Mike, Your "extreme loner" Nietzsche is my social butterfly :). Haven't read much of his, because what I did read was pretty superficial. That goes for every philosopher I've heard of. To me, being a loner is simply a matter of emotional independence, - there's no point in socializing without common interests. I have no "religious" convictions, & question / revise my opinions every time I think about them. They evolved quite a bit after 50 years of questioning, & so did my confidence in them. But I wouldn't generalize about AGI crowd, most here are "integrative" types.
Jim, As with Aaron, & most anyone in AGI, I think your primary problem is the inductive / reductionist phase. That's when you prune-out irrelevant complexity. My post was regarding deductive / generative phase, because that's my problem. www.cognitivealgorithm.info. From: Jim Bromer Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 10:46 PM To: AGI Subject: Re: [agi] Attention to abstractions Well that is an over generalization. Not all of us believe that our method and our method alone is the solution. I believe that I have some important insights that should be considered but I don't have a solution. It may be that the problem from here is just one of complexity in which case many of us have different bases that we could get to work once the complexity problem is adequately resolved. I did try focusing on the problem for many years and that methodology did not work because the primary problem is obviously complexity. I could not solve that problem and thinking real hard about it did not get me very far. The arguments I've had in these groups have helped me to see that many ideas that other people held and some ideas that I held were probably not viable. Jim Bromer On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 10:00 PM, Mike Archbold <[email protected]> wrote: Well, I am all for being extreme, I guess... I qualified it by saying "extreme loner" like Nietzsche. I suspect a lot of the personality types that get on AGI are the introvert loner sort, very highly opinionated and living in a world of ideas, not of concrete objects, with idealistic traits and the almost religious conviction that their method -- and their method alone -- is *the* solution! On 3/12/13, Boris Kazachenko <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks Mike! > >> socializing is usually good though, in moderation, at least in terms of >> expanding your network. > > Depends on your priorities, this post was about focus on abstractions. I'd > question the value of networks in AGI. Google does a decent job of finding / > promoting relevant content, as long as your know your keywords. Try > something as general as cognition+algorithm, what do you see? If you post a > coherent write-up, anyone on the wavelength is likely to find it, networks > be damned. If there isn't anyone anywhere, tough shit, your network will > only distract you. > >> some extreme loners like Nietzsche on the other hand could make great use >> of their hours alone, > > Needless to say, "non-extreme" people are, at best, quite useless in AGI. > >> however the problem then is getting too out of touch with reality. > > Well, there are two ways to interpret this: > > a) You're worried about making a living. This is a largely atavistic > concern, it's pretty hard to starve to death in a modern society. A > night-shift security job is plenty sufficient. > b) Your model of reality is wrong. > That can be a problem if you're confabulating something concrete, where > there is a gazillion of possibilities & only one is "real". But on higher > levels of generalization, the possibilities thin-out. In AGI, > you are generalizing from everything you know, & filter-out almost all of > it. Additional / updated knowledge won't make nearly as much difference as > refining your past learning experience, into universals applicable across > all of it. The problem here is not getting things right | real, it's > removing redundancies & non-universals. > All that is about inductive phase of work, when you get to deductive phase > the criterion changes from "reality" to consistency. > > > BTW, everyone, I am posting relevant replies as comments on my blog, let me > know if you mind. > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Mike Archbold" <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 9:49 PM > To: "AGI" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [agi] Attention to abstractions > >> very well thought, Boris. I agree with your thoughts about the Web. >> It strikes me as the most useful utility but horrible time suck ever >> invented. smart phones are even worse... I don't have one but have >> tinkered around with others phones to know what is at least going on! >> the answer is it just brings a time wasting to you >> around-the-clock.... socializing is usually good though, in >> moderation, at least in terms of expanding your network. some extreme >> loners like Nietzsche on the other hand could make great use of their >> hours alone, however the problem then is getting too out of touch with >> reality. >> >> Mike Archbold (I get weird sentence structure with voice recognition) >> >> On 3/6/13, Boris Kazachenko <[email protected]> wrote: >>> A (not so) new conclusion on my intro >>> (http://www.cognitivealgorithm.info): >>> >>> . I am deeply convinced that main challenge we face in formalizing GI is >>> our >>> specie-wide ADHD. >>> Our cognitive psychology, lagging a light year behind our technology, is >>> addicted to mental crutches of authority, examples, & experimentation, >>> while >>> theoretical integrity is neglected & abused. >>> >>> It's pretty obvious that AGI is by far the most important problem now. >>> Yet, >>> not one out of 7B people pays it his full attention. A handful of people >>> claim to do so, but they all find excuses to fluff & tinker, at the >>> expense >>> of building coherent theory. To me, it's a stark proof that a dressed-up >>> ape >>> desperately needs therapy. I've experimented with various methods to >>> focus >>> on my meta-theory, with subjective success. For those who like the >>> results >>> (above), I posted suggestions on my other blog: >>> >>> >>> Cultivating focus on extreme generalizations. >>> >>> >>> Sustaining top-down attention is critical for anything complex, >>> especially a >>> theoretical breakthrough. Such ability is scarce because we evolved to >>> focus >>> on here & now survival, while far & future was back-of-the-mind luxury. >>> Modern society is drastically more secure, but our attention spans lag >>> far >>> behind. Almost anyone can become a world-changing genius, if he spends >>> 10 >>> years fully focused on important problem. at the cost of so-called >>> "life": >>> unthinkable for ADHD- addled hunter-gatherers we still are. >>> >>> Attention span as discussed here is not simply a duration of focus on a >>> given subject. Rather, it's a relative strength of higher cortical >>> areas, >>> which represent