So could a simple "here is what we have so far and we still have some to add" have avoided all of this? My guess is we all would have been a bit quieter, at least until it was all published.
On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 10:00 AM, LJ LongWing <lj.longw...@gmail.com> wrote: > ** > Well....one 'plus' that I've seen so far is that they say that the catalog > that we are looking at is a bit 'short'...meaning that they have stated > it's only 85% done....so...I did the math...that means there are about > another 20ish sessions still to be decided upon....will that be enough? > I'm not sure...I read on communities that most of the 'undecided' are in > the track that Remedy resides in...so it's possible that they will be > adding sessions of a technical nature, but only time will tell. > Additionally, I saw that the 'early bird' timeframe was extended to Aug > 15....so that gives people more time once the sessions are more > finalized....I'm still watching the situation as it unfolds....we will see > what we end up with at the end. > > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Jason Miller <jason.mil...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> ** >> I think what we see is the difference between a Remedy conference and a >> BMC conference (duh). To expand on that obvious statement what we know and >> love is World Wide Remedy Users Group (WWRUG), Remedy is in the name. BMC >> cannot cater to the Remedy community alone and neglect their other products >> (well they could but would probably upset the customers of the other >> products). The conference that would have avoided all of this criticism >> from us likely would have looked very lopsided to non-Remedy customers and >> I imaging there were discussions around these points and a conscious >> decision that the conference had to be balanced. >> >> Claire pointed out they hired a company to help with the conference. >> Since most of my IT career has been centered around Remedy I have not been >> to other corporate conferences however my guess is they look pretty similar >> to ENGAGE. BMC and the company helping them plan is likely using the usual >> format for a corporate event. Unfortunately we have been spoiled and are >> use to getting the conference we want and that is designed to provide the >> maximum value for Remedy customers. BMC is not and cannot provide that for >> us under the BMC-wide umbrella. >> >> With that said I am still disappointed. I feel they could have >> incorporated more technical, customer presentations and AR-specific content >> while using some of the lessons learned from the past 5 years of WWRUG and >> still providing a pretty balanced event (i.e. add some of the aspects we >> love to other product areas instead of taking away from Remedy). >> >> A BMC event and WWRUG have two different focuses and I can't imagine them >> ever being close to the same thing. The corporate run Remedy User Groups >> that we loved were hosted by Remedy Corp (ok so I never attended one of >> those but I know you guys and gals loved them). Of course those catered to >> Remedy people, that was their only product family to focus on. >> >> So I think the question is can a North America WWRUG and BMC corporate >> event exist in the same year? I suspect with BMC back in the corporate >> event game they will not provide nearly the same level of sponsorship they >> have for previous WWRUGs. >> >> Jason >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 9:17 AM, Scott Philben <sphil...@mac.com> wrote: >> >>> ** >>> I'm not sure I could get to 5-6. 3-4 maybe. What would I do with the >>> rest of my time? >>> >>> When I heard this was happening, I was excited. BMC was running it! The >>> real insiders! There would be more discussions on the other BMC tools! All >>> the good stuff all in one place! Adventure and excitement! >>> >>> Now that I have seen the agenda, it's all about meh... Where are the >>> technical discussions for us who don't need hand holding and the "New >>> Remedy User Experience?" Where are the "ways to use Remedy that you never >>> thought of?" How about Misi and seeing how he integrates things with >>> Remedy? Where are the little customers and big customers explaining how >>> they do things with Remedy? >>> >>> This sounds like a lot of Marketing types there to sell me stuff. >>> >>> And stop pushing The Cloud! >>> >>> -scott >>> >>> >>> On Jul 29, 2014, at 11:49 AM, Rick Cook <remedyr...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> ** >>> Looks like they updated the session times to more reasonable values. >>> Some of that may be time zone adjustment, but at least evenings now look >>> free for networking and other activities. >>> >>> I know that not everyone is ready for the advanced stuff, and that we >>> need sessions at all levels. But I see maybe 5-6 breakouts I would >>> definitely attend. The rest are kinda meh... >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 7:20 AM, Warren R. Baltimore II < >>> warrenbaltim...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> ** >>>> err...that would be San Jose.... heh...still haven't had my full load >>>> of coffee..... >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 10:18 AM, Warren R. Baltimore II < >>>> warrenbaltim...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> First off, as to Claire's earlier comment, I am truly flattered..... >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure why anyone would have thought this to be any different >>>>> then it has ALWAYS been when BMC ran this thing. I still remember giving >>>>> an ear full to some poor staffer in San Diego back in 2006 (I think) about >>>>> how upset I was that it was nothing more then one long marketing tool for >>>>> the ITSM suite.... At the time, all I did was development, and it was >>>>> pretty darn evident that BMC no longer wished to sell the ARSystem as a >>>>> development platform. >>>>> >>>>> I've not been able to get to many of these since I left the University >>>>> of Washington (it is so much harder to convince a profit motivated manager >>>>> of these things then a University manager!), and I had hoped to go to >>>>> this, >>>>> but now I'm not so sure.... Maybe I'm just better off finding a good >>>>> class >>>>> somewhere.... >>>>> >>>>> BMC, you really need to start listening to this group. They are some >>>>> of your Remedy products biggest fans. We can can be a bit of handful >>>>> sometimes, but we're worth it! Stop treating this as a way to just sell >>>>> your products. We've already bought into that. Instead, think about how >>>>> YOU can help US to better leverage these products. Do a better job in >>>>> running this event. Perhaps give it to the education and >>>>> engineering/R&D departments, and leave the sales staff at home! >>>>> >>>>> *sigh* >>>>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Tami Palacky <tpala...