So riddle me this, Batman--does power come FROM the solid state relay, TO the p-stat--or the other way around? If the former, then seems the relay is the culprit since the PID probably doesn't handle line voltage to the boiler, right?
I'll see if I can check input to the relay. b Sent from my apple IIe > On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:04, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> wrote: > > At the rocker switch is 112.9. At the outer two terminals of the PID with > the negative held to a ground bolt on the case is 113.2. Center two > terminals of the PID are 4 or less. > > Good thought on the ground, I'll check. That was the culprit on old BMW > motorcycles more times than not... > b > > Sent from my apple IIe > >> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:55, herman dickens <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> You could have a loose wire, but I doubt it. What's the voltage going into >> the pid? You could also have a bad ground. I've had that happen on other >> things and it causes the power to be all over the place. >> >>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> OK, update. >>> >>> When I turn on the machine, I put a voltmeter across the pstat terminals. >>> While the steam boiler was heating, terminals 1/com and 4/no show 60 volts. >>> 1 and 2 of course show nothing. If I reverse wires 2/nc and 4/no, then >>> cross pstat terminals 1 and 4, I get 120V. Switching them back to their >>> normal configuration, once the steam boiler is heated and switched off, >>> crossing 1 and 2 shows 120V. >>> >>> Now this is interesting. I had suggested to Todd that the flickering of >>> the PID and the machine-gun thing make me thing of an under-current >>> situation, i.e. not enough power to make the relay fire crisply and all the >>> way. I have also notice lately (though it didn't occur to me as to why), >>> that my steam boiler is being outrun when I steam milk. Lastly, it took >>> forever for the vacuum breaker to seal shut just now; and it makes sense >>> since the steam element is only getting 60V. >>> >>> So now the question becomes, why is reduced voltage happening on this one >>> wire? It goes to the solid state relay on terminal 1/L1. >>> >>> b >>> >>> Sent from my apple IIe >>> >>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:24, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Likewise. It did occur to me that the pstat relies on a flexible rubber >>>> diaphragm; perhaps that has hardened over time as it sat on a shelf for >>>> three years. Pinging Chris again; also, he had offered 20%, not 10%, my >>>> mistake. >>>> Talk soon, >>>> bmc >>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>> >>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:17, herman dickens <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> It seems like mine was around that date too. The second new one says >>>>> 4/15. They could have had a bad run of pstats or it could just be bad >>>>> luck. My last pstat lasted almost 8 years. >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Thanks Herman. >>>>>> Pstat looks like mfg date of 6/12; shouldn't matter but there you go. >>>>>> Chris will give 10% discount on a new one, but still chaps my butt. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'll try to pull the giemme cover and watch the relay--don't try this at >>>>>> home, kids! >>>>>> >>>>>> I instinctively don't think the PID or element is bad, but will try the >>>>>> p-stat reversal thing and see where that takes me. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'll post again in a bit. >>>>>> >>>>>> b >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:07, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ben fwiw it sounds like you have 2 problems. I had the same problem >>>>>>> with a pstat and it only lasted 2 months. The next one worked fine. >>>>>>> There should be a mfg date on the pstat. It seems like my first one was >>>>>>> several years old and the second one was this year. I was having the >>>>>>> same symptoms with the relief valve but no chatter. The chatter sounds >>>>>>> like a relay or a solenoid. Can you pull the cover off and look at the >>>>>>> relay while the chattering is going on? That might help narrow things >>>>>>> down. You could have a bad pid or element in the brew boiler causing >>>>>>> that not to get up to temp but honestly I don't work on these things >>>>>>> enough to do anything but guess. I just bought the pid upgrade for my >>>>>>> machine but I may hold off on installing it for a few more days. Maybe >>>>>>> Todd will jump in and give you some ideas. >>>>>>> Herman >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 1:57 PM, Benjamin McCafferty >>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> Hey all! >>>>>>>> Hope you all had a great thanksgiving and that you're all waking from >>>>>>>> your food comas. I had more pie for breakfast, but alas, with no >>>>>>>> espresso. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I will be talking to Todd soon about this, but thought I'd also ping >>>>>>>> the collective and see if anyone has any ideas. Unfortunately, I have >>>>>>>> a collection of symptoms at this point that I can't make fit a common >>>>>>>> cause; perhaps they will make sense to one of you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As you may recall, I had quite a bit of trouble this summer, and >>>>>>>> during that process I replaced: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --Both hi-limit switches >>>>>>>> --One or both boiler elements >>>>>>>> --Giemme controller board with the updated one >>>>>>>> --PID temp probe >>>>>>>> --Main power switch >>>>>>>> --New Jaeger pressure-stat >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also, as with this summer's shenanigans, my mom is visiting in two >>>>>>>> weeks, and dearly loves a good latte. I spent several hundred on >>>>>>>> overnight charges, parts, etc. while she was here in the summer, and >>>>>>>> managed 2 days of lattes for her in her three-week visit. Hoping to >>>>>>>> get the machine back in action fast! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At the same time I did all that work, I totally disassembled >>>>>>>> everything, descaled completely, and cleaned the solenoid until it was >>>>>>>> shiny, i.e. all scale removed, etc. The solenoid functioned fine with >>>>>>>> power. