Kim, Do you know how difficult it is to communicate with someone who distorts what another says in order to try and make their point?
Where did I say "point blank that [your] choices are wrong?" Where did I say "that [you] cannot do what brings [you} great joy?" What I did imply is that you were missing or omitting the total impacts/consequences/externalities of some choices. I don't know why. You certainly are able to understand the costs/benefits of other choices. Maybe you have already considered those consequences most fully. But you were only painting the rosy upside of the majority of your other consumer and lifestyle choices in your posts. I mean let's get real. If people are going to make decisions, it's not a bad practice to have contemplated all the peripheral issues, not just those that cast shadow in one particular direction or another. And since this is a public forum, it's not a bad practice to present all three sides of a coin. As for trying to "win anyone to environmentalism?" Sure, millions could be "won" rather easily by glossing over negative realities and focusing primarily on the positive. Unfortunately, that doesn't make the negatives disappear. Nor does it make their consequences evaporate. However, I believe you summed up the matter rather nicely when you point out that pleasure is what a high number of decisions are predicated upon. Therein lays much of the problem, right alongside problems rising out of people not having enough resources to afford what brings them stability, much less pleasure. Under full illumination, principle tends to lose out all too frequently to pleasure and poverty. Todd Swearingen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim & Garth Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 7:20 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Tim Castleman's Post > Todd, > I am well aware that we are not the only 2 people on this planet, but do > you really expect to get people to listen when you tell them point blank > that their choices are wrong? My response is to figure out how much energy > we are entitled to and then let us spend it where we choose. I am working > hard to learn enough to go completely off grid and not use any petroleum > products in my daily life. I am not there yet, and it will take a few more > years, but that is how I balance my airplane tickets. The original post > asked how we expect the public to pay any attention to the environment when > we, the environmentalists, use airplanes etc., ourselves. I do not expect > to win anyone to voluntary environmental responsibility by telling them > that they can not do what brings them great joy. Instead, point out the > price tag and ask what are they willing to pay to be able to do what they > really want to. > Bright Blessings, > Kim > > At 03:12 PM 5/6/2004, you wrote: > >Well, actually Kim, > > > >You and I are not the only two people on the planet. There happen to be well > >over 6 billion others, several billion who are perfectly comfortable living > >within the norm of excess and avarice. > > > >And you can probably bet that out of every 20 trips that you take by > >airliner, you would still be hard pressed to find yourself seated next to > >the first person who lives as do you. > > > >Which, rather sadly and simply, makes you the exception, not the rule. > > > >But then again, every time you take one of those air trips you become "the > >rule," with your energy consumption for each day of travel probably > >increasing 30-40 fold in comparison to what you consume an an average day in > >your sphere of influence And, if you wanted to get into a "spitting match," > >those annual airline flights on your part probably put you over the top in > >comparison to a lot of other people as far as your average energy > >consumption, making their energy path considerably softer in comparison to > >what your's might appear to be on the surface. > > > >I know. It's a bit distressing. But we can't pick and choose what parts of > >our personal energy equation we want to turn a blind eye to. > > > >As for > > > > > Sometimes you just need to hug your children! > > > >That's what the family horse, dog, goats and two cats are for..... > > > >Just kidding. > > > >Todd Swearingen > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Kim & Garth Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > >Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 12:47 PM > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Tim Castleman's Post > > > > > > > Todd, > > > > > > Actually these actions are not duplicated at my house, my toilets don't > > > flush, you add leaves then dump the bucket on the compost pile. The yard > > > is mowed by the cows and sheep, I use a solar oven most of the time, there > > > is no satellite hooked up to the television so it is only on for the > > > occasional movie. Music comes out of a piano, etc. I also don't wash the > > > sheets every day like a hotel does, my meals don't travel any miles as I > > > grow 85% of my food. I have a serious non-electric kitchen. My clothes > > > dry on a line, much