Hi,Well, computers are the part of the whole system, but specific subjects have their own merrits. First, one can not learn computer without having basic English language skills. Despite the availability of the Hindi softwares, I see no specific push by the government to make it more usable. Even if one argues to learn it the Hindi way, most of the time he would find being end up useing "English software" for various tasks. We don't yet have a very reliable Hindi OCR available despite of various efforts. Projects come and go with much hipe from the government but end up dead most of the time. Now, how many English medium schools are there in India for VI? Perhaps 1 or 2. Are they sufficient? No! How could we few fortunates expect from everyone in the VI community to come on board Access India and join this debate? George sir is right! Time has come for the government and the NGOs to make the required changes in the education system decisively and swiftly.
Satguru. On 8/17/2022 2:39 PM, Amena Kanchwala wrote:
Hi all,It is a wonderful conversation going on. I will still support making the examination software accessible with the screen readers, and enabling visually impaired candidates appear in their exams independently. If this happens, then the people who don’t know how to operate computers will start learning computers in order to get the job. People will start learning maths and reasoning. Training centres will also start teaching the same. There will be competition between visually impaired candidates only. Currently, no one wants to give their efforts, because they think that all their efforts will go in vain if they have to compete with sighted scribes. People like us have our own constraints. Even the well prepared VI Candidate cannot compete with the well prepared sighted scribe. I have seen the SBI exam cut off for VI candidates going higher than that of sighted candidates. This is just because of highly paid scribes. And because of this, even the genuine VI candidates stop preparing, and endup entering into the vicious cycle of scribe business.And yes, I feel that it is difficult to do strict invigilation at all the places in the similar manner. Candidates and scribes can use the code words to tell the correct answer. Also, at some places invigilators can be polite. It depends on the person.Giving the exams independently will give them confidence. They will start giving the effort for the same, and can make themselves capable for the applied position. Few months ago, I gave a US based online exam independently, and trust me I feel good after clearing the same.All of us just need to change our mindset. Thanks and regards, AmeOn Wed, Aug 17, 2022 at 2:16 PM Tanmay Srivastava <[email protected]> wrote:Hi all, Extremely sorry for such a long mail. Earlier, I was not thinking to give my opinion on this issue but, satguru ji's mail compelled me to talk about it. There are a few things which needs to be addressed. Firstly, why there is no separate ministry for people with disabilities? In other words, why MSJE is running department of empowerment of persons with disabilities? It is quite understandable that, when a ministry has so many departments then they set work on a priority basis. Secondly, why MSJE deals with special schools, I mean if education ministry takes charge of special schools then they can do a lot to enhance the entire special education system. Last but not the least, satguru ji I agree with you 100% but, same thing goes with computer as well. I remember, when we were in 11th standard, we had to give an undertaking to pursue computer as an additional subject. According to which, school will not be liable in case of any mishappening. School can afford well experienced computer teachers but, they left us with a computer instructer who did not have any experience to teach computer in 11th and 12th standard to a totally blind person, however it is important to mention that, she tried her best to get the result. On Wed, 17 Aug, 2022, 11:08 am Satguru Rathi, <[email protected]> wrote: Well said! There are schools which teach Maths upto class 8th only and untill recently, few counted schools tought it upto 10th. How one expects from a blind candidate who has studied Maths till class 8th and was never even told in school about something called "Reasoning"! How would he solve such questions? Even if some fortunate one gets enrolled in some coatching, will he be able to understand all those concepts at par with his sighted pears? We must first focus on strengthning our education system. Best. On 8/16/2022 7:31 PM, Pinkesh Tailor wrote:-- Disclaimer:Firstly the examination must be made visually impaired friendly. We are just been accommodated for examination which are meant for sighted people. Just giving some extra time, exemption from tables and graphical questions etc is not going to make any sense. And the fundamental issues remains unanswered, so as to how the special schools can trained visually impaired on logic, math which do not include visual graph or on tactile based questions at the primary and secondary schooling age. Some or many of us may be fortunate enough to have inclusive education, or having a good family status along with support system. What about the unfortunates, should they die because of this? Until these persisting issues in relation to the education system for visually impaired do not get