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The machine worked normally from summer until this week, but with one >>>>>>>> weird symptom. It would occasionally make a machine-gun noise, i.e. >>>>>>>> something mechanical opening and closing very rapidly, 5-10 times per >>>>>>>> second maybe. To me, it is a higher pitched sound than the solenoid, >>>>>>>> and sounds like it originates from the area of the giemme controller. >>>>>>>> Todd suspected the solenoid might be sticking; I was thinking perhaps >>>>>>>> one of the two relays in the giemme controller was misfiring (not sure >>>>>>>> that they are even relays--but I'm referring to the two small sets of >>>>>>>> contacts in the giemme that look like points from a >>>>>>>> points-and-condensor ignition). At its worst, this symptom would >>>>>>>> continue for 10+ seconds and I'd shut the machine off and back on; it >>>>>>>> would seem to "reset" and stop. At its best, it would last for a few >>>>>>>> seconds and stop on its own. It clearly is related to when the >>>>>>>> machine goes to refill the steam boiler, i.e. when closing the steam >>>>>>>> wand, dumping hot water boiler, etc. is when this would happen, very >>>>>>>> intermittently. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As of a week ago, the machine-gun thing got really bad, i.e. it >>>>>>>> happens 4-5 times while steaming enough milk for a latte, etc. When >>>>>>>> shutting off the steam wand, when it goes to refill, the machine-gun >>>>>>>> noise happens every time and frequently does not stop. As the machine >>>>>>>> sits at idle and occasionally refills the steam boiler, it also makes >>>>>>>> the noise every time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At this point, it would seem to me that the culprit would be the >>>>>>>> giemme or the solenoid, but wait, there's more... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A few other symptoms have happened in the past week, which really >>>>>>>> confuse the issue for me, because I admittedly don't know exactly how >>>>>>>> electricity flows through the machine: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --The Jaeger P-stat has allowed the machine to over-pressure about 3 >>>>>>>> times in 5 months, causing the blowoff to activate. No way this >>>>>>>> should be happening with a new p-stat, but otherwise it has been >>>>>>>> normal. As an aside, Chris Coffee will not warrant the p-stat, >>>>>>>> stating 30 days is the warranty from that manufacturer. So I have a >>>>>>>> 90-day-old failing part that won't be covered. Unexpected. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --The PID display (which I have set to 204F) has stayed at 105F for >>>>>>>> several hours each morning for about four days in a row, and then >>>>>>>> later in the day, has heated to 204F. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --As of two days ago, the PID heated the brew boiler to 105F and >>>>>>>> stayed there all day, never heating to 204F. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --Earlier this week, one day only, the PID display was blank when the >>>>>>>> machine was on. It remained blank for about an hour, then suddenly >>>>>>>> lit up. It showed 105F. Every time the steam boiler fired, the PID >>>>>>>> screen would flicker and get really dim, almost not visible. Then it >>>>>>>> would brighten right back up when the steam boiler turned off. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --Most of the time (and this is an old thing, maybe normal), the PID >>>>>>>> numbers and "dot" will blink every few seconds, i.e. they go off for a >>>>>>>> split second, and then come back on. The dot at this point will not >>>>>>>> stay on for more than a split second also, i.e. it never shows the >>>>>>>> boiler calling for heat once the steam boiler is off. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --The same day the PID display was blank and dim, there was a single >>>>>>>> time where the steam boiler filled, and then shut off (solenoid >>>>>>>> clicked), but the pump kept running indefinitely. I finally had to >>>>>>>> turn off the machine to make it stop. After power cycling the >>>>>>>> machine, the pump filled and stopped normally again. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --At this time, the steam boiler fills and heats normally, with the >>>>>>>> exception of the machine-gun noise, which happens almost every time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OK--I think that's it. I'm sorry if someone has told me this before, >>>>>>>> but I'm trying to understand first how electricity travels in the >>>>>>>> machine. So far, the only thing that seems like a common point to all >>>>>>>> of these symptoms is the giemme controller, but that's based on my >>>>>>>> limited understanding. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How I *think* it works is this: main power switch sends current to >>>>>>>> the giemme, which sends current to the pump and to the pressure stat >>>>>>>> (via the two "relays" in the giemme?). If the steam boiler is not up >>>>>>>> to temp, the p-stat sends current to it until it is at pressure, then >>>>>>>> it sends current onward to the PID. The PID sends that onwards in >>>>>>>> bursts via its solid-state relay to heat the brew boiler. Meanwhile, >>>>>>>> the giemme sends current to the pump (via a relay?) and to the >>>>>>>> solenoid, so the solenoid closes, diverting water to the steam boiler, >>>>>>>> and the steam boiler fills. When water touches the probe in the steam >>>>>>>> boiler, it essentially shorts out and stops the pump, and the solenoid >>>>>>>> opens, sending water line pressure to the brew boiler, which is held >>>>>>>> back by the group. When the lever is lifted, the lever mechanically >>>>>>>> opens the group to let water through, and the switch behind the lever >>>>>>>> sends power to the pump to cause it to run and push water under >>>>>>>> pressure through the group. If, while pulling a shot, the steam >>>>>>>> boiler level drops below its probe, the solenoid closes and interrupts >>>>>>>> water to the brew boiler/group until the steam boiler is filled again. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does that sound about right? Again, I would really like to understand >>>>>>>> this whole circuit, especially the giemme controller and what the two >>>>>>>> mechanical contacts are for on that board. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --Also, my PID is about 5-6 years old by now; what is the expected >>>>>>>> service life of those? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --Can I safely test the PID by reversing NO/NC terminals on the >>>>>>>> P-stat? Wouldn't that have the effect of prioritizing the PID first? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OK, I'll stop. Enjoy your leftovers, and have a good coffee for me! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> best, >>>>>>>> Ben McC >>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "Brewtus" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Brewtus" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Brewtus" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Brewtus" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Brewtus" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Brewtus" group. 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