Thanks Herman, I think I have that and will look. I agree, find where the voltage is missing, but I’m not sure what is “normal” for the solid state relay, etc. Definitely have 120 there, and also at some of the PID display unit. Need to see where it’s *supposed* to be going but isn’t, if that makes sense. b
> On Nov 27, 2015, at 1:13 PM, herman dickens <[email protected]> wrote: > > just find out where the voltage is dropping. If you have 114 coming out of > the pressurestat at both point you know it's not that. That takes care of > half the machine. there's a wiring diagram on the brewtus compendium, I found > it after I posted, and it shows how everything is routed. If you don't have a > copy I can email one to you. > Herman > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:09 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > OK--making some progress. I was looking at it backwards. > > The com/1 wire comes FROM the giemme as you said, Herman--so there is 114V at > the giemme, and 114V at the com/1 on the pstat. So that part is OK. I had > the pstat backwards in my mind--so as would be expected, the normally > closed/2 terminal on the pstat has 114V when steam is heating, so that part > of the pstat is ok. That red wire goes to the high-limit on the steam > boiler, and then on to the steam element. The far side of the steam high > limit has 114V also, so that part is also OK. Since the steam boiler heats, > I'll call that empirical evidence that the steam element is fine (albeit > somewhat slow). > > When the steam boiler light turns off, the voltage at NC/2 drops to 0, as > expected, and voltage at 4/NO jumps to 114V. The wire from 4/NO goes to the > solid state relay 1/L1, and when the steam boiler shuts off, 1/L1 goes to > 118V (assume I'm just seeing fluctuation in line voltage--readings have > varied from 113-119V throughout). > > On the relay, 2/T1 is at 0V, and 3/A1 and 4/A2 are at 118V. The PID display > is flickering and dimming now independent of the steam boiler's operation. > > 2/T1 is the wire that goes to the high-limit on the brew boiler, and then on > to the brew element. So I think Todd's previous email to me is correct, that > we're looking at either PID or solid-state relay. At least I've now traced > 120V all the way from the giemme to the relay; from there I'll have to see if > there is a way to diagnose each part independently. > > Still doesn't explain the chatter of the solenoid, unless that power comes > from the relay or PID, and then if the PID was failing it could be sending > bogus voltage, i.e. interrupted or whatever. But there is a terminal on the > giemme for "bomba" (pump) and so I've always thought that the pump's power > came from the giemme. > > Closer, but still puzzling a bit. > > b > > Sent from my apple IIe > > On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:15, herman dickens <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > >> I think that the pstat gets line voltage from the controller and then sends >> it to the steam or brew boiler from there. I think it's a white wire and the >> voltage there should be 120. it should also output the same voltage to >> either the brew or steam boiler depending on which is calling for it. >> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 3:07 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> So riddle me this, Batman--does power come FROM the solid state relay, TO >> the p-stat--or the other way around? If the former, then seems the relay is >> the culprit since the PID probably doesn't handle line voltage to the >> boiler, right? >> >> I'll see if I can check input to the relay. >> >> b >> >> Sent from my apple IIe >> >> On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:04, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >>> At the rocker switch is 112.9. At the outer two terminals of the PID with >>> the negative held to a ground bolt on the case is 113.2. Center two >>> terminals of the PID are 4 or less. >>> >>> Good thought on the ground, I'll check. That was the culprit on old BMW >>> motorcycles more times than not... >>> b >>> >>> Sent from my apple IIe >>> >>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:55, herman dickens <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>>> You could have a loose wire, but I doubt it. What's the voltage going into >>>> the pid? You could also have a bad ground. I've had that happen on other >>>> things and it causes the power to be all over the place. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> OK, update. >>>> >>>> When I turn on the machine, I put a voltmeter across the pstat terminals. >>>> While the steam boiler was heating, terminals 1/com and 4/no show 60 >>>> volts. 1 and 2 of course show nothing. If I reverse wires 2/nc and 4/no, >>>> then cross pstat terminals 1 and 4, I get 120V. Switching them back to >>>> their normal configuration, once the steam boiler is heated and switched >>>> off, crossing 1 and 2 shows 120V. >>>> >>>> Now this is interesting. I had suggested to Todd that the flickering of >>>> the PID and the machine-gun thing make me thing of an under-current >>>> situation, i.e. not enough power to make the relay fire crisply and all >>>> the way. I have also notice lately (though it didn't occur to me as to >>>> why), that my steam boiler is being outrun when I steam milk. Lastly, it >>>> took forever for the vacuum breaker to seal shut just now; and it makes >>>> sense since the steam element is only getting 60V. >>>> >>>> So now the question becomes, why is reduced voltage happening on this one >>>> wire? It goes to the solid state relay on terminal 1/L1. >>>> >>>> b >>>> >>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>> >>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:24, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Likewise. It did occur to me that the pstat relies on a flexible rubber >>>>> diaphragm; perhaps that has hardened over time as it sat on a shelf for >>>>> three years. Pinging Chris again; also, he had offered 20%, not 10%, my >>>>> mistake. >>>>> Talk soon, >>>>> bmc >>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:17, herman dickens <[email protected] >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> It seems like mine was around that date too. The second new one says >>>>>> 4/15. They could have had a bad run of pstats or it could just be bad >>>>>> luck. My last pstat lasted almost 8 years. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>> Thanks Herman. >>>>>> Pstat looks like mfg date of 6/12; shouldn't matter but there you go. >>>>>> Chris will give 10% discount on a new one, but still chaps my butt. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'll try to pull the giemme cover and watch the relay--don't try this at >>>>>> home, kids! >>>>>> >>>>>> I instinctively don't think the PID or element is bad, but will try the >>>>>> p-stat reversal thing and see where that takes me. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'll post again in a bit. >>>>>> >>>>>> b >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:07, herman dickens <[email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Ben fwiw it sounds like you have 2 problems. I had the same problem >>>>>>> with a pstat and it only lasted 2 months. The next one worked fine. >>>>>>> There should be a mfg date on the pstat. It seems like my first one was >>>>>>> several years old and the second one was this year. I was having the >>>>>>> same symptoms with the relief valve but no chatter. The chatter sounds >>>>>>> like a relay or a solenoid. Can you pull the cover off and look at the >>>>>>> relay while the chattering is going on? That might help narrow things >>>>>>> down. You could have a bad pid or element in the brew boiler causing >>>>>>> that not to get up to temp but honestly I don't work on these things >>>>>>> enough to do anything but guess. I just bought the pid upgrade for my >>>>>>> machine but I may hold off on installing it for a few more days. Maybe >>>>>>> Todd will jump in and give you some ideas. >>>>>>> Herman >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 1:57 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected] >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>>> Hey all! >>>>>>> Hope you all had a great thanksgiving and that you're all waking from >>>>>>> your food comas. I had more pie for breakfast, but alas, with no >>>>>>> espresso. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I will be talking to Todd soon about this, but thought I'd also ping >>>>>>> the collective and see if anyone has any ideas. Unfortunately, I have >>>>>>> a collection of symptoms at this point that I can't make fit a common >>>>>>> cause; perhaps they will make sense to one of you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As you may recall, I had quite a bit of trouble this summer, and during >>>>>>> that process I replaced: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Both hi-limit switches >>>>>>> --One or both boiler elements >>>>>>> --Giemme controller board with the updated one >>>>>>> --PID temp probe >>>>>>> --Main power switch >>>>>>> --New Jaeger pressure-stat >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, as with this summer's shenanigans, my mom is visiting in two >>>>>>> weeks, and dearly loves a good latte. I spent several hundred on >>>>>>> overnight charges, parts, etc. while she was here in the summer, and >>>>>>> managed 2 days of lattes for her in her three-week visit. Hoping to >>>>>>> get the machine back in action fast! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At the same time I did all that work, I totally disassembled >>>>>>> everything, descaled completely, and cleaned the solenoid until it was >>>>>>> shiny, i.e. all scale removed, etc. The solenoid functioned fine with >>>>>>> power. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The machine worked normally from summer until this week, but with one >>>>>>> weird symptom. It would occasionally make a machine-gun noise, i.e. >>>>>>> something mechanical opening and closing very rapidly, 5-10 times per >>>>>>> second maybe. To me, it is a higher pitched sound than the solenoid, >>>>>>> and sounds like it originates from the area of the giemme controller. >>>>>>> Todd suspected the solenoid might be sticking; I was thinking perhaps >>>>>>> one of the two relays in the giemme controller was misfiring (not sure >>>>>>> that they are even relays--but I'm referring to the two small sets of >>>>>>> contacts in the giemme that look like points from a >>>>>>> points-and-condensor ignition). At its worst, this symptom would >>>>>>> continue for 10+ seconds and I'd shut the machine off and back on; it >>>>>>> would seem to "reset" and stop. At its best, it would last for a few >>>>>>> seconds and stop on its own. It clearly is related to when the machine >>>>>>> goes to refill the steam boiler, i.e. when closing the steam wand, >>>>>>> dumping hot water boiler, etc. is when this would happen, very >>>>>>> intermittently. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As of a week ago, the machine-gun thing got really bad, i.e. it happens >>>>>>> 4-5 times while steaming enough milk for a latte, etc. When shutting >>>>>>> off the steam wand, when it goes to refill, the machine-gun noise >>>>>>> happens every time and frequently does not stop. As the machine sits >>>>>>> at idle and occasionally refills the steam boiler, it also makes the >>>>>>> noise every time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At this point, it would seem to me that the culprit would be the giemme >>>>>>> or the solenoid, but wait, there's more... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A few other symptoms have happened in the past week, which really >>>>>>> confuse the issue for me, because I admittedly don't know exactly how >>>>>>> electricity flows through the machine: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --The Jaeger P-stat has allowed the machine to over-pressure about 3 >>>>>>> times in 5 months, causing the blowoff to activate. No way this should >>>>>>> be happening with a new p-stat, but otherwise it has been normal. As >>>>>>> an aside, Chris Coffee will not warrant the p-stat, stating 30 days is >>>>>>> the warranty from that manufacturer. So I have a 90-day-old failing >>>>>>> part that won't be covered. Unexpected. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --The PID display (which I have set to 204F) has stayed at 105F for >>>>>>> several hours each morning for about four days in a row, and then later >>>>>>> in the day, has heated to 204F. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --As of two days ago, the PID heated the brew boiler to 105F and stayed >>>>>>> there all day, never heating to 204F. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Earlier this week, one day only, the PID display was blank when the >>>>>>> machine was on. It remained blank for about an hour, then suddenly lit >>>>>>> up. It showed 105F. Every time the steam boiler fired, the PID screen >>>>>>> would flicker and get really dim, almost not visible. Then it would >>>>>>> brighten right back up when the steam boiler turned off. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Most of the time (and this is an old thing, maybe normal), the PID >>>>>>> numbers and "dot" will blink every few seconds, i.e. they go off for a >>>>>>> split second, and then come back on. The dot at this point will not >>>>>>> stay on for more than a split second also, i.e. it never shows the >>>>>>> boiler calling for heat once the steam boiler is off. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --The same day the PID display was blank and dim, there was a single >>>>>>> time where the steam boiler filled, and then shut off (solenoid >>>>>>> clicked), but the pump kept running indefinitely. I finally had to >>>>>>> turn off the machine to make it stop. After power cycling the machine, >>>>>>> the pump filled and stopped normally again. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --At this time, the steam boiler fills and heats normally, with the >>>>>>> exception of the machine-gun noise, which happens almost every time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OK--I think that's it. I'm sorry if someone has told me this before, >>>>>>> but I'm trying to understand first how electricity travels in the >>>>>>> machine. So far, the only thing that seems like a common point to all >>>>>>> of these symptoms is the giemme controller, but that's based on my >>>>>>> limited understanding. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How I *think* it works is this: main power switch sends current to the >>>>>>> giemme, which sends current to the pump and to the pressure stat (via >>>>>>> the two "relays" in the giemme?). If the steam boiler is not up to >>>>>>> temp, the p-stat sends current to it until it is at pressure, then it >>>>>>> sends current onward to the PID. The PID sends that onwards in bursts >>>>>>> via its solid-state relay to heat the brew boiler. Meanwhile, the >>>>>>> giemme sends current to the pump (via a relay?) and to the solenoid, so >>>>>>> the solenoid closes, diverting water to the steam boiler, and the steam >>>>>>> boiler fills. When water touches the probe in the steam boiler, it >>>>>>> essentially shorts out and stops the pump, and the solenoid opens, >>>>>>> sending water line pressure to the brew boiler, which is held back by >>>>>>> the group. When the lever is lifted, the lever mechanically opens the >>>>>>> group to let water through, and the switch behind the lever sends power >>>>>>> to the pump to cause it to run and push water under pressure through >>>>>>> the group. If, while pulling a shot, the steam boiler level drops >>>>>>> below its probe, the solenoid closes and interrupts water to the brew >>>>>>> boiler/group until the steam boiler is filled again. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does that sound about right? Again, I would really like to understand >>>>>>> this whole circuit, especially the giemme controller and what the two >>>>>>> mechanical contacts are for on that board. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Also, my PID is about 5-6 years old by now; what is the expected >>>>>>> service life of those? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Can I safely test the PID by reversing NO/NC terminals on the P-stat? >>>>>>> Wouldn't that have the effect of prioritizing the PID first? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OK, I'll stop. Enjoy your leftovers, and have a good coffee for me! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> best, >>>>>>> Ben McC >>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to [email protected] >>>>>>> <mailto:brewtus%[email protected]>. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus >>>>>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus>. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to [email protected] >>>>>>> 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