resolved, I suggest that organizations must frame interview based verbal discussion, such as testing the candidates on various parameters such as psychometric, reasoning, general affairs, basics of computing with screan readerrs, English/Hindi reading and writing skill, mathematical ability etc. Despite of all the efforts put on by our community for reservation in employment, the companies are still lagging in achieving full Vacancy. This is some where a result of disguised discrimination in the public sector organizations, and even in general the big private sector employers are willing to recruit only those visually impaired who have spent a lots of money on education / higher education. So who bothers about the unfortunates and economically backward blind candidates? On 8/16/22, Sandesh HR<[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote:Hi friends, Kethan said rightly. Extremely sorry I request you all read long e-mail. strengthen Fundamentally eligibility of candidate, selection and exam written format processes well. Present format also have issues like visualize and understand the journey of listen and write the public sector exam questions. scribe will read the question to vision impaired. Scribe takes one or two minute To read the instruction to screen reader users. Followed listener will listen give the answer one one or two minute. That means vision impaired completes one instruction almost 3 to 4 minutes. Out of 80 minutes if vision impaired follow he or she able to not more than 20 to 25 instructions. My view is strengthen the system. Make the exam screens accessible and user friendly (compatible with keyboard and low vision friendly)with screen reader If person has use digital device to write the exam on their own Insite is person with vision impaired join banking and other public sector jobs without knowing computer spelling and mobility knowledge. Present government system is some of vision impaired join the government jobs without require knowledge and skills. Therefore public sector changing their perception about vision impaired hiring. More towards functional low vision. After candidate's hiring organization approachs subject mater experts to spend exstra money to train the vision impaired candidates. Therefore bank put the pressure on facilitators teach all vision impaired employees in less amount of 100 hours. Financial burden government sectors and corporate sectors as well. Learner feels Burdon and pressure to learn from typing to internet, My view is need to emphasize our community before taking the exams improve computer, spelling, English mobility efficiency and process discipline. Exam duration has to increase on reality wise. Example: screen reader user has to attend the 100 questions in 80 minutes. Screen reader user has to answer less than almost 30 to 40 seconds. He or she has to understand the layout of window, followed by comprehend the screen reader accent, need to decide efficiently use keyboard commands to use to quickly complete the exam. Comprehend the questions, he or she has to listen screen reader key command twice or trice less than 30 seconds. If screen reader user taking 90 seconds to solve one question, that means before apply government exams need to ask our self am I efficient? If any person feels need to improve should take action to become excellent on computer, English, competitive exams. Lot of work involves back ground all the coaching center syllabus has to change. Need to do the capacity building the coaching center faculties teach reasoning, aptitude and English. One more glitch will begin again scribe banks as well if we recommends. Example: few states very difficult get scribe who is good at reading english and Hindi. Since government attend the exam in Hindi still scribes unable to read English properly. My view is all stake holders together work make our community good in society and solve the exam Let us do retrospection rather than blame the scribes. Action VS reaction. I have felt to share my incite and I am not against views . On 8/16/22, Ketan Kothari<[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote:Hi Friends, Although the problems mentioned in the article are true to some extent, the blind community is also not without blame. Also, there are some glaring inconsistencies in the news item and I wonder why this coaching institute is not reported to police? I would have been happy if there were by-line give in the article. In most cases, VI people don't wish to read and that is a fact which we must accept. That may be true for even the sighted folks but in our case, the options of gaining knowledge are fewer. For most exams there is a lot of material avaiable but one needs to search carefully. Best, Ketan On 14/08/2022, Minar Singh<[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote:From Charging Lakhs to Offering Proxy Candidates, Is Exam 'Scribe Service' Turning Into 'Business'? New Delhi, India Scribes charge from Rs 2,000 to rs 5 lakh for exam (Representational Image) Scribes charge from Rs 2,000 to rs 5 lakh for exam (Representational Image) Lack of scribes for candidates with visual impairment has led to a rampant illegal ‘scribe business’ across the country, activists demand national scribe banks. Help offered to visually impaired students in form of scribes is turning into a business, where on one hand deserving students find it