WOW... Now THAT was an answer....
-Cameron
--------------------
Cameron Childress
ElliptIQ Inc.
p.770.460.7277.232
f.770.460.0963
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marc Funaro [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 10:17 AM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: RE: Getting Ridiculous
>
>
> Greetings,
>
> (This advice based on "my own meandering experience".)
>
> Guy, we all need to make a living. We all have personal needs as
> well. The
> best of us try to focus on what's important in life, and the HOPE
> of course
> is that money is not ALL that's important. That said, I can relate your
> story a bit to something I went through just a year ago.
>
> I was working for a company, which had both for-profit and non-profit
> aspects. The work this company/organization does is simply WONDERFUL.
> Absolutely. I would have returned to that work again in an
> instant. And in
> general, the people I worked with on a daily basis were great.
> That said...
>
> There were all sorts of promises made upon my employment... certainly
> related to 'bonuses' and 'profit sharing'. The company offered
> me training,
> which I of course was grateful for, and still am today. But then one day,
> the money ran out. A promotional idea was launched, that went
> WAY WAY over
> budget, and I received a PHONE CALL (yes that's right, a phone call) on a
> Sunday (you read it right, on a SUNDAY), basically saying "don't
> come in to
> work tomorrow". (Icing on the cake: I was RIGHT in the middle
> of buying a
> house, too!) They spent all their money, and then had the nerve
> to blame ME
> for "office moral" slipping.
>
> I had established my own company some time before, and had all
> the necessary
> paperwork completed, but I certainly didn't have a large client
> base. This
> organization's owner wanted to "shift" me from being an employee, back to
> being an outsourced company providing web programming and network/PC
> support. Of course, there was still this issue of money -- one simply
> cannot survive on good will alone. So in the back of my mind, I
> was already
> "on alert" about letting them run up a bill with me. What if they STILL
> have problems managing their money after I am gone? How can I protect
> myself from being let down again?
>
> So I went off payroll, and did some work for them as a client of
> my company.
> At one point, I was fed a "project" that required immediate
> attention, and I
> delivered -- on time and under budget. Then, after it became clear that
> they were STILL having money problems and couldn't pay the invoice on time
> (after I had dropped everything for their project), I had to make a tough
> decision -- but one I do not regret. I sent an email, which basically
> indicated that I would no longer work on anything but a "debit
> card" type of
> scenario, where I was always paid in advance. They have since turned to
> another company for their work.
>
> There comes a time, every so often, when the employee must fire the
> employer -- when the owner of a company must fire his client. I had to do
> just that -- as much as I loved the work (the work that *I* did as well as
> the goals and philosophies of the company), I simply could not afford to
> keep this client. The fact that *I* WASN'T given a two-week
> notice, or even
> the courtesy of a face-to-face meeting regarding my employment,
> hints at the
> fact that in this day and age, "anything goes". When people work for one
> another, respect is everything. It was clear after a certain
> period of time
> that I was not going to be respected for my constantly improving
> skills, my
> need for a stable paycheck, or even the respect one shows for his
> employees
> by meeting face-to-face on such important matters. And after being fired
> over the phone, I had lost a LOT of respect for my employer as
> well. There
> was simply nothing left to go on respect-wise, no matter what the "future
> opportunities" might have been, or how much I enjoyed what I was doing.
>
> Prior to all this going down, I had planned on putting in a
> two-week notice
> to this company about two months later than when I was "let go". I can
> stand firm, and at least feel confident that I had some moral fiber
> regarding the whole thing. Because my employer did not have the guts to
> face me in person, or give the courtesy of a two week notice, I
> lost a great
> deal of respect for him. This put a dark cloud over the idea of
> working for
> him as a third-party company, and gave me new perspective on how he really
> operates. When the second incident came, regarding payment of my bill,
> there was no choice but to cut my losses and distance myself from
> the whole
> company -- opportunities, goodwill and honorable work notwithstanding.
>
> To tie it all together for your situation: I really believe
> you'll want to
> FIRE THIS EMPLOYER as soon as you can. It's scary, but life is
> like that --
> take this risk!
>
> You'll want to provide a two-week notice when you decide to
> leave, no matter
> what. It will just make you "feel good", and is the professional thing to
> do. Without seeing the "contract" they are proposing, I don't
> see how they
> could "take anything away" from you if you signed a one-year deal
> with them,
> and then gave a two-week notice 6 months into the contract. You aren't
> getting any benefits, you aren't getting any "free" stuff or a "signing
> bonus" like a new PC, or training courses, or anything like that... so
> what's the point of even having a timeframe specified in the
> contract? Why
> agree to stay with them for a year, if the salary is HALF of what
> you should
> be making? Which of you proposed a "contract" instead of just using a
> standard job-description with a salary range, and perhaps an annual salary
> review?
