bug-bears like browser statistics. Even though we'd like to, it's problematic to generalise. On the other hand, adding an introduction to every webpage on how to use the web is equally untenable. Incidentally, does anyone know of a formal public-school curriculum that covers using the web? Such a document/documents might provide an insight as to how we (as in society-at-large) currently qualify 'technical literacy'. I think it's important to NOT expect users to know how to do this or even be vaguely technically literate. Doctors, for example, shouldn't have to be IT experts. They fix people not machines. It's simply not their job or responsibility to be forced to learn the HUGE amount of stuff that as developers we've crammed into our head. This doesn't mean they should be penaliseed and not allowed to see web sites or interact as freely on the web as the rest of us. -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
This sounds like it's going to turn into another let's all figure out how to use the address tag thing so let me pre-empt that. I think the bigger question is can someone proivde an example of when best to use the br / tag in general? What type of content semantically requires a line break. The one thing that jumps immediately to my mind is poetry where the line break has serious semantic value. Another might be for code snippets where the author wants to indicate that the actaull code continues on one line but is broken up in his example for deomnstration / readability. This is usually presented by a symbol at the end of the first line ( or some such) Any other examples? R - Original Message - From: Hope Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 8:47 AM Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website and for the most part can totally avoid using br. But in the example below I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br: pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr / The Secretarybr / Your Clubbr / PO Box 999br / Anytown VIC 3000/p How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next? If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would this be semantically correct? Is there a better way? Hope Stewart ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
OK so someone pointed out that pre would be better for poetry and I agree but with some reservations. pre does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from a screen reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through pre as opposed to br /. Do they pause or say new line? I think, when all is said and done though that pre does seem better for poetry. Anyway, no else has come forward with any examples of when to use br / apart from in an address. This is a pretty smart group - if we can't find a decent use for it outside this then maybe we shoud get this formallised. In the same way that fieldset elements shouldn't be placed outside a form element, let's tell the W3C to specify that line breaks should not be placed outside of the address tag. At least this will end the debate once and for all about Line Breaks. PS: in terms of the address element itself - check out what's happening over here! http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html#div154379976 R :o) - Original Message - From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br Hope Stewart wrote: I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said address was used only for information about the author Which holds true if the address is used to mark up: - the contact information for the current site (e.g. if it's a corporate site and you're giving the company's contact details) - if it's something like a directory listing where each member gets their own little page, the contact details for that particular member So, the thread starter should give some info on what he's trying to mark up, exactly. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
However, there is an argument that has the logo in the CSS particularly for branding purposes. Hear me out... You put the logo in the CSS. Nice and big and branded etc... Then you make a special logo for, oh I don't know, mobile devices. Small, crisp, pixel perfect. Now your users can see both and mobile users don't get frustrated waiting eons for your massive logo to show up on their mobile browser (not that it fits inside the window anyway). Doing it this way IS good branding. It's also about controlling HOW you want your logo to appear in certain context. Anyone that's written a Corporate Style Guide will know what I'm talking about... You've also got to ask the question, that if people have CSS switched off, it's probably because they don't want to see any non-relevant information (visual or textual) possibly becuase of bandwidth restrictions etc... If you've semantically coded your header with something like: div id="masthead" h1Company Name/h1 /div Then they'll still see thename of your company - which still lets them know who they're dealing with and that that company cares about how they prefer to view the web. That's also good braning (maybe more on the brand personality side of things rather than the brand visual side). R :o) - Original Message - From: adam reitsma To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 11:25 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo My thoughts entirely.I would definitely want the company logo as an IMG element.If your company's site was to be viewed without the use of CSS, would you still want the logo the appear? I would.--adam-- On 10/10/05, Peter Ottery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do others think?1 vote here for always making the logo a regular img and part of thehtml markup. reasoning for me is a pretty simple one. its content! :)cheers,pete~~~ Peter Ottery ~ Creative DirectorDaemon Pty Ltd17 Roslyn GardensElizabeth Bay NSW 2011www.daemon.com.au**The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
Re: *****SPAM***** Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
I prefer the following IR:
div id=masthead
h1a href=index.html title=The Company Name Web SiteCompany
Name/a/h1
/div
in the stylesheet:
#masthead h1 {
margin: 0px; padding: 0px;
}
a {
width: Xpx; height: Ypx; overflow: hidden;
margin: 0px; padding: 0px; padding-top: Xpx; background: transparent
url(images/logo.gif) no-repeat top left;
}
That way you don't get clear.gif going in your otherwise semantically nice
mark up :o)
R
- Original Message -
From: Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:30 PM
Subject: *SPAM* Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Richard Czeiger wrote:
Doing it this way IS good branding.
It's also about controlling HOW you want your logo to appear in
certain context. Anyone that's written a Corporate Style Guide will
know what I'm talking about...
Good point.
This Image Replacement method [1] allows this type of control (image
source
and size) and makes the logo clickable.
h1a title=Company home page href=/img src=clear.gif alt=
//aCompany Name/h1
[1] http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/tip.asp
/plug
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com
**
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
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**
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Re: *****SPAM***** Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Umm actually you do.. Check out www.courtappearances.com.au to see what I'm talking about. Here's the CSS for that: http://www.courtappearances.com.au/styles/style.css R :o) - Original Message - From: Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:58 PM Subject: *SPAM* Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo Richard Czeiger wrote: That way you don't get clear.gif going in your otherwise semantically nice mark up :o) ... but that way you don't get a clickable logo ;) Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
I dont' know how it works in the big leagues over at the W3C but I imagine that there's a fair amount of discussion internally about every single little bit they put into their specs. Also, I have a stong feeling that our little mailing list here actually is a significant player into what the W3C does in the future. Certainly we've had their key players chat to us online and in person whenever they're in town. What we say here must at least make their ears prick up a little I think the frustration is that we often keep going over the same ground without consensus or a formalised way of doing something with the arguements we do end up agreeing on. Actually offering something up to the W3C on these issues (line breaks, address, etc...) and say you guys do a great job, but we think the follow section could be clarified and expanded up. If you agree please update the spec and put out a note letting everyone know. Cheers, WSG What do you think? R :o) - Original Message - From: Buddy Quaid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br Peter Firminger wrote: This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant. We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the way most (en) people write out addresses. I second that. I tried to make a point like this a few threads ago and got reamed for it. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Hey Christian.
Actually I find when reading an
address (or telling it to someone else) I do pause after certain
elements:
street,
suburb,
state and postcode (these seem to
go togetherfor my internal voice - NSW 2011 - almost like a license
plate)
Saying the whole address wihout
pausing wouldn't make sense
R
- Original Message -
From: Christian Montoya
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
On 10/9/05, Richard
Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
OK
so someone pointed out that pre would be better for poetry
That was me.
pre
does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from ascreen
reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through
preas opposed to br /. Do they pause or say "new line"? I
think, when all is said and done though that pre does seem better
for poetry.
Actually, I think I learned in poetry class that most poems are meant
to be read continuously. In some poems line breaks matter, but it would be up to
the screen readers to ensure that the structure of a poem was not lost to the
listener. If you tried to style a poem by e.e. cummings, you would have a
boatload of nbsp; and br /. Not pretty at all.Glad we
agree. Back to the topic at hand, why would you pause when reading an address
aloud? If you tell me your address, do I really care where the line breaks are?
Read this aloud: 909 anystreetithaca, new yorkDid you stop
at the line break? Did it matter? My point is that we don't need to make the
line break obvious to the screen reader. If we want it there for the browser
that lacks css we would want the br /. Sometimes line breaks are
necessary visually, with or without css. Otherwise, the span{display:block;}
method would work too. I would prefer the br /. For another
example of where I use br /, I sometimes use it in forms, where I want
line breaks with or without css. PS: in terms of the
address element itself - check out what's happening over here!
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html#div154379976
The "resource" term looks like a great way to
make an address semantic.-- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
Re: [WSG] Meta Keywords?
I'd have to agree with Andreas here. Wile for Ranking purposes they're not terribly important, at least Description is still sometimes used by Search Engines. Plus there's the added notion that Meta Tags *in and of themselves* are a good thing to put in a page (as any librarian will tell you). Plus there's no way of knowing what future technoligies can put these to good use. In saying that, of course, you'd actually have to think about making those meta tags *really* relevent and page-specific - otherwise, it's just guff. :o) R - Original Message - From: Martin Jopson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 2:57 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Meta Keywords? So, from John Derek's responses, am I correct in thinking there's no use for the Meta Keywords or Meta Description tags anymore? Any web resources/ reference for this information? I'd like a bit more knowledge before questioning Hitwise. Thanks Martin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Click here--reference
Nice attempt Russ, but I'm with Andreas here. If the the link takes you to a location whose purpose is to execute a function (apart from reading/viewing) then why not state that. I've exempted reading and viewing as they're pretty much what you *have* to do on the web for every page - so that's kind of stating the obvious. However,for pages where you're asked to register for a conference, for example, there's no way you'd put: Register for the Forbes Conference. That seems confusing and not very user-friendly :o) So would you instead put: Register for the Forbes Conference. I'm not a huge fan of sites that link every word to something else. R :o) - Original Message - From: "Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:03 AM Subject: RE: [WSG] Click here--reference -Original Message- From: russ - maxdesign [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 20 September 2005 10:44 AM To: Web Standards Group Subject: Re: [WSG] Click here--reference - A website talking about "Amaya" - Download "Amaya" - The "Amaya" Forum - My aunty "Amaya" So, without verbs, it could still be more descriptive with slight tweaks and without using verbs - Download the "Amaya Software" - The "Amaya Forum" - My "Aunty Amaya" Yeah, it's better than what the original site had, but I am still not convinced. Why not express what the link does? If the link starts a "download of software", why not say so? I can understand that people are against linking entire phrases such as "Click here to view information about my Aunty Amaya", but a simple "Download Amaya" doesn't harm anybody, but makes it, in my opinion, more userfriendly.If you think about the phrase: Download the "Amaya Software" To me the link "Amaya Software" could still be taking you to a page that explains about "Amaya Software". However, "Download Amaya Software" is a straight forward, unambiguous link. And this is independent to screenreaders. Let's say I come to a website hoping to download the software. The keyword I am searching for is clearly "download", in particular if the entire site is plastered with the term "Amaya". Users scan the page and the things that stand out most are links. So let's give them the keywords they are looking for - and in many cases these keywords may be verbs. On a different matter, I do like your suggestion on the "Accessible more links". :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Click here--reference
Hey Damian, Very valid point! It's not too difficult to turn a verb into an adjective. Somehow, though, reading your example I get the feeling that it's a very passive voice to read in. It almost *feels* like: Here's the Registration Form (which by the way you can also fill in). What else would you do with an online form? You could print it, but again 'print' (and 'register') seem to be different verbs to 'complete' and 'fill in'. They sound like context-specific Tasks rather than simply actions. In which case, I'd probably want to use the verb as the link text - it seems more forceful (at least from a marketing perspective) and there's absolutely no confusion as to what you are being asked to do: Register! Don't just look at the registration form and decide whether or not to. In response to Christian's claim - sorry but no one said we were abandoning the title attribute at all! This is a question of usability, rather than accessibility. R :o) - Original Message - From: Damian Sweeney [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Click here--reference I haven't made up my mind about verbs in links yet, but a counter example to yours Richard: However, for pages where you're asked to register for a conference, for example, there's no way you'd put: Register for the http://www.forbesconferences.com/?page=registerForbes Conference. How about: Fill in the a href=http://www.forbesconferences.com/?page=register;Forbes Conference Registration Form/a. Damian -- -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] teaching students developing to web standards
Wasn't this question asked not long ago? Shouldn't people at least try to check the archives first? R - Original Message - From: Rick Faaberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 5:27 PM Subject: [WSG] teaching students developing to web standards Hi all, I need to convince a bunch of K-12 teachers to teach web standards instead of tables-for-layout and FrontPage and Publisher type of thing to their students. Besides W3C, what sites should I point to for teachers who really have no idea with any of this, and won't read umpteen sites to figure all this out? Any lesson plans out there, by chance? :-) Thanks Rick Faaberg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] braindead - iframes???
