Thanks, Mike, I had not seen the rolls, I was referring to the blocks you posted to AGI recently. Yes, I did notice that the infant does not care to align the blocks. That suggested to me that the infant thinks of a block as a unit, not as an object with other details. This in turn suggested to me that he has only two positions for each unit, say "detached" and "attached." He did however set the blocks so they do not slide.
Another detail that caught my attention very strongly, is that he always starts a tower from an existing block, without moving it to a position where he wants the tower to be erected. This, suggests that he is not really thinking of the tower. He only wants the blocks to be together. Sergio -----Original Message----- From: Mike Tintner [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 10:04 AM To: AGI Subject: Re: [agi] Analog Computation jeez Sergio - lazy this'll do: (note the key part - the infant can't manage the final roll with one hand, so he creatively uses two hands & is rightfully v. pleased with his genius - note also for the algorithmically-minded, the infant does *not* do precise aligning, only fluidly aligning - this to repeat is true AGI) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-RM9VVHPII p.s. first note was to Ben, not you -------------------------------------------------- From: "Sergio Pissanetzky" <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 3:50 PM To: "AGI" <[email protected]> Subject: RE: [agi] Analog Computation > Mike, you are holding me hostage. I would have to be a magician to > answer anything in such conditions. People work, and think, and c > hange parameters to compare. That's the creative process you are > advocating. So what would an infant do if confronted with blocks he > can't pick up? Or that wouldn't stay where he puts them? > > You are not hostage to my question, you can simply reply "I don't know." > > Sergio > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Tintner [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 8:52 AM > To: AGI > Subject: Re: [agi] Analog Computation > > Huh?*?! > > You aren't answering the question - & I didn't expect you to. My main > interest right here is in the psychology of creativity - and how > people get stuck or blocked at different levels. You seem to be a pure > magic saucer - i.e."magic sauce to come at a later stage". Sergio is > "magic X sauce with miracle ingredient". The sauce has a v. definite > name and principle, (EI) but no one knows how it works to solve the > problem (hence "miracle ingredient"). > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Ben Goertzel" <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 2:31 PM > To: "AGI" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [agi] Analog Computation > >> What is the difference between you, and the differential equations >> governing the activity of your neurons and glia, etc.? >> >> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Mike Tintner >> <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> Ben:The algorithms aren't intelligent, but system designed based on >>> >>> algorithms may in some cases be intelligent.. >>> >>> Well, great, but that still sounds like magic sauce - so maybe my >>> "perhaps there are others..." point is v. valid. >>> IOW you're not offering the slightest real differentiation of the >>> "system based on..." etc from a mere algorithm. >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Ben Goertzel" <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 2:20 PM >>> To: "AGI" <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [agi] Analog Computation >>> >>>> "Algorithms are very intelligent" is sorta like "Systems of >>>> nonlinear differential equations are good at flying" ;-p ... >>>> >>>> Algorithms are mathematical abstractions, that can be used to guide >>>> development of software or hardware operating specific systems, >>>> which can then be set loose to interact with the world in various > ways... >>>> >>>> The algorithms aren't intelligent, but system designed based on >>>> algorithms may in some cases be intelligent.. >>>> >>>> -- Ben G >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 9:04 PM, Mike Tintner >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Well, everyone here thinks that algorithms are v. intelligent - if >>>>> not now, then soon, with a little scaling and more sophisticated >>>>> heuristics. >>>>> Just >>>>> a >>>>> bit more of the same, old. >>>>> >>>>> I agree that they are only slavish routines (no matter how >>>>> complex) and will never be more than a hyperspecialist form of >>>>> low-level intelligence. >>>>> But >>>>> you >>>>> haven't persuaded me (or I suspect anyone else) that you're >>>>> actually offering anything different - not even *conceptually.* >>>>> You >>>>> *sound* like Pei who was - perhaps still is - offering a >>>>> "non-algorithmic" form of logic - except that it turned out, when >>>>> you pressed him, to be just another algorithm after all. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps there are others like y'all, recognising the limits of >>>>> algo's, but trying for magic sauce solutions. >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Sergio Pissanetzky" <[email protected]> >>>>> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 1:51 PM >>>>> To: "AGI" <[email protected]> >>>>> >>>>> Subject: RE: [agi] Analog Computation >>>>> >>>>>> Alan, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's nonsense. A camera, or a person, can look at a black and >>>>>> white scene, light-on or light-off. A person will still recognize >>>>>> the image. How? >>>>>> You >>>>>> can't tell. You can only write a monstruous program that will do >>>>>> nothing but what you teach it to do. And you can't improve on >>>>>> that. Your robots are clumsy, and you can't improve on that. Your >>>>>> chess-playing machine can't play checkers, and can't even learn >>>>>> how. You need a human to improve on that. >>>>>> You >>>>>> can't do OO-analysis, you need a human to do that. Your semantic >>>>>> web ... >>>>>> where is it? You can't integrate systems, you need a human to do >>>>>> that. >>>>>> This >>>>>> is an AGI blog, and writing program is not AGI, it is using human >>>>>> slaves to row. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sergio >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Alan Grimes [mailto:[email protected]] >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 5:46 PM >>>>>> To: AGI >>>>>> Subject: Re: [agi] Analog Computation >>>>>> >>>>>> Sergio Pissanetzky wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'll use a camera instead of the retina. When light hits a pixel >>>>>>> in that camera, an electric signal is produced and travels to >>>>>>> the brain, I mean the computer. That's it, that's the causal >>>>>>> relation, light + pixel (and the pixel has a position, which is >>>>>>> how spatial information gets encoded) cause signal. Multiply >>>>>>> that by 1 million pixels, and you have a big causal set. From >>>>>>> the signals alone, you can't tell that the camera is looking at >>>>>>> your mother's face (in Hofstadter's words). But if you display >>>>>>> the signals on a screen, your brain will immediately recognize >>>>>>> the image. That's EI. I did it on a small scale on my PC, and I >>>>>>> now want to do it on a larger scale. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you have ANY idea how cameras work? >>>>>> >>>>>> For every pixel, for every scan interval, the sensor will be >>>>>> affected by tens of thousands to millions of photons... >>>>>> >>>>>> What you get is a number. Typically, in most applications between >>>>>> 0 and 255. >>>>>> We can abstract that to some floating point value between 0 and 1 >>>>>> where >>>>>> 0 >>>>>> is >>>>>> almost no light and 1 is sensor saturation. >>>>>> >>>>>> You are given a matrix of these, We will assume perfect pixels >>>>>> that are vertically aligned and there are no sensor artifacts. >>>>>> >>>>>> Your AI must find and encode the simplest possible theory of what >>>>>> objects must exist out in the world to have excited the sensors >>>>>> on your camera in such a way. >>>>>> >>>>>> That is visual perception. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm getting sick and tired of reading this ignorant crap out of >>>>>> you. I expect it from the list clown but you should be smarter >>>>>> than this, that's why I'm so disappointed in you. =( >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> E T F >>>>>> N H E >>>>>> D E D >>>>>> >>>>>> Powers are not rights. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>>>> AGI >>>>>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>>>>> RSS Feed: >>>>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/18883996-f0d58d57 >>>>>> Modify Your Subscription: >>>>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>>>> d2 >>>>>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>>>> AGI >>>>>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>>>>> RSS Feed: >>>>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/6952829-59a2eca5 >>>>>> >>>>>> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>>>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>>> AGI >>>>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>>>> RSS Feed: >>>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/212726-11ac2389 >>>>> Modify Your Subscription: >>>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ben Goertzel, PhD >>>> http://goertzel.org >>>> >>>> "My humanity is a constant self-overcoming" -- Friedrich Nietzsche >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>> AGI >>>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>>> RSS Feed: >>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/6952829-59a2eca5 >>>> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; Powered >>>> by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------- >>> AGI >>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>> RSS Feed: >>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/212726-11ac2389 >>> Modify Your Subscription: >>> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Ben Goertzel, PhD >> http://goertzel.org >> >> "My humanity is a constant self-overcoming" -- Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> AGI >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> RSS Feed: >> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/6952829-59a2eca5 >> Modify Your Subscription: >> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > > > > ------------------------------------------- > AGI > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: > https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/18883996-f0d58d57 > Modify Your Subscription: > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > d2 > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > AGI > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: > https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/6952829-59a2eca5 > Modify Your Subscription: > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/18883996-f0d58d57 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; d2 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-c97d2393 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-2484a968 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