better than a commercial dryer. I am serious about > > > doing my bit for the environment. > > > > > > Do with out air travel???? I have one daughter and family in London, > > > England. I have another one with family in Edmonton, Alberta, a son about > > > to get married in Vancouver, British Columbia and I live near Houston, > > > Texas. Yes, we use Internet to keep in touch but Weddings, Funerals and > > > family get togethers once in a while are also a necessity of > > > life. Sometimes you just need to hug your children! > > > > > > Each of us uses their share of energy in their own way. My vehicles are > > > parked most of the time. I do not have a big truck and car, I drive the > > > smallest, most efficient vehicle that will do the job. > > > > > > And yes, the mortgage is paid in full. As is everything else. > > > > > > Bright Blessings, > > > Kim > > > > > > At 11:59 AM 5/6/2004, you wrote: > > > >Kim, > > > > > > > >The 58,000# cargo capacity for the airliner is inclusive of human cargo. > > > > > > > >Private residence energy consumption vs commercial hotel industry? > >Everytime > > > >you open the fridge, take a shower, flush a toilet, crank up the oven, > >mow > > > >the yard, go to the grocery, etc., etc. > > > > > > > >All these actions are duplicated in each environment - "vacation days" or > > > >home days. > > > > > > > >To know how much more fuel is consumed on a "vacation day" vs a day at > >home, > > > >one must be subtracted from the other. > > > > > > > >In theory, the economies of scale relative to fuel consumption for many > > > >aspects of the support industries of "vaction days" should be more > > > >efficient - more efficient boilers, mass transit in cities, fewer > >laborers > > > >per whatever task performed (meaning reduced trasportation fuels for > >those > > > >laborers). > > > > > > > >There's a big difference in energy inputs per pound for a 500# industrial > > > >washing machine vs your residential unit of choice. And the example can > >be > > > >transferred to hundreds of other mediums. > > > > > > > >It'd drive you crazy trying to calculate it all. Much easier just to do > > > >without, keep your sanity and your hair and get the mortgage paid off a > >bit > > > >earlier rather than paying for some financier's $75,000 diamond wedding > >band > > > >set. > > > > > > > >Todd Swearingen > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: "Kim & Garth Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > >Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 11:44 AM > > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Tim Castleman's Post > > > > > > > > > > > > > Todd, > > > > > > > > > > I don't see where you are taking into account the number of people on > >the > > > > > flight into the cost per mileage per person or per pound, since I have > >not > > > > > seen an empty seat on an airplane for years. Also, what energy usage > >at > > > > > home, some of use manage to use almost none so the amount of energy > >usage > > > > > on the road is way huge in comparison. I don't know anyone who drive > > > > > Houston to Vancouver in 3 days, the truckers call it 5 and I can not > >do 14 > > > > > hours a day in a vehicle so I would be looking at closer to 7 days of > > > > > travel. The biggest factor I can see is the cost of lives of people > >on > > > >the > > > > > highways that are too tired to be there, accidents do tend to happen > >to > > > > > tired people. > > > > > > > > > > For long trips, air travel is a reasonable alternative when all the > >costs > > > > > are added up. There is a lot of support for the roads, the rail lines > >or > > > > > any form of transportation and they all cost energy. Yes you can spin > > > >this > > > > > any way you want, but in some cases it is the best method. > > > > > > > > > > Air freight is expensive to the pocket book and the environment. I > >never > > > > > use it if I have a choice. Some companies don't give you that choice, > > > >when > > > > > you order from them. I believe in telephones, conference calling, > >video > > > > > cams on computers and many other methods of communicating that will > > > > > eliminate the need for travel. But there are day when you just want > >to > > > >hug > > > > > your kids! > > > > > > > > > > Bright Blessings, > > > > > Kim > > > > > > > > > > At 11:25 AM 5/6/2004, you wrote: > > > > > >Kim, > > > > > > > > > > > >Flight, just because it's quick, certainly isn't energy efficient. > > > > > > > > > > > >It takes a bit more fuel to propel a Boeing 727 (~152,000#s empty > >with > > > > > >~58,000#s cargo capacity) and one pound of body fat through the air > >at > > > > > >30,000 feet than it does to propel a 2,500 pound car (on the ground, > >of > > > > > >course) and one pound of body fat. > > > > > > > > > > > >The 727- 200, burns ~1,678 gallons per hour when cruising at ~580 > >mph. > > > > > > > > > > > >If you started with a 3,000 mile trip, divide by 580 mph, multiply by > > > >1,678 > > > > > >gallons per hour and then divide by the 58,000#s of cargo and > >passenger > > > > > >weight, you come up