Umm, sorry Bert, Kenny's right. Totally unpredictable behavious of the object tag in IE6. Sometimes won't load, sometimes throws up a script error, and any JavaScript that I have can't talk to it. :o( Any other suggestions? R - Original Message - From: Bert Doorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] braindead - iframes??? G'day Kenny Graham wrote: Objects of type text/html (or application/xhtml+xml) are what I use. But good luck getting them to work in IE. In my experience, IE will only do it if it's a local (x)html file. Works fine for me in Firefox and Opera 8. Works in IE6 Windows as well, if served as text/html. Don't know about IE5.x If you're serving application/xhtml+xml it's not going to work in IE because IE doesn't like application/xhtml+xml. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] CSS Mobile Buttons
Does anyone remember on this list an example someone put together of an XHTML/CSS page feature a picture of a mobile phone where you could 'click' on the buttons (which were positioned via CSS)? Tried looking in the archive, but can't find it. Cheers :o) Richard ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] td != div
I think it's also important to bare in mind that there might be very good reasons for putting a ul inside a div. The most obvious one I can think of is the need for two background images. I think once the next standard incorporates this and browsers support it, there will be even less need for unwarranted code. Another thing to remember is that, in the same way table layouts were used as CSS wasn't supported at the time, so too are multiple divs being used to compensate for a lack of support in browsers. Just thing of the dreaded Vertical Align hacks that have been thrown around across the web. One quote I keep remembering was Tm Berners Lee saying something like, HTML was never designed to be a tool for graphically displaying data. Browsers are still catching up with CSS Support and CSS itself is still being developed to allow us humble designers the ability to realise our vision in code. Give it time, the standards will soon allow us to eliminate unnecessary code - it might take a bit to get there though. PS: How did you manage to avoid table layouts Lucky boy! R :o) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] braindead - iframes???
Maybe a lack of coffee but in XHTML 1.0 Strict, what is there that replaces iframes? I vaguely remember once being able to add the SRC attribute to a div but that's not up to spec. What's out there thatdisplays the contents of a URIand validates? Cheers :o) Richard
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
Ah - ok ... now i get it .. sorry ... firday ... going home now :o) r - Original Message - From: Peter Williams I think confused. I took this to mean that: - you create a standards compliant site - a visitor with an older browser visits and sees mush - a page explains why the page looks like mush and that the problem is with the older browser and explains ways to improve matters for the visitor. This seems to be an extension of the WASP's .ahem campaign to create awareness of the desirability of upgrading old, non standards compliant browsers. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Text Size Statistics
Hi all :o) Have a client whose text size in IE is set to Largest (like my Dad). Just wondering if anyone knows of a resource out there that maps out the percentage of users that: a) know about View Text Size, and b) actually change it and if so, to what? Any help would be good and, I think, useful to us folks. Cheers :o) Richard
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
Thanks Donna - Nice to hear from a usability professional. I guess this raises the question: If we're all going hell-for-leather making fluid siteswith relative fonts for increased usability / accessibility and no one knows about it or how to use it, then: a) Is it worth the effort? Emotionally, I'd say 'yes'. I want to do the right thing, but if testing, debugging and getting it to work properly is an extra 2 - 3 hours of development time then is it worth it economically (for my client)? b) How do we tell people about it? What's the best way to spread the word? In my sites' Accessibility Statement, I have the following text: This site uses only relative font sizes, compatible with the user-specified "text size" option in visual browsers. This option can be adjusted by the user, allowing them to change the text size of their browser. But is it enough? How many people read my beautifully written Accessibility Statement anyway? Should I be putting up a separate page "How to change your text size" and link to it in the footer of every page? If so, my footers are getting a little crowded... 1. Copyright 2. Disclaimer 3. Privacy 4. Accessibility 5. Site Map Now.. 6. Change Text Size Seems a bit like overkill, no? - Original Message - From: "Donna Maurer" ... The general consensus is that most of the general user population (ie those who do not create sites) do not know about the feature.
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
Hi Terrence, I agree that its not our domain, but I don't think that makes us completely free of responsibility. Additionally, if no one knows about it - why bother. Shouldn't I just go back to to pixel-perfect font control. Yourphrase 'removing barriers to content' got me thinking... The situations seems like a Bad Boy Bubby scenario. If the user is stuck in a small room and never told there is an outside world, are they actually missing anything? You can only miss something if you know it's there in the first place, right? Imagine all these people with visual impairment who have been suffering through tiny web fonts, never realising that all they had to do was press two buttons on their browser. But they're not really 'suffering' as such because that's the only reality they know. My basic point is if we don't educate them (or point to where the barriers are that they couldn't see), then what's the point? Just my two cents... R :o) - Original Message - From: "Terrence Wood" [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not sure if it's the designer/developers domain to educate people on how to use their browsers, we should focus more on removing barriers to content.
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
Hey Donna :o) Geeky, huh? Very well. The Accessibility Statement is fairly generic (an example is here www.aidgc.com.au/accessibility.html ) and is based on an amanlgamation of various guru's and government's access pages. So the geek factor is probably high, but for politeness I'll refer to this a 'dry' instead of geek. :oP In terms of letting people know, again, I'm disagreeing with Terrance, because I've come across the same strong negative reaction from the few people who *do* know how to use it. I guess maybe with everyone out there we can come up with a great way to do this. Cheers, R :o) - Original Message - From: "Donna Maurer" Yes, it is still worth it because those people who do know really, really appreciate it. They *hate* it when a site doesn't allow them to resize the font. Those who I've spoken with have a much stronger attachment to sites that work for them, which should be important to all clients. I've not figured out how to let people know about it apart from showing anyone who comments that the text size on a site is too small. I also haven't figured out how to tell people about this feature on a site - 'accessibility' is probably not a great label. That said, can I rewrite your accessibilty statement for you (it's a bit passive and geeky)?: "Does the text look too small to you? This site contains 'relative fonts' which can easily be made larger or smaller as you need. If you are using Internet Explorer, you can do this by selecting 'ViewText sizeLargest'. "
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
I like the idea of a 'friendly' accessibility page. ve got these 'footer pages' that I basically copy across sites instead of thinkingn up new content all the time. My only concern in rewriting this is that some of my clients prefer very formal language for their sites. Maybe its a case of requiring that I have two versions of both sets, one conversationsal and one formal. Now... anyone want to write up both sets and present them to the WSG members as a template? :o) Seriously, though, I remember a thred on this lista while ago about Accessibility Statement pages and the text that should belong there - everyone seemed to have their own ideas, so who knows... R :o) - Original Message - From: Terrence Wood How about renaming 'accessibility statement' to 'tips for using this site' or something similar and talk about font sizing in there? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
Here that, Donna? You've been nominated! I await your masterwork :oP R - Original Message - From: "Terrence Wood" I'd take up Donna's offer to rewrite it for you =)
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
I thinkeveryone's put forward
excellent arguments, thus far.
It's important to remember that a
lot of the time the 'why are we doing this' questions get asked because we're
after a reasonable justification for both ourselves and our clients. I don't
think it's enough to do something purely becuase it feels right and it's warm
and fuzzy. There are real-world concerns in our craft and we need to address the
business issues (cost vs value) as much as the usability issues (ensuring the
best conventions and treatment of our users) as much as the accessibility issues
('why do I have to have X to make this work?') as well as the moral issues
('standards are nice').
Fleshing out the reason why we do
something is just as important as the how, especially for a 'relatively' new
industry like ours.
In terms of the link to a single
page - I love this idea. Like a Creative Commons for standards-compliant web
sites :o)
So what other pages chould go
here...
1. Accessibility
Statement
2. Chage Text Size
3. Make Home Page
4. Standards Explaination (with
links to validators etc...)
Anything else?
R :o)
- Original Message -
From: "Ben Wrighton -
StraightForward"
How about if we all designated a
single page to link to which clearly explains how to change the text size in
different browsers?
