Can you answer some of these questions since you seem to know alot? If Vietnamese is behind Khmer Rouge, why khmer rouge invaded vietnam and killed vietnamese villagers? If Vietnamees is behind khmer rouge, why did they have to invade cambodia to tople khmer rouge, the regime that they orchestrated as you suggested?\ Now, if CPP is behind Vietnamese, why are thousands and thousands of cambodians working for CPP?
You tend to think thatat you are not one of those who joined the Vietnamese. Can you tell us why are those Cambodians today so stupid to working for Vietnam? I am begging you to explain these matters so we all can understand as you. Thank you On Aug 20, 11:56 am, "Bopha Angkor" <[email protected]> wrote: > Lok Koeun Sam Ung after the definition of R.J Rummel, polpot and few > comrades were sacrificed or politicide by yuons to be replace by another yuon > political tools more easy for yuons to handle for failing to obey to yuons > orders and yuon wills as the cpp clan did. Or it's just a step of yuon > political strategies. Polpot and few of his comrades has no other choice than > to face their old masters while these last ones didn't need them anymore or > just want to eliminate them from the yuon political spinal column. Pham van > dong said, yuons know what to do with their creatures or political > tools/pets, while to use bottom and while to satisfy with a piece meat. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Koeun Sam Ung > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 8:33 AM > Subject: Vietnamese Democide > > STATISTICS OF DEMOCIDE > > Chapter 6 > > Statistics Of > Vietnamese Democide > Estimates, Calculations, And Sources* > > By R.J. Rummel > > Genocide: among other things, the killing of people by a government because > of their indelible group membership (race, ethnicity, religion, language). > > Politicide: the murder of any person or people by a government because of > their politics or for political purposes. > > Mass Murder: the indiscriminate killing of any person or people by a > government. > > Democide: The murder of any person or people by a government, including > genocide, politicide, and mass murder. > > Perhaps of all countries, democide in Vietnam and by Vietnamese is most > difficult to unravel and assess. It is mixed in with six wars spanning 43 > years (the Indochina War, Vietnam War, Cambodian War, subsequent guerrilla > war in Cambodia, guerrilla war in Laos, and Sino-Vietnamese War), one of them > involving the United States; a near twenty-one year formal division of the > country into two sovereign North and South parts; the full communization of > the North; occupation of neighboring countries by both North and South; > defeat, absorption, and communization of the South; and the massive flight by > sea of Vietnamese. As best as I can determine, through all this close to > 3,800,000 Vietnamese lost their lives from political violence, or near one > out of every ten men, women, and children.1 Of these, about 1,250,000, or > near a third of those killed, were murdered. > > Tables 6.1A and 6.1B give the sources, estimates and calculations of > Vietnamese killed. As noted, Vietnam was involved in several wars and was for > twenty-one years formally divided into two nation-states, North and South > Vietnam. Moreover, both parts of Vietnam committed democide against their own > people as well as in other countries, and democide was committed by > foreigners against them. Not only is Vietnam's history complex, therefore, > but the estimates of those killed in war and democide differ considerably by > perpetrator, victims, time, and place. For these reasons I have made a > special effort to divide the estimates into the smallest consistent groups > and where possible to use the resulting consolidated figures to cross check > totals and subtotals. > > This will be seen, for example, in calculating the total war-dead (lines 1 > to 261 in Table 6.1A). The first war was that against the French, defined > here as beginning when the Viet Minh established the Democratic Republic of > Vietnam in September 1945 and lasting until July 1954. I divide estimates of > war-dead and their calculations or consolidations into those for the Viet > Minh (lines 3 to 4), France (lines 7 to 18), civilians (lines 22 to 25), > military (lines 28 to 30), and total war-dead (lines 33 to 44). The total > war-dead is the figure of interest here, but before accepting its > consolidation (line 44) it can be checked against two other ways of getting > the total. One is by adding together the separately determined figures for > Viet Minh, French, and civilian war-dead (line 45); the other by adding > civilian and military war-dead (line 46). This gives us three total war dead > ranges for comparison (lines 44 to 46). The three mid-values tend to be > relatively close, while the lows and highs are quite divergent. Since we > generally want the higher high and lower low, I selected these for the final > total and averaged the three mid-values (line 47). Subtracting then the > non-Vietnamese war-dead (line 49) gives the cost of the Indochina War as > 188,000 to 1,153,000, or 512,000 Vietnamese lives. > > War-dead estimates for the Vietnam War abound (lines 53 to 214). I divide > these first into civilian and total war-dead for North Vietnam and > consolidate them (lines 54 to 67). Then I pull out estimates for Viet Cong > war-dead (which may or may not also include North Vietnamese regulars--lines > 69 to 83) and I give separately those estimates explicitly for both North > Vietnamese and Viet Cong war-dead (lines 88 to 102). For both sets the > estimates vary in the years and duration they cover. Accordingly, ignoring > estimates for one year or those whose periods or coverage are unclear, I > extrapolated the estimates for the years of the war. That is, > > extrapolated estimate = (years of war)(estimate/years it covers). > > Since many estimates here and later will be so extrapolated, the date taken > for the beginning of the war is statistically important. I selected January > 1960 based on those considerations given in Death By Government.2 That is, as > evidenced by their activity, such as the building of the Ho Chi Minh trial, > secret speeches by North Vietnamese leaders, orders to their operatives, and > the creation of political front organizations in the south, by this date > Hanoi clearly had prepared the way for and had begun a sustained guerrilla > and military effort to take over the country. This means that the war lasted > for 15.33 years. > > However, the war was not equally violent and deadly for each of these > years. It was far less intense in the early years than after the full > American involvement in 1965. To take into account this possible shift in > violence, therefore, I calculated three extrapolations for each estimate, > where I made "years of war" successively equal to 12, 13, and 14. Even then > this may seem to under or overly weight the estimates, especially for the > early 1960s before the United States was fully involved; or those for the > period of greatest violence during 1966 to 1969. In any case, I will > subsequently check on these results by comparing them against total war-dead > estimates. > > Returning now to Table 6.1A and the consolidation of the North Vietnamese > and Viet Cong war-dead estimates and extrapolations (line 102), this may be > checked against those consolidations of the separate war-dead estimates and > extrapolations (line 67 and 83) by summing them (line 104). As can be seen, > the two different ways of determining North Vietnamese and Viet Cong war-dead > yield roughly equal mid and high totals. For a preliminary war-dead range, I > take the lowest low and highest high and average the two mid-values (line > 105). This is preliminary since in the light of subsequent figures for > war-deaths among South Vietnamese and other forces, it may have to be > adjusted. > > I follow similar procedures to determine a preliminary South Vietnamese > war-dead range (lines 108 to 140). Note that the two ways of estimating this > range (lines 138 and 139) yield fairly close mid and high totals, but still > must be treated with caution. Unlike with the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong > war-dead estimates generally, civilian and total war-dead statistics for > South Vietnam are not always clear as to whether they also cover democide. I > have tried to separate out the ambiguous estimates, but sometimes this > demands reading the mind of the source (e.g., lines 109, 132, 134). Even if > labeled "war-dead" the estimate may cover all killed during the war, which > would include democide (e.g., possibly line 133). In any case, keeping this > in mind, I calculate a preliminary South Vietnamese war-dead total as I did > for North Vietnam and the Viet Cong (line 140). > > Largely uncontroversial war-dead totals then are calculated for South > Vietnam's allies (lines 142 to 179--the three estimates for South Vietnam and > allies on lines 182 to 184 are for background only). > > Finally I can calculate an overall war-dead total. I list related estimates > and their consolidations for civilians (lines 188 to 193), military (lines > 196 to 199), and combined (lines 202 to 206), and then check the latter by > two sums. One is that of the separate civilian and military consolidations > (line 207); the other is of the preliminary North Vietnam/Viet Cong, South > Vietnam, United States, and other third party sub-totals (line 208). The > three mid-values (lines 206 to 208) are relatively close, while one low is > about a third lower than the others. Consistent with my approach, I take this > low and the highest high to establish the final range. Its mid-value is the > average of the three alternative mid-values (line 209). Subtracting foreign > dead from this (line 210) gives a likely Vietnam War, war-dead total of > 1,719,000 people (line 211). Since this is not the figure to which the > preliminary North Vietnamese/Viet Cong and South Vietnamese war-dead figures > summed, they must be adjusted such that they add up to this total. > Proportionally adjusting them gives the final ranges and mid-values shown > (lines 212 and 214). > > Both North Vietnam and South Vietnam were involved in other wars and > suffered rebellions of one-sort or another. In South Vietnam there was the > suppression of various sects and their independent armies (line 219), > rebellions of minorities (lines 222 to 223), the pre-Vietnam War communist > inspired guerrilla war directed by North Vietnam from 1954 through 1959 > (lines 227 and 228), and the incursion into Cambodia (line 239). For North > Vietnam there was a severe local rebellion in 1957 (line 232); and the > rebellion of S. Vietnamese against North Vietnam cadre and by National > Liberation Front guerrillas after the Vietnam War (lines 233 to 235). And > there was North Vietnam's > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cambodia Discussion (CAMDISC) - www.cambodia.org" group. This is an unmoderated forum. Please refrain from using foul language. Thank you for your understanding. Peace among us and in Cambodia. 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