generalized experience, in selecting subjects for >>> focused >>> attention. For me, selection & basic understanding of my top priority >>> came >>> early & easy. But actually maintaining effective focus on important stuff >>> in >>> spite of ubiquitous distractions was far more difficult. Over the years, >>> I >>> majorly improved my concentration thanks to these observations: >>> >>> >>> Practice, externalizing thoughts, & avoiding distractions: >>> >>> >>> Practice forms increasingly redundant representations, differentiated by >>> their context to explore alternative scenarios. Such redundancy is key >>> to >>> maintaining subconsciously searching threads, even when your >>> consciousness >>> is distracted. It also fills up memory & starves unrelated subjects out >>> of >>> resources. This is very important: irrelevant memories keep competing >>> for >>> our attention until well forgotten. But we need a conducive environment >>> to >>> facilitate this virtuous cycle of practicing. >>> >>> The most basic working environment is a notepad or a computer screen, so >>> we >>> need to fill them with a well designed write-up of the subject matter. >>> The >>> brain, quite obviously, has plenty of memory for a few pages of text, >>> scarce >>> resource here is attention. Writing down thoughts simply turns them into >>> a >>> sensory feedback, which attracts attention much better than internalized >>> abstractions. Also helps a motor feedback, such as vocalizing, writing >>> by >>> hand, semi-random editing/ re-arranging text or code. >>> >>> Even more critical is concise & cohesive (thus memorable) terminology, >>> abbreviations, & symbols, - small enough to keep reverberating within >>> one's >>> working memory. To build a coherent mental model, one should be using/ >>> designing a dedicated pseudo-language, with subject-specific syntax & >>> semantics. Just as important is a macro-structure: comprehensive >>> write-up >>> with regular & contextually integral paragraphs & parts. Basically, one >>> should always try go for quality vs. quantity, continuously refining, >>> consolidating, & extending old articles or programs, rather than >>> piling-up >>> new loosely related ones. >>> >>> Of course, we're social animals, & our most important "environment" is >>> the >>> people we deal with. >>> Hence the urge to bounce our ideas & decisions off others: it forces us >>> to >>> focus on the implications. Your listener's attention (if credible) >>> stimulates yours, even if he doesn't really contribute anything. One >>> solution is a socially-imposed institutional environment, as in a good >>> university or a company. >>> But that requires societal consumer competence, which is sorely lacking >>> in >>> relatively generalized fields. >>> >>> Absent relevant stimulation (be honest about "relevant"), one must block >>> the >>> irrelevant one, AKA life. Real-life socializing is almost always >>> meaningless, at least compared to impersonal reading & writing. But >>> people >>> are so desperate to belong that they will settle for the least >>> irrelevant >>> group they can join, even obviously detrimental to their stated purpose. >>> Suppressing this urge is a must for any significant progress. However >>> miserable social isolation feels at first, avoiding distractions is an >>> effective way to ultimately focus: broadly stimulated brain always does >>> something, so attention is a zero-sum game. Anyway, social stimulation >>> can >>> be largely replaced by "pseudo-social" one: writing or talking to >>> oneself. >>> >>> Beside socializing, the worst attention hog now is the web, & my solution >>> is >>> rationing. Unless there is something urgent or work-related (unlikely), >>> I >>> only connect for ~2 hours once a day. Sticking to it was a challenge, I >>> have >>> to use "Freedom"(& highly recommend it) to keep myself honest. This >>> sounds >>> trivial, but staying off-line made a huge difference to my >>> concentration. >>> And I am not even talking about cell phones, - never considered catching >>> that plague. >>> Also helps using a specific desk, computer, & times of the day only for >>> work, down to locking oneself in. Such cognitive behavioral therapy is >>> also >>> useful with insomnia & other self-control problems. >>> >>> But even more insidious, at least for a generalist like me, are internal >>> distractions: wandering thoughts. Just recently, I came up with a >>> low-tech >>> solution: thought conditioning. Positive conditioning of relevant >>> thoughts >>> seems impractical because the delay is too long, but the negative one is >>> very simple & old-fashioned: catch yourself thinking about some obvious >>> distractions, & slap your face hard. Eventually, these subjects become >>> subconsciously unpleasant, & you will stop thinking about them. Even the >>> habit of specifically monitoring thoughts for distractions already helps >>> to >>> terminate them. >>> >>> A less direct form of thought conditioning is via neurofeedback, article. >>> I >>> currently use, with moderate success, very simple feedback: every day, I >>> write down the number of hours spent effectively focused on work, >>> translating total number of hours spent into top 10% out of recent >>> working >>> hours. >>> More advanced neurofeedback may become possible in relatively near future >>> by >>> visualizing subject-associated cortical activity via transcranial >>> imaging, >>> such as EEG, fMRI, or infrared spectroscopy. >>> >>> Ideally, we should be able to directly stimulate or condition cortical >>> areas >>> that represent the subject we want to focus on, via transcranial direct >>> current, magnetic fields, ultrasound, or even implants. >>> Big-picture intellectual integrity should be improved by stimulating >>> left >>> dorsolateral prefrontal cortex: the last to myelinate during development >>> & >>> containing most general concepts, thus executive function. >>> >>> BCI-assisted control over the focus of one's attention will be the most >>> profound revolution yet, - it will change what we want out of life. But, >>> waiting for the technology might leave you hopelessly behind those who >>> cultivate their attention the old-fashioned way. >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------- >>> AGI >>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>> RSS Feed: >>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/11943661-d9279dae >>> Modify Your Subscription: >>> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> AGI >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> RSS Feed: >> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/18407320-d9907b69 >> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >> > > > ------------------------------------------- > AGI > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/11943661-d9279dae > Modify Your Subscription: > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10561250-470149cf Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