Re: *****SPAM***** RE: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
Ummm, if you were a developer would you put a link on your non-standards compliant site pointing to a page that tells the user why your site is bad R (either confused or not catching sarcasm on a Friday afternoon) - Original Message - From: Scott Swabey - Lafinboy Productions [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 2:48 PM Subject: *SPAM* RE: [WSG] Text Size Statistics So what other pages should go here... How about a 'Why doesn't the site work in my browser' page, somewhere to advocate the use of modern, standards compliant browsers. Maybe then users would have a good reason to move away from non-compliant browsers, and designers/developers would be rid of the need to worry about 90% of the hacks we currently use. Regards Scott Swabey Lafinboy Productions www.lafinboy.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?
I don't know, Lea... Perhaps there should be two lists - one for discussing standards/accessibility/best practice and one for how do I fix my float/site check please. Personally, the latter tends to just fill up my Inbox, whereas I find the former really interesting and challenging Some gurus out there might be amenable to 'mentoring' newbies on the second list ... If one list were the standards/accessibility/best practice, perhaps at the end of a discussion the person how opened the topic puts together a summary, creating a Best Practice Guidelines for the topic discussed. This would be an awesome resource for beginners and advanced programmers alike. Anyway, I can understand Mike's position - sometimes it can be frustrating when you have so many people, all at different levels and with different requirements. The list membership has grown significantly (thanks to the fine efforts of the moderators and members themselves). Perhaps it's time to evolve the list? Just a thought :o) Richard - Original Message - From: Lea de Groot [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] help or web standards group? On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:30:24 +0100, Mike Whitehurst wrote: is this mailing list for anything other than helping novice designers with their hacks? This is definitely a mailing list for discussing all aspects of web standards. Any technical list is going to have a large proportion of 'newbie' questions - its just the nature of the beast. If you have a more advanced topic to discuss, please do raise it! I'm sure you will find the 'senior' members coming out of the woodwork to discuss it if it intrigues them :) warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] are underscores a problem
Does that mean the best way to go fro ID, Class Names, Variables, etc... is interCaps (also known as CamelCase or lowerCamelCase) ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CamelCase R - Original Message - From: Ben Curtis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] are underscores a problem That said, I was asked if we could modify some id and class names to go from nav1sub1 to nav1_sub1 . I told them my preference would be nav1- sub1. But then I thought I should check to see if there would be any problems using an underscore in an id or class. Is it one of the legal characters? This topic came up a month ago. Read the archived thread for more info. Underscores were illegal in CSS 2.0, but legalized in 2.1 since every browser except Netscape 4 violated that rule. Since 2.1 is a refinement of 2.0, 2.1 completely replaces 2.0 -- that is, there is no such thing as conforming to CSS 2.0, like you could conform to both HTML 4 and XHTML 1. Hyphens are not forbidden, but are frowned on since they caused minor problems with some versions of Javascript interacting with IDs. I don't remember the specifics. If you need to support Netscape Navigator 4.x, do not put underscores in your IDs or class names. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] AJAX and accesibility
http://www.standards-schmandards.com/index.php?2005/03/01/16-ajax-and-accessibility http://adactio.com/journal/display.php/20050308163812.xml - Original Message - From: Maarten Stolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:55 PM Subject: [WSG] AJAX and accesibility Hello, I'm trying to find out if there are any resources on AJAX and accesibility. It seems to me that if I would employ AJAX technologies on my site to enable a richer application experience, I would still need to code for non-JavaScript useragents . I also think that with screenreaders, lots of AJAX tricks would be hard to parse, even if such a reader would have JavaScript. Do these things hold true, and are there other things that I need to take into account? regards, Maarten Stolte ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] looking for an accessibility reference on why text-only is bad
Cheat! Use a styleswitcher to to display your 'text-only' courier-based stylesheet :o) Richard - Original Message - From: Kay Smoljak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 11:55 AM Subject: [WSG] looking for an accessibility reference on why text-only is bad We're doing a tender for a client that has requested a text-only version of the site, for accessibility reasons. Now, *I* know that that's ridiculous and text-only is not an acceptable alternative to an accessible site, but I need some good verbage/references to explain that (and what we propose instead) but I'm kinda lost for the right words. Does anyone know of a good online article/resource to help me out? Something specific to Australian legislation would be fantastic. Thanks! -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] looking for an accessibility reference on why text-only is bad
Good article, Kay! I'd try sending them there, but in the end it's a matter of balancing some of the following things: 1. spending time educating the client 2. maintaining an acceesible approach to design 3. Runing a business If after trying to educate the client (a 10 minute phone conversation you're NOT going to get paid for), and they still want a text only page just because we think it's best, then cave in... But cave in your way - make a 'text-only' looking stylesheet and charge them for the work! You maintain standards and accessibility as well as get paid! Alternatively make a text-only copy of the whoel site and charge them double as it's twice the work than the original scope. ... I'm just at the point of screaming when it comes to corporate clients who 'know best' about things and insist on doing it their way. Fine - i'll explain the pros and cons and give my professional, experienced and informed opinion. If they throw it in the bin and ask me to do anything extra, then they can pay for it. I'll bet good money that if you tell them it's going to be an extra $2500 for a text-only version, or $250 to whip up a styleswitcher and CSS file then they'll go for the cheap option every single time. In this case, it happens to co-incide with an accessible approach. Just my *somewhat frazzled at End of Financial Year* two cents.. :o) R - Original Message - From: Kay Smoljak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] looking for an accessibility reference on why text-only is bad On 6/30/05, Richard Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Use a styleswitcher to to display your 'text-only' courier-based stylesheet We *could* do that... but I'd rather educate the client :) To answer my own question, soon after posting (isn't that always the way) I found this very good article on Webcredible: http://www.webcredible.co.uk/user-friendly-resources/web-accessibility/text-only.shtml -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] 'strong' as class name
Hi tee,
I still think the strong tag is the way to go for you.
In your example you have inline text that you want to make bold and a diff
colour and font.
This *shounds* like you want to strongly emphasis that text. Why not use the
strong element to do it?
You can still apply your styles:
pstrongStrong/strong is bold/p
style
strong {
font: 1em bold Arial, san-serif;
text-transform: uppercase;
text-decoration: none;
color: #369;
}
/style
I'd make the argument that if you still don't want to use the strong tag
then at least think of a different name for your class as i think it might
get confusing later on.
Cheers :o)
Richard
- Original Message -
From: tee [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] 'strong' as class name
Thank you Andy, for the link and reminder.
Note that the second font family is 'sans-serif' (with an 's' and
hyphen).
Should be:
pspan class=strongStrong/span is bold/p
They are correct in my files. I should have paid more attention in typing
when posting question to the list so to prevent confusion.
FURTHER READING
http://www.devarticles.com/c/a/Web-Style-Sheets/CSS-shorthand-at-a-glance/2/
Cheers,
tee
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[WSG] CSS List Separator
Hi all, Wondering how we can get CSS to specifity the spearator used in ordered lists (ie: the thing between the list item number and the value of the list item). For example... 1. a) 1 - a: I need this ability to replicate government legislation and apparently it has to be an EXACT duplicate. As far as I can tell, this isn't in the spec. Has anyone found a solution? Some fancy CSS hack or DOM scripting that will get around this? Cheers :o) Richard
Re: [WSG] CSS List Separator
Thanks, Patrick. John reminded me of the counters. I'd forgotten about them because of their total lack of support... C'est la guerre :o) Richard - Original Message - From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS List Separator Richard Czeiger wrote: Wondering how we can get CSS to specifity the spearator used in ordered lists As far as I can tell, you should be able to define that with the styles provided for automatic numbering and lists in CSS 2.1 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/generate.html#counters (specifically, content and counter() ) However, this is not a viable solution if you need it to be supported in most browsers (can't remember exactly, but I think only Opera at this stage supports this part of the spec). -- Patrick H. Lauke _ redux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] the use of reset buttons on forms
In terms of accessibility and usability... what's the difference between RESET and refreshing the page? R - Original Message - From: Andreas Boehmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 10:48 AM Subject: [WSG] the use of reset buttons on forms Hi guys, just wanted to hear what other people's thoughts on this topic are. I have been adding submit reset buttons to most of my forms all along. But I am getting the feeling that the reset button is not only a waste of time, but in fact fairly user-unfriendly. Seriously: how many people enter data into a form and go so completely wrong that they want to erase everything they have just done and start over new? On the other hand, how many people *accidentally* press the reset button when they actually wanted to hit the submit button? I know it happened to me more than once. You're in a rush, you click without thinkings... all your work is lost! Here we could go into the discussion if the reset button should be on the left or on the right, but personally I am getting the feeling that the reset button is a mostly useless feature that pops up on almost every form. Now a Cancel or Back button, that's something different! Any comments? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Sydney and Melbourne WSG meetings tonight
