I do this all the time with my libertarian friends. I always preface a conversation talking about how libertarians are just statists in a pretty dress. Sometimes ill throw in a taxation is not theft for good measure. Then no matter where it goes I point out their ultimate goal is to be governed.
On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 1:18 PM <[email protected]> wrote: > I love arguing with my kids. I will pick any position or even swap sides > mid argument. Their spouses have finally figured out that I just love the > debate. But the main thing I get out of it is exposure the new ideas. > They get a dose of reality. One daughter in law refused to believe that > one could exist on $1000/month. They one of my sons informed her that he > lived on less than that for several years. Same daughter in law thought I > should be paying all my employees a minimum wage of $15. I told her that > most of my employees do make that or more, but entry level jobs would not > exist if they had to do so. Then she got on me for paying so low the > employees could not afford healthcare. I informed her that we do provide > health care. She stopped talking for a few minutes that afternoon... > > *From:* Brian Webster > *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2020 12:10 PM > *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT - political > > > I didn’t assume that you were Adam. I pose questions or viewpoints for the > wider audience. Too often I am seeing polarizing views all over from people > who have never stopped to quietly consider the other side or multiple sides > to an issue. Put the shoe on the other foot has been lost as a concept. The > instant gratification society has lost their ability to have a little pause > and consider mentality (part of getting old I guess). Whenever I have a > chance to politely discuss situations with others and pose some other > possibilities in a situation, most people will be courteous and say I guess > I had never considered that point, or I was not aware of that fact. When I > also listen to their perspective on the same topic it gives me other points > to think about that I may not have known or thought about. I am not one to > have any illusions that I can change a person’s beliefs or core values, but > I do try and at least get a person to pause and try to consider a different > viewpoint or facts. I have no aspirations or delusions that I can get > people to think the way I do or believe that I am right on any particular > topic. My upbringing and life experiences form a different outlook than any > other person and I believe every other person I meet has experienced life > in their own way that forms their own outlook. > > > > Wow I am sounding like some old coger rocking on the porch…….. > > > > Thank you, > > Brian Webster > > > > *From:* AF [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Adam Moffett > *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2020 1:49 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT - political > > > > I would definitely not approve of a CHAZ/CHOP type thing in my > neighborhood. I'm not sure what I would do about it. I suppose I'd > probably show up to their meetings and say bad things to them. Then they'd > call me a fascist or something. We'd have to see where it went from there. > > The executive order I referred to was signed by the president on June > 26th. It was titled “Protecting American Monuments, Memorials, and > Statues and Combating Recent Criminal Activity" > > I don't know what those federal agencies did in the absence of that > specific order. Maybe they waited for an order? > > Please don't think I'm outraged. Quite the opposite. I don't think > anything could possibly outrage me anymore because I'm sick and tired of > outrage. > > > > > > On 7/20/2020 1:32 PM, Brian Webster wrote: > > Is that all they are doing? I do not know and do not expect anyone who is not > directly involved in the activities to know at this stage, but it is very > plausible that they are doing what is within their authority. Speculation by > the media is not in itself reason either. Fact is people should do their due > diligence and try to find out their own facts. Leaving that job up to a > journalist and hanging your hat, opinion, and perception on a journalist > these days probably not the wisest plan of action. But if a person wants to > have an echo chamber opinion, they should go ahead and pick the media outlet > that supports their point of view and stick with them. All media outlets > these days have a major bias like we have never seen before. One side or the > other, doesn't matter. Journalistic integrity is not what it used to be yet > it would seem most of society is quick to question everything and everyone > except the media. > > > > I know that if I lived in this area I would expect my constitutional rights > to be protected as a citizen with freedom of movement in those neighborhoods > and have access to my place of business or residence. A government letting a > whole region of a city be taken over like what happened in Seattle is absurd. > That was an invasion and take over plain and simple. Protests are one thing, > occupying a place and keeping cops out and not having 100% agreement by all > those in the occupied area is nothing short than an act of war and at minimum > domestic terrorism. Plain and simple. If you do not believe that, seriously > ask yourself if you would be ok if that happened to you on your own property > or property you own for your place of business. That is a hostage/kidnap > situation. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of your own happiness has been > taken away. Blocking you from police, fire or EMS protection is shameful and > illegal. Any politician that does not look at things that way is a puppet and > hypocrite, especially when they have their own guards and security protecting > them. At least in Portland the Feds starting not to allow that to happen in > the Federal park or give them any more base of operations to try and > accomplish that in that city. The word "occupy" is always thrown around by > pacifists in a different context about our worldwide military presence than > how they support it for these types of protests, it's not any different in > definition on our own soil even if you do agree with the political position > or cause. No other person should be able to take control like that and deny > you the rights you are provided in this country. > > > > I guess my point is, don't let just one type of information intake form your > outrage. Speak to others that may have different input and knowledge (but > please do it in a civil way and with the intent to listen not just answer > back). This Portland situation likely started from just clearing the park and > then massive outrage flames were fanned based on people not realizing that > they were on federal land in the first place and those officers were there to > protect the property and enforce those laws. > > > > Executive orders......not a fan of them. They can easily be misused and > usually a plan of last resort when there is political deadlock. An executive > order that says protect federal property? I would expect that every federal > officer knows that is their job. Heck every military person knows that is > their job. The first general order of a sentry is "to take charge of this > post and all government property in view". Was it an actual executive order > issued or was it more of a memo with the president reminding people that is > what needs to be done. Rioting and tearing down statues and defacing federal > (and by default taxpayer) property seems very divisive at this point. Letting > things devolve to more than that when the group has "Occupy" in their name > and cause should be treated as such and not considered just a protest. Their > intent is stated in the name. > > > > Thank you, > > Brian Webster > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AF [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett > > Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 12:55 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - political > > > > It doesn't all stem from clearing a park. That might not be what you're > > trying to say, but it could be read that way. > > > > The reason people are pointing a finger at the current administration is > > there was an executive order signed a few weeks ago ordering federal > > agencies to protect federal property, and that seems to be a direct > > response to the ongoing protests. They can bring in this variety of > > agencies because the Homeland Security Act of 2002 allows them to > > deputize other federal agents to assist: > > https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/17/us/politics/federal-agents-portland-arrests.html > > > > So the justification is protecting federal property, but is that all > > they're doing? No political motivations of any kind here? And while I'm > > sure that they have the legal authority for all of this, isn't it ok to > > ask whether they should? > > > > > > > > On 7/20/2020 12:04 PM, Brian Webster wrote: > > In Portland part of the protest and occupy movement protesters were trying to > camp out in a FEDERAL PARK downtown. This attempt to occupy federal property > has not happened in other cities that I am aware of and hence the different > agencies involved. That Park director requested more federal law enforcement > help in getting the people off the park grounds and not allow them to camp > there. This was not a case of the black helicopters coming and federal > officers taking over local law enforcement authority from the locals. If was > Federal Law Enforcement protecting federal property. In ALL law enforcement > agencies it is not unusual for plain clothes officers, detectives etc. to > have unmarked vehicles and use them when making arrests. This is hardly > unusual police activity if you look at the whole picture. Local law > enforcement does this type of thing all of the time. If these federal > officers had identified people who committed a crime on federal property and > then fled, they are within their law enforcement powers to directly pursue > and apprehend them even if the apprehension is not on federal property. Local > and state officers have the same powers. It's not typically used but it's not > unheard of for say a police officer to pursue someone who they believe has > committed a felony and cross a state line. That officer is fully empowered to > make that arrest in the other state. It has happened many times and the laws > have been upheld to allow for this. There are also still the power to effect > a citizen's arrest as well. Nobody likes to do it because it gets messy > legally after the fact but that is still allowed in this country. > > > > Before people get outraged at what the press is telling them is happening, > they should take a step back and gather their own facts and knowledge and not > be so quick to accept some "experts" statements. You all know how bad a > journalist can butcher up a technical article on stuff we do and work with, > what makes us think they are any smarter in the field of law or medicine? > > > > https://kval.com/news/local/police-remove-occupy-portland-campers-from-park?fbclid=IwAR0dSQqKXj_ikwqmSfvMvvPtOVoFVhGjwrH126Lhiomx3iZXlxTUGtT2S7E > > > > "This morning, at request and at the lead of the US Federal Protective > Service, the Portland Police helped remove campers at Shrunk Plaza, which is > federal property across the street from Chapman Square," Adams wrote. "The > campers who were arrested - an estimated 8 to 10 people - at Shrunk Plaza > were detained by federal police and cited under US federal law. Initial > reports indicate arrests were completed in a peaceful manner." > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > Brian Webster > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AF [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof > > Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 11:41 AM > > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - political > > > > I don't think I'd like it if Obama had dispatched federal troops to > "Republican-led cities" claiming they are stupidly and conservatively run. > > > > It also doesn't make me comfortable having Ken Cuccinelli driving this. Not > a guy who should have the power to send troops to your city for political > reasons, or any reason. Andy Taylor would make him keep his one bullet in > his shirt pocket. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AF mailto:[email protected] On Behalf Of Larry Smith > > Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 10:20 AM > > To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:[email protected] > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - political > > > > The US Border Patrol is a part of the Immigration and Naturalization Service. > > > > -- > > Larry Smith > > [email protected] > > > > On Mon July 20 2020 10:14, Ken Hohhof wrote: > > I thought I read they admitted to being Customs & Border Patrol, at > > least in Portland. But yes other reports say that a force was > > assembled from various federal agencies so maybe also US Marshals. > > > > > > > > They have been using border patrol in questionable ways for awhile, > > like setting up roadblocks on highways hundreds of miles from any border. > > > > > > > > > > > > From: AF mailto:[email protected] On Behalf Of Bill Prince > > Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 9:56 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - political > > > > > > > > The National Guard is a state resource. I think he can request it, but > > I'm not sure he can command it. > > > > What I read, they were US Marshals, and other unidentified federal > > resources. > > > > bp > > <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com> > > > > > > On 7/20/2020 7:41 AM, [email protected] mailto:[email protected] wrote: > > > > Yeah, you gotta wonder what their orders were. > > > > Doesn’t a president normally activate the National Guard when extra > > help is needed? > > > > These guys were – what? Homeland Security? ICE? > > > > > > > > From: Jaime Solorza > > > > Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 8:35 AM > > > > To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > > > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - political > > > > > > > > Hitler tactics by Bunker Boy...there , I said it. > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jul 19, 2020, 2:49 PM <[email protected] > > mailto:[email protected] > > > wrote: > > > > Not trying to break lent, but I am lacking understanding. > > > > > > > > What are the young white kids rioting about in Portland? > > > > > > > > I am from Oregon, I remember protests in the 60s and 70s over Vietnam. > > I also remember a line of State Police walking through a park downtown > > and busting heads of those that did not clear out. Actually one of my > > first telco bosses had been one of those State Bull Cops. > > > > > > > > Are young white kids just aching for a chance at anarchy? I don’t get it. > > > > Misbehaving while trying to wrap some kind of noble cause around you > > is pretty childish. > > > > -- > > AF mailing list > > [email protected] mailto:[email protected] > > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > > > > _____ > > -- > > AF mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > -- > AF mailing list > [email protected] > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- > AF mailing list > [email protected] > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >
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