On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 1:27 AM, svaksha <svak...@gmail.com> wrote: > Am reading all the responses, including Anand's apology, so I'll reply > to those later. One at a time. > > And since you responded to my email, here goes: > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Vinayak Hegde <vinay...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > Nope. I was talking about the initial mail which lacked context. > > There you go again. See below. > > > > I think we are splitting hairs here. I don't know him and I am not taking > > sides and this is not a battle. I support more constructive methods of > > approaching these problems in the community. Thats it. YMMV. > > Are we ? Lets see, its ok for you to split hairs and call me a troll > but I cant respond? and when I do you choose to label that as > "splitting hairs"? I find your responses a lot more patronizing and > I'm happy to explain if you care to listen. The whole "telling women" > what to do, how to handle things (despite her saying she does not like > private conversation on social issues that ought to be public). There > are plenty of sexist incidents in Foss and its not my job to go in > private to educate anyone. > > > > You are entitled to your opinion and me to mine. > > Thanks. However, your repeated emails on this thread came across as > stuffing your opinions down my throat. I dont appreciate that and find > it annoying as I dislike having private conversations on bad > behaviour, unless you are a person I trust and respect - Yes, I've had > many private conversations with hackers I've never met, just > interacted online. This is just not one of those. > > > > But if people flame > > newbies / women / other under-represented groups unfairly (as you believe > > Anand did in this case), I believe there are better ways to tackle that > > IMHO. > > ...and thusfar, your suggestion has been along the lines of "go solve > this problem in private". I've been around the FOSS block far too long > to know it does not work. Never has. So, I'm curious to know why you > expect women in Foss to solve social problems in Foss communities in > private? > > Unrelated to this thread, do you realise that it can easily become a > "he said-she said" issue which does not help at all. Been there, done > that; and blogged about it too: > http://svaksha.com/category/WOMEN/SexismInSTEM > > > > > I don't know what Anand's intentions were (and hence I reserve my opinion > > as mentioned in earlier mails), but your response (#epicfail) was pretty > > explicit. > > Vinayak, there you go, _yet_ again - you choose to reserve your > opinions on his intent, but cannot stop harping or splitting hairs > over my #EpicFail hashtag, or my first mail that "lacked context", > "was pretty explicit" (which contradicts your "lacked context" claim). > Do you want me to explain more or do you not honestly see the > different (read, unequal) standards here? A pertinent read on tone > policing: > http://geekfeminism.org/2013/09/05/tone-policing-a-tool-for-protecting-male-power/ > > Btw, Vinayak, you are not alone as Sriram also wrote to me offlist - > he has said so on the list too, but forgot to mention the full > contents, and I paraphrase - ... that I'm trying to "publicly shame > Anand Pillai", then questioned me about what I hope to achieve, and > ofcourse the same old "you should talk to him in private". Having > heard all this in this thread, I didnt bother to reply. > > Since Vid has gone ahead and paraphrased on my behalf, though only part of the mails I'd sent to her:
Here's what I wrote to Svaksha when I first saw the "I love ladies.py" on the github page. I hadn't thought about checking the init files: ===== begin quote === I don't know what exactly is offensive - seems like some lame non-constructive commit by him. Seems like trying to publicly shame Anand Pillai. What exactly do you want to achieve here ? It'd have been more constructive if you were to write to him and ask him to explain himself, and then provided feedback as well as something useful for him to do. === end quote === Having seen similar names like FactoryGirl, etc in the Ruby world, and even the phrases like "Object Mother" to refer to classes that supply objects, I though Anand was going to write some new library. Later, when I saw the quoting of the source code, I realized that I should have checked the python files themselves (after all, Anand is a Python programmer). I then wrote privately to her: === begin quote === Heh, after reading other mails on this thread, I realized that I had only seen the repo name and the readme message, and not the contents of the various _init_ files. Dunno what to make of his commits! -- Ram === end quote == I then wrote to the mailing list that I'd reserve judgement until he clarified what he intended to convey. So, I wasn't in any way trying to give the "same old" treatment that Svaksha has felt that I've given this topic. In fact, I'd rather talk to her about this since I have always supported her efforts to get more women to participate actively in IT, and I believe I have some sort of rapport to draw upon to clarify any mis-communication. I'm really saddened that even though she and I have been good friends over the years, she has decided that I'm giving some sort of "same old" treatment in this case. As for Anand's code, I think we men sometimes say or do things we find absolutely fine, but may sometimes cause disillusionment and resentment in groups or communities that are already struggling regularly to be treated at par. I know this almost first hand, since one young lady whom I've been coaxing to participate in communities has stopped doing so after someone said something in her presence and she felt highly uncomfortable. "Almost first hand", since I wasn't present at the meetup that she was chaperoning on my behalf. Knowing Anand and his genuine interest in encouraging everyone to author code as well as his tendency to have sarcastic humor, I'd say he has expressed his questions in the way natural to him as a programmer, though I do think he could have asked directly. I'll leave it to him to do the right thing. -- Ram _______________________________________________ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