Would love to, Peter, but this month I have an engagement I can't get out of. See you next month... Richard :o) - Original Message - From: Peter Firminger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 11:46 AM Subject: [WSG] Sydney and Melbourne WSG meetings tonight I only have 8 RSVPs for Sydney so far? Please let us know (if you haven't already) if you are coming on [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] asap (like NOW!) http://webstandardsgroup.org/meetings/ for details. Regards, Peter Firminger *** http://webboy.net/ info@webboy.net +612 49983388 +614 12932269 *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Privacy Statements Standards
Maybe we can steer it towards web standards? Anyone interested in Privacy as a standard should check out the W3C's Platform for Privacy Preferences http://www.w3.org/P3P/ This is a W3C Recommendation and has been around for a bit now... Richard :o) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc)
Perhaps the point here should be: If you have a Flash Site and an HTML Site, then why not make the HTML Site accessible? It takes exactly the same amount of effort and it's not as though your design is extrameley difficult to be realised in standards compliant XHTML/CSS. Why not take a couple of days to redo the HTML Site so that it's useful? Just a thought... Richard ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] New site: something for vegans
Hi all ;o) Requesting a site check as well as design comments/suggestions... www.vfme.com Off-list responses encouraged, but if it's an issue you think everyone would benefit from please post on-list. BTW: if anyone wants to contribute a recipe, that would be great too! Many thanks, Richard ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New site: something for vegans
That's really bizzare, ben. Thanks for pointing it out - I'll look into it... :o) Richard - Original Message - From: Ben Hamilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] New site: something for vegans Using FF1.0.3, WinXPsp2, 1280x1024. On the FAQ page, last question, the link, when i mouseover this, it only becomes a link in a very small area (i.e. not over it but just above it). All the other links I tried work correctly. Do vegans make better lovers? They think so. (www.newveg.av.org). Ben. On 4/21/05, Richard Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all ;o) Requesting a site check as well as design comments/suggestions... www.vfme.com Off-list responses encouraged, but if it's an issue you think everyone would benefit from please post on-list. BTW: if anyone wants to contribute a recipe, that would be great too! Many thanks, Richard ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Ben Hamilton - Director, Wallis Hamilton Industries Pty Ltd Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://wallishamilton.com/about/ Telephone 0410 460 333 (Australia) +61 410 460 333 (Internationally) Building web sites that work http://wallishamilton.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] markup readability (was: newspaper format)
This is a great issue and one where I think the WSG can take the lead and put forward a standard. To Patrick's comment 'header' is a tricky one and your points about its print origins are very valid. Perhaps we can take that and still use the print reference by calling it 'masthead' as this actually does refer to all the elements you spoke of and doesn't have the same presentational weight as 'header'. Perhaps there can be a list of appropriate 'values' for IDs or classes. Most of us already use: container wrapper header/masthead nav content footer Maybe we can formalise this list so that it becomes a 'see-if-any-of-these-are-relevant-first' list of values that people can use. If what they need is not on the list then they can make up their own... If anyone wants to add to this list maybe we can pass it around and when it gets comprehensive enough, put it up on the WSG site as a resource. Just a thought... Richard ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
Are users really *that* impatient? Does the physically disabled site user not even bother to see if the content on the page is worth-while? As a developer who believes in validation, would you not bother looking at a page if you you didn't see a little xhtml link at the bottom? Should we bother to build site for people who don't bother to use them? Just a thought... And a reminder that we're after best practice within the contrainsts provided by the project and the technology, not a rigid, total and utter compliancy to every living mammal on the planet. R - Original Message - From: Ben Wrighton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 9:03 AM Subject: RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility One small thing that bothers me with the tab to make skip nav visible approach. What if a physically disabled site visitor loads the page, doesn't see the [skip nav], thinks bugger this and leaves before tabbing? Especially if the site's home page does not contain an accessibility statement. I'd like to know what a web savvy physically disabled person thinks about this technique (which other that this small concern I really like). ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.11 - Release Date: 14/04/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
I accept the point, Russ. However, on a practical level, the concern that Ben expressed regarding accessibility compared to the importance of the content on the page is a decision the users need to make all the time and one that doesn't usually cost a lot: Interesting content... I guess I'll push through the site even though it obviously isn't built for me. vs I'm not even doing to bother looking at this site even though it might have the answers I'm looking for. For any web user (disabled or not) the second attitude isn't going to get them very far. I'm hoping that if I build a site that features good accessibility options then I will get people more people **preferring** to use my site over others that may have similar content. I've been following the Skip Link discussion because I find it to be a very contentious issue. No one has seemed to come up with a 100% successful answer that pleases everybody. My point is this: even **having** the Skip to Content feature on the site in any form is a far sight better than not having one. If it only works for blind users and not physically disabled users, it's still better than sites that don't have one at all. I dare say that there are more sites out there that don't have then than those that do. Do visually or physically disabled people 'not bother' to look at ALL those pages? At the end of the day, we're still *trying* to get it right. It sometimes feels as though we're being beaten over the head for not having everything function perfectly for everybody - and I don't think we ever will (too many different types of people, too diverse a range of technology). It seems as though we should be giving a 'clap on the back' for those developers that spend hours of their time *testing* all these ideas out with the aim of making peoples lives better... PS: Sorry about the soapbox - it's the end of the week and I needed to vent... R :o) - Original Message - From: russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 9:54 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility Richard, these are all good questions. The best thing to do as actually observe real people (with disabilities) interacting with sites. I have watched blind users and users with severe vision impairment who become frustrated and leave sites very quickly. They are more likely to struggle on if the information is very important or only available at one particular site. When David Woodbridge's was demonstrating a poorly built site to the WSG last year he commented: I am doing this to demonstrate the problems. In real life I would never really go this far into a site this bad, I would have left on the fist page. Think of it in other terms. If there was a shop with major physical barriers (like being forced to climb a ladder just to get into the shop), and the shop keeper was never available, would you hang around long? Compare that to a shop nearby with easy access and friendly staff. Russ Are users really *that* impatient? Does the physically disabled site user not even bother to see if the content on the page is worth-while? As a developer who believes in validation, would you not bother looking at a page if you you didn't see a little xhtml link at the bottom? Should we bother to build site for people who don't bother to use them? Just a thought... And a reminder that we're after best practice within the contrainsts provided by the project and the technology, not a rigid, total and utter compliancy to every living mammal on the planet. R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Styling Forms
How about plain old form elements?
Example:
style type=text/css
form { font: 65%/1.2 verdana, sans-serif; margin-bottom: 3em; }
fieldset { margin-bottom: 0.3em; border: none; }
label { width: 160px; }
label.radio { width: auto; }
input, select, textarea { font-family: verdana; font-size: 1.0em;
_background: none !important; }
select { width: 152px; }
.hiddenFields { display: none; }
/style
form id=feedback action= method=post
fieldset
label for=firstNameFirst Name/label
input type=text id=firstName name=firstName value= size=27 /
/fieldset
fieldset
label for=lastNameLast Name/label
input type=text id=lastName name=lastName value= size=27 /
/fieldset
fieldset
label for=emailEmail Address/label
input type=text id=email name=email value= size=27 /
/fieldset
fieldset
label for=findUsHow Did You Find Us?/label
select id=findUs name=findUs
option value= selected=selectedPlease select .../option
option value=FriendA Friend Told You About Us/option
option value=PosterPoster/option
option value=FlyerFlyer/option
option value=GoogleGoogle/option
option value=Search EngineOther Search Engine/option
option value=TVTelevision Ad/option
option value=RadioRadio/option
option value=NewspaperNewspaper/option
option value=OtherOther/option
/select
/fieldset
fieldset
label for=commentsComments/label
textarea id=comments name=comments cols=27 rows=6 title=Please
enter your comments here/textarea
/fieldset
fieldset
input type=submit id=submit name=submit value=submit /
/fieldset
/form
Richard :o)
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 1:40 PM
Subject: [WSG] Styling Forms
Good evening all,
I know there's two schools of thought regarding forms where one uses a
table and the other a definition list to style and layout the data fields.
I have a simple form on a client's Contact Us page, and I wondered if
there's a consensus as to which method is more semantically correct?
Please advise...
Kind regards,
Mario S. Cisneros
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[WSG] Suckerfish Sliding Doors Image Replacement with Current Page .. Navigation
Let's combine a whole bunch of different CSS concepts and hope it works in everything. :o) Check out this link: http://www.grafx.com.au/wip/test/test.html Here's the CSS: http://www.grafx.com.au/wip/test/styles/style.css On the navigation: 1. The suckerfish drop down on "services" in the menu works. 2.Replaced all the text links with sliding doors background images. 3. Because we're on the Client page, this has it's roll-over state on. All this works PERFECTLY on PC FireFox, PC IE 5.0 and PC IE 6.0. Mac Safari? Thenav doesn't work at all Can't even click on the buttons. Can anyone PLEASE help me? I don't have OSX 10.2 so I can't test on Safari. Anything to get me out of this hole would be greately appreciated!. Cheers :o) Richard
[WSG] CSS in HTML Emails
Hi all, Just wondering if there is a compatibility chart out there for CSS properties in HTML emails. We've got charts for the browsers, but what about email clients? Additionally, what about CSS support in mobile phone browsers? What browsers are used in which mobile phones? If anyone has charts out there or tests they've done to see what 'safe' values can be used this would very much appreciated. Cheers :o) Richard ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A HREF around a Flash Object?
