While I think it's valuable for Mike to be here emphasizing sensory input, my position as well, Ben is clearly right that it isn't a matter of graphics being missing. An intelligence must learn to handle all sensory inputs, and possibly just touch can feed into the maps, with some work. In addition, it's a learned sensory-motor system-- there is also feedback between senses and motor output. andi
Can I help? On May 14, 2013, at 11:35 AM, Ben Goertzel <[email protected]> wrote: > What is your evidence that people unconsciously reason graphically, > even when they feel like they're not? > > Of course, it's obvious the brain maintains multiple spatial maps > (e.g. the allocentric map in hippocampus, and the egocentric maps in > parietal cortex), and links this with visual cortex which is good at > visual pattern recognition -- but what's your evidence that this sort > of graphical/visual representation is universally widely used by > people as the main tool for concept representation? > > > > On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 12:23 AM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]> > wrote: >> !. "You seem to be taking your own personal experience of thinking and >> >> incorrectly extending it >> to everybody..." >> >> What's at issue here is by no means how people necessarily think a) >> consciously and/or b) self-aware-ly (in a way they can report later). (or by >> extension my personal thinking). >> >> No question that a lot of people do a lot of thinking to all conscious >> appearances very-to-near-exclusively verbally. Hence GOFAI and text-ual >> intelligence approaches. >> >> What's at issue is how the mind (or any future real AGI mind) thinks as a >> whole - incl. unconsciously. >> >> We are not aware of most of our sensory/graphic reasoning, even when we/A.I. >> can be extremely confident it's taking place, e.g. when we navigate through >> a crowd, or catch balls, we are v. often not aware of sensory reasoning, >> though it must be taking place. >> >> 2. These other approaches are not consistent with what I'm saying - wh. is >> centrally that "fluid/soft" graphics are central to conceptual thought and >> movement and reasoning generally (by contrast with the "rigid graphics" of >> geometrical and algorithmic thought). I believe also that fluid/soft >> graphics are not algorithmic, but are nevertheless computational/robotic and >> central to AGI. >> >> O.K. I'll give you/me a break there - but this has been a productive >> exchange. >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Ben Goertzel >> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 4:33 PM >> >> To: AGI >> Subject: Re: [agi] A General O.D. (Operational Definition) for all AGI >> projects >> >>> You reckon Newton thought about apples (etc) falling to earth, and moons >>> "falling" round planets, by thinking about their names/words? And >>> proceeding >>> via logico-verbal inference.,? >> >> I don't know about Newton, but Hadamard wrote a great book based on his >> survey >> of how various mathematicans thought in the early part of the last century >> >> http://archive.org/details/eassayonthepsych006281mbp // free online version >> >> http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychology-Invention-Mathematical-Field/dp/0486201074 >> >> As his empirical survey makes clear, some of these folks think >> verbally, some visually, >> some auditorially, some more abstractly.... There is no universal >> rule to the way people >> experience their thoughts, it seems... >> >> You seem to be taking your own personal experience of thinking and >> incorrectly extending it >> to everybody... >> >> However, your point that *sensory* (not necessarily) visual >> representations are critical >> to human-like intelligence, is an important one >> >> But please note that the most fashionable approach to AGI these days >> is deep learning, which >> incorporates precisely this same idea. So the idea that sensory >> representations are critical >> is not novel at all -- it's pretty much the new common sense in the AGI >> field... >> >> Deep Mind and Vicarious Systems, for instance, are two of the better >> funded AGI projects >> around, and both are vision-centric and deep learning centric... >> >> -- Ben G >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> AGI >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/6952829-59a2eca5 >> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> AGI >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/212726-deec6279 >> Modify Your Subscription: >> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > > > > -- > Ben Goertzel, PhD > http://goertzel.org > > "My humanity is a constant self-overcoming" -- Friedrich Nietzsche > > > ------------------------------------------- > AGI > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/3870391-266c919a > Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
