----- Original Message -----
From: "Marvin Long, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:32 PM
Subject: List Administration & Etiquette
>
> See? I gave the thread an appropriate subject!
>
> On Thu, 31 Jan 2002, Baardwijk, J. van DTO/SLWPD/RZO/BOZO wrote:
> >
> > Eileen is primary listowner, so in a way you could see her as "the
boss".
> > When you are at work, would you want to hear from your boss
continuously,
> > commenting on your work? Personally, I hold the position that the less I
see
> > and hear my boss, the better it is.
>
> This comparison is utterly false. As the primary listowner, Eileen is its
> sponsor at Cornell, and as I understand it she does this as a favor to
> Brin-L and to Hector Yee. Of course, in a de facto sense, she has the
> power to pull the plug on Brin-L if she decides that sponsoring is too
> much trouble. But, as Dan pointed out, other brinellers could certainly
> take the daily administrative chores off her shoulders if she doesn't want
> them.
>
> Regardless, having the power to pull the plug does not make Eileen "the
> boss," unless she chooses to use her power as a means of coercion, in
> which case Brin-L is pretty much dead OR needs to find a new server. I
> strongly doubt that her recent warning to John indicates that she's
> suddenly decided she wants to be a full time "boss," however, so
> until she offers us a fuller explanation I feel we shouldn't
> make any judgements on that score.
>
> Eileen, please feel free to step in and correct me at any time.
>
> Oh, and because Eileen is not "the boss" in the sense you're arguing,
> Jeroen, I'd love to hear more of her on-list in the course of ordinary
> discussion. Conversely, by your reasoning, IF you are also a "boss," or a
> co-boss, as you describe, then the rest of us should want very much to see
> and hear a whole lot less of YOU.
>
> > I am slowly getting angry with people like you and Gautam. To whom did
you
> > turn a few years ago when some guy was throwing obscenities around on
this
> > list? The listowners, because they are the ones that could ban him. Who
do
> > you turn to when you have a problem with your subscription ("Help! I can
not
> > send messages to the List!")? The listowners, because they are the ones
who
> > can (and do) solve the problem for you.
>
> Solving the problem doesn't make you the police, Jeroen. Nobody has
> deputized you. On Brin-L listowners are not moderators (not the last time
> I looked, anyway) and they are not the police -- they are mechanics. They
> handle the technical chores underpinning the list's operation. And
> just as the mechanic who keeps your car running doesn't get to
> determine and enforce traffic laws for himself, neither does a
> listowner.
>
> We should all be grateful for the work you and Julia and Eileen do to keep
> the list running on the technical side, but that in no way translates into
> granting any of you any kind of unilateral regulatory authority. If it's
> unfair to make just a couple of people be listowners because of the work
> involved, then I'm sure that we as a list can come up with a way to spread
> the work around. "Many hands make work light."
>
> The Brin-L I joined is based on the premise that the members can
> collectively be the constables, judges, and jury for the purpose of
handling
> any problem. The listowner may run the command to unsubscribe an
> incorrigible offender, but he or she does not get to define for him or
> herself what constitutes an incorrigible offense.
>
> > But now, when we perform one of our other duties (pointing out to a
poster
> > that he needs to clean up his act), we get accused of issuing "threats",
> > intimidation, and being on our way to become listowners from Hell. If we
> > were all that, we would not even have bothered to tell you anything but
> > would have simply banned John. But that is not the way we work.
>
> The "duty" you describe does not accrue to you as a listowner. It's a
> duty and a right that accrues to all members. Like anyone else you
> certainly have the right to contact John off-list or on and say, "Hey,
> this is going too far. Please stop." And you certainly have the right
call
> on-list for a referendum: "Hey, can we all agree that John's exceeding
good
> manners in this case?" or some such, after which we'd all discuss where
the
> boundary line of good manners lies, and we'd all (John included, I'm sure)
> incorporate this understanding into our future behavior. And of course
you
> have the right to talk to anyone you want to get their opinions or to
solicit
> their support for your point of view. None of this makes you a cop, and
none
> of these rights are yours alone as listowner. So enough with the "police"
> crap, OK? Because that's not what you are.
>
> Also: who's "we," kemosabe? Eileen's brief warning (based on hitherto
> undefined criteria) to John aside, the only listowner declaring himself a
> cop is YOU. Julia's only words so far on the subject suggests that she
> doesn't want listowners to be cops any more than Dr. Brin did, and so far
> Eileen's feelings on the broader subject remain unknown. Until the three
of
> you issue some kind of joint communique, please don't talk as though you
> represent some kind of official listowner consensus. As far as I can
tell,
> you don't.
>
> > Now, go stand over there in the corner, face towards the wall, and bow
your
> > head in shame.
>
> No, sir.
>
Proposals:
1 I retract my statement saying John and Jeroen are interchangeable as I
dont think John would stoop so low.
2 I nominate Marvin as the first Saint in Brin-L
3 I suggest Jeroen stop and think about what we are saying and why we are
saying it. Please friend.
4 There is no 4
xponent
Who Gave That Asshole A Corncob Maru
rob