Use JavaScript to communicate to flash's command and arguments. Look up how to do this in Google. :o) Richard - Original Message - From: Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 10:14 AM Subject: [WSG] A HREF around a Flash Object? Hi Everyone, hope you are well. I am currently developing a website for a customer who requires certain animated tiles which link through to other pages - they have decided to use Flash for these. I know in Flash hyperlinking to other pages is handled in the flash file itself. However, I wondered if there is a standards compliant way that I can wrap an A HREF around the flash object, so that the hyperlinking is controlled by the web page, not the flash file? That way users without Flash can still link through to the target page. Any Ideas? Cheers, Matt ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Asterisks in W3C spec
In answer to your question, Sigurd - the asterisk indicates that that attribute is required for that elements (as opposed to optional). For example, if you use the img you MUST include a SRC and an ALT attribute for it to be valid. Cheers :o) Richard - Original Message - From: Sigurd Magnusson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 6:10 PM Subject: [WSG] Asterisks in W3C spec I keep seeing asterisks in the W3C spec but cannot see a glossary anywhere. As an example, with the img element in xhtml 1.1, the attributes 'src' and 'alt' are both marked with an asterisk. Why? http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_imagemodul e (I realise img is marked to be deprecated in xhtml2, but I feel adoption for that will require new browsers to come out and gain market share, as the object tag has a huge set of problems) Finally, is there a commentary somewhere about the use of longdesc vs alt vs title (e.g. on images, on images where they are the sole content of links, etc). There seems to be a bit of information here and there, and obviously I can use common sense, but was wondering if there was some high-calibre writing out there, spelling out the different browser support and an overall conclusion? Siggy ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
great comments thus far, but i think we're getting into the area where things are being said twice or getting into wy too fine a point. when exactly does this thread get closed? r - Original Message - From: Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] double space after period Because there's such a mix of opinions about the value of double-spacing between sentences and its history, I asked my friend John D. Berry, typographer book designer of note, to give me the low-down on double-spacing to post to this list. __ At 01:50 PM 2/10/2005, John D. Berry wrote: Paul -- Double-spacing after periods is a habit that began in the 19th century -- not a period noted for its fine typography! -- and has no justification whatsoever. I don't need to expound on the subject, however; it's already been done succinctly by Robert Bringhurst in The Elements of Typographic Style (2nd ed, pp 28-30): 2.1.4 Use a single word space between sentences. In the nineteenth century, which was a dark and inflationary age in typography and type design, many compositors were encouraged to stuff extra space between sentences. Generations of twentieth-century typists were then taught to do the same, by hitting the spacebar twice after every period. Your typing as well as your typesetting will benefit from unlearning this quaint Victorian habit. As a general rule, no more than a single space is required after a period, a colon or any other mark of punctuation. Larger spaces (e.g., en spaces) are themselves punctuation. Being a poet and a scholar, Bringhurst goes on to mention one exception (probably not one that your discussion of text on the web is going to run into very often): The rule is usually altered, however, when setting classical Latin and Greek, romanized Sanskrit, phonetics or other kinds of texts in which sentences begin with lowercase letters. In the absence of a capital, a full en space (M/2) between sentences will generally be welcome. How you accomplish this in justified text, since the en space is a fixed space, is a job for a careful typesetter. In a more general way, and for composition in metal type, Jan Tschichold set very high standards when he took over the re-design of Penguin Books in the late 1940s; he was sending jobs to virtually every typesetter and printer in Britain, and had to standardize the results that would come back. The very first section of his Penguin Composition Rules is titled Text Composition (1947) [with my notes in brackets]: All text composition should be as closely word-spaced as possible. As a rule, the spacing should be about a middle space or the thickness of an 'i' in the type size used. [This would be the width of the piece of type, including the built-in space around it, not just the visual width of the i itself.] Wide spaces should be strictly avoided. Words may be freely broken whenever necessary to avoid wide spacing, as breaking words is less harmful to the appearance of the page than too much space between words. [I usually add: try to avoid misleading word breaks, such as rein-state, which can lead the reader to misread the sentence the first time through.] All major punctuation marks - full point, colon, and semicolon - should be followed by the same spacing as is used throughout the rest of the line. It's worth noting that Tschichold also set a standard of adding a small space before colons, semicolons, question marks, and exclamation points -- not a full word space, but a slight additional space, so the punctuation doesn't get subsumed into the word shape. I try to do this when I typeset text, and I wish more digital fonts were designed with extra sidebars around (or at least before) those punctuation marks. Obviously this extra space isn't needed before periods or commas, but I often run into automatic kerning pairs that would tuck the period or comma way too far under the overhanging part of a final letter like r or y. Our mania for kerning sometimes creates more visual problems than it solves. In all of these areas, the precise spacing needed to get the most readable text depends on the typeface used, of course. The spacing of the letters affects the spacing of the words affects the spacing of the lines, and so on all the way out to the margins of the page - and back again. Typography is all about space. And now we'll see whether the fact that I've used italics and en dashes for clarity in this text - rather than the truncated plain text that I usually limit myself to in e-mail - breaks the system or not. I hope not. John :: :: :: John D. Berry book design typography: http://home.earthlink.net/~typographer/http://home.earthlink.net/~typograp her/ dot-font: http://www.creativepro.com/author/home/951.htmlhttp://www.creativepro.com/ author/home/951.html Contemporary Newspaper Design:
Re: [WSG] double space after period
Hi guys,
Here's a little script that might help this issue.
It takes the element with the id of content and adds an extra white space
at the end of a sentence to the existing one.
This way, the code is still clean and you can have your whitespace cake and
eat it too! :o)
function addSpace() {
var string = document.getElementById(content);
var swapWhat = /\u002E\s/g;
newString = string.innerHTML.replace(swapWhat, \u002E\u00A0\u00A0);
string.innerHTML = newString;
}
window.onload = addSpace;
Hope this helps,
Richard :o)
- Original Message -
Theoretically, the extra space could help users with cognitive impairment.
The problems would be 1) testing this theory and 2) if
it was found to be of benefit to specific groups of users, and you thought
it was important on a particular site, how to achieve it without polluting
to code/content.
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Re: [WSG] double space after period
too true paul forgot about those nasty little buggers :o) oh well R :o) - Original Message - From: Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] double space after period At 03:31 PM 2/9/2005, Richard Czeiger wrote: Here's a little script that might help this issue. It takes the element with the id of content and adds an extra white space at the end of a sentence to the existing one. This way, the code is still clean and you can have your whitespace cake and eat it too! :o) Richard, I see the problem as not so much where the periods are, but where the sentences begin in prose dotted with abbreviations, n'est ce pas? Your script commits the double misdemeanor of assuming that every period ends a sentence and forgetting about all that other punctuation that so often -- but not always! -- ends a sentence. Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web app guidance/site comment
nice work :o) you can get a badge! http://images.google.com/images?q=w3c+validationimgsz=iconhl=enlr=ie=UTF -8rls=GGLC,GGLC:1970-01,GGLC:enstart=20sa=N :o) R - Original Message - From: Brendan Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 7:21 PM Subject: [WSG] Web app guidance/site comment Greetings all, I'm currently working on a web app that I have created in as much of a web standards karma giving way as I can muster. If I could get some feed back on this little number from the crowd out there I would be most greatful. General tips and pointers are what I'm after. If you look closely enough it might be blatantly obvious who this project is for. Ok, if you're from Sydney Australia and drive a car/have a license that is. https://monitor.hpa.com.au/rta/ https://monitor.hpa.com.au/rta/ This is in no way a live product, and for the most part are just a bunch of static HTML files. Expect no magic within! Or live database for that matter. I have managed to keep the majority of pages valid in both HTML and CSS. (When I typed that I felt I should get a badge or something?) The only quirk I have with it is how some tables will wrap/drop below the menu on IE in tight areas (narrow your browser on the home page). Is this to be expected? Thanks in advance for your time... Brendan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links
Ah yes - now I remember :o)
Richard
- Original Message -
From: Neerav [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links
Richard
See how I display the pipes on the horizontal menu at www.bhatt.id.au
using css borders.
the list itself has a border-left, and all list items have a border-right
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development IT consultancy
Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
Richard Czeiger wrote:
Sure but this only works on, like, two browsers!
Is there a funckier CSS hack kind of way?
:o)
Richard
- Original Message -
*From:* Kevin Futter mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 05, 2004 12:02 PM
*Subject:* Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links
For the line wrapping issue, you could try:
whitespace: nowrap;
On whatever element is giving you trouble.
Cheers,
Kevin Futter
On 5/10/04 11:28 AM, Richard Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi guys,
I'm putting together a semantically correct UL of links for my
footer.
I'd like to have them separated by 'pipes' as this is a common
and easily recognised technique.
But the pipes themselves are irrelevant (semantically). So
here's what I've come up with...
ALSO! My one thing is that if the text inside the links is made
up of two or more words, then they get pushed to separate lines.
Is there a way to avoid this without specifying a width or
without putting a 'no broken spaces' between the words?
Can you suggest anything better?
style type=text/css
#footer {
text-align: center;
}
#footer ul li {
display: inline; width: 1px;
margin: auto 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: 1px solid
#00;
line-height: 120%;
}
#footer ul li:first-child { border-left: none; }
/* Not rendered by a few agents, so we'll use the
'footerBorderKill' javascript function switches off the first
child's left border */
/style
div id=footer
ul id =contentLinks
lia href=link1.html title=Link 1
accesskey=1link/a/li
lia href=link2.html title=Link 2 accesskey=2link
with multiple words/a/li
lia href=link3.html title=Link 3
accesskey=3link/a/li
lia href=link4.html title=Link 4
accesskey=4linknbsp;withnbsp;NoBrokenSpaces/a/li
lia href=link5.html title=Link 5
accesskey=5link/a/li
/ul
ul id=validationLinks
lia href=http://validator.w3.org/check/referer;
rel=external title=Check XHTMLxhtml/a/li
lia
href=http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/check/referer;
rel=external title=Check CSScss/a/li
lia
href=http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/;
rel=external title=View licensecc/a/li
/ul
/div
script type=text/javascript//![CDATA[
// Kills the Left Border on the Footer Navigation
function footerBorderKill() {
myBody=document.getElementById('footer');
myBodyElements=myBody.getElementsByTagName(ul); // Gets all
the UL elements that are children of 'footer'
for( var i = 0; i myBodyElements.length; i++ ) {
myList=myBodyElements.item(i); // Loops through all the ULs in
the footer
myListElements=myList.getElementsByTagName(li); // Gets all
the LI elements that are children of the ULs
myLI=myListElements.item(0); // Gets the first item of the
list of LI elements
myLI.style.borderLeft = 'none'; // And sets its border to
nothing
}
}
window.onload = footerBorderKill;
file://]]/script
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[WSG] Validate Accessibility
Hi all :o) Just a quick query: we all know that to havre a little link on the bottom of the page to validate XHTML and CSS we can use a funky URL with the term "referer" in the address. What about Accessibility validation for Bobby or Cynthia? The only way I know how to do this is to hardcode the URL of the site. If i wanted to check the validity of the specific page I would have to put that page's URL in the link. Is there anyway around this in the manner of XHTML and CSS without _javascript_? Cheers :o) Richard
Re: [WSG] Centering thumbnails
Had the same problem with my holiday snaps :o)
Check out http://www.grafx.com.au/dik/region.html?MuiNe-1-21 for an example
of how it's done.
Hope this helps :o)
R
- Original Message -
From: BonusOntwerp [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 8:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering thumbnails
The hardcoded height and width for the images is meant as an example.
Because the thumbnails are generated from a database (in a next level).
So the images have to fit inside a square of 36x36 pixels. The images
are always scaled to 36px width or 36px height.
But the problem is, I can't find a way to center (vertical and
horizontal) the images in a square of 36px x 36px. I tried with an
extra div (for every thumb) with height and width of 36px, with text
centered and use the images as an inline element.
page: http://www.bonusontwerp.nl/dijdel/etalage/bedrijfsreportage.html
Met vriendelijke groet,
Best regards,
Jorg Tiemens
Bonus ontwerp
Frankenslag 357
2582 hp Den Haag
Tel. +31 (0)70 33 8
Fax. +31 (0)70 30 62668
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.bonusontwerp.com
On 3-jan-05, at 23:05, Collin Davis wrote:
page:
http://www.bonusontwerp.nl/dijdel/etalage/bedrijfsreportage.html
Why not save yourself some code bloat, and use a rule such as:
div.thumbs img{width:36px; height:36px; border:0;}
and clear all of that out of your markup?
