Todd, I did not say you said those things, I said there were posted in the original message on the thread. And yes some of it is implied, but how else does one interpret: "For example, Jet Air Travel. I am amazed at the number of so-called environmentalists that refuse to give up this particular bad habit."
I don't know why you think I am missing the impact of my choices when I admit that life is a matter of trade-offs and balance. I run a sustainable farm, it requires daily attendance. My family is scattered to the winds. Balance for me is to keep my small share of petroleum resources to go and see my family. Driving or train or any other slower method of travel means selling the farm! Or are you volunteering to look after it for several months while this decreped old body slowly moves across a continent and back. Yes I have a friend who will do my chores for 2 weeks, but she does not weed gardens, or start new plants or breed my rabbits or any of the other things that need to be done for the future. She does basic maitainance for the farms survival. I have chosen the lowest impact lifestyle I can. To choose, generally means to understand what the choices are. Aristotle said it thousands of years ago: Happiness is the greatest Good. What is wrong with pleasure? Pleasure does not equal greed. I do not see how we are going to get anyone to live more environmentally sound if we treat pleasure as evil. How many and what resources do you need to give you pleasure? My pleasure is not about accumulating things, but enjoying the natural world. It is the joy of finding more and more earth worms in my soil. Of watching the lambs play. Of watching the baby bunnies play. Of eating good food that was grown in healthy soil. Maybe this is why I don't owe any money? While I had to post and run; If you wish to continue this, it will have to be after I return. I am going no mail for 2 weeks. Bright Blessings, Kim At 08:21 AM 5/7/2004, you wrote: >Kim, > >Do you know how difficult it is to communicate with someone who distorts >what another says in order to try and make their point? > >Where did I say "point blank that [your] choices are wrong?" Where did I say >"that [you] cannot do what brings [you} great joy?" > >What I did imply is that you were missing or omitting the total >impacts/consequences/externalities of some choices. I don't know why. You >certainly are able to understand the costs/benefits of other choices. Maybe >you have already considered those consequences most fully. But you were only >painting the rosy upside of the majority of your other consumer and >lifestyle choices in your posts. > >I mean let's get real. If people are going to make decisions, it's not a bad >practice to have contemplated all the peripheral issues, not just those that >cast shadow in one particular direction or another. And since this is a >public forum, it's not a bad practice to present all three sides of a coin. > >As for trying to "win anyone to environmentalism?" Sure, millions could be >"won" rather easily by glossing over negative realities and focusing >primarily on the positive. Unfortunately, that doesn't make the negatives >disappear. Nor does it make their consequences evaporate. > >However, I believe you summed up the matter rather nicely when you point out >that pleasure is what a high number of decisions are predicated upon. > >Therein lays much of the problem, right alongside problems rising out of >people not having enough resources to afford what brings them stability, >much less pleasure. > >Under full illumination, principle tends to lose out all too frequently to >pleasure and poverty. > >Todd Swearingen > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kim & Garth Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 7:20 AM >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Tim Castleman's Post > > > > Todd, > > I am well aware that we are not the only 2 people on this planet, but do > > you really expect to get people to listen when you tell them point blank > > that their choices are wrong? My response is to figure out how much >energy > > we are entitled to and then let us spend it where we choose. I am working > > hard to learn enough to go completely off grid and not use any petroleum > > products in my daily life. I am not there yet, and it will take a few >more > > years, but that is how I balance my airplane tickets. The original post > > asked how we expect the public to pay any attention to the environment >when > > we, the environmentalists, use airplanes etc., ourselves. I do not expect > > to win anyone to voluntary environmental responsibility by telling them > > that they can not do what brings them great joy. Instead, point out the > > price tag and ask what are they willing to pay to be able to do what they > > really want to. > > Bright Blessings, > > Kim > > > > At 03:12 PM 5/6/2004, you wrote: > > >Well, actually Kim, > > > > > >You and I are not the only two people on the planet. There happen to be >well > > >over 6 billion others, several billion who are perfectly comfortable >living > > >within the norm of excess and avarice. > > > > > >And you can probably bet that out of every 20 trips that you take by > > >airliner, you would still be hard pressed to find yourself seated next to > > >the first person who lives as do you. > > > > > >Which, rather sadly and simply, makes you the exception, not the rule. > > > > > >But then again, every time you take one of those air trips you become >"the > > >rule," with your energy consumption for each day of travel probably > > >increasing 30-40 fold in comparison to what you consume an an average day >in > > >your sphere of influence And, if you wanted to get into a "spitting >match," > > >those annual airline flights on your part probably put you over the top >in > > >comparison to a lot of other people as far as your average energy > > >consumption, making their energy path considerably softer