I love it when someone like you were ................. like this. You seem to know alot of stuffs. Why can't you answer these simple questions? Or are you a superior person who don't want to get your hands dirty? Or are you afraid that you are wrong?
On Aug 20, 2:19 pm, kangaroo <[email protected]> wrote: > Can you answer some of these questions since you seem to know alot? > If Vietnamese is behind Khmer Rouge, why khmer rouge invaded vietnam > and killed vietnamese villagers? > If Vietnamees is behind khmer rouge, why did they have to invade > cambodia to tople khmer rouge, the regime that they orchestrated as > you suggested?\ > Now, if CPP is behind Vietnamese, why are thousands and thousands of > cambodians working for CPP? > > You tend to think thatat you are not one of those who joined the > Vietnamese. Can you tell us why are those Cambodians today so stupid > to working for Vietnam? > > I am begging you to explain these matters so we all can understand as > you. > Thank you > > On Aug 20, 11:56 am, "Bopha Angkor" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Lok Koeun Sam Ung after the definition of R.J Rummel, polpot and few > > comrades were sacrificed or politicide by yuons to be replace by another > > yuon political tools more easy for yuons to handle for failing to obey to > > yuons orders and yuon wills as the cpp clan did. Or it's just a step of > > yuon political strategies. Polpot and few of his comrades has no other > > choice than to face their old masters while these last ones didn't need > > them anymore or just want to eliminate them from the yuon political spinal > > column. Pham van dong said, yuons know what to do with their creatures or > > political tools/pets, while to use bottom and while to satisfy with a piece > > meat. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Koeun Sam Ung > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 8:33 AM > > Subject: Vietnamese Democide > > > STATISTICS OF DEMOCIDE > > > Chapter 6 > > > Statistics Of > > Vietnamese Democide > > Estimates, Calculations, And Sources* > > > By R.J. Rummel > > > Genocide: among other things, the killing of people by a government > > because of their indelible group membership (race, ethnicity, religion, > > language). > > > Politicide: the murder of any person or people by a government because of > > their politics or for political purposes. > > > Mass Murder: the indiscriminate killing of any person or people by a > > government. > > > Democide: The murder of any person or people by a government, including > > genocide, politicide, and mass murder. > > > Perhaps of all countries, democide in Vietnam and by Vietnamese is most > > difficult to unravel and assess. It is mixed in with six wars spanning 43 > > years (the Indochina War, Vietnam War, Cambodian War, subsequent guerrilla > > war in Cambodia, guerrilla war in Laos, and Sino-Vietnamese War), one of > > them involving the United States; a near twenty-one year formal division of > > the country into two sovereign North and South parts; the full > > communization of the North; occupation of neighboring countries by both > > North and South; defeat, absorption, and communization of the South; and > > the massive flight by sea of Vietnamese. As best as I can determine, > > through all this close to 3,800,000 Vietnamese lost their lives from > > political violence, or near one out of every ten men, women, and children.1 > > Of these, about 1,250,000, or near a third of those killed, were murdered. > > > Tables 6.1A and 6.1B give the sources, estimates and calculations of > > Vietnamese killed. As noted, Vietnam was involved in several wars and was > > for twenty-one years formally divided into two nation-states, North and > > South Vietnam. Moreover, both parts of Vietnam committed democide against > > their own people as well as in other countries, and democide was committed > > by foreigners against them. Not only is Vietnam's history complex, > > therefore, but the estimates of those killed in war and democide differ > > considerably by perpetrator, victims, time, and place. For these reasons I > > have made a special effort to divide the estimates into the smallest > > consistent groups and where possible to use the resulting consolidated > > figures to cross check totals and subtotals. > > > This will be seen, for example, in calculating the total war-dead (lines > > 1 to 261 in Table 6.1A). The first war was that against the French, defined > > here as beginning when the Viet Minh established the Democratic Republic of > > Vietnam in September 1945 and lasting until July 1954. I divide estimates > > of war-dead and their calculations or consolidations into those for the > > Viet Minh (lines 3 to 4), France (lines 7 to 18), civilians (lines 22 to > > 25), military (lines 28 to 30), and total war-dead (lines 33 to 44). The > > total war-dead is the figure of interest here, but before accepting its > > consolidation (line 44) it can be checked against two other ways of getting > > the total. One is by adding together the separately determined figures for > > Viet Minh, French, and civilian war-dead (line 45); the other by adding > > civilian and military war-dead (line 46). This gives us three total war > > dead ranges for comparison (lines 44 to 46). The three mid-values tend to > > be relatively close, while the lows and highs are quite divergent. Since we > > generally want the higher high and lower low, I selected these for the > > final total and averaged the three mid-values (line 47). Subtracting then > > the non-Vietnamese war-dead (line 49) gives the cost of the Indochina War > > as 188,000 to 1,153,000, or 512,000 Vietnamese lives. > > > War-dead estimates for the Vietnam War abound (lines 53 to 214). I divide > > these first into civilian and total war-dead for North Vietnam and > > consolidate them (lines 54 to 67). Then I pull out estimates for Viet Cong > > war-dead (which may or may not also include North Vietnamese > > regulars--lines 69 to 83) and I give separately those estimates explicitly > > for both North Vietnamese and Viet Cong war-dead (lines 88 to 102). For > > both sets the estimates vary in the years and duration they cover. > > Accordingly, ignoring estimates for one year or those whose periods or > > coverage are unclear, I extrapolated the estimates for the years of the > > war. That is, > > > extrapolated estimate = (years of war)(estimate/years it covers). > > > Since many estimates here and later will be so extrapolated, the date > > taken for the beginning of the war is statistically important. I selected > > January 1960 based on those considerations given in Death By Government.2 > > That is, as evidenced by their activity, such as the building of the Ho Chi > > Minh trial, secret speeches by North Vietnamese leaders, orders to their > > operatives, and the creation of political front organizations in the south, > > by this date Hanoi clearly had prepared the way for and had begun a > > sustained guerrilla and military effort to take over the country. This > > means that the war lasted for 15.33 years. > > > However, the war was not equally violent and deadly for each of these > > years. It was far less intense in the early years than after the full > > American involvement in 1965. To take into account this possible shift in > > violence, therefore, I calculated three extrapolations for each estimate, > > where I made "years of war" successively equal to 12, 13, and 14. Even then > > this may seem to under or overly weight the estimates, especially for the > > early 1960s before the United States was fully involved; or those for the > > period of greatest violence during 1966 to 1969. In any case, I will > > subsequently check on these results by comparing them against total > > war-dead estimates. > > > Returning now to Table 6.1A and the consolidation of the North Vietnamese > > and Viet Cong war-dead estimates and extrapolations (line 102), this may be > > checked against those consolidations of the separate war-dead estimates and > > extrapolations (line 67 and 83) by summing them (line 104). As can be seen, > > the two different ways of determining North Vietnamese and Viet Cong > > war-dead yield roughly equal mid and high totals. For a preliminary > > war-dead range, I take the lowest low and highest high and average the two > > mid-values (line 105). This is preliminary since in the light of subsequent > > figures for war-deaths among South Vietnamese and other forces, it may have > > to be adjusted. > > > I follow similar procedures to determine a preliminary South Vietnamese > > war-dead range (lines 108 to 140). Note that the two ways of estimating > > this range (lines 138 and 139) yield fairly close mid and high totals, but > > still must be treated with caution. Unlike with the North Vietnamese and > > Viet Cong war-dead estimates generally, civilian and total war-dead > > statistics for South Vietnam are not always clear as to whether they also > > cover democide. I have tried to separate out the ambiguous estimates, but > > sometimes this demands reading the mind of the source (e.g., lines 109, > > 132, 134). Even if labeled "war-dead" the estimate may cover all killed > > during the war, which would include democide (e.g., possibly line 133). In > > any case, keeping this in mind, I calculate a preliminary South Vietnamese > > war-dead total as I did for North Vietnam and the Viet Cong (line 140). > > > Largely uncontroversial war-dead totals then are calculated for South > > Vietnam's allies (lines 142 to 179--the three estimates for South Vietnam > > and allies on lines 182 to 184 are for background only). > > > Finally I can calculate an overall war-dead total. I list related > > estimates and their consolidations for civilians (lines 188 to 193), > > military (lines 196 to 199), and combined (lines 202 to 206), and then > > check the latter by two sums. One is that of the separate civilian and > > military consolidations (line 207); the other is of the preliminary North > > Vietnam/Viet Cong, South Vietnam, United States, and other third party > > sub-totals (line 208). The three mid-values (lines 206 to 208) are > > relatively close, while one low is about a third lower than the others. > > Consistent with my approach, I take this low and the highest high to > > establish the final range. Its mid-value is the average of the three > > alternative mid-values (line 209). Subtracting foreign dead from this (line > > 210) gives a likely Vietnam War, war-dead total of 1,719,000 people (line > > 211). Since this is not the figure to which the preliminary North > > Vietnamese/Viet Cong and > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cambodia Discussion (CAMDISC) - www.cambodia.org" group. This is an unmoderated forum. Please refrain from using foul language. Thank you for your understanding. Peace among us and in Cambodia. 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