(such as img src=../gfx/algemeen/testThumb.jpg alt= height=36
width=36 border=0 /)
That would help solve the problem of typos when doing markup there
also ;)
Collin Davis - ACE, MCP
Web Architect
Stromberg Architectural Products
p 903.454.0904
f 903.454.3642
e [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web www.strombergarchitectural.com
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[WSG] Template StyleSheet
Hi all, Trying to find examples, resources that define how StyleSheets should be organised. There's been dicussion of how to arrange your classes and IDs and I'm just wondering, what about base generic styles that don't need to be referenced by class or ID... Does anyone out there start with a template they use for all their sites and modify it? The W3 Spec for CSS2 has one for HTML4 but I don't see any ryhme or reason in the wayit's laid it out. They're recommending that all developers use this stylesheet as a template. Can someone explain it to me? http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/sample.html To make things fun, I've uploaded my template stylesheet for anyone that's interested. www.drunkmonkey.com.au/sample.css I've organised the elements in accordance with the modules specked out for XHTML 1.1 DocType (http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/doctype.html) - there's a couple of modular elements missing but I never use those anyway. For the styles' properties themselves I'm guessing most people have their own special order. I tend to split them into three lines: Positional Styles (display, position, width, height, overflow, etc...) Box Styles (margin, border, padding, background, etc...) Text Styles (font, size, colour, etc...) Speaking of templates, here's an HTML Template I use when I builda site that a client is going to update through a WYSIWYG. I has most of the common HTML elements in it, so that when I apply my style sheetthe client knows what everything is supposed to look like - very handy. Here it is (with a coloured version of the stylesheet): www.drunkmonkey.com.au/sample.html If you think I should change/add anything, please let me know. Cheers :o) Richard
Re: [WSG] breadcrumbs - nice implementation
You can also do this with _javascript_:Here's
the script I use that outputs the following (check out the title
tag!):www.grafx.com.au :: v2 :: scripting :: breadCrumbs.html
// Breadcrumbs Scriptvar path = "";var
href = "">var s = href.split("/");for (var
i=3;i(s.length-1);i++) {path+="a
href="" title=\"Go up "+
(s.length-i-1) +" levels to "+s[i]+"\""+unescape(s[i])+"/a ::
";}i=s.length-1;path+="a
href="" title=\"You are
currently viewing this page\""+s[i]+"/a";var url =
"">document.writeln(url);
:o)
Richard- Original Message
- From: "Terrence Wood" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 7:36
AMSubject: [WSG] breadcrumbs - nice implementationFollowing the
recent discussion(s) here about breadcrumbs I thought I'd share this link to
an interesting breadcrumb implementation (and handy snippet of
php):http://www.de-generationx.net/blog/archives/2004/09/20/629/What
is interesting to me about this implementation is how through the choice of
wording the use of the breadcrumbs is explicitly navigation ("return to"),
whereas they usually appear to be informative ("you are
here").Terrence Wood.-- "You know you've
achieved perfection in design, not when you have nothing more to add, but
when you have nothing more to take away." -Antoine de
Saint-Exupery**The
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Re: [WSG] A land of wasted web opportunity
Ummm.. hate to gripe about this but... YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING! I don't know about many of you guys, but I'd love my company to be a member of the W3C. Considering my company has about 4 members of staff, I'm wondering where we can dig up the AUD $7765 for membership Still, it's a good thing we have an annual gross revenue, as measured by the most recent audited statement, of less than $US 50,000,000. http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Prospectus/ Who, exactly do they expect to become members? :o( Richard - Original Message - From: Amit Karmakar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 10:14 AM Subject: [WSG] A land of wasted web opportunity An interesting read on how Australia is a wasted country!!! http://smh.com.au/news/Next/A-land-of-wasted-web-opportunity/2004/12/13/1102 786984178.html?oneclick=true Well I tend to disagree but I think Ivan is mainly talking about big companies down here that are not part of the W3C. Surely that is an area that needs focus but: I often hear people in Australia say they are too small to do anything, they are happy to let the big guys in the US fight out the standards and they will just use them makes me wonder if he has heard of WSG, WE04, and many others out there... isnt it the other way around? Regards, Amit Karmakar http://karmakars.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Now you can Print Link URLs
OK, so maybe I'm a little too bored/geeky for my own
good...
The following code fixes something that's been bugging me for
a while.
Everyone but IE seems to be able to use the "content"
attribute in CSS.
This bit of _javascript_ basically fixes that. Read the comments
in the code and have a play with it.
:: CODE ::
/*// Print our HREFs on Links for Print
StyleSheet
There's a cool bit of CSS that shows a link's URL after
it:
a:after { content:" [" attr(href) "] " }
Great for Print StyleSheets, but unfortunately MSIE doesn't
implement this.So here's some code that replicates that functionality for
all browsers :o)On the plus side, it also lets you style the URL
anyway you want,instead of having it relegated to part of the link
itself.
*///
function showHREF() {if
(document.getElementsByTagName) {>whichLink =
onlyContentLinks.getElementsByTagName("a"); for (var i=0;
iwhichLink.length; i++) { useLink = whichLink[i];
showLink =
useLink.getAttribute("href")// This
is for FireFox to get the whole URL if it's a link to a page within your own
siteif (useLink.getAttribute("rel") != "external")
{// NOTE: this assume you are using rel="external" for
external links// You can swap this
with...// if (useLink.getAttribute("target") != "_blank")
{// Because MSIE will
show the full path we have to crop itcheckShow =
showLink.lastIndexOf("/");showLink =
showLink.substring(checkShow+1,showLink.length);//
Because FireFox doesn't, we have to add itlastSlash
= document.location.href.lastIndexOf("/");directory
=
document.location.href.substring(0,lastSlash);//
Our funky complete URL for internal pagesshowLink =
directory + '/' +
showLink;}newSpan
= document.createElement("span");showTitle =
document.createTextNode(' [' + showLink +
']');newSpan.appendChild(showTitle);useLink.parentNode.insertBefore(newSpan,useLink.nextSibling);
// Don't forget to put .printLink in
both
//your screen and print
stylesheets
newSpan.className='printLink';}}}
window.>
Richard :o)
Re: [WSG] markup for postal addresses?
Try address/address
style type=text/css
address { display: block; color: etc... }
/style
R :o)
- Original Message -
From: James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:10 PM
Subject: [WSG] markup for postal addresses?
Hi all
I'm trying to put together some markup for a postal address:
Cosmo Kramer
123 Example St
Somewhere
Country ZIP
I've thought of an unordered list ul and a definition list dl.
Does anyone have any ideas on the correct markup?
Cheers
James
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Re: [WSG] markup for postal addresses?
I think with things like this the KISS principle comes to mind... or if you prefer: Be Semantic - Not Pedantic :o) R - Original Message - From: James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:10 PM Subject: [WSG] markup for postal addresses? Hi all I'm trying to put together some markup for a postal address: Cosmo Kramer 123 Example St Somewhere Country ZIP I've thought of an unordered list ul and a definition list dl. Does anyone have any ideas on the correct markup? Cheers James ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List Item Separators
As a way to nicely tie up this little thread... :o)
Once you've put your border-left 1 pixel, use the DOM to find the UL
(perhaps through an ID) and remove the first LI's border.
IF JavaScript is turned off - you're no worse off...
function listBorderKill() {
if (document.getElementById('navigationID'))
myBody=document.getElementById('navigationID');
myListElements=myBody.getElementsByTagName(li);
myLI=myListElements.item(0);
myLI.style.borderLeft = 'none';
}
}
window.onload=listBorderKill;
Happy landings!
Richard :o)
- Original Message -
From: Paul Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 7:36 AM
Subject: RE: [WSG] List Item Separators
Thankyou John,
I should have known to go to ALA ! It really is a great site.
*grin*
That's what it's all about, Paul -- you're thinking along
different lines now (no pun intended). I've been doing the
same thing, and I love it! :)
I found the following on A List Apart that you may find
helpful. Search the page for pipe and you'll see something
that you can use.
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/taminglists/
~john
_
Dr. Zeus Web Development
http://www.DrZeus.net
content without clutter
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[WSG] Site Check Please
Hi all :o) Would appreciate any comments. PLEASE NOTE: Mac people - sorry not there yet, so don't even bother. I've served you up a crappy print style sheet :o( Here she is - http://www.grafx.com.au/wip/withPassion/ Thanks in advance :o) Richard
Re: [WSG] Site Check Please
Thanks Ted and John :o) The disconnecting text is not something I can change as this design element was specified by the client. I've fixed the topNav -10px wierdness - only happened on the home page - quelle bizarre! :o) No hover effect on action items (yet) Top Nav landing pages do not exist (yet) - no content from client Preloader done - thought it was part of the menu javascript Thanks for the feedback! Richard ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] W3C REFERER FIX?
Hi All - I've actually come across this before as well. But for my machine, this error only happens when trying to validate pages sitting on my hard-drive. The link is for the form that checks online pages. Upload your page to a server and try again :o) You can get heaps of bookmarklets that will help you validate your page while in development. These access the W3C's Validate by Upload form. Hope this helps :o) Richard ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Microsoft says Firefox not a threat to IE [OT?]
Remember with the W3 Browser Stats that it's mainly developers and geeks who are checking this site out. I'm guessing most of the public (and corporate sector that we build sites for) are more inline with The Counter's results. :o) Richard - Original Message - From: Anthony Timberlake [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Microsoft says Firefox not a threat to IE [OT?] 17.7% (sorry for the 40%)... That's still pretty good for a company that big! Source: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Microsoft says Firefox not a threat to IE [OT?]