in comparison >to > > >what your's might appear to be on the surface. > > > > > >I know. It's a bit distressing. But we can't pick and choose what parts >of > > >our personal energy equation we want to turn a blind eye to. > > > > > >As for > > > > > > > Sometimes you just need to hug your children! > > > > > >That's what the family horse, dog, goats and two cats are for..... > > > > > >Just kidding. > > > > > >Todd Swearingen > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Kim & Garth Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > >Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 12:47 PM > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Tim Castleman's Post > > > > > > > > > > Todd, > > > > > > > > Actually these actions are not duplicated at my house, my toilets >don't > > > > flush, you add leaves then dump the bucket on the compost pile. The >yard > > > > is mowed by the cows and sheep, I use a solar oven most of the time, >there > > > > is no satellite hooked up to the television so it is only on for the > > > > occasional movie. Music comes out of a piano, etc. I also don't wash >the > > > > sheets every day like a hotel does, my meals don't travel any miles as >I > > > > grow 85% of my food. I have a serious non-electric kitchen. My >clothes > > > > dry on a line, much better than a commercial dryer. I am serious >about > > > > doing my bit for the environment. > > > > > > > > Do with out air travel???? I have one daughter and family in London, > > > > England. I have another one with family in Edmonton, Alberta, a son >about > > > > to get married in Vancouver, British Columbia and I live near Houston, > > > > Texas. Yes, we use Internet to keep in touch but Weddings, Funerals >and > > > > family get togethers once in a while are also a necessity of > > > > life. Sometimes you just need to hug your children! > > > > > > > > Each of us uses their share of energy in their own way. My vehicles >are > > > > parked most of the time. I do not have a big truck and car, I drive >the > > > > smallest, most efficient vehicle that will do the job. > > > > > > > > And yes, the mortgage is paid in full. As is everything else. > > > > > > > > Bright Blessings, > > > > Kim > > > > > > > > At 11:59 AM 5/6/2004, you wrote: > > > > >Kim, > > > > > > > > > >The 58,000# cargo capacity for the airliner is inclusive of human >cargo. > > > > > > > > > >Private residence energy consumption vs commercial hotel industry? > > >Everytime > > > > >you open the fridge, take a shower, flush a toilet, crank up the >oven, > > >mow > > > > >the yard, go to the grocery, etc., etc. > > > > > > > > > >All these actions are duplicated in each environment - "vacation >days" or > > > > >home days. > > > > > > > > > >To know how much more fuel is consumed on a "vacation day" vs a day >at > > >home, > > > > >one must be subtracted from the other. > > > > > > > > > >In theory, the economies of scale relative to fuel consumption for >many > > > > >aspects of the support industries of "vaction days" should be more > > > > >efficient - more efficient boilers, mass transit in cities, fewer > > >laborers > > > > >per whatever task performed (meaning reduced trasportation fuels for > > >those > > > > >laborers). > > > > > > > > > >There's a big difference in energy inputs per pound for a 500# >industrial > > > > >washing machine vs your residential unit of choice. And the example >can > > >be > > > > >transferred to hundreds of other mediums. > > > > > > > > > >It'd drive you crazy trying to calculate it all. Much easier just to >do > > > > >without, keep your sanity and your hair and get the mortgage paid off >a > > >bit > > > > >earlier rather than paying for some financier's $75,000 diamond >wedding > > >band > > > > >set. > > > > > > > > > >Todd Swearingen > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > >From: "Kim & Garth Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > >Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 11:44 AM > > > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Tim Castleman's Post > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Todd, > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see where you are taking into account the number of people >on > > >the > > > > > > flight into the cost per mileage per person or per pound, since I >have > > >not > > > > > > seen an empty seat on an airplane for years. Also, what energy >usage > > >at > > > > > > home, some of use manage to use almost none so the amount of >energy > > >usage > > > > > > on the road is way huge in comparison. I don't know anyone who >drive > > > > > > Houston to Vancouver in 3 days, the truckers call it 5 and I can >not > > >do 14 > > > > > > hours a day in a vehicle so I would be looking at closer to 7 days >of > > > > > > travel. The biggest factor I can see is the cost of lives of >people > > >on > > > > >the > > > > > > highways that are too tired to be there, accidents do tend to >happen > > >to > > > > > > tired people. > > > > > > > > > > > > For long trips, air travel is a reasonable alternative when all >the > > >costs > > > > > > are added up. There is a lot of support for the roads, the rail >lines > > >or > > > > > > any form of transportation and they all cost energy. Yes you can >spin > > > > >this > > > > > > any way you want, but in some cases it is the best method. > > > > > > > > > > > > Air freight is expensive to the pocket book and the environment. >I > > >never > > > > > > use it if I have a choice. Some companies don't give you that >choice, > > > > >when > > > > > > you order from them. I believe in telephones, conference calling, > > >video > > > > > > cams on computers and many other methods of communicating that >will > > > > > > eliminate the need for travel. But there are day when you just >want > > >to > > > > >hug > > > > > > your kids! > > > > > > > > > > > > Bright Blessings, > > > > > > Kim > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:25 AM 5/6/2004, you wrote: > > > > > > >Kim, > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Flight, just because it's quick, certainly isn't energy >efficient. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >It takes a bit more fuel to propel a Boeing 727 (~152,000#s empty > > >with > > > > > > >~58,000#s cargo capacity) and one pound of body fat through the >air > > >at > > > > > > >30,000 feet than it does to propel a 2,500 pound car (on the >ground, > > >of > > > > > > >course) and one pound of body fat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The 727- 200, burns ~1,678 gallons per hour when cruising at ~580 > > >mph. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >If you started with a 3,000 mile trip, divide by 580 mph, >multiply by > > > > >1,678 > > > > > > >gallons per hour and then divide by the 58,000#s of cargo and > > >passenger > > > > > > >weight, you come up with a fuel consumption of ~19.154 fluid >ounces > > >of > > > > >fuel > > > > > > >per pound for the 3,000 mile trip. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >If you duplicated that equation using a four seat VW Golf diesel, > > >with a > > > > > > >maximum payload of 900#s and having a rated fuel economy of 48 >mpg, > > >you > > > > > > >come up with a fuel consumption of 8.889 fluid ounces of fuel per > > >pound > > > > >for > > > > > > >the 3,000 mile trip. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >That equates to passenger car travel consuming less than half the > > >fuel as > > > > > > >does air travel, at least when comparing a VW Golf diesel to a >Boeing > > > > > > >727-200 - hardly numbers that can be transferred across the board > > >when > > > > >you > > > > > > >consider that not every vehicle on the road is rated at 48 mpg, >nor > > >is > > > > >every > > > > > > >airliner or commuter airplane rated at 1,678 gallons per hour of > > >flight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >There are boatloads of other variables that can be piled onto >such a > > > > >quick > > > > > > >calculation and massaged to give whatever spin someone would >like. > > >Both > > > > > > >industries have monumental support infrastructures that consume > > >massive > > > > > > >amounts of fuel and it would probably take a year of doctoral >work to > > > > >come > > > > > > >anywhere close to a relatively ambiguous comparison.. After all, >4 > > >people > > > > > > >would sleep three nights on the Golf side of the equation and 160 > > > > >passengers > > > > > > >and crew would sleep 1 night on the 727 side. But then you would >have > > >to > > > > > > >subtract the energy that would have been consumed at the primary > > > > >residences > > > > > > >of all passengers from that consumed when using the same services >on > > >the > > > > > > >road. And then........, well........, you get the picture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Anyway, the raw transportation fuel comparison for each of the >two > > > > >vehicles > > > > > > >above is largely sound. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mind you that truck and rail traffic can get fuel/payload ratios >down > > > > >even > > > > > > >further, giving all the more reason for energy conscious business > > >persons > > > > > > >and consumers to never ship a package airfreight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >UPS air, Airborne and Fed Ex air aren't exactly fuel > > > > > > >efficienct/environmental bargains. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Todd Swearingen > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > >From: "Kim & Garth Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > >Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 7:26 AM > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Tim Castleman's Post > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greetings, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would you care to figure our time into that equation? Yes, I >am > > > > >serious > > > > > > > > about the environment and yes, I do travel by plane. If I am > > > > >traveling > > > > > > > > from Houston, Texas to Vancouver, British Columbia it is the >best > > > > >method > > > > > > > > since you also have to figure in all our meals and the energy >and > > >cost > > > > > > >that > > > > > > > > they incur, as well as the travel. I would like more than 3 >hours > > >out > > > > >of > > > > > > >a > > > > > > > > 2 week trip to actually get to know my future daughter-in-law, >on > > >this > > > > > > > > trip, which is about what I would get if I traveled by train. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I can understand your point with the daily shuttles >between > > > > >major > > > > > > > > cities, and yes there is some abuse, there is far more to the > > >equation > > > > > > >than > > > > > > > > you have presented. There are things like driving fatigue > > >accidents > > > > >to > > > > > > > > consider for business trips. The cost in energy of running > > >motels, > > > > >where > > > > > > > > the sheets have to be washed everyday because there are >different > > > > >people > > > > > > >in > > > > > > > > the bed everyday. Meals in restaurants are really abusive of > > >energy > > > > >and > > > > > > > > not very healthy. And the biggy, time with family that the >slower > > > > >methods > > > > > > > > of travel eat up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree conservation is something to go after, but > > >tele-confrencing > > > > >not > > > > > > > > travel should be used more. If travel is really necessary, >the > > >planes > > > > >do > > > > > > > > have saving to offer sometimes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bright Blessings, > > > > > > > > Kim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 12:15 AM 5/6/2004, you wrote: > > > > > > > > >Hi Lyle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >What I am saying is that it is socially irresponsible to >promote > > > > > > > > >biofuels without at least an equal effort to promote a > > >SIGNIFICANT > > > > > > > > >reduction in consumption on the order of 1/5th the current > > >amount, > > > > > > > > >BY ALL OF US. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >For example, Jet Air Travel. I am amazed at the number of > > >so-called > > > > > > > > >environmentalists that refuse to give up this particular bad > > >habit. > > > > > > > > >Here we have an industry subsidized with over 18 times the >amount > > > > > > > > >allowed for super efficient train travel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Average BTU consumed Per Passenger mile by mode of travel: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >SUV: 4,591 > > > > > > > > >Air: 4,123 > > > > > > > > >Bus: 3,729 > > > > > > > > >Car: 3,672 > > > > > > > > >Train: 2,138 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Source: Bureau of Transportation Statistics > > > > > > > > >http://199.79.179.77/publications/nts/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Another example, folks insist on racing from red light to red > > >light > > > > > > > > >as fast as possible, and when on highways and freeways >routinely > > > > > > > > >speed 20 to 30 mph above posted speed limits. The cops have >given > > >up > > > > > > > > >trying to enforce speed limits (a whole other rant) so the >race > > >is > > > > > > > > >on. Now everyone knows the faster one goes the more fuel is > > > > > > > > >consumed, yet bring up the idea of restoring the 55 MPH speed > > >limit, > > > > > > > > >and enforcing existing speed limits, and watch the so-called > > > > > > > > >environmentalists scurry for cover like roaches when the >lights > > >come > > > > > > > > >on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This one simple measure could reduce consumption, emmissions >& > > > > > > > > >reliance on imported oil 20% to 50%! Visit the Drive 55 > > >Conservation > > > > > > > > >website to read several reports and articles in support of >this > > > > > > > > >claim: http://drive55.org/pn/index.php > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >So, all that said, and seeing as you "fundamentally agree" >with > > > > > > > > >my "conservation message" - what commitments are you prepared >to > > > > > > > > >make to reduce your personal consumption of energy? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I refuse to fly in jet airplanes now. I plan better and stick >to > > > > > > > > >surface transportation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >When I drive my 78 300D, I obey speed limits, rarely >exceeding 55 > > > > > > > > >MPH. By staying in the right lane I have found this very easy >as > > > > > > > > >that is the maximum for trucks here in California. Guess >what, > > > > > > > > >McDonalds BRAGS about sticking to 55 MPH with stickers on >their > > > > > > > > >trucks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I have replaced every light bulb in my home with 13 watt > > > > > > > > >flourescents and installed dual pane windows among the >ongoing > > > > > > > > >efforts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I ride my bike whenever possible for most trips to the store, > > >bank, > > > > > > > > >and other errands. I even take it on the light rail when I go > > > > > > > > >downtown. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >When I shop I pay close attention to the source of the >products I > > > > > > > > >buy, and always choose locally produced goods if possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I share this message with everyone I meet, along with the > > > > > > > > >information I have about cellulosic ethanol, biodiesel, and >other > > > > > > > > >types of biofuel as a PART of the equation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I will say this very plainly again now: It is socially > > >irresponsible > > > > > > > > >to promote biofuels without AT LEAST an equal effort made to > > >promote > > > > > > > > >conservation. The offense is compounded when someone claiming > > > > > > > > >concern for the environment refuses to acknowledge this in >their > > >own > > > > > > > > >life, and joins in the funding of petroleum warlords. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Peace, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Tim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Lyle Estill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Tim, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I fundamentally agree with your conservation message, and >your > > > > > > > > >mantra > > > > > > > > > > of social responsibility and sustainability, > > > > > > > > > > but I think questioning feedstock capacities at this point >is > > >a > > > > > > > > >straw > > > > > > > > > > argument. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saying we can't grow enough to meet our fuel needs is a >little > > > > > > > > >like > > > > > > > > > > saying we shouldn't make electricity from wind--after all, >the > > > > > > > > >wind > > > > > > > > > > doesn't always blow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lyle Estill > > > > > > > > > > V.P., Stuff > > > > > > > > > > Piedmont Biofuels > > > > > > > > > > www.biofuels.coop > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > > > > > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Biofuels list archives: > > > > > > > > >http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > > > > > > > > >To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > > > > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! 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Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Biofuels list archives: >http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! 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