difficult to get a scribe, on the other hand, many ‘coaching institutes’ offer scribes as ‘proxy’ candidates to solve papers on behalf of students in exchange for lakhs of rupees. Depending on the exams, several visually impaired candidates have reportedly been asked anywhere from Rs 1 lakh to 5 lakh from scribes. The availability of scribes in exchange for a large amount of money has made seeking payments in return for helping in exams an unsaid norm. This puts candidates, especially those from low-income backgrounds at a disadvantage. In 2021, a 31-year-old person with visual impairment, Satvir Jogi, had to miss his exam as he failed to find a scribe despite multiple attempts. For Jogi, who has been applying for several government exams in the last few years, arranging a scribe has always been a challenge. “Due to a paucity of reading material for visually impaired candidates — online and in physical form — even the preparation for an exam is more difficult when compared to visually-abled candidates. To top it off, we have the biggest challenge of finding scribes. How are these exams fair and equal for us?” says Jogi. He adds, “I have given from Rs 1,000 to Rs 2,000 on multiple occasions to scribes to write my paper. If a visually impaired candidate is lucky, then they sometimes get a volunteer scribe on time, otherwise, scribes demand money as per their wish for appearing for exams.” SCRIBES ALSO BEING USED AS PROXY CANDIDATES Lack of resources and limited vacancies for the visually impaired has made many take the illegal route as well. SK Singh, a rights activist for people with visual impairment and secretary of the National Association for the Blind, claimed that the scribe business is an open secret now. It stems from a lack of scribe resources and other challenges, including not enough material to prepare for exams and fewer job vacancies for people with visual impairment. They demand anywhere from Rs 2,000 to just appear for the exam to Rs 5 lakh to clear it. With the demand for more money, scribes also give services to prepare on the behalf of the candidate and appear for the exam, alleged SK Singh, a rights activist for people with visual impairment and secretary of the National Association for the Blind. “Unemployment rates are at an all-time high and everyone wants to secure a job. Several scribes have found this opportunity to make money out of it. They demand anywhere from Rs 2,000 to just appear for the exam to Rs 5 lakh to clear it. With the demand for more money, scribes also give services to prepare on the behalf of the candidate and appear for the exam.” ‘WITH OUR SCRIBES DON’T WORRY ABOUT PASSING EXAM’ To get to know some of the ‘proxy scribes’, News18 tried to contact a few of them. One such person, who runs a coaching center in Mumbai, told News18.com, “We have an academy. You only have to give us the syllabus and make us meet the candidate. We are quite experienced at it, so you don’t have to worry about passing the exam.” He said, from teachers to students his academy has scribes candidates of all ages and for various exams. Speaking about the fee charged for being the scribe, he said it depends on the exam. “While the fee is less for the non-technical exams, the fee will be more for technical exams. But don’t worry about the fee, we have an installment system also. A candidate can pay even after they get a job,” he said. ‘NO COMPLAINTS RECEIVED OF SCRIBE BUSINESS’ The authorities, however, claim to not be aware of any ‘scribe business’ going on in exams. When News18 contacted the Department of Empowerment of Persons with Disabilities, which is under the Ministry of Social Justice & Empowerment, an official, on condition of anonymity, said, “Till now we have not received any complaints of ‘scribe business’." “In the future, however, if we get any such complaints we will inquire about it. Meanwhile, if there are reports of policy being misused, then the state government can inquire into it.” The official added, “The policy is made for the betterment of the candidates, but there are people who might take advantage of the loophole, but there are bodies to look into it.” LACK OF CONSENSUS AMONG AUTHORITIES OVER QUALIFICATION, AVAILABILITY OF SCRIBE The authorities have allegedly also failed to come to a consensus about implementing guidelines for availing of scribe facilities. While the guidelines issued by the Ministry of Social Justice and Employment published the Guidelines for Persons with Benchmark Disabilities in August 2018 give candidates the option to either bring their own scribes or request one from the exam-conducting body, in many cases authorities deny candidates to bring their own scribe. In the recently held TS TET exam, many candidates were uncertain till hours before exams whether or not they will get a scribe. Candidates from different districts of Telangana said that their admit cards mentioned that candidates with 40 per cent disability can avail scribes, however, there was no mention if they will be provided with a scribe by the exam conducting body or if the students can get their own scribe for the exam. The confusion escalated among the candidates when the TSTET helpdesk set up in different districts of the State provided mixed information to the candidates. News18 tried to call some of the district helpdesk numbers to verify the claims. An operator from the Hyderabad helpdesk said