This discussion seems to be presuming that there IS significant man-made climate change, and further, that it's net effect is significantly negative.
This may be correct, but there hasn't been enough evidence yet to make a convincing case, especially in light of multiple competing theories, some of which show "change" to be overwhelmingly positive, e.g. heading off an impending ice age that we would otherwise now be entering. At this moment in future history, no one knows with any legitimate confidence even the sign +/- of any effect, let alone it's magnitude, yet trillions of dollars are being moved around based on misplaced confidence. I agree that artificial scarcity seems to be it's own sort of civilization-destroying singularity that will almost certainly outrun any sort of AGI-based singularity, but I strongly suspect that other effects will destroy civilization before the climate has a chance. Unfortunately, even knowing what will be the first thing to destroy civilization will seal our fate, because it will allow governments to adjust to forestall that particular calamity until the second thing weakens civilization enough to allow the first thing to destroy us. So, if climate change indeed proves to be the first thing capable of destroying civilization, and my GoFundMe succeeds in characterizing it enough to avoid it, then my GoFundMe could become a key component in a future even worse calamity. I don't think these conditions will be met, but I am keeping my eyes open, especially after my design for a high performance veneer clipper facilitated the conversion of the forests of Oregon into plywood - a repeat of which I would like to avoid in the future. Avoiding dangerous projects doesn't work either, as a consultant friend Wayne learned when he was asked to design an active oil platform positioning system - the failure of which would result in a major catastrophe. Wayne declined the project, so they just found another less capable consultant to do the design. There is now a PBS special explaining how the failure killed everyone aboard the rig - which seems to have stopped such craziness, at least for now. It seems that all we can do now is to participate in our own destruction - or starve. ~"A capitalist will sell you the rope for his own hanging." Steve On Sun, Mar 3, 2019, 09:06 justcamel <[email protected]> wrote: > What? I am talking about the simple process of a system generating > artificial scarcity and the psychological and cultural consequences ... > I don't know why you need to come up with any *isms? Apparently it's > really hard to understand the very core processes that shape our world, > mind and culture ... > > Climate change is just one inevitable consequence of the way our > monetary system works, of the way it requires us and our society and > anti-economy to behave and of the way it shapes our culture and value > system ... it's really, really simple. > > Without our monetary system there would be no climate change and we > would enjoy the very same level of technological progress. The delay of > certain technologies specifically pushed for warfare would have easily > been compensated by a very different (cooperative) approach to worldwide > R&D. > > A sane society would not ruin their biosphere in the name of an insane > and highly criminal monetary system and the most absurd concepts like > pointless "economic growth" beyond market saturation, #bullshitjobs > ,etc. ... regardless of their technological level. > > On 03/03/2019 17:53, Costi Dumitrescu wrote: > > > Discordianism. > > But to biopoliticians, 'the last reset' is actually evolution. > > > > On 03.03.2019 18:48, justcamel wrote: > >> That should read "after the last RESET (WW2)" ... > >> > >> On 03/03/2019 17:46, justcamel wrote: > >>> Humanity is not evolving. Humanity is de-evolving as the latest > >>> compound-interest cycle reaches its peek and causes ever increasing > >>> levels of artificial scarcity, fear, ego, competition and thus > >>> degeneration of quality of average consciousness. You are mistaking > >>> technological progress with genuine development. > >>> > >>> Technology just amplifies your impact. If you are evil/insane > >>> (feature a high-entropy consciousness) you will use technology to > >>> further increase the entropy inherent to your society and > >>> surroundings. If humanity was actually evolving (which can only > >>> happen in an environment of abundance and thus love, empathy, > >>> cooperation) we would still be using the same level of technology > >>> but with a million-fold less negative impact on our society and > >>> biosphere. > >>> > >>> 4 billion _PURELY_ _SYSTEMIC_ #bullshitjobs for example serve > >>> absolutely nobody and no meaningful purpose (they don't advance > >>> humanity nor technology) and use technology to pollute and destroy > >>> our environment and society. > >>> > >>> I don't know why it's so hard to understand? Climate change = > >>> entropyInherentToSociety amplified by technology. A crazy society > >>> (shaped by centuries of artificial scarcity) will use technology to > >>> destroy everything in the name of ego, monetary "profit", cancerous > >>> "growth", etc. ... nothing of this has anything to do with genuine > >>> development. Again: We have been heavily degenerating ever since > >>> market saturation peeked again after the last rest (WW2) and > >>> "growth" could only be maintained by engaging in ever increasing > >>> levels of insanity ... like entertaining billions of #bullshitjobs, > >>> like pushing consumerism to