I assumed these stats we gathered not only from their client base but from their internet.com suite of sites - surely used by corporate and IT... ? - Original Message - From: Natalie Buxton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Microsoft says Firefox not a threat to IE [OT?] Regarding The Counter Stats though, their counters are mainly on low-end photos of my cat and teenage I hate school angst sites, rather than corporate sites. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] discussion at juicy studio: It's all in the MIME
Sorry guys - I'm not sure what the issue is here... According to W3C, 'application/xhtml+xml' is the MIME type to use. I've put it pages and seen it not only validate, but also display correctly in IE5.0 and IE6. So I'm having trouble understanding what the problem with using this is... or why people 'need' to use text/html... Can someone please clarify? Richard :o) Source: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/xhtml-media-types.html#summary - Original Message - From: Christian Sonne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 9:54 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] discussion at juicy studio: It's all in the MIME Well.. the standards are pretty clear on this subject: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/xhtml-media-types.html#media-types http://www.w3.org/International/articles/serving-xhtml/ http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-xhtml1-20020801/#guidelines among I can quote stuff like this: XHTML documents served as 'text/html' will not be processed as XML [XML10], e.g. well-formedness errors may not be detected by user agents The 'text/html' media type [RFC2854] is primarily for HTML, not for XHTML ...many XHTML 1.0 files are actually served using the text/html MIME type. In this case, the user agent will treat the file as HTML It seems pretty clear that if you serve a valid xhtml1.0 document as text/html, it will be parsed as broken html by the standard sgml-parser. Moreover, if the DTD is modulated (as it is if you include the dtd for mathml) the mathml will be shown in plaintext, NOT properly rendered via the xml-parser... Basicly, if you can get away with sending as text/html, you really shouldn't be using xhtml in the first place. On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 09:23:43AM +1100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have been following this discussion (belatedly) It's all in the MIME http://www.juicystudio.com/all-in-the-mime.asp first paragraph: There have been a lot of articles recently about web standards; in particular, using XHTML and serving it as text/html. Personally, I'm not that bothered whether people serve XHTML as text/html, but think it's important that authors understand why this is wrong. Although I'm not bothered about content developers serving XHTML as text/html, I don't agree with people encouraging content developers to deliver XHTML as text/html. I wondered what other memebrs on the list thought about it and its implications? with regards Steven Faulkner Web Accessibility Consultant National Information Library Service (NILS) 454 Glenferrie Road Kooyong Victoria 3144 Phone: (613) 9864 9281 Fax: (613) 9864 9210 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] National Information Library Service A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** Best regards (my first post, yay!) -- Christian Sonne aka. FreakCERS Stud. scient. math-phys at University of Copenhagen -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK- Version: 3.12 GM/S/CS/O d? s: a---? C++ UL++$ P+ L++ E--- W++ N o@ K? w !O M-- V? PS++(+) PE@ Y-- PGP-@ t+ 5? X++ R@ tv++ b+(++) DI+++ D G@ e+ h! r-(--) y? --END GEEK CODE BLOCK-- http://geeksbynature.dk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] discussion at juicy studio: It's all in the MIME
Aha! NOW i get it! Thanks Patrick. I guess with people telling you to put inline scripts as text/JavaScript and CSS as text/css I just assumed that the meta would take care of it No one said anything previously about the server bit... That's clarified it for me. BUT... If, like most of my customers, theire sharing a server at some hosting company, then it's unlikely that the host would do this to their servers... Hmmm Richard :o - Original Message - From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] discussion at juicy studio: It's all in the MIME Richard Czeiger wrote: According to W3C, 'application/xhtml+xml' is the MIME type to use. I've put it pages and seen it not only validate, but also display correctly in IE5.0 and IE6. If IE displayed the page, rather than prompt you to download/save the file, then you're *not* really sending it as application/xhtml+xml. Taking a stab in the dark, I'd guess that all you did was change the content type meta to it. Well...that's not the way to do it. Your *server* needs to be configured to send out proper application/xhtml+xml, or - if you're using something like PHP server-side - you need to send the appropriate headers. If all you did was indeed just change the meta, your server is happily still sending out your page as text/html, and that's why IE is displaying it. If you have Firefox, simply go to the page in question and do Tools Page Info. On the resulting window, look for Type. You're more likely seeing text/html there, indicating that it's not application/xhtml+xml Oldie but goldie on the subject: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/03/19/dive-into-xml.html Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Current Page Link in own Class
Hi all :o)
Just thought I'd add this. Don't know if anyone's using something like this
but...
Here's how to add a class to your navigation to make the current page stand
out a bit more without putting it in the HTML.
This also assigns the class to any sublevel nav items in nested ULs.
Handy for those who dread going through every page and manually cutting and
pasting the class name onto the right menu item.
Variables:
MyMainNavigation is the ID of the top level ul in your nav list
currentNav is the name of the class in your stylesheet
// Assign Class Name to Current Page in Side Nav
// This goes in your external JS file
function getCurrentPageLink() {
navElements=document.getElementsByTagName(ul);
for( var i = 0; i navElements.length; i++ )
if (navElements(i).className == 'MyMainNavigation') {
navAnchors=navElements(i).getElementsByTagName(a);
for( var i = 0; i navAnchors.length; i++ )
if (navAnchors(i).href == document.location.href) {
navAnchors(i).className = 'currentNav';
}
}
}
}
}
window.onload = getCurrentPageLink;
Hope this helps :o)
Richard
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[WSG] Something new... LINE_HEIGHT
Hi all :o) Can't find any reference to this little pecularity on the web... OK. So I learned that it's better to use numbers rather than em's or % as numbers are inherited. BUT! Whenever i have my line-height set to 1.4 (or 140% or 1.4em for that matter), all the underlines of my links get squished to the text-bottom by 1 pixel. I know this sounds ridiculously finnicky but it can make them more difficult to read. OK - a concession: this ONLY seams to happen in IE5. Unfortunately, that what my client's are running and will be viewing my nice little Intranet on. You can check out examples here: http://www.vfme.com/images/firefox.gif http://www.vfme.com/images/ie50.gif Has anyone else heard of this microscopicly small little quirk? Cheers :o) Richard
Re: [WSG] links with same names
Personally, coming up with links that don't end in click here at the end of an article or section is something I find really difficult... The whole Find out more about ... at the bottom of each page looks too predictable. :o( Richard - Original Message - From: Andreas Boehmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 9:44 AM Subject: [WSG] links with same names One problem I come across regularly is the issue of not giving multiple links the same names. Let's say I have got a list of dynamically created news items, each one of them having a summary and a link to read more. Obviously this is inaccessible: 10 links all saying read more is not terribly helpful to anybody. But I would love to know how people solve this problem? Personally, I sometimes make the title of the news item the actual link, but I feel this is not user-friendly enough. Another option is to make the read me link unique by including the title of the news item in it (e.g. Read more about the new Benchmarking for Educational Effectiveness Program). The length of this link shows for itself that it is not the best solution either. Has anybody come up with better ways of solving this problem? Andreas Boehmer User Experience Consultant Phone: (03) 9417 0468 Mobile: (0411) 097 038 http://www.addictiveMedia.com.au Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] how so I stop all the postings coming to my email box?
no secret handshake?! I'm outta here! ;oP Richard - Original Message - From: Peter Firminger To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 3:36 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] how so I stop all the postings coming to my email box? Hi Casey, While answering your question I am also answering some other enquiries I have had recently so it's of interest to all (otherwise I'd answer off list). Joining WSG simply means joiningthe WSGmailing list. That's all there is (well, you can also add resources to the website as a member). I don't know what people expect for nothing. A badge or jacket? A secret handshake? Yes, digest mode will gather all the emails sent in a day and give them to you in one email. Probably a good idea to try it and see what it does. Most people with any list experience know what digest mode is, so I didn't think it needed explanation. It's quite clear in the terms of joining that you are joining a mailing list and the join message from the list server confirms it further. I'll look at the language and adjust if I think it's unclear. We don't have "boards" to read, we have a mailing list and given the complexity of the subject,there is often a lot of list traffic. This means that it's working as intended and nearly 1100 people around the world get answers to many questions and read some interesting debates on important issues like the correct use of elements within HTML and XHTML (semantics) and the appropriate uses of the languages. We get private emails from many members thanking us and saying how much the discussions have helped them, even though they didn't ask the initial question. I'm really not sure what you were expecting (boards?) but this is a mailing list, and seemingly a very effective one. Having said all that, when I get some time (or when someone offers to pay me while I do it 'cause I do have to eat and paying work comes first) I am looking at adding some fields to the member database so that you can be a member and not be on the mail list. This however means you won't be able to post to the list. We will give you some methods to read the list without receiving it in your mailbox. These include the current methods: The members archive (http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm ), the public archive (http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/ ) and an RSS feed (http://webstandardsgroup.org/rss.cfm ) you can read in something like FeedDemon. The date/time order in these is a little off butthey seem to work fine. No, there will not be a NewsGroup, a forum or a message board. The only method of getting help will be the mailing list as that is the root of this group. Personally, the mail list (with some filters inthe email client) works perfectly for me. Others choose a web-based email account (yahoo, hotmailor gmail) for reading the list posts. I have been testing the RSS feed and it's really no different. For those that have asked about list features, SmarterMail 2.0 has now been released and I'll be installing it soon so we may get a better Digest mode and hopefully (I haven't seen whether they implemented our suggestions) see the end of HTML email on the list altogether. Finally, let me point out that Russ and I (and the other core members) cannot watch the list every minute of the day. We have businesses to run and clients to keep happy. So not getting an answer within an hour is really not surprising from agroup (not club) with no membership fees. Also, we are in an entirely different time zone to you in Arizona (though our server is actually in Phoenix), all the core group are in eastern Australia. Welcome to the group Casey, I hope this clears up your questions. Regards, Peter Firminger From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of SRGSent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 4:19 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] how so I stop all the postings coming to my email box? Hi, I just JOINED your group last night and now find my email box bomb-barred with to many messages / how do I stop them and still remain a member of your group. I simple want to read the messages from your boards. Is that what the Digest Mode does, because that is not clearly indicated as to its actual function. Thanks for your help. Casey
Re: [WSG] web photo album
Umm, Don't know if this is what you guys are after, but you can check out and use the code here: http://www.grafx.com.au/dik All done in XHTML, CSS and JavaScript. No database, no PHP. All you need is to use Photoshop's Automate feature and do a bulk rename in Windows for the images and thumbnails. You can add captions via a caption.js file. Someone might find this fun... :o) Richard - Original Message - From: Neerav [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] web photo album PS If you want to see it working in real life, im currently setting it up for some travel photos at http://www.bhatt.id.au/photos/ Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav Neerav wrote: I have just found a great solution http://singapore.sourceforge.net/ singapore is yet another open source PHP based image gallery web application. What makes singapore different from the hundreds of other similar scripts is that it is specifically geared towards displaying photographic art and as such looks much nicer than most galleries. See it. It does NOT require MySQL or other database programs since all image information is stored in flat text CSV files (although an optional MySQL backend is planned for a future release). singapore also implements an info in filename system where artist and title information can be coded into the directory and file names meaning no database is required at all. More... Current features: * Flexible modes of operation: o Can store image info in CSV files on server (no database), or o Can store image info in directory and file names (no setup), or o Can function without any extra image info. * Multi language support * Support for unlimited depth of nested sub-galleries * Support for skins and templates * Very easy setup * Web based admin to add, delete edit images and galleries * Automatically generates thumbnails (requires GD or ImageMagick) * Generated thumbnails are cached for speed * Images may be stored on a different server * Image viewing statistics * User defined image information such as location taken, camera used etc. * XHTML 1.0 and CSS 2.0 compatible output only (no JavaScript and no cookies) Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav john wrote: Hello, WSG. In the process of getting some of my sites up to par with standards, I'm trying to find a clean alternative to the clunky photo albums I currently have. I could do it all by hand, but it would be extremely time-consuming (not to mention that I have a wife and kid that prevent me spending what time I have!), so can anybody please tell me if any software exists that can create clean thumbnailed albums using XHTML and CSS? Thanks a million. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] XHTML external links
Hi guys - having a little problem with the whole external links in XHTML
strict.
