--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > These numbers demonstate absolute dominance. The > counter arguement that he did this in a week hitting > era does not prove that he would not have done it in > any era. After all ERA is a statistic that has a > lower theoretical limit (it cannot be less than 0) > and a low practical limit (given the fact that this > is a game played by at least 18 humans with a ball > that can do peculiar things it seems reasonable to > argue that an ERA of 1.00 is essentially perfect > (remember WS ERA .97). So With truely outstanding > pitchers (ERA around 2.0) ERA cannot be a good > metric. So in comparing pitchers of different eras > one has to rely on other tools. How about the > opinion of other players (pitchers and hitters)? > Koufax is almost unanimously rated as the best by > players and baseball folks who saw him pitch. People > like Bob Feller and Bob Gibson who do not give > complements to other pitchers often both had stated > he was the best. Hank Aaron another weak hitter from > the era sadi the same.
Bob, the problem is that _we have other tools_. Win Shares. ERA+. And so on. And they all tell us the same thing. Yes, Koufax pitched half his games outside Doger Stadium. And when he did, he wasn't as good as he was _inside_ Dodger Stadium. Using evidence the way you do, I can prove that Mike Mussina is the best pitcher of all time. You have to have some sort of yardstick. Compared to his era, Pedro's statistics are considerably more dominant. Clemens put together that sort of dominance for 20 years - Koufax had _five_ great seasons. Clemens has more _Cy Youngs_ than Koufax had great seasons. He was never great until he moved to Dodger Stadium. He was great in the easiest era ever for a pitcher to be great. The unreliability of memory is one of the strongest findings from all of psychology - as you surely know far better than I. So I don't really _care_ what Bob Feller thinks about who the best pitcher ever was - if we listened to Feller about pitching we'd have every young pitcher throw 200 pitches a game and blow out their arms. How many times did Koufax face a hitter capable of 70 HRs? 60? 50? Not that many. How many times did he face Mantle in his entire career, actually? Even once? How many times did he face a lineup where every hitter - 1 through 9 - was capable of hitting at least 20 in a season? How many times did he throw off a 10" mound? How many times did he pitch with the modern strike zone, not the one from 1968? Against batters with thin-handled bats with cupped ends? Koufax was a phenomenal pitcher. If he had pitched somewhere other than Dodger Stadium, we'd still remember him as one of the best pitchers ever. But no one would even argue that he was the best pitcher ever. If it's no-hitters you want, Ryan is better. Strikeouts? Who was the first pitcher to strike out 20 batters in a game? The first to do it _twice_? Now, that's not necessarily the most amazing thing in the world, because batters are easier to strike out now than they used to be. But not as easy as they were in Koufax's day, probably. How tough do you think Randy Johnson would be off a 20" mound? Actually, that's your exact comparison right there. Sandy Koufax and Randy Johnson are basically the same pitcher - except Randy has been just as good as Koufax, for longer. I'll actually go a bit farther on one more point. If Koufax weren't Jewish, we wouldn't be having this argument either. There's a sort of halo that surrounds him because he was Jewish and a great athlete. He was. He was a phenomenal pitcher of extraordinary skill with great stuff. But that doesn't make him the best pitcher of all time (take your pick from Tom Seaver, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and Roger Clemens). It doesn't make him the single most dominant pitcher of all time. Gibson had a better single season ERA than Koufax ever managed - why not argue for him? He was very, very great. But every piece of evidence for which I am aware argues that there have been other pitchers who were better. ===== Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Freedom is not free" http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