>
> If you sign a year contract, ethically you should stay the year. Legally,
> (and I am no lawyer, but...) I doubt they would pursue legal
> action against
> you if you chose to leave, unless there's a clause that indicates the
> repercussions of breaching such a "contract". A company cannot simply say
> that they "own" you for a year, and expect to claim any sort of "damages",
> especially if you give a two week notice. But you are treading on thinner
> ice if you decide to take this route. It would be much better if you can
> work a two-week severance clause into this "contract"... but
> you're opening
> up a little bit more to them than you would probably like, the moment you
> request it. In general, EVERY contract should have an "out" for
> all parties
> involved, and should be clear about the repercussions for ALL
> parties should
> anyone breach the contract. I wouldn't sign anything that doesn't have
> those characteristics ANYWAY.
>
> In all, and others will indicate this, I would get your resume together,
> forget the "contract" (yeah, it doubles your salary, but you're still way
> under what you should be making!!), and as soon as you are confident of a
> particular offer, put in your two week notice. When your two
> weeks are up,
> pack up your stuff, walk out the door and DON'T LOOK BACK. And no matter
> what, do NOT accept a counter-offer after you have made your decision to
> leave. Why? Well, at least some of the following points may apply:
>
> -- What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign
> before they give you what you are worth?
>
> -- Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? Is it your next
> raise early? All companies have (or should have, if they are worth working
> for!!) strict wage and salary guidelines which must be followed.
>
> -- Your company will (most likely) immediately start looking for a new
> person at a cheaper price.
>
> -- You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy.
> From this day
> on, your loyalty will always be in question.
>
> -- When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who was
> loyal, and who wasn't.
>
> -- When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutback with you.
>
> -- The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will
> repeat themselves in the future; even if you accept a counteroffer.
>
> -- Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of
> voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go within one year is
> extremely high.
>
> -- Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and
> a blow to
> your personal pride; knowing that you were bought.
>
> -- Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your
> coworkers will never be the same. You will lose the personal
> satisfaction of
> peer group acceptance.
>
> As far as "what it takes" to get a job with a CF/Web development firm, the
> answers are as varied as the companies out there. Common characteristics
> include an ability and willingness to learn new things quickly; a
> willingness to "shift gears" at a moment's notice (i.e., you're in the
> middle of one project, and you are suddenly put on another more
> urgent one),
> a willingness to work as a "team member" (that is so subjective I hate to
> even say it -- what the hell is a "team player" anyway, someone
> who doesn't
> "rock the boat"?! I like to try and be a little more specific,
> using a good
> JOB DESCRIPTION); and, when it comes to development, a keen eye for detail
> and an almost anal-retentive approach to coding (at least that's what *I*
> look for!!).
>
> Be ready to provide samples of your best work: This may mean
> using some of
> the code you have written for a company that is NOT on the public
> internet,
> so make sure you back up your work, and modify it so that the
> code you wrote
> cannot be traced to the company it was originally written for (UNLESS you
> have a specific work-for-hire clause which indicates that some
> VERY specific
> code is owned by the company -- DON'T get into a legal battle
> over something
> like THAT!!).
>
> I hope this helps. Good luck, and LET US KNOW HOW IT GOES!
>
> .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> Marc Funaro, President
> Advantex Technical Consulting Services
> 5547 State Highway 12
> Norwich, NY 13815
> Phone: 607-336-6895
> Fax: 801-383-4864
> Internet: http://www.advantex.net
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> " -----Original Message-----
> " From: Guy J. McDowell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> " Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 8:50 AM
> " To: CF-Community
> " Subject: Getting Ridiculous
> "
> "
> " Hello all,
> "
> " Looking for a little fatherly (or motherly) advice.
> "
> " Situation:
> " 8 months out of college working at a non-profit,
> " developing CF for a
> " year.
> " Webmaster managing and developing 8 (eight) domains, sole
> " developer.
> " Currently being compensated at about $12,000 CDN / year no
> " benefits.
> " Educated employer about market value and what their
> " options were if I
> " died tomorrow.
> " (That being a starting salary of about $45k/year for
> " someone straight
> " out of college or they could hire the only other guy in the 100Km
> " radius area that is at my developing level (or above) in CF for
> " $100/hr)
> " I also looked at public financial statement and deduced that the
> " average salary for full-time employment in this
> " organization is about
> " $40K/yr (mostly biologists and administrators).
> "
> " I made a reasonable request of $35K/yr plus standard benefits.
> " They're coming back with a one year contract