See? I gave the thread an appropriate subject!
On Thu, 31 Jan 2002, Baardwijk, J. van DTO/SLWPD/RZO/BOZO wrote:
>
> Eileen is primary listowner, so in a way you could see her as "the boss".
> When you are at work, would you want to hear from your boss continuously,
> commenting on your work? Personally, I hold the position that the less I see
> and hear my boss, the better it is.
This comparison is utterly false. As the primary listowner, Eileen is its
sponsor at Cornell, and as I understand it she does this as a favor to
Brin-L and to Hector Yee. Of course, in a de facto sense, she has the
power to pull the plug on Brin-L if she decides that sponsoring is too
much trouble. But, as Dan pointed out, other brinellers could certainly
take the daily administrative chores off her shoulders if she doesn't want
them.
Regardless, having the power to pull the plug does not make Eileen "the
boss," unless she chooses to use her power as a means of coercion, in
which case Brin-L is pretty much dead OR needs to find a new server. I
strongly doubt that her recent warning to John indicates that she's
suddenly decided she wants to be a full time "boss," however, so
until she offers us a fuller explanation I feel we shouldn't
make any judgements on that score.
Eileen, please feel free to step in and correct me at any time.
Oh, and because Eileen is not "the boss" in the sense you're arguing,
Jeroen, I'd love to hear more of her on-list in the course of ordinary
discussion. Conversely, by your reasoning, IF you are also a "boss," or a
co-boss, as you describe, then the rest of us should want very much to see
and hear a whole lot less of YOU.
> I am slowly getting angry with people like you and Gautam. To whom did you
> turn a few years ago when some guy was throwing obscenities around on this
> list? The listowners, because they are the ones that could ban him. Who do
> you turn to when you have a problem with your subscription ("Help! I can not
> send messages to the List!")? The listowners, because they are the ones who
> can (and do) solve the problem for you.
Solving the problem doesn't make you the police, Jeroen. Nobody has
deputized you. On Brin-L listowners are not moderators (not the last time
I looked, anyway) and they are not the police -- they are mechanics. They
handle the technical chores underpinning the list's operation. And
just as the mechanic who keeps your car running doesn't get to
determine and enforce traffic laws for himself, neither does a
listowner.
We should all be grateful for the work you and Julia and Eileen do to keep
the list running on the technical side, but that in no way translates into
granting any of you any kind of unilateral regulatory authority. If it's
unfair to make just a couple of people be listowners because of the work
involved, then I'm sure that we as a list can come up with a way to spread
the work around. "Many hands make work light."
The Brin-L I joined is based on the premise that the members can
collectively be the constables, judges, and jury for the purpose of handling
any problem. The listowner may run the command to unsubscribe an
incorrigible offender, but he or she does not get to define for him or
herself what constitutes an incorrigible offense.
> But now, when we perform one of our other duties (pointing out to a poster
> that he needs to clean up his act), we get accused of issuing "threats",
> intimidation, and being on our way to become listowners from Hell. If we
> were all that, we would not even have bothered to tell you anything but
> would have simply banned John. But that is not the way we work.
The "duty" you describe does not accrue to you as a listowner. It's a
duty and a right that accrues to all members. Like anyone else you
certainly have the right to contact John off-list or on and say, "Hey,
this is going too far. Please stop." And you certainly have the right call
on-list for a referendum: "Hey, can we all agree that John's exceeding good
manners in this case?" or some such, after which we'd all discuss where the
boundary line of good manners lies, and we'd all (John included, I'm sure)
incorporate this understanding into our future behavior. And of course you
have the right to talk to anyone you want to get their opinions or to solicit
their support for your point of view. None of this makes you a cop, and none
of these rights are yours alone as listowner. So enough with the "police"
crap, OK? Because that's not what you are.
Also: who's "we," kemosabe? Eileen's brief warning (based on hitherto
undefined criteria) to John aside, the only listowner declaring himself a
cop is YOU. Julia's only words so far on the subject suggests that she
doesn't want listowners to be cops any more than Dr. Brin did, and so far
Eileen's feelings on the broader subject remain unknown. Until the three of
you issue some kind of joint communique, please don't talk as though you
represent some kind of official listowner consensus. As far as I can tell,
you don't.
> Now, go stand over there in the corner, face towards the wall, and bow your
> head in shame.
No, sir.
Marvin Long
Austin, Texas