never-seen-before heights, etc. etc., ... > >>> > >>> On 03/03/2019 17:29, Costi Dumitrescu wrote: > >>>> There is a tradeoff between human development and ecology. > >>>> > >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index > >>>> > >>>> https://www.climate-change-performance-index.org/ > >>>> > >>>> On 03.03.2019 15:27, justcamel wrote: > >>>>> Dude, our weather is collapsing ... seasons failing us ... even > >>>>> jet streams changing directions ... wtf are you talking about? We > >>>>> are about to experience the biggest catastrophe and the largest > >>>>> radicalization of society due to _REAL_ scarcity instead of > >>>>> _SYSTEMIC_ _ARTIFICIAL_ scarcity. Read > >>>>> > https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Afterword-Steve-Taylor-ebook/dp/B07DGPD76K > >>>>> is you want to get an idea about what a similar (non man-made) > >>>>> catastrophe meant for humanity ~6000 years ago ... it basically > >>>>> turned us into the insane morons we are today ... and we still > >>>>> haven't recovered because artificial scarcity induced ego would > >>>>> soon be utilizing a system of artificial scarcity to preserve the > >>>>> status quo. > >>>>> > >>>>> If we don't implement a cooperative monetary system climate change > >>>>> will speed up the radicalization and degeneration a 100-fold and > >>>>> you will experience something much worse than any Hollywood movie > >>>>> could ever portray. 50 degrees C in summer will be the last thing > >>>>> you'll worry about once the average quality of consciousness drops > >>>>> further. (Read the book.) > >>>>> > >>>>> On 03/03/2019 13:41, Costi Dumitrescu wrote: > >>>>>> The worries about climate change come from estimating the impact > >>>>>> greenhouse effects have on the polar caps. Most of today's > >>>>>> islands are at today's sea level. > >>>>>> Maybe moving the population living at sea level to higher grounds > >>>>>> would lessen those worries. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 03.03.2019 12:41, Stefan Reich via AGI wrote: > >>>>>>> > The artificial scarcity our monetary system induces is > >>>>>>> destroying every aspect of our existence: Our minds, the quality > >>>>>>> of our > >>>>>>> consciousness, the way we interact with one another, our very core > >>>>>>> assumptions about life and our existence and also our very > >>>>>>> biosphere and > >>>>>>> planet. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> This. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 at 10:14, justcamel <[email protected] > >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Climate change can be seen as the high entropy manifestation of > >>>>>>> our high > >>>>>>> entropy monetary system and society. The only answer is a > >>>>>>> cooperation > >>>>>>> based system which does not care about nonsensical "growth" > >>>>>>> nor the > >>>>>>> absurd notion of "monetary profit" ... thus not giving birth to > >>>>>>> billions > >>>>>>> of #bullshitjobs and this all-devouring anti-economy and > >>>>>>> anti-society. > >>>>>>> The establishment will not allow for such a system to emerge > >>>>>>> as it > >>>>>>> means > >>>>>>> that there would be no more asymmetries in material wealth nor > >>>>>>> power ... > >>>>>>> at the same time, the vast majority of the population is not > >>>>>>> even > >>>>>>> aware > >>>>>>> of that answer nor of the improvements it would mean for their > >>>>>>> existence. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Climate change is a mere symptom ... just like Trump is ... > >>>>>>> just like > >>>>>>> ever increasing levels of poverty and social stratification are > >>>>>>> ... just > >>>>>>> like all the insanity you hear about in the news is. What is > >>>>>>> there to > >>>>>>> compute? The artificial scarcity our monetary system induces is > >>>>>>> destroying every aspect of our existence: Our minds, the > >>>>>>> quality > >>>>>>> of our > >>>>>>> consciousness, the way we interact with one another, our > >>>>>>> very core > >>>>>>> assumptions about life and our existence and also our very > >>>>>>> biosphere and > >>>>>>> planet. Do you really need new models or number crunching > >>>>>>> algorithms to > >>>>>>> see that? Native Americans just called the whole process > >>>>>>> "wetiko" and > >>>>>>> they understood very well that it will destroy our planet once > >>>>>>> technology would amplify the impact of our insanity a > >>>>>>> 1000-fold. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 03/03/2019 04:59, Steve Richfield wrote: > >>>>>>> > Incredibly, the argument over climate change continues, > >>>>>>> despite > >>>>>>> having > >>>>>>> > the means of resolving this at hand. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Stefan Reich > >>>>>>> BotCompany.de // Java-based operating systems > >>>>>>> *Artificial General Intelligence List > >>>>>>> <https://agi.topicbox.com/latest>* / AGI / see discussions > >>>>>>> <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi> + participants > >>>>>>> <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/members> + delivery options > >>>>>>> <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription> Permalink > >>>>>>> < > https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/Tbefabf50a1da4070-M8dc963c00ec473f9281063bc> > ------------------------------------------ Artificial General Intelligence List: AGI Permalink: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/Tbefabf50a1da4070-M3549e5e05b35177b572ca06c Delivery options: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription
