I completely agree with you on all those points josh. It's a stupid thing to do for many reasons, but being illegal is not one of those reasons.
I'm not picking a fight, just trying to clear the air about the legalities in regards to DPI rules to block or throttle a traffic type (such as VPN/SSL). a lot of folks don't understand that "reasonable network management" is protected by the FCC NN rules. -sean On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com> wrote: > Listen, at the end of the day you're consider penalizing the very people > who make it possible for you to operate, when in reality you should be > trying to find ways to get the government to stop handing out cruise ships > full of money to companies to continue doing the same old shit. > > People do not want UBB. Cable COs have been doing it for years to help > stifle competition (online streaming) away from their money maker (cable tv > + ad revenue). > > On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com> > wrote: > >> edit: s/can/can't/ >> >> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Because you can discriminate based on traffic type except in the case of >>> reasonable network management. Not to mention you will block every single >>> telework user in the process, along with many other types of content riding >>> on that tunnel. >>> >>> I'll say this, I would not be the one to want to try an explain "I block >>> VPNs" to the FCC. You can have fun with that all you want. >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Sean Heskett <af...@zirkel.us> wrote: >>> >>>> All of that is very true Eric and I completely agree with you. >>>> However, Josh said it was illegal and I was pointing out that it is >>>> expressly legal to do per the FCC NN rules. It's not smart or efficient at >>>> fixing the problem but it is legal to do. >>>> >>>> -Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> you go right ahead and do DPI / deprioritize all TLS type traffic, >>>>> that is something I would highly encourage any of my competitors to do... >>>>> Since a huge % of web traffic is https now, netflix is https/tls1.2, >>>>> youtube is https/tls1.2, etc, all you would accomplish is hurting >>>>> everyone's throughput for all of the most common websites and >>>>> applications. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Sean Heskett <af...@zirkel.us> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> how is it illegal? FCC says we can manage our networks as needed. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> And illegal. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - Josh >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett" <af...@ics-il.net> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We go from bad idea to worse? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- >>>>>>>> Mike Hammett >>>>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> >>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>>>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> >>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> >>>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> >>>>>>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> >>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> >>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> >>>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> >>>>>>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> >>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser" <lists.wavel...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> *To: *af@afmug.com >>>>>>>> *Sent: *Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:15:11 AM >>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that >>>>>>>> if the customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> it off? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy <jeremysmi...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to >>>>>>>>> track their specific usage. We tell them that their are routers like >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> Fortigate which can track usage, but that we do not support those >>>>>>>>> devices. >>>>>>>>> I tell them that I think the new Torch router does it too, but that >>>>>>>>> we have >>>>>>>>> no experience with these devices. "The only way that we track which >>>>>>>>> websites are visited and what you are doing on the Internet is with a >>>>>>>>> warrant or an order from the Department of Justice". We stand behind >>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>> usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay the bill then they can >>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>> another provider. We have lost two or three customers over four >>>>>>>>> years who >>>>>>>>> refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending those ones to >>>>>>>>> collections. We just go and collect our equipment and write it off >>>>>>>>> as bad >>>>>>>>> debt. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That's an interesting point. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ------ Original Message ------ >>>>>>>>>> From: "Stefan Englhardt" <s...@genias.net> >>>>>>>>>> To: af@afmug.com; "Wireless Administrator" <wirel...@htn.net> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who >>>>>>>>>>> had to pay surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single >>>>>>>>>>> family >>>>>>>>>>> member, what IP is this. Why cant you tell me what x.y.z.w is. I >>>>>>>>>>> dont use >>>>>>>>>>> Akamai ... >>>>>>>>>>> You have to take care there is no angry escalating dispute for a >>>>>>>>>>> view Euros. I am sure this service times cost us more money than the >>>>>>>>>>> customers had to pay surplus. We have to do flat pricing. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:59:41 +0000 >>>>>>>>>>> "Wireless Administrator" <wirel...@htn.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This industry is in trouble. Nobody wants usage based >>>>>>>>>>>> billing. Customers don’t want it for obvious reasons. ISP’s are >>>>>>>>>>>> afraid to >>>>>>>>>>>> implement it for fear of losing customers. If you lose money on >>>>>>>>>>>> an account >>>>>>>>>>>> is it really an asset to your business? I feel that the Large >>>>>>>>>>>> ISP’s have >>>>>>>>>>>> already implemented Usage Based Rate Adjustment. They seem to have >>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>> automated process to adjust rates that will force off the heavy >>>>>>>>>>>> users. Our >>>>>>>>>>>> industry will not get respect until it asks for it. UBB or UBRA >>>>>>>>>>>> (New term >>>>>>>>>>>> I coined) is the way …. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Steve >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - >>>>>>>>>>>> Myakka Technologies >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: Simon Westlake >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Simon, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> But metered billing makes them think about what they are >>>>>>>>>>>> doing. Does the baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K >>>>>>>>>>>> movie? The >>>>>>>>>>>> best way I can put it is renting an apartment with utilities >>>>>>>>>>>> included. If >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm renting an apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is >>>>>>>>>>>> going to be >>>>>>>>>>>> set at 68 24/7. The cat will be very comfortable all day, why >>>>>>>>>>>> should I >>>>>>>>>>>> care. However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will have to >>>>>>>>>>>> deal with >>>>>>>>>>>> 78 during the day and I may have to deal with 72 when I get home. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is >>>>>>>>>>>> still expensive. Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your >>>>>>>>>>>> network to >>>>>>>>>>>> handle the higher bandwidth internally. >>>>>>>>>>>> 4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080 or 720 TV's. Why should >>>>>>>>>>>> someone who is willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, >>>>>>>>>>>> be forced >>>>>>>>>>>> to pay the same as that guy that wants to watch in 4K. Why should >>>>>>>>>>>> a single >>>>>>>>>>>> person who just needs dependable fast internet occasionally be >>>>>>>>>>>> force to pay >>>>>>>>>>>> the same amount as the family with 6 kids and 30 devices? Why >>>>>>>>>>>> should the >>>>>>>>>>>> kid willing to buy his game on a disc be forced to pay the same as >>>>>>>>>>>> the guy >>>>>>>>>>>> who doesn't want to get up off the couch to change a disc? >>>>>>>>>>>> Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver >>>>>>>>>>>> a top notch fast and reliable service at a single low price. The >>>>>>>>>>>> electric >>>>>>>>>>>> company gets to charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges >>>>>>>>>>>> per >>>>>>>>>>>> person, the cell phone company charges per device, cable/satellite >>>>>>>>>>>> charges >>>>>>>>>>>> per box, hell even the streaming companies get to put limits on >>>>>>>>>>>> the number >>>>>>>>>>>> of people that can stream per account. Why is it when we ask a >>>>>>>>>>>> heavy user >>>>>>>>>>>> to pay their fair share all hell breaks lose and we are the greedy >>>>>>>>>>>> bastards? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- Best regards, >>>>>>>>>>>> Mark <mailto:m...@mailmt.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> mailto:m...@mailmt.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Myakka Technologies, Inc. >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.MyakkaTech.com> www.MyakkaTech.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Please Donate at Please Donate at < >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html >>>>>>>>>>>> ------ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the >>>>>>>>>>>> problem. The customer still purchased a game they want to >>>>>>>>>>>> download, or they >>>>>>>>>>>> have a 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most people are just >>>>>>>>>>>> going to >>>>>>>>>>>> look for other options if they have to pay every time they try to >>>>>>>>>>>> use a >>>>>>>>>>>> device in their household, and even if people are willing to pay, >>>>>>>>>>>> you still >>>>>>>>>>>> have to be able to deliver enough service to them to give them the >>>>>>>>>>>> speeds >>>>>>>>>>>> they want. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much >>>>>>>>>>>> better solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game >>>>>>>>>>>> downloads, and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish >>>>>>>>>>>> there was a >>>>>>>>>>>> better option, but I really don't think implementing UBB is a >>>>>>>>>>>> solution to >>>>>>>>>>>> this problem. It may give you more money to build up your network >>>>>>>>>>>> a bit, >>>>>>>>>>>> but it is poison to most customer's ears, and it won't change their >>>>>>>>>>>> behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for them >>>>>>>>>>>> financially. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> metered billing.. wave of the future >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett < <mailto: >>>>>>>>>>>> dmmoff...@gmail.com> dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 >>>>>>>>>>>> oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming >>>>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>> complaint. >>>>>>>>>>>> As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach >>>>>>>>>>>> 1:1. You'll have to either start supplying 100meg, or start >>>>>>>>>>>> billing for >>>>>>>>>>>> consumption....or jack the price way up. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't >>>>>>>>>>>> even consider stuff like this. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ------ Original Message ------ >>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Jeremy" < <mailto:jeremysmi...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> jeremysmi...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: <mailto:af@afmug.com> af@afmug.com >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, this sucks for us. Even worse, many of these games come >>>>>>>>>>>> out with dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 >>>>>>>>>>>> for the >>>>>>>>>>>> same purchase. I bought a couple games and checked it out. It >>>>>>>>>>>> was amazing >>>>>>>>>>>> to be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on >>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>> laptop, but it was double the download size. This makes Forza >>>>>>>>>>>> potentially >>>>>>>>>>>> 200GB, without DLC. When you are providing customers 300-500GB >>>>>>>>>>>> per month >>>>>>>>>>>> without overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch >>>>>>>>>>>> providers. I'm not sure if that is a blessing or a curse. For >>>>>>>>>>>> now, it has >>>>>>>>>>>> not been a gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K >>>>>>>>>>>> content will >>>>>>>>>>>> likely hit us all pretty hard. >>>>>>>>>>>> My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an >>>>>>>>>>>> option. I initially bought discs, only to find that even after >>>>>>>>>>>> ripping >>>>>>>>>>>> them to the hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet >>>>>>>>>>>> to insert >>>>>>>>>>>> the disc. Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a >>>>>>>>>>>> menu, like >>>>>>>>>>>> all of the hacked consoles. There is no option to 'upgrade' to a >>>>>>>>>>>> digital >>>>>>>>>>>> license if you have purchased a disc. Also, if you own multiple >>>>>>>>>>>> Xbox One >>>>>>>>>>>> consoles (say at home and at work), you can play any of your games >>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>> either console, at any time, just not simultaneously. Discs are >>>>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>>>>> useless to me. The only way to get this digital license is to >>>>>>>>>>>> download it >>>>>>>>>>>> from the Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option). This >>>>>>>>>>>> has been >>>>>>>>>>>> a big bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive >>>>>>>>>>>> overages, >>>>>>>>>>>> and they usually switch to Comcast. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke < <mailto: >>>>>>>>>>>> eric.kuh...@gmail.com> eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when >>>>>>>>>>>> many customers start bringing them home... >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_wi >>>>>>>>>>>> ll_be_100gb_download> https://m.hardocp.com/news/201 >>>>>>>>>>>> 7/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- Simon Westlake >>>>>>>>>>>> Email: <mailto:simon@sonar.software> simon@sonar.software >>>>>>>>>>>> Phone: (702) 447-1247 US / (780) 900-1180 CA >>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>> Sonar Software Inc >>>>>>>>>>>> The future of ISP billing and OSS >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://sonar.software> https://sonar.software >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
