--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > As to Gautam's list. He lists Pedro, Maddux (who has > really done well in post season) Clemons and Seaver. > Thus the 4 greatest picthers have all pitched in the > past 20 years and three are active simultaneously. > What are the odds of that? Baseball has been around > for over 100 years and its 3 greatest pitchers are > active at the same time. Maybe we have a bit of > selection bias here? Others have had lists. SI had a > list of greatest athletes of the 20th century. There > was one pitcher Koufax. No one seriously argued > about this.
I did. I think that was ridiculous. If you think Sandy Koufax was the best pitcher of all time, you're simply wrong. There is no serious argument for this. If you think he was the most dominant pitcher on a per-game basis you're also wrong, but at least you have a case and we can talk about it. Arguing that he was better than Seaver or Clemens is foolish. He didn't pitch for long enough. Now, I _don't know_ if Walter Johnson or Cy Young was better than Clemens or Seaver. My guess is that they weren't - I have a "moderns" bias, which puts me in a contentious, but respectable, position in the sabermetric community. I believe that the modern game is so much more difficult (particularly for pitchers, but true for everyone) than the older game that when there is a close call, the tie goes to the modern player. But even if you don't believe this, he still wasn't the best pitcher ever, or even (quite possibly) of his era. But it's just too hard to compare them. But if he isn't the best pitcher since the Second World War, he _certainly_ isn't the best pitcher ever, which is why I talked about post-war pitchers. Note that Pedro is clearly not the best pitcher ever either. The most dominant on a per-game basis? Probably yes. But not the best ever. Too many injuries, too short a career. But as for all your post season arm waving, Bob. Tell me - how many pitches per game did Koufax throw? In a very tough game, probably 120. Pitches per game has gone up year after year after year with the inevitability of the tides. So if Pedro were throwing off a 20" mound, in Dodger Stadium, with a strike zone twice the size of todays, against batters who couldn't hit the ball out of the park if you let them use golf balls - what do you think he would do? Did Koufax's teams really not score for him? I don't think that's the case. Take Dodger Stadium into account, and you will find out (IIRC) that those Dodgers teams hit pretty well, actually. Your argument, Bob, boils down to Koufax was better because those old time players played the exact same game players do today. That pitching in Dodger Stadium off a 20" mound and pitching in Fenway Park off a 10" mound are identical. That pitching to little guys who don't lift weights and think a double is a career highlight is the same as pitching to Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds. Teams hit 200 HRs per season routinely nowadays. How many teams Koufax pitched to could do that? Frankly, if this argument were about anyone except Koufax, _you_ wouldn't take you seriously. Particularly since by _your_ standards, Gibson was better than Koufax, so where's your argument? In fact, though, it _isn't_ the same game. It's not even close. Pedro in his best season was farther ahead of his peers than Koufax was in his best season. So (I would argue) were several other pitchers, but let's leave that one be. For career value - well, it's close now, but I'd probably take Pedro at the moment. I'd take Clemens in a heartbeat over either, though. ===== Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Freedom is not free" http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