Code's below - doesn't seem to be working - can you help out?
a href=http://www.google.com.au/; rel=externalnew window/a
script
function externalLinks()
if (!document.getElementsByTagName) return;
var anchors = document.getElementsByTagName(a);
for (var i=0; ianchors.length; i++)
var anchor = anchors[i];
if (anchor.getAttribute(href) anchor.getAttribute(rel) ==
external) { anchor.target = _blank; }
}
}
window.onload = externalLinks;
/script
Cheers :o)
Richard
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
[WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links
Hi guys,
I'm putting together a semantically correct UL of links for my
footer.
I'd like to have them separated by 'pipes' as this is a common
and easily recognised technique.
But the pipes themselves are irrelevant (semantically). So
here's what I've come up with...
ALSO! My one thing is that if the text inside the links is
made up of two or more words, then they get pushed to separate lines. Is there a
way to avoid this without specifyinga width or without putting a 'no
broken spaces' between the words?
Can you suggest anything better?
style type="text/css"#footer
{text-align: center; }#footer ul li {display:
inline; width: 1px; margin: auto 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left:
1px solid #00; line-height: 120%; }#footer ul
li:first-child { border-left: none; }/* Not rendered by a few agents, so
we'll use the 'footerBorderKill' _javascript_ function switches off the first
child's left border *//style
div id="footer" ul id
="contentLinks" lia href=""
title="Link 1" accesskey="1"link/a/li
lia href="" title="Link 2" accesskey="2"link with
multiple words/a/li lia
href="" title="Link 3"
accesskey="3"link/a/li lia
href="" title="Link 4"
accesskey="4"linknbsp;withnbsp;NoBrokenSpaces/a/li
lia href="" title="Link 5"
accesskey="5"link/a/li /ul
ul id="validationLinks" lia
href="" rel="external" title="Check
XHTML"xhtml/a/li lia
href="" rel="external"
title="Check CSS"css/a/li
lia href=""
rel="external" title="View license"cc/a/li
/ul/div
script type="text/_javascript_"//![CDATA[//
Kills the Left Border on the Footer Navigationfunction footerBorderKill()
{myBody=document.getElementById('footer');myBodyElements=myBody.getElementsByTagName("ul");
// Gets all the UL elements that are children of 'footer'for( var i =
0; i myBodyElements.length; i++ )
{myList=myBodyElements.item(i); // Loops through all the ULs in
the footermyListElements=myList.getElementsByTagName("li"); //
Gets all the LI elements that are children of the
ULsmyLI=myListElements.item(0); // Gets the first item of the
list of LI elementsmyLI.style.borderLeft = 'none'; // And sets
its border to nothing}}window.>//]]/script
Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links
Title: Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links
Sure but this only works on, like, two browsers!
Is there a funckier CSS hack kind of way?
:o)
Richard
- Original Message -
From:
Kevin Futter
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 12:02
PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantically creating
'pipes' for footer links
For the line wrapping issue, you could
try:whitespace: nowrap;On whatever element is giving you
trouble.Cheers,Kevin FutterOn 5/10/04 11:28 AM, "Richard
Czeiger" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Hi guys,I'm putting together a
semantically correct UL of links for my footer.I'd like to have them
separated by 'pipes' as this is a common and easily recognised
technique.But the pipes themselves are irrelevant (semantically). So
here's what I've come up with...ALSO! My one thing is that if
the text inside the links is made up of two or more words, then they get
pushed to separate lines. Is there a way to avoid this without specifying a
width or without putting a 'no broken spaces' between the words?Can you
suggest anything better?style
type="text/css"#footer {text-align: center;
}#footer ul li {display: inline; width: 1px;
margin: auto 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: 1px solid
#00; line-height: 120%; }#footer ul li:first-child {
border-left: none; }/* Not rendered by a few agents, so we'll use the
'footerBorderKill' _javascript_ function switches off the first child's left
border *//stylediv
id="footer"ul id
="contentLinks"lia
href="" title="Link 1"
accesskey="1"link/a/lilia
href="" title="Link 2" accesskey="2"link with multiple
words/a/lilia
href="" title="Link 3"
accesskey="3"link/a/lilia
href="" title="Link 4"
accesskey="4"linknbsp;withnbsp;NoBrokenSpaces/a/lilia
href="" title="Link 5"
accesskey="5"link/a/li/ulul
id="validationLinks"lia href=""http://validator.w3.org/check/referer">http://validator.w3.org/check/referer"
rel="external" title="Check
XHTML"xhtml/a/lilia
href=""http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/check/referer">http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/check/referer"
rel="external" title="Check
CSS"css/a/lilia
href=""http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/">http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/"
rel="external" title="View
license"cc/a/li/ul/divscript
type="text/_javascript_"//![CDATA[// Kills the Left Border on the
Footer Navigationfunction footerBorderKill()
{myBody=document.getElementById('footer');myBodyElements=myBody.getElementsByTagName("ul");
// Gets all the UL elements that are children of 'footer'for( var
i = 0; i myBodyElements.length; i++ )
{myList=myBodyElements.item(i); // Loops through all the ULs
in the
footermyListElements=myList.getElementsByTagName("li"); //
Gets all the LI elements that are children of the
ULsmyLI=myListElements.item(0); // Gets the first item of
the list of LI elementsmyLI.style.borderLeft = 'none'; //
And sets its border to nothing}}window.>//]]/script
Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links
Good point - I guess I might settle for Neerav's option and have the pipes at the beginning and the end phooey! wish i could've gotten a solution to that one :o( that's for eveyone's input though... Richard - Original Message - From: Nick Gleitzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links I have to say I'd use an extra class on the first li over that big chunk o' Javascript any day. Apart from the extra code, what if I have Javascript disabled? My 2c... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ On Tuesday, Oct 5, 2004, at 13:55 Australia/Sydney, Richard Czeiger wrote: Thanks for the feedback guys but the problem persists ! :o) While Neerav's solution puts pipes before the first and after the last - I am trying to get rid of these so that it looks like this: link | link | link | link and NOT | link | link | link | link | see? Ben's solution requires a separate class attached to the first list item. Again - this is kind of clunky when you're trying to work with the best possible form of an inherited cascade. That's why I used the JavaScript to kill the first LI in each UL in the footer - at least until the pseudo class firstChild is implemented by browsers. Also the Taming Lists article looses it's styling for IE 5 and above (same with the Practical CSS Layout Tips article). Anyone else? Richard :o) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Fluid Horizontal Lists
Nup - collapses in IE :o( Richard - Original Message - From: Neerav [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Fluid Horizontal Lists just a quick thought that may be completely wrong, but have you tried % based padding for li ? Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27 http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav Todd Baker wrote: Hi Guys, I have just joined the list after attending WE04. My name is Todd Baker and I work as a XSLT/XHTML/CSS developer in Sydney. I am doing a big CSS based rebuild for one of our clients and am having some troubles with our fluid layout. I want to use horizontal lists for our primary navigation but the designs requires that the nav items are fluid, i.e. the gap between them grows and contracts with the browser width. I have based the nav on this -- http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/horizontal16.htm but after playing with % width's and margin's Im still not there. Has anyone solved the same problem else where and has some tips to help me? Thanks in advance. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Reminder, Sydney WSG meeting tomorrow night
I don't know while parking's a pain, I don't think it would take most folks over an hour to get there if they leave work at 5:30 ... R :o) - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Reminder, Sydney WSG meeting tomorrow night Has anyone ever suggested having Sydney WSG meetings outside the CBD, in a more demographically central location, perhaps? There's also the question of whether a 6:30pm meeting is suitable for those of us who would have to travel from the suburbs... = CAUTION: This message may contain both confidential and privileged information intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the intended recipient any dissemination, distribution or reproduction of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error please notify the sender immediately, then destroy the original message. Any views expressed in this message are solely those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Peregrine Semiconductor Australia. All care has been taken to screen this message and attachments for computer viruses, however, we accept no responsibility for viruses it may contain. Peregrine Semiconductor Australia Pty Ltd 8 Herb Elliott Ave., Homebush 2140. NSW Australia. Ph. +612 9763 4111 Fax. +612 9746 1501 = ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