that candidates will have to go to the exam centre a day before the exams to inform the administration that they require a scribe and then they will be allocated a scribe. Meanwhile, the Khammam helpdesk said the candidates can get their scribes but they have to be only Class 9 qualified. However, Hyderabad’s helpdesk claimed that candidates cannot get their scribe and only the exam-conducting body (Department of School Education) will provide a scribe to candidates with disabilities. The TET convenor Radha Reddy denied the claims of confusion among the candidates. She told New18, “There should be no confusion among the candidates as these exams happen every year and candidates should know that students cannot get their own scribes. Those who fit the disability criteria will be provided with a scribe at the exam center." While guidelines by Ministry clearly state that candidates have option of bringing own scribe to seeking one from exam conducting bodies, rules often change at state-level. On informing the qualifications of scribes TSTET convenor said that scribes will only be class 9 pass and inter-pass. The guidelines issued by Ministry, however, suggest that scribes should not be more than the minimum qualification criteria of the examination. However, the qualification of the scribe/reader should always be matric or above. Similar incidents of confusion over the scribes’ availability and qualification are reported in multiple educational and recruitment exams. DEMAND FOR A NATIONAL, STATE SCRIBE POOL Activists have been demanding the government create scribe banks so that any examinee can readily avail of certified scribes on a voluntary basis. Under a watch, this can also put a stop to proxy candidate business. Activists cite the lack of Central or State-regulated scribe pools, which can be accessed by anyone, to the burgeoning illegal scribe business. To add to their woes, guidelines related to scribes are unclear across the country. SK Singh, says, “The government had come up with the qualification guidelines to curb exam malpractices, but that is only working against students. There can be multiple ways to curb malpractices. Why is the onus not on the invigilators to check if the candidate is using the help of their scribe or not? Putting a cap on the scribe’s qualification curbs visually impaired and other candidates with disabilities to appear for exams.” The General Secretary of the National Platform for the Rights of the Disabled, Muralidharan, said that these norms would only make it more difficult for the candidates to find a scribe. He said, “If a national and state scribe bank will be available, this will automatically curb such practices.” Founder of the All India Conference of the Blind, J L Paul, said, “Under Rights of Persons with Disabilities Act, 2016, all visually impaired people have the right to education and the government should make sure that they get it. There are no proper efforts made by the government to make sure that all visually impaired students get a scribe. For this, a national and a state scribe bank will be very beneficial.” Calling the scribe qualification law draconian, another visually impaired student Animesh, who has done his MA in International Relations from Christ University Bangalore, said, “The government has these rules to avoid malpractice but at the same time our infrastructure is not that well developed. So first the government should develop a network and then come up with such guidelines. Like Ola and Uber, there should be online scribe pool apps through which we can check the scribe’s qualifications and practise with them.” This story is produced as part of the Laadli Media Fellowship 2022 https://www.news18.com/news/education-career/form-charging-lakhs-to-offering-proxy-candidates-is-exam-scribe-service-turning-into-business-5624815.html -- What’s most important is to put the person first, the disability second Because we all are people first. -- Disclaimer: 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the thinking of the person sending the mail and AI in no way relates itself to its veracity; 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the mails sent through this mailing list.. Search for old postings at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "AccessIndia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/accessindia.org.in/d/msgid/accessindia/CALLUjUbcHsdEuHurHyVhACdHATuLg6%2Brmfqso3AnJ2WZHBUjdA%40mail.gmail.com.-- Ketan Kothari Phone: [r] 02228283281, Cell: +919987550614 +917021054612 Facebook:facebook.com/muktaketan <http://facebook.com/muktaketan> Twitter: @muktaketan Skype ID: Ketan3333 -- Disclaimer: 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the thinking of the person sending the mail and AI in no way relates itself to its veracity; 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the mails sent through this mailing list.. Search for old postings at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "AccessIndia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/accessindia.org.in/d/msgid/accessindia/CAC4kLWXUPyrwhNd39sxgTGEw%2BH_c%2BHL9Crv_zu-cqRnpYZq-%3Dw%40mail.gmail.com.-- With Regards Sandesh HR -- Disclaimer: 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the thinking of the person sending the mail and AI in no way relates itself to its veracity; 2. 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