with a fuel consumption of ~19.154 fluid ounces > >of > > > >fuel > > > > > >per pound for the 3,000 mile trip. > > > > > > > > > > > >If you duplicated that equation using a four seat VW Golf diesel, > >with a > > > > > >maximum payload of 900#s and having a rated fuel economy of 48 mpg, > >you > > > > > >come up with a fuel consumption of 8.889 fluid ounces of fuel per > >pound > > > >for > > > > > >the 3,000 mile trip. > > > > > > > > > > > >That equates to passenger car travel consuming less than half the > >fuel as > > > > > >does air travel, at least when comparing a VW Golf diesel to a Boeing > > > > > >727-200 - hardly numbers that can be transferred across the board > >when > > > >you > > > > > >consider that not every vehicle on the road is rated at 48 mpg, nor > >is > > > >every > > > > > >airliner or commuter airplane rated at 1,678 gallons per hour of > >flight. > > > > > > > > > > > >There are boatloads of other variables that can be piled onto such a > > > >quick > > > > > >calculation and massaged to give whatever spin someone would like. > >Both > > > > > >industries have monumental support infrastructures that consume > >massive > > > > > >amounts of fuel and it would probably take a year of doctoral work to > > > >come > > > > > >anywhere close to a relatively ambiguous comparison.. After all, 4 > >people > > > > > >would sleep three nights on the Golf side of the equation and 160 > > > >passengers > > > > > >and crew would sleep 1 night on the 727 side. But then you would have > >to > > > > > >subtract the energy that would have been consumed at the primary > > > >residences > > > > > >of all passengers from that consumed when using the same services on > >the > > > > > >road. And then........, well........, you get the picture. > > > > > > > > > > > >Anyway, the raw transportation fuel comparison for each of the two > > > >vehicles > > > > > >above is largely sound. > > > > > > > > > > > >Mind you that truck and rail traffic can get fuel/payload ratios down > > > >even > > > > > >further, giving all the more reason for energy conscious business > >persons > > > > > >and consumers to never ship a package airfreight. > > > > > > > > > > > >UPS air, Airborne and Fed Ex air aren't exactly fuel > > > > > >efficienct/environmental bargains. > > > > > > > > > > > >Todd Swearingen > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >From: "Kim & Garth Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > >Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 7:26 AM > > > > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Tim Castleman's Post > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greetings, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would you care to figure our time into that equation? Yes, I am > > > >serious > > > > > > > about the environment and yes, I do travel by plane. If I am > > > >traveling > > > > > > > from Houston, Texas to Vancouver, British Columbia it is the best > > > >method > > > > > > > since you also have to figure in all our meals and the energy and > >cost > > > > > >that > > > > > > > they incur, as well as the travel. I would like more than 3 hours > >out > > > >of > > > > > >a > > > > > > > 2 week trip to actually get to know my future daughter-in-law, on > >this > > > > > > > trip, which is about what I would get if I traveled by train. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I can understand your point with the daily shuttles between > > > >major > > > > > > > cities, and yes there is some abuse, there is far more to the > >equation > > > > > >than > > > > > > > you have presented. There are things like driving fatigue > >accidents > > > >to > > > > > > > consider for business trips. The cost in energy of running > >motels, > > > >where > > > > > > > the sheets have to be washed everyday because there are different > > > >people > > > > > >in > > > > > > > the bed everyday. Meals in restaurants are really abusive of > >energy > > > >and > > > > > > > not very healthy. And the biggy, time with family that the slower > > > >methods > > > > > > > of travel eat up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree conservation is something to go after, but > >tele-confrencing > > > >not > > > > > > > travel should be used more. If travel is really necessary, the > >planes > > > >do > > > > > > > have saving to offer sometimes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bright Blessings, > > > > > > > Kim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 12:15 AM 5/6/2004, you wrote: > > > > > > > >Hi Lyle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >What I am saying is that it is socially irresponsible to promote > > > > > > > >biofuels without at least an equal effort to promote a > >SIGNIFICANT > > > > > > > >reduction in consumption on the order of 1/5th the current > >amount, > > > > > > > >BY ALL OF US. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >For example, Jet Air Travel. I am amazed at the number of > >so-called > > > > > > > >environmentalists that refuse to give up this particular bad > >habit. > > > > > > > >Here we have an industry subsidized with over 18 times the amount > > > > > > > >allowed for super efficient train travel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Average BTU consumed Per Passenger mile by mode of travel: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >SUV: 4,591 > > > > > > > >Air: 4,123 > > > > > > > >Bus: 3,729 > > > > > > > >Car: 3,672 > > > > > > > >Train: 2,138 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Source: Bureau of Transportation Statistics > > > > > > > >http://199.79.179.77/publications/nts/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Another example, folks insist on racing from red light to red > >light > > > > > > > >as fast as possible, and when on highways and freeways routinely > > > > > > > >speed 20 to 30 mph above posted speed limits. The cops have given > >up > > > > > > > >trying to enforce speed limits (a whole other rant) so the race > >is > > > > > > > >on. Now everyone knows the faster one goes the more fuel is > > > > > > > >consumed, yet bring up the idea of restoring the 55 MPH speed > >limit, > > > > > > > >and enforcing existing speed limits, and watch the so-called > > > > > > > >environmentalists scurry for cover like roaches when the lights > >come > > > > > > > >on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This one simple measure could reduce consumption, emmissions & > > > > > > > >reliance on imported oil 20% to 50%! Visit the Drive 55 > >Conservation > > > > > > > >website to read several reports and articles in support of this > > > > > > > >claim: http://drive55.org/pn/index.php > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >So, all that said, and seeing as you "fundamentally agree" with > > > > > > > >my "conservation message" - what commitments are you prepared to > > > > > > > >make to reduce your personal consumption of energy? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I refuse to fly in jet airplanes now. I plan better and stick to > > > > > > > >surface transportation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >When I drive my 78 300D, I obey speed limits, rarely exceeding 55 > > > > > > > >MPH. By staying in the right lane I have found this very easy as > > > > > > > >that is the maximum for trucks here in California. Guess what, > > > > > > > >McDonalds BRAGS about sticking to 55 MPH with stickers on their > > > > > > > >trucks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I have replaced every light bulb in my home with 13 watt > > > > > > > >flourescents and installed dual pane windows among the ongoing > > > > > > > >efforts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I ride my bike whenever possible for most trips to the store, > >bank, > > > > > > > >and other errands. I even take it on the light rail when I go > > > > > > > >downtown. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >When I shop I pay close attention to the source of the products I > > > > > > > >buy, and always choose locally produced goods if possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I share this message with everyone I meet, along with the > > > > > > > >information I have about cellulosic ethanol, biodiesel, and other > > > > > > > >types of biofuel as a PART of the equation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I will say this very plainly again now: It is socially > >irresponsible > > > > > > > >to promote biofuels without AT LEAST an equal effort made to > >promote > > > > > > > >conservation. The offense is compounded when someone claiming > > > > > > > >concern for the environment refuses to acknowledge this in their > >own > > > > > > > >life, and joins in the funding of petroleum warlords. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Peace, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Tim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Lyle Estill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Tim, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I fundamentally agree with your conservation message, and your > > > > > > > >mantra > > > > > > > > > of social responsibility and sustainability, > > > > > > > > > but I think questioning feedstock capacities at this point is > >a > > > > > > > >straw > > > > > > > > > argument. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saying we can't grow enough to meet our fuel needs is a little > > > > > > > >like > > > > > > > > > saying we shouldn't make electricity from wind--after all, the > > > > > > > >wind > > > > > > > > > doesn't always blow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lyle Estill > > > > > > > > > V.P., Stuff > > > > > > > > > Piedmont Biofuels > > > > > > > > > www.biofuels.coop > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > > > > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Biofuels list archives: > > > > > > > >http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > > > > > > > >To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > > > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > >Yahoo! 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