The BMW UUC Digest Volume 2 : Issue 558 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: Re: English Re: English English Re: English Re: slight WOB: cracking brake rotors Re: slight WOB: cracking brake rotors Time for a new vehicle (somewhat OT) Was Aluminium, now oldish but funny "revocation"/"independence" essay (way, way OT) Re: Was Aluminium, now oldish but funny "revocation"/"independence" essay (way, way OT) E36 318i auto tranny Dialect [was: Re: English pronunciation.]
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:02:24 -0800 (PST) From: Richard Dorffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: English Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Why I am responding one more time I don't know but I will assure you it will be the last on this thread.... --- "Robinson, Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Do you hear that Gary and Kathy? We speak a form of trailer > > trash dialect being from Ohio according to Lee... > > Gary doesn't have an accent for sure (must've been nullified by the time > spent in Texas), but he does use strange & scary words like "schmancy." Gee, that makes sense, Texas nullified a potential accent... Have you heard the way our President speaks? ;-) > Actually, one thing I did notice about Ohio was the broad range exhibited > from Cincinnati, with more of a southern drawl, to Cleveland, which > definitely shares a lot of characteristics with Pittsburgh that you mention > later. Columbus is some strange mix of the 2. Hmm, I never once associated the way the people of Cleveland (or NE Ohio) as speaking like people from the Pittsburgh area. The area near the southern part of the Ohio/Pennsylvania border can have that tendency at times I suppose. My comment about "warsh" had nothing to do with Cleveland, it had to do with my parents and they only time they spend any time in Cleveland is when they go to baseball games. I bet the first 50 years of their life they didn't spend more than a week in Cleveland combined. > > Well, let's not forget, I have lived here for 33 years, I > > believe that far trumps your 18 months working here at one > > plant with fairly localized exposure. I have spent a fair > > amount of time in Georgia, I don't believe I am going to > > characterize all of them as "trailer trash rednecks" based on > > "lots of individuals that I met" while in Georgia. > > > > ;-) > > I didn't say everyone in the state spoke as such. However, I've worked in > lots of places from NY to Chicago to N.O. to LA, and the "trailer trash" > dialect is one that appears everywhere--even in our northern province, > Canada. Exactly, associating your experiences in Ohio as representative of the State of Ohio or the Midwest wasn't very fair. > > I wasn't talking about these people's generalizations, I was > > talking about yours as that is who I was responding to. > > Again, it wasn't really intended to be a generalization initially. You > purported the standardization of English spoken in the mid-west & I called > you out on it. ;) Good call, you got me... ;-) > > There is no such thing as an area without any accent/dialect, > > every region has their quirks, the Midwest generally has some > > of the least. > > I was thinking it was the New England coast, but go ahead. Sure, the people of Maryland, New Jersey, New York, etc. don't have any discernible accents or dialects... :-/ > > But, in the context of carbonated beverages which is what we > > were talking about, "pop" is shortened from "soda pop" which > > is defined as "a beverage consisting of soda water, > > flavoring, and a sweet syrup" by MW. Coke is a trademarked > > word of Coca-Cola which is a brand not unlike my previous examples. > > "Coke" narrows it down though. You're clearly not asking for Sprite, root > beer, Mt. Dew, etc. You aren't? See Rob's post on this subject, I agree with his comments on it. > > Coca-Cola surely defends their trademarks as much as any > > other company. I am sure Coca-Cola quite prefers people to > > use the word "Coke" when they refer to carbonated beverages, > > it increases brand recognition. > > Pretty clever, huh? That was my point I believe. > > Here, you can participate in this survey: > > http://www.popvssoda.com/ > > > > Regards, > > > > Rich - prefers Pepsi to Coca-Cola > > That would be 'cause yer one of them thar yankee fellers....... No, it would largely be do the fact as to my place of employment. Later, Rich ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:41:39 -0500 From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: English Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> When I was a boy in Michigan, I drank 'pop' -- probably too much. After four years at college near Philadelphia, with students from all over the country and the world, I learned to ask what sort of 'soda' an establishment carried. I still call it soda, because it's shorter than "soda pop", and who the heck ever wants soda water? Very few are confused by "soda" in that context. As to who drinks what soda and where they live... I grew up thinking Vernors was gingerale. In fact, it is a phenomenon that originates in and radiates from Detroit, Michigan. It hasn't made it very far. I realized this when I couldn't find any Vernors in the Eastern PA stores and had to settle for Canada Dry. On a related and very confusing note... my family from the Detroit area pours Vernors over ice cream in a glass and calls it a "Boston Cooler". Huh? Good luck finding Vernors in Boston. Pepsi Cola seems the sweeter to me. I prefer Coca-Cola. I was raised by two Michigan natives. I was born in Illinois and lived in North Carolina and Kentucky before I turned 8. I lived in Michigan and drank most of my 'pop' from the ages of 8 to 18. College in PA for four years, then back to Michigan. Since my return to the Midwest, no-one but my dentist has given me a hard time about drinking soda, and I think he disagrees with the habit, not the words I use to describe it. As if anyone cares... :-) - N. Jay **************************************************** > Christian Els wrote: > > What I don't get is how a beverage from North Carolina came to be > considered a Yankee delicacy. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:17:34 -0800 From: Tom Kosmalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: English Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From my dear, departed Grandmother: "Assuming they understand the meaning, polite people do not typically comment on accents, regional slang, or slight mispronunciations." Those seem like words to live by (and maybe even words to end this thread?). :-) Tom K. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:01:04 -0800 From: Kurt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: English Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:41:39 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > As to who drinks what soda and where they live... I grew up thinking > Vernors was gingerale. In fact, it is a phenomenon that originates in > and radiates from Detroit, Michigan. It hasn't made it very far. <Homer> Mmm! Vernors! </Homer> For the most part, I don't drink pop (or soda) anymore. But I will say that all other Ginger Ales are poseurs compared to Vernors. It'll grow hair on your chest. Kurt--showing Michigan roots. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:05:47 -0600 From: Clarence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Andre Yew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: slight WOB: cracking brake rotors Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Others will know more about this, but I suspect it's an anomoly. I have an E30 w/no real modifications. I had a set of OEM rotors (from the dealer) on the front for about a year of street driving before I dedicated them for track use (the idea being rotors should be well seasoned before track use); I use Hawk Blues at the track. I had several track days on the rotors w/o problems. Then during a second day at Gingerman we noticed a vibration in the steering wheel when braking hard. Inspection of the rotors showed a crack similar to yours, perhaps more pronounced. I was glad it didn't disintegrate and cause serious damage. This may be a result of uneven heating/cooling or just something that occasionally happens. Clarence West Bend, WI Andre Yew wrote: >I'm wondering if someone can help me (and a friend) out with this: when >do brake rotors which are not cross-drilled crack in 2 months of use? In >those two months were a bunch of autoX, 1 day at Laguna Seca (in the wet), >and 2 days at Buttonwillow (full config with the bus stop and Star Mazda, >clockwise), and daily street driving in the Silicon Valley area. > >Here are some pictures under the Feb. 21, 2005 entry (which should be the >top of the page): > >http://www.devtools.org/mt/rus/ > >Is this probably a freak event, or is this possible? The car is a Subaru >WRX wagon, with some engine mods, but probably not producing any more than >300 HP. Only street tires and pads (Axxis Ultimates) have been used on >it, and the suspension's been stiffened, though it's not race-stiff. Will >upgrading to a big-brake kit solve this, or could something be wrong with >the car? The rotors are from Stoptech, so I wouldn't expect them to be >bad. > >--Andre > > >Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > >__________________________________________________________________________ >In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > >UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate >Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! >908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:22:20 -0500 From: Ben Keyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: slight WOB: cracking brake rotors Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gingerman is rather tough on brakes. a stock E30 doesn't have much in the way of brakes in terms of rotor mass. add Hawk Blues which can generate nice high temps (and keep working with them that hot) and w/o ducting you could get them nice & toasty pretty quickly, so your experience isn't completely unheard of. we cooked a set of E36 325i (basically the same size as E30 M3 rotors) rotors on my car (E30 w/3.2l at that point) in about 450 miles of track driving. of course about 300 of that was with hot shoe club racers driving the snot out of it and HT-10's putting as much heat into them as possible, esp w/o ducting. Ben Clarence wrote: > I have an E30 w/no real modifications. I had a set of OEM rotors (from > the dealer) on the front for about a year of street driving before I > dedicated them for track use (the idea being rotors should be well > seasoned before track use); I use Hawk Blues at the track. I had > several track days on the rotors w/o problems. Then during a second day > at Gingerman we noticed a vibration in the steering wheel when braking > hard. Inspection of the rotors showed a crack similar to yours, perhaps > more pronounced. I was glad it didn't disintegrate and cause serious > damage. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:19:01 -0500 From: "Dennis Liu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'911/993/996'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "BMW List" <[email protected]>, "Ferrari List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Time for a new vehicle (somewhat OT) Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Yup, gotta pull the trigger, due to the imminent arrival of another baby, along with continued companionship of the world's biggest dog. While I'd much prefer a minivan (yes, a minivan, I'm secure in my masculinity), I need a big SUV instead because I need to TOW the track car with it too. :-) Decided upon a Nissan Armada/Infiniti QX56, for the combination of size, power, tow capacity and reliability. Alternative might be the 2005 Expedition (with the more powerful V-8, previously available only in Navigator), but if prices were equivalent, would prefer the Nissan. Not enamored of the Tahoe/Denali. Sequoia would be great, except it's 65 hp off. Thus, would appreciate any market info/real-world feedback, as to experiences with the Nissan. Would particularly appreciate some auction results/real pricing info (already looked at ebay results and Edmunds). Considering: 1. Armada SE 2. Armada LE 3. QX56 (only if dirt cheap, as I don't need all the frills) I can buy a new Armada at (true) invoice, so wondering what the new/used differential is these days. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Grazie, --Dennis . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:27:37 -0500 From: "Dennis Liu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Was Aluminium, now oldish but funny "revocation"/"independence" essay (way, way OT) Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Since we're spending our winter time debating points of English (which, I must say, I find pretty interesting and definitely amusing), I thought I'd pass along the following gem. It was circulated first (AFAIK) shortly after the 2000 Presidential election voting tabulation fiasco. It has since been circulated again after the 2004 election, and attributed to John Cleese (though he did not write it). _________________- NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE To the citizens of the United States of America: In the light of your failure to elect a President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective immediately. Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories. Except Utah, which she does not fancy. Your new Prime Minister (The Right Honourable Tony Blair, MP for the 97.85% of you who have until now been unaware that there is a world outside your borders) will appoint a Minister for America without the need for further elections. Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire will be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed. To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect: 1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. Then look up "aluminium." Check the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'favour' and 'neighbour'; skipping the letter 'U' is nothing more than laziness on your part. Likewise, you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half the letters. You will end your love affair with the letter 'Z' (pronounced 'zed' not 'zee') and the suffix "ize" will be replaced by the suffix "ise." You will learn that the suffix 'burgh' is pronounced 'burra' e.g. Edinburgh. You are welcome to re-spell Pittsburgh as 'Pittsberg' if you can't cope with correct pronunciation. Generally, you should raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up "vocabulary." Using the same thirty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "uhh", "like", and "you know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. Look up "interspersed." There will be no more 'bleeps' in the Jerry Springer show. If you're not old enough to cope with bad language then you shouldn't have chat shows. When you learn to develop your vocabulary, then you won't have to use bad language as often. 2. There is no such thing as "US English." We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take account of the reinstated letter 'u' and the elimination of "-ize." 3. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents. It really isn't that hard. English accents are not limited to cockney, upper-class twit or Mancunian (Daphne in Frasier). You will also have to learn how to understand regional accents --- Scottish dramas such as "Taggart" will no longer be broadcast wit h subtitles. While we're talking about regions, you must learn that there is no such place as Devonshire in England. The name of the county is "Devon." If you persist in calling it Devonshire, all American States will become "shires" e.g. Texasshire, Floridashire, Louisianashire. 4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as the good guys. Hollywood will be required to cast English actors to play English characters. British sit-coms such as "Men Behaving Badly" or "Red Dwarf" will not be re-cast and watered down for a wishy-washy American audience who can't cope with the humour of occasional political incorrectness. 5. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The Queen", but only after fully carrying out task 1. We would not want you to get confused and give up half way through. 6. You should stop playing American "football." There is only one kind of football. What you refer to as American "football" is not a very good game. The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your borders may have noticed that no one else plays "American" football. You will no longer be allowed to play it, and should instead play proper football. Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls. It is a difficult game. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which is similar to American "football", but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like nancies). We are hoping to get together at least a US Rugby sevens side by 2005. You should stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event called the 'World Series' for a game which is not played outside of America. Since only 2.15% of you are aware that there is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable. Instead of basebal l, you will be allowed to play a girls' game called "rounders," which is baseball without fancy team strip, oversized gloves, collector cards or hotdogs. 7. You will no longer be allowed to own or carry guns. You will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous in public than a vegetable peeler. Because we don't believe you are sensible enough to handle potentially dangerous items, you will require a permit if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public. 8. July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November 2nd will be a new national holiday, but only in England. It will be called "Indecisive Day." 9. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap, and it is for your own good. When we show you German cars, you will understand what we mean. All road intersections will be replaced with roundabouts. You will start driving on the left with immediate effect. At the same time, you will go metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of conversion tables. Roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour. 10. You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call 'French fries' are not real chips. Fries aren't even French, they are Belgian though 97.85% of you (including the guy who discovered fries while in Europe) are not aware of a country called Belgium. Those things you in sist on calling potato chips are properly called "crisps." Real chips are thick cut and fried in animal fat. The traditional accompaniment to chips is beer which should be served warm and flat. Waitresses will be trained to be more aggressive with customers. 11. As a sign of penance 5 grams of sea salt per cup will be added to all tea made within the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, this quantity to be doubled for tea made within the city of Boston itself. 12. The cold tasteless stuff you insist on calling "beer" is not actually beer at all, it is lager. From November 1st only proper British Bitter will be referred to as "beer," and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to as "Lager." The substances formerly known as "American Beer" will henceforth be referred to as "Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine," with the exception of the product of the American Budweiser company whose product will be referred to as "Weak Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine." This will allow true Budweiser (as manufactured for the last 1000 years in the Czech Republic) to be sold without risk of confusion. 13. From November 10th the UK will harmonise petrol (or "gasoline," as you will be permitted to keep calling it until April 1st 2005) prices with the former USA. The UK will harmonise its prices to those of the former USA and the Former USA will, in return, adopt UK petrol prices (roughly $6/US gallon -- get used to it). 14. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows that you're not adult enough to be independent. Guns should only be handled by adults. If you're not adult enough to sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, then you're not grown up enough to handle a gun. 15. Please tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us crazy. 16. Tax collectors from Her Majesty's Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all revenues due (backdated to 1776). Thank you for your co-operation. . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:51:44 -0500 From: "Dennis Liu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Was Aluminium, now oldish but funny "revocation"/"independence" essay (way, way OT) Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> And here's the reply, originally written in response to the shorter, 2000 version, so it doesn't quite line up with the expanded 2004 edition, but you can figure it out.... _______________ [The following is a reply from a few of us citizens of the United States....] ================================================== REPLY TO NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE To the people of the United Kingdom, We, the citizens of the United States of America, would like to respectfully decline your generous offer to make us once again part of the British Empire (is "empire" still the right word?). We submit the following as reasons for our decision, and hope for your own sakes that you won't give us any mierde about it (Mierde is Spanish for shit). We have not 'failed to elect a President,' we have merely had some difficulties with our somewhat archaic system of government. I would go into details, but you'd know more about the problems of archaic governments than we would. Although we appreciate Libby's kind offer to accept us into the bosom of the Empire, we do not wish to be governed by a monarchy. We grew rather bored with that once (well, ok, we tried it again with the Kennedys and you know how well _that_ went) and decided to do things differently. You remember that, don't you? I personally share her opinion about Utah, however. I wonder, how does she feel about New Jersey or Alabama? In response to your list of rules: 1. Most of us know what 'revocation', 'interspersed', and 'vocabulary' means. Do you know what 'pompous anglophile' means? As to aluminum, I'd like to note that our own pronounciation, although not aligned with your apparently undisputable tome of the English language, is a superior one. We've heard you pronouncing 'aluminium' for years (mostly on the Discovery Channel) and noted that it is both more difficult to say and takes longer. Try saying it this way: "Because aluminum was used in its fighter planes, making them lighter, America was able to save Britain's ass when it was about to be kicked again by the Germans." 2. We disagree; there is most definitely a such thing as 'US English.' If Bill Gates has proclaimed it as such, then it must be. And it must certainly be well known over in Britain, as you all apparently just LOVE American TV and movies. Jeez, even WE don't have RERUNS of the Simpsons place in the top ten telly programs every week! 3. Of course we can tell the difference between the English and the Australian accents. Most of us saw one of the Crocodile Dundee movies at least once. 4. Hollywood has cast English actors as the good guys several times -- e.g., James Bond. In fact, Bond is pretty much the only true mainstream piece of movie entertainment that England has sent along in years. It's not our fault that your way of speaking sounds evil. 5. What if we learned 'Goodbye to the Crown' by Chumbawumba instead of relearning 'God Save the Queen?' The former is much more entertaining. 6. Although American football is clearly a very different sport from its parent, rugby, and its grandparent soccer, saying it is not a very good game misses the point. And since you're such a friggin' cricket loving nation, you should talk. Speaking of playing soccer with girls, didn't our girl's soccer team just win some sort of award? I believe your team was in that competition as well. How did they fare? And for the record, stopping every 20 seconds is part of a strategic exercise that makes our football interesting. It makes the game much more of a thinking exercise, as opposed to running around chasing a ball like five year old kids. 7. Declaring war on France sounds like a great idea. Perhaps we can work together in an International effort? This would help foster trust and fellowship between our two countries, as well as ridding the world of a nuisance. Honestly, what business does France have on the UN Security Council anyway? (Although it is embarassing enough to almost have your bollocks handed to you by some third-world South American dictatorship, at least you didn't lose a war with those unwashed sandal-wearing Greenpeaceniks). 8. We'd prefer to keep that particular holiday. However, adding Indecisive Day to our list of national holidays would be great fun, to help us learn from our mistake. Maybe while we're at it you could add Dental Hygiene Day or Outdated Monarchy Day? Speaking of being indecisive, how's that whole Ireland thing coming along? 9. Sure. American cars will no longer be sold on your islands, much like how English cars are no longer sold anywhere. I'm not sure why you want it this way. You're right though, German cars are clearly superior. Too bad Germans are so weird otherwise. 10. Funny thing is, we don't actually know who killed Kennedy. We were sort of hoping you could tell us. vty, --Dennis _____________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:29:34 -0800 From: Mark Gold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: E36 318i auto tranny Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> So I was reading through the latest issue of Bimmer and they have a section dedicated to the E36. In it they mention that the 318i models came with an optional GM supplied auto tranny. My questions are the following: 1. what model GM tranny is it? 2. were all 318i models so equipped (including the ti)? 3. Were 325i/328i models equipped with a different auto tranny (like a ZF model)? The article says electronically controlled, but doesn't mention brand. The reason I ask is that I have considered getting an auto equipped E30/E36 as a daily driver (also because my wife can't drive stick). I really love the M42 motor in my cabrio for its simplicity in maintenance and thrift on gas (premium gas, however), but the '91 318i was not available with an auto tranny and many have complained about the reliability of the ZF auto in the E30 and later models of BMW as well. My experience with RWD auto tranny's from GM has been very good, all 3 RWD GM cars (all '80's model sedans) I owned prior to getting my BMW seemed to have had bullet-proof transmissions. Sincerely, Mark Gold Sacramento Chapter BMWCCA 916-852-6533 (home) 916-743-7153 (cell) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:06:37 -0500 From: "K.C. Boyce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Dialect [was: Re: English pronunciation.] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> All of this talk of English dialect reminds me of my first summer spent abroad in Germany. My host father could tell where someone was from (region, town, and often which part of town) just by their dialect and accent. Upon my return, my German teacher remanded me for speaking with a "Boyerish" (Bayerisch -> Bavarian) accent. BTW, I'm from the Midwest, and have had to change some of my language to avoid endless ribbing from my southern wife and sisters-in-law. "Pop" still gets them rolling... Of course, I'm not sure I can make generalizations about southerners from them -- they grew up in Marietta (motto: "A haven for Yankees deep in Dixie"). KC Boyce E30 Eta Page: http://www.e30eta.com '97 M3/4 ------------------------------ End of [bmwuucdigest] digest(11 messages) **********
