Hi Bob
> I can not get past the concept that my "life's course" if you will, is > predetermined. Yes, it is predetermined in the sense that you are (apparently) making choices. The choices that are, apparently, available to you.But you do not have any control over what will happen in the next second or moment. You appear to be in charge of your life, but, "really" you are not. > If that is the case, every choice I think I am making would have to be > predetermined. No. The choice "you" (Bob) make is your, apparent, choice. I.e. Today, you may decide that a nice trip to seaside would be nice. Between, the beaches of Florida and California, you decide in favour of Florida. You also decide that the departure date will be tomorrow and not another day. However, where would your plans go if tomorrow before departure i.e. an earthquake happens in Florida, or terrorists put a bomb in a USA airport or a tornado hits the coast? Or, what if your wife tells you that she does not want to go and you, in order not to upset her, decide against leaving for Florida? There can be a myriad of causes and events influencing and changing your (apparent) decision can be happening (environmentally or genetically, internal or external). So, how "real" was your decision? Are you really in control of your life? Even the "thought" (as in the result of brain, neurons activity) is predetermined. I.e. it has been pre-thought and you only appear to be having a thought. > Meaning, I'm not making a choice, I'm following suit. You are making the choice. A choice between the ones that are apparently available to you. You also appear to be following suit. And, it has nothing to do with your "will" or God's "will", things are the way they are... ... > Takes a lot of responsibility off of one's shoulders. It will take some pressure off the shoulders of your self but it will not take off the responsibility you have in respect of society as a whole. You will still have to respond to society for the good or the bad of your actions. I hope this helps.. Kali On Aug 2, 9:00 pm, Bob1357 <[email protected]> wrote: > I need somebody to explain this to me like I am an idiot that I am. > Marcus I completely understand what you saying your last post. > I can not get past the concept that my "life's course" if you will, is > predetermined. > If that is the case, every choice I think I am making would have to be > predetermined. > Meaning, I'm not making a choice, I'm following suit. > Meaning everything that is happening, has happened or will happen is > exactly the way it is, was and will suppose to be. > Takes a lot of responsibility off of one's shoulders. > Almost too much. > Just having a hard time buying into that .......... so I don't. > At least not at this point in my life. > > On Aug 2, 6:07 am, Rodger <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > We come to know the true self by knowing no other. > > > On Aug 2, 5:49 am, Marcus <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > . > > > > “Can the flying fragment deviate from its path of trajectory?” > > > > No …………………….. the flying fragment displays a predetermined path, or > > > trajectory. > > > > The question is (given this illusion) is are we flying fragments of > > > the whole. > > > In my opinion I would say yes. Does that imply we follow > > > predetermined paths I would again say yes. Free will is > > > indicative to the illusion. Our blends of strengths and weakness > > > predetermines our reactions to circumstance. These circumstance > > > enable our behaviour patterns. > > > I know it’s a real mind bender but :---- we journey predestine > > > paths with defaults settings to suit. If you said “well I am going > > > to live in a cave for the rest of my life” to avoid your predetermined > > > path then even this is part of the predetermination. > > > So look …….. if free will is also part of the illusion, then what > > > ever you choose is destiny at play. The freedom from karma is only > > > to see it for what it is. > > > To accept and flow with nature. > > > > This is why happiness and unhappiness ultimately are the same. This > > > is why we can say “I am “ everything and nothing at the same > > > time. > > > This is how we come to know the true self. > > > > Only then does inner peace fill your day ……………………….. a fragment of > > > the divine. > > > > . > > > > On Aug 2, 11:26 am, Rodger <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Thank you,Marcus. > > > > > "We observe this shifting...." > > > > > The observation of this shifting is the shifting of this observer. > > > > > "We have to accept the responsibility..." > > > > > Can the observer accept what is not observed? > > > > > Can the flying fragment deviate from its path of trajectory? > > > > > On Aug 2, 3:33 am, Marcus <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > . > > > > > > Thanks Rodger, > > > > > > “that which has said 'our illusions'...evolves.” > > > > > > Yes ….. defiantly. Everything manifest in this momentary illusion, > > > > > shifts from a previous momentary illusion. We observe this shifting, > > > > > apply purpose and label it as evolution. And rightly so. The > > > > > illusion of Marcus had evolved. The illusion of Rodger has > > > > > evolved. The time spans and rate of change are different. The sun > > > > > flowers growing in my garden have blossomed and are now begining to > > > > > die. This is physical law of growth and decay which binds the earth > > > > > plains of man. This in mind. We must also accept that as humans we > > > > > are not just physical beings. Inside each one of us (even > > > > > Roomsearching) is a connection to a deeper, richer and infinite > > > > > dimension. Very different to the physical earth plan, the deeper > > > > > element of our illusions gives rise to things intangible, like love, > > > > > beauty, anger, past, future, Poetry, philosophy, God and fraternity. > > > > > These things are a daily experience for us all. Intangible, yet just > > > > > as real to the individual as awareness itself. > > > > > > We all dream, think, hope. Given that we ourselves create these > > > > > experiences and then live them, we have to accept the responsibility > > > > > of being. These illusions are where we live. The illusion of > > > > > evolution is just as actual as the illusion of yesterday. > > > > > > In opinion …………… Spiritual knowledge is uncovered when one simpley > > > > > sees the truth of this apparent contradiction. We are everything > > > > > that can exist within an illusion. We are it’s creator. Therefore > > > > > solely responsible for our expriance of each moment. > > > > > > The deeper side of our awareness wants to enjoy being human. We are > > > > > driven by the urge to enjoy this moment. Yet many prefer to torture > > > > > themselves and others by denying peace, beauty and love for themselves > > > > > and others. They create their Hell then live in it, to use an old > > > > > metaphor. > > > > > > It’s all apparent parts of the whole, the whole knows what it’s doing > > > > > even if we don’t. > > > > > > Faith is a great strength ……………. > > > > > > . > > > > > > On Jul 30, 5:52 pm, Rodger <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Marcus, > > > > > > whether it is consciousness,spirit,or bozo...that which has said > > > > > > 'our > > > > > > illusions'...evolves.And,even though evolving,is never not that.(The > > > > > > more things change the more they stay the same.)Or would you > > > > > > disagree > > > > > > with that? > > > > > > > On Jul 30, 9:51 am, Marcus <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > “what is society but evolving spirit...which is alone, naturally?” > > > > > > > > But “spirit” as a universal non-dual unlimited consciousness has > > > > > > > no > > > > > > > evolution. It is. It’s our illusions of consciousness which > > > > > > > shift, > > > > > > > change, perhaps evolve. > > > > > > > > I see us as a connection between the illusion of self and thee > > > > > > > universal whole which is everything in unity. (Advaita) We can > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > surmise from these view-points of the self, and yet. In brief > > > > > > > moments we can also see/feel the expanse of the whole. > > > > > > > Metaphorically, We are the union of a angel and a beast. A > > > > > > > supposed > > > > > > > blend of two opposing realms of awareness. Each allegedly to > > > > > > > teach > > > > > > > the other some sort of lesson. These are old metaphors but none > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > less, very useful in trying to get your head around the human > > > > > > > being > > > > > > > concept. > > > > > > > > Almost as if when the beast side of our being is the most robust > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > the spiritual side steps back and lets the beast take charge. > > > > > > > But > > > > > > > eventually the beast becomes broken and the spirit steps forward > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > lift and inspire the being and take charge of the beast. > > > > > > > > The great and noble surrender of the ego …………………… or > > > > > > > crucifixion of > > > > > > > the old self, to make way for the new self. > > > > > > > > As you see. These are not new ideas. > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > On Jul 30, 3:03 pm, Rodger <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Marcus.I see what you're saying. > > > > > > > > Should 'spiritual'...or spirit...be thought of as > > > > > > > > awareness,consciousness,brahman,the absolute,thought,or what > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > you...even bozo...all knowledge is spiritual.One could > > > > > > > > say,spirit > > > > > > > > can't be defined,does the defining...spirit can't be > > > > > > > > created,does the > > > > > > > > creating,etc..One is aware of spirit by means of being the aware > > > > > > > > spirit...the spirit which is aware...on and on. > > > > > > > > As far as society evolving...what is society but evolving > > > > > > > > spirit...which is alone,naturally? > > > > > > > > > On Jul 30, 8:36 am, Marcus <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > “might be called 'ordinary horse sense'?” > > > > > > > > > > I feel sure “spiritual knowledge” is very basic to our > > > > > > > > > being. It > > > > > > > > > is ordinary horse sense. Its just that society has evolved > > > > > > > > > in such a > > > > > > > > > way that “ordinary horse sense” has been overlaid with a > > > > > > > > > need to > > > > > > > > > comply to the raining social order. Each generation is > > > > > > > > > systematically groomed to conform and in doing so, we loose > > > > > > > > > sight of > > > > > > > > > our “ordinary horse sense” of spiritual knowledge. > > > > > > > > > I am convinced that if left alone to evolve naturally, most > > > > > > > > > humans > > > > > > > > > would have a much greater spiritual knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > This whole enlightenment gig is really just trying to undo the > > > > > > > > > centuries of dogma and conditioning of the masses. > > > > > > > > > > In truth ………… spiritual knowledge is more ordinary sense than > > > > > > > > > capitalism, consumerism or religion. > > > > > > > > > > We strive to return to our true nature …………………….. break > > > > > > > > > free …….. > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > On Jul 30, 1:49 pm, Rodger <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Or do you think I am just showing off? > > > > > > > > > > Yes or no? > > > > > > > > > > Either way,would that be a form of spiritual knowledge? > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 30, 7:46 am, Rodger <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > 'Only You' is an old song sung by a group called the > > > > > > > > > > > Platters.From the > > > > > > > > > > > late 50's I think.Maybe early 60's.Either way,could this > > > > > > > > > > > be a > > > > > > > > > > > definition of spiritual knowledge? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 30, 6:32 am, Rodger <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok...so only you is being asked.Will only you answer > > > > > > > > > > > > the question?Only > > > > > > > > > > > > you can keep it to a simple yes or no,if only you > > > > > > > > > > > > prefers. > > > > > > > > > > > > :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 30, 6:24 am, > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
