Cheerskep gave his reasons for not liking Red.  His are valid reasons because 
they refer to quality standards form or I should say a set of conventions that 
have been long established even though they're recognized by an ever smaller 
group.  That does not invalidate the play but it does say why Cheerskep cannot 
regard the whole work as aesthetically pleasing for him.  Thierry deDuve speaks 
about this as the "pact" between the artist and his audience.  When the artist 
breaks the pact then he loses that audience and must address another audience 
(and the one he breaks from may indeed becomes a candidate for a new pact).  
deDuve and others say tat contemporary art (modernist art) does not address any 
specific audience because anything can be art.  Thus the process of art itself 
becomes the surrogate audience and becoming more and more reductive and 
negative (exclusionary) (leading to his complaint against Greenberg, 
essentially his only complaint).  

The cautionary fear that any proscriptive judgment may imitate the philistine 
judgments in the 19C is unfounded because then there were solid conventions in 
place that had been agreed to by both artists and their audience (the "pact") 
and now there are no solid conventions because anything can be art.  So we are 
left to choose one set of conventions or another from many at hand.  Every form 
of art now has its little set of  conventions and for each there is an audience 
and this plurality is far more real now than it was in the era of the Salons, 
official art, and the academies.  That's why it's impossible to be avant garde 
today.  There is no "front" to attack, no "leading edge" no shock to overturn 
set conventions.  There are only different ways to address the past, to point 
to some practices, to extend them or to critique them.  Those who think they 
are avant-garde are, according to deDuve and Greenberg, if I understand them, 
are involved in
 avant-gardism, a sort of psuedo re-enactment of the past-avant garde and that 
is the signal of kitsch.

>From what I've read about Red, it is not avant-gardism and thus not kitsch 
>(despite the general audience largely unfamiliar with historical modernism and 
>saturated instead with kitsch tastes).  The reason being that the play 
>symbolizes the interiority of the artist and the paradoxical-- paranoid, 
>frantic, bipolar  -- subjective intellectual dialogue that underlies the 
>creative process. Rothko is a good choice for this interior investigation 
>because while an intellectual, a great traditionalist, an emotional wreck and 
>finally a suicide, he was not a delusional crazy drunk like Pollock, an 
>alcoholically altered state of mind that forever locks us out from the real 
>artist. 

In order for Cheerskep, or any of us,  to have a genuine aesthetic experience 
he must first experience the work intuitively -- to have judged it intuitively, 
to be aware of liking in and of itself, without regard to utility, it before he 
recognizes why (according to Kant), but he can't do that unless its conventions 
(formal symbolic, etc.) conform, generally if not specifically, to his own.

I think Thierry deDuve has done a lot to rescue the best of Greenberg, note his 
weaknesses, all the while revealing his own acute perceptions of theory, 
practice, and audience.
wc 




----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Brady <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, April 7, 2010 3:21:37 PM
Subject: Re: "What is happening during an 'a.e.'?"

> But I felt RED as a play was bad, a narrative failure. It lacked almost all
> the essential elements of storytelling. It was only ninety minutes, but it
> seemed twenty minutes too long: an argument followed by a lecture followed
> by an argument followed by lecture and so-not-so-forth. The characters were
> vivid but not nearly three dimensional, there was no conflict, no hurdle to
> be gotten over. Perhaps if one came to it with a passion for Rothko his
angry
> rants about the "dissonance" between the Appollonian and Dionysian impulse
> would compel, but to me they felt like near-opaque hell-fire sermons by a
> nasty guy on a pulpit. It was not what I go to theater for.

I found this to be a telling remark, Cheerskep. Your complaint is that the
play does not present things as you expected to find them. How does one go
about determining whether the work is defective or that it is so outside the
expected parameters that the paradigm one uses to frame and interpret the work
fails or leads to a judgment like yours, that it is a failure? Is this a new
kind of dramatic presentation, a new paradigm? or just a tendentious
sermonizing by declaimers on stage?

This reminds me of the criticism of early modern painting styles, which didn't
follow the academic rules of depicting scenes. The artists replied to their
critics: "Well, that's right. Our pictures do not depend on those criteria."



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Michael Brady

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