Thanks Herman.
Pstat looks like mfg date of 6/12; shouldn't matter but there you go.  Chris 
will give 10% discount on a new one, but still chaps my butt.

I'll try to pull the giemme cover and watch the relay--don't try this at home, 
kids!

I instinctively don't think the PID or element is bad, but will try the p-stat 
reversal thing and see where that takes me.

I'll post again in a bit.

b

Sent from my apple IIe

> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:07, herman dickens <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Ben fwiw it sounds like you have 2 problems. I had the same problem with a 
> pstat and it only lasted 2 months. The next one worked fine. There should be 
> a mfg date on the pstat. It seems like my first one was several years old and 
> the second one was this year. I was having the same symptoms with the relief 
> valve but no chatter. The chatter sounds like a relay or a solenoid. Can you 
> pull the cover off and look at the relay while the chattering is going on? 
> That might help narrow things down. You could have a bad pid or element in 
> the brew boiler causing that not to get up to temp but honestly I don't work 
> on these things enough to do anything but guess. I just bought the pid 
> upgrade for my machine but I may hold off on installing it for a few more 
> days. Maybe Todd will jump in and give you some ideas.
> Herman
> 
>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 1:57 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> 
>> wrote:
>> Hey all!
>> Hope you all had a great thanksgiving and that you're all waking from your 
>> food comas.  I had more pie for breakfast, but alas, with no espresso.
>> 
>> I will be talking to Todd soon about this, but thought I'd also ping the 
>> collective and see if anyone has any ideas.  Unfortunately, I have a 
>> collection of symptoms at this point that I can't make fit a common cause; 
>> perhaps they will make sense to one of you.
>> 
>> As you may recall, I had quite a bit of trouble this summer, and during that 
>> process I replaced:
>> 
>> --Both hi-limit switches
>> --One or both boiler elements
>> --Giemme controller board with the updated one
>> --PID temp probe
>> --Main power switch
>> --New Jaeger pressure-stat
>> 
>> Also, as with this summer's shenanigans, my mom is visiting in two weeks, 
>> and dearly loves a good latte.  I spent several hundred on overnight 
>> charges, parts, etc. while she was here in the summer, and managed 2 days of 
>> lattes for her in her three-week visit.  Hoping to get the machine back in 
>> action fast!
>> 
>> At the same time I did all that work, I totally disassembled everything, 
>> descaled completely, and cleaned the solenoid until it was shiny, i.e. all 
>> scale removed, etc.  The solenoid functioned fine with power.
>> 
>> The machine worked normally from summer until this week, but with one weird 
>> symptom.  It would occasionally make a machine-gun noise, i.e. something 
>> mechanical opening and closing very rapidly, 5-10 times per second maybe.  
>> To me, it is a higher pitched sound than the solenoid, and sounds like it 
>> originates from the area of the giemme controller.  Todd suspected the 
>> solenoid might be sticking; I was thinking perhaps one of the two relays in 
>> the giemme controller was misfiring (not sure that they are even relays--but 
>> I'm referring to the two small sets of contacts in the giemme that look like 
>> points from a points-and-condensor ignition).  At its worst, this symptom 
>> would continue for 10+ seconds and I'd shut the machine off and back on; it 
>> would seem to "reset" and stop.  At its best, it would last for a few 
>> seconds and stop on its own.  It clearly is related to when the machine goes 
>> to refill the steam boiler, i.e. when closing the steam wand, dumping hot 
>> water boiler, etc. is when this would happen, very intermittently.
>> 
>> As of a week ago, the machine-gun thing got really bad, i.e. it happens 4-5 
>> times while steaming enough milk for a latte, etc.  When shutting off the 
>> steam wand, when it goes to refill, the machine-gun noise happens every time 
>> and frequently does not stop.  As the machine sits at idle and occasionally 
>> refills the steam boiler, it also makes the noise every time.
>> 
>> At this point, it would seem to me that the culprit would be the giemme or 
>> the solenoid, but wait, there's more...
>> 
>> A few other symptoms have happened in the past week, which really confuse 
>> the issue for me, because I admittedly don't know exactly how electricity 
>> flows through the machine:
>> 
>> --The Jaeger P-stat has allowed the machine to over-pressure about 3 times 
>> in 5 months, causing the blowoff to activate.  No way this should be 
>> happening with a new p-stat, but otherwise it has been normal.  As an aside, 
>> Chris Coffee will not warrant the p-stat, stating 30 days is the warranty 
>> from that manufacturer.  So I have a 90-day-old failing part that won't be 
>> covered. Unexpected.
>> 
>> --The PID display (which I have set to 204F) has stayed at 105F for several 
>> hours each morning for about four days in a row, and then later in the day, 
>> has heated to 204F.
>> 
>> --As of two days ago, the PID heated the brew boiler to 105F and stayed 
>> there all day, never heating to 204F.
>> 
>> --Earlier this week, one day only, the PID display was blank when the 
>> machine was on.  It remained blank for about an hour, then suddenly lit up.  
>> It showed 105F.  Every time the steam boiler fired, the PID screen would 
>> flicker and get really dim, almost not visible.  Then it would brighten 
>> right back up when the steam boiler turned off.
>> 
>> --Most of the time (and this is an old thing, maybe normal), the PID numbers 
>> and "dot" will blink every few seconds, i.e. they go off for a split second, 
>> and then come back on.  The dot at this point will not stay on for more than 
>> a split second also, i.e. it never shows the boiler calling for heat once 
>> the steam boiler is off.
>> 
>> --The same day the PID display was blank and dim, there was a single time 
>> where the steam boiler filled, and then shut off (solenoid clicked), but the 
>> pump kept running indefinitely.  I finally had to turn off the machine to 
>> make it stop.  After power cycling the machine, the pump filled and stopped 
>> normally again.
>> 
>> --At this time, the steam boiler fills and heats normally, with the 
>> exception of the machine-gun noise, which happens almost every time.
>> 
>> OK--I think that's it.  I'm sorry if someone has told me this before, but 
>> I'm trying to understand first how electricity travels in the machine.  So 
>> far, the only thing that seems like a common point to all of these symptoms 
>> is the giemme controller, but that's based on my limited understanding.
>> 
>> How I *think* it works is this:  main power switch sends current to the 
>> giemme, which sends current to the pump and to the pressure stat (via the 
>> two "relays" in the giemme?).  If the steam boiler is not up to temp, the 
>> p-stat sends current to it until it is at pressure, then it sends current 
>> onward to the PID.  The PID sends that onwards in bursts via its solid-state 
>> relay to heat the brew boiler.  Meanwhile, the giemme sends current to the 
>> pump (via a relay?) and to the solenoid, so the solenoid closes, diverting 
>> water to the steam boiler, and the steam boiler fills.  When water touches 
>> the probe in the steam boiler, it essentially shorts out and stops the pump, 
>> and the solenoid opens, sending water line pressure to the brew boiler, 
>> which is held back by the group.  When the lever is lifted, the lever 
>> mechanically opens the group to let water through, and the switch behind the 
>> lever sends power to the pump to cause it to run and push water under 
>> pressure through the group.  If, while pulling a shot, the steam boiler 
>> level drops below its probe, the solenoid closes and interrupts water to the 
>> brew boiler/group until the steam boiler is filled again.
>> 
>> Does that sound about right?  Again, I would really like to understand this 
>> whole circuit, especially the giemme controller and what the two mechanical 
>> contacts are for on that board.
>> 
>> --Also, my PID is about 5-6 years old by now; what is the expected service 
>> life of those?
>> 
>> --Can I safely test the PID by reversing NO/NC terminals on the P-stat?  
>> Wouldn't that have the effect of prioritizing the PID first?
>> 
>> OK, I'll stop.  Enjoy your leftovers, and have a good coffee for me!
>> 
>> best,
>> Ben McC
>> Sent from my apple IIe
>> 
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