Yeah -- I think that part of it is that people are used to seeing really ugly solar thermal installations put in during the 80's, and not much has been installed here since then. And then they think that solar thermal is old technology that has been superceded by PV. Not knowing the different between electricity and hot water helps... one guy I talked to actually thought that his solar thermal panels stored sunlight somehow, and didn't actually have a clue that they heated water up. He wanted them taken down because they came with the house and he didn't want solar any more.... great thinking since natural gas prices keep jumping up here...
On 4/27/06, Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Zeke, > > Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use, > I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where > you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. . Normal > thermal solar panels have 35-40% efficiency. A very good and cost > effective way to use solar. Thermal solar for hot water will pay for > itself in 3 to 5 years and heating around 5 to 8 years. Compared this > to PV that are more around 15 - 20 years. > > The normally used PV cells have 8-12% efficiency, even if you can get > very expensive and less used cells that have up to 35% efficiency. > > Hakan > > > At 18:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: > >If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal? > >That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and > >can easily achieve the temperatures required. > > > >On 4/27/06, Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places > > > electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. > > > Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small > > > fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% > > > numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude > > > burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite > > > significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is > > > generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like > > > nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best > > > option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a > > > surplus > > > watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to > > my reactor > > > so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to > > > determine > > > the viability of running it from a PV system. > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > > Hakan Falk wrote: > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% > > > efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% > > > efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 > > > times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the > > > efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the > > > power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, > > > but we are not there yet. > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically > > > 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I > > > meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not > > > without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your > > > emissions from burning?? > > > > > > J > > > > > > Hakan Falk wrote: > > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity > > > production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the > > > electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I > > > would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge > > > and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because > > > now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does > > > however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat > > > with oil, than with electricity. > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat > > > or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more > > > efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old > > > mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a > > > manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale > > > about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is > > > a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as > > > close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be > > > careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an > > > area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use > > > several low density heaters to speed things up. > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > Jason & Katie wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil > > > solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out? > > > thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my > > > grandma was a kid. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Ryan Pope" <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: > > > <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org><biofuel@sustainablelists.org> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM > > > Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO > > > that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of > > > heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP. > > > > > > Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this > > > further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is > > > variations on heating and settling. > > > > > > If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the > > > oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of > > > water > > > tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that > > > will > > > then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media. > > > > > > An example video can be seen at > > > > > <http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm>http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm > > > > > > Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Ryan Pope > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to > > > get there! > > > > > <http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement>http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > > > <http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > > <http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > > messages): > > > > > <http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > -- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release Date: 4/25/2006 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > > > <http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > > <http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives > > > (50,000 messages): > > > > > <http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > > <http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > > messages): > > > > > <http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > > <http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > > messages): > > > > > <http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > > messages): > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > > messages): > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > > messages): > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Biofuel mailing list > >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