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> ** >>>>>> too funny Jason!!! >>>>>> >>>>>> seems they are going back to how BMC used to run the conference. too >>>>>> bad there is no more WWRUG. i guess the guys got burned out. :( >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, July 28, 2014 7:57:42 PM UTC-4, Jason Miller wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> ** >>>>>>> By doing our own thing we would simply be creating an overlay on >>>>>>> ENGAGE. Once we create the overlay we can customize and changes by BMC >>>>>>> won't have an impact. Except if they delete one of us in base, that >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> have an impact on the overlay. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 4:42 PM, Tauf Chowdhury <tauf...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ** >>>>>>>> Not if you do it from a hotel room though? I'll pitch in for a >>>>>>>> suite. We can set up a google hang out and a live tweet session. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 7:40 PM, laurent matheo <lm...@me.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ** >>>>>>>>> Yeah I proposed this... Somekind of "genius bar" or something, >>>>>>>>> maybe panel like, or small breakouts or something... >>>>>>>>> Could have been setup like a "mini community onsite" using Matt >>>>>>>>> for this... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe we could squat the booth location for this when it's not >>>>>>>>> attended? If it's like wwrug, it's just opened for lunch / not a long >>>>>>>>> time, >>>>>>>>> we could use the place to do some small groups about a theme or >>>>>>>>> something? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So, a mix between the "bird & the feathers", "genius bar", >>>>>>>>> "community" and whatever? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We could even stream it live on the net so the others could see it >>>>>>>>> (that could be a problem with BMC rules though). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 29 Jul, 2014,at 01:36 AM, Tauf Chowdhury <tauf...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ** >>>>>>>>> I was willing to sponsor a technical/learning lab at the >>>>>>>>> conference. Reached out to numerous people. Deaf ears. Oh well... I'm >>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>> going. Love networking (by networking I mean drinking) with you guys >>>>>>>>> if you >>>>>>>>> decide to go. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Tauf Chowdhury <tauf...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In browsing through the sessions and speakers, the title of >>>>>>>>>> unnamed speaker pretty much sums up my assessment of the catalog: >>>>>>>>>> Lead Technical Marketing Consultant >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 7:31 PM, laurent matheo <lm...@me.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ** >>>>>>>>>>> The evening is still there, Tuesday from 6 to 8 PM: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.eventmgmt.aimia.com/events/bmc-engage-2014/custom-20- >>>>>>>>>>> 2bc888d975f2496db5d3f819b9735209.aspx >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> But that's weird... Since breakouts continue from 6 to 9 PM on >>>>>>>>>>> tuesday... So or you go stalk the Engineers (and potentially miss 2 >>>>>>>>>>> breakouts), or you attend the breakouts (and miss the candy)? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 29 Jul, 2014,at 01:26 AM, Rick Cook <remed...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ** >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And with so many evening sessions, where does the Evening with >>>>>>>>>>> Engineering or the other evening activities go? Will they even >>>>>>>>>>> have them? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Rick >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014 4:24 PM, "Jason Miller" <jason....@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ** >>>>>>>>>>>> Not impressed. My first impress is welcome back BMC Marketing >>>>>>>>>>>> World. We haven't missed you all these years. Maybe I need to >>>>>>>>>>>> just let it >>>>>>>>>>>> soak in for a day or two?.?.?. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Unless I am overlooking something it seems there are very few >>>>>>>>>>>> presentations by customers. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 3:46 PM, Sanford, Claire <Claire....@ >>>>>>>>>>>> memorialhermann.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ** >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just shaking my head… >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) >>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:ars...@arslist.org] *On Behalf Of *laurent matheo >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, July 28, 2014 5:32 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *To:* ars...@arslist.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: ENGAGE >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ** >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems the list is on now: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://bmc.g2planet.com/bmcengage2014/event_agenda >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 29 Jul, 2014,at 12:25 AM, "Sanford, Claire" <Claire....@ >>>>>>>>>>>>> MEMORIALHERMANN.ORG> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You are certainly trusting Terry! >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I’ll wait for the agenda and hope they extend the early bird >>>>>>>>>>>>> rate. I can see it now… >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ME: Hi Mr. Director, please spend thousands of dollars for >>>>>>>>>>>>> me to be gone for almost a week for a conference where we have no >>>>>>>>>>>>> idea what >>>>>>>>>>>>> the content is. There is an early bird discount!!! >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> DIR: Come back when you have an agenda and a firm grasp on >>>>>>>>>>>>> what you sessions are going to attend AND how much you are going >>>>>>>>>>>>> to spend. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ME: Big Sigh… >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [ >>>>>>>>>>>>> mailto:...@ARSLIST.ORG] *On Behalf Of *Tauf Chowdhury >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, July 28, 2014 4:52 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> *To:* ars...@arslist.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: ENGAGE >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ** >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Is that like the "good faith" deposit at a car dealer? Say >>>>>>>>>>>>> goodbye to that $75! Hehe >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 5:49 PM, Terry Bootsma < >>>>>>>>>>>>> tboo...@objectpath.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ** >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe early bird pricing expires July 31st. So, if the >>>>>>>>>>>>> agenda is out today or tomorrow, that is just "under the wire". >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> However, I had to make a call last week, so I registered and >>>>>>>>>>>>> paid for the conference with the understanding that I could >>>>>>>>>>>>> de-register up >>>>>>>>>>>>> to a certain date with a $75.00 "admin" fee. Well, we'll see >>>>>>>>>>>>> about that. >>>>>>>>>>>>> :-) >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Terry >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [ >>>>>>>>>>>>> mailto:...@ARSLIST.ORG] *On Behalf Of *Lynn Larsen >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* July-28-14 5:03 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> *To:* ars...@arslist.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: ENGAGE >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ** >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I’m glad I’m not alone in the trying to get approval for a >>>>>>>>>>>>> conference that we have no idea what the content is… There should >>>>>>>>>>>>> not be >>>>>>>>>>>>> “early bird” pricing that expires before the detailed agenda is >>>>>>>>>>>>> even >>>>>>>>>>>>> published, in my opinion. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [ >>>>>>>>>>>>> mailto:...@ARSLIST.ORG] *On Behalf Of *Sanford, Claire >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, July 28, 2014 3:55 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> *To:* ars...@arslist.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: ENGAGE >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ** >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> They missed one mark… in order to get a room you have to go >>>>>>>>>>>>> through their conference desk. We are adults. We should be able >>>>>>>>>>>>> to make >>>>>>>>>>>>> our own reservations. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If the conference is more “sales” than technical, there is no >>>>>>>>>>>>> way I can get approval. I’ll be disappointed if they go back to >>>>>>>>>>>>> the way it >>>>>>>>>>>>> was before it became WWRUG! >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [ >>>>>>>>>>>>> mailto:...@ARSLIST.ORG] *On Behalf Of *Jason Miller >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, July 28, 2014 3:51 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> *To:* ars...@arslist.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: ENGAGE >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ** >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree that our WWRUG friends are much better at >>>>>>>>>>>>> communicating and giving people the information they need to >>>>>>>>>>>>> decide, get >>>>>>>>>>>>> approvals and make travel arrangements than BMC. Let's just hope >>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't completely miss the mark on this conference. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 11:47 AM, David Boylan < >>>>>>>>>>>>> david_...@brown.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I still haven't seen much of what is being presented other >>>>>>>>>>>>> that lots of marketing. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this even worth going to? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> ___________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Note: This e-mail and any attachments may be privileged and >>>>>>>>>>>>> confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this >>>>>>>>>>>>> message >>>>>>>>>>>>> is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent >>>>>>>>>>>>> responsible for >>>>>>>>>>>>> delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby >>>>>>>>>>>>> notified >>>>>>>>>>>>> that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this e-mail >>>>>>>>>>>>> and any >>>>>>>>>>>>> attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this >>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail in >>>>>>>>>>>>> error, please notify us immediately by returning it to the sender >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> deleting it from your computer system. Thank you for your >>>>>>>>>>>>> cooperation. >>>>>>>>>>>>> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ >>>>>>>>>>>>> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *Tauf Chowdhury * >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Tauf Chowdhury * >>>>>>>>> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Tauf Chowdhury* >>>>>>>> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ >>>>>>> >>>>>> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Warren R. Baltimore II >>>>> Remedy Developer >>>>> 410-533-5367 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Warren R. Baltimore II >>>> Remedy Developer >>>> 410-533-5367 _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 >>>> years_ >>>> >>> >>> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ >>> >>> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ >>> >> >> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ >> > > _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ > _______________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org "Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"
