Q1. S.o. throws a ball ... all you may be aware of is that you stick out a
hand and catch it.
You may not be not aware of reasoning graphically about the trajectory of
the ball, but I think we can be confident that some such reasoning is taking
place - and I wouldn't imagine that you would particularly object to that -
though there might be arguments about the exact form - the exact "drawing" -
of the trajectory.
{Indeed, in the majority of our fast, immediate real world interactions,
there simply isn't time for visual/sensory/graphic reasoning to take place
consciously - they HAVE to be kept unconscious].
Ditto I presented long ago a whole series of photos where visual reasoning
is obviously taking place - e.g. a man teeters on a balcony - you may not
consciously see him falling, but that is what is in your mind. In most
photos where movement is taking place, we clearly have to be reasoning about
the preceding and subsequent movement to the frozen movement in the "still."
Q2. Re "the main tool for concept representation" evidence, that involves a
major philosophical as well as scientific/empirical argument about the
nature of graphics - and how we demonstrably use and apply them in our
culture - and esp. apply the ordinary graphics of the graphic arts v.
differently to the fixed graphics of maths. So I'll have to come back on
that one when there's more time.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Goertzel
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 5:35 PM
To: AGI
Subject: Re: [agi] A General O.D. (Operational Definition) for all AGI
projects
What is your evidence that people unconsciously reason graphically,
even when they feel like they're not?
Of course, it's obvious the brain maintains multiple spatial maps
(e.g. the allocentric map in hippocampus, and the egocentric maps in
parietal cortex), and links this with visual cortex which is good at
visual pattern recognition -- but what's your evidence that this sort
of graphical/visual representation is universally widely used by
people as the main tool for concept representation?
On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 12:23 AM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]>
wrote:
!. "You seem to be taking your own personal experience of thinking and
incorrectly extending it
to everybody..."
What's at issue here is by no means how people necessarily think a)
consciously and/or b) self-aware-ly (in a way they can report later). (or
by
extension my personal thinking).
No question that a lot of people do a lot of thinking to all conscious
appearances very-to-near-exclusively verbally. Hence GOFAI and text-ual
intelligence approaches.
What's at issue is how the mind (or any future real AGI mind) thinks as a
whole - incl. unconsciously.
We are not aware of most of our sensory/graphic reasoning, even when
we/A.I.
can be extremely confident it's taking place, e.g. when we navigate
through
a crowd, or catch balls, we are v. often not aware of sensory reasoning,
though it must be taking place.
2. These other approaches are not consistent with what I'm saying - wh. is
centrally that "fluid/soft" graphics are central to conceptual thought and
movement and reasoning generally (by contrast with the "rigid graphics"
of
geometrical and algorithmic thought). I believe also that fluid/soft
graphics are not algorithmic, but are nevertheless computational/robotic
and
central to AGI.
O.K. I'll give you/me a break there - but this has been a productive
exchange.
-----Original Message----- From: Ben Goertzel
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 4:33 PM
To: AGI
Subject: Re: [agi] A General O.D. (Operational Definition) for all AGI
projects
You reckon Newton thought about apples (etc) falling to earth, and moons
"falling" round planets, by thinking about their names/words? And
proceeding
via logico-verbal inference.,?
I don't know about Newton, but Hadamard wrote a great book based on his
survey
of how various mathematicans thought in the early part of the last
century
http://archive.org/details/eassayonthepsych006281mbp // free online
version
http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychology-Invention-Mathematical-Field/dp/0486201074
As his empirical survey makes clear, some of these folks think
verbally, some visually,
some auditorially, some more abstractly.... There is no universal
rule to the way people
experience their thoughts, it seems...
You seem to be taking your own personal experience of thinking and
incorrectly extending it
to everybody...
However, your point that *sensory* (not necessarily) visual
representations are critical
to human-like intelligence, is an important one
But please note that the most fashionable approach to AGI these days
is deep learning, which
incorporates precisely this same idea. So the idea that sensory
representations are critical
is not novel at all -- it's pretty much the new common sense in the AGI
field...
Deep Mind and Vicarious Systems, for instance, are two of the better
funded AGI projects
around, and both are vision-centric and deep learning centric...
-- Ben G
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--
Ben Goertzel, PhD
http://goertzel.org
"My humanity is a constant self-overcoming" -- Friedrich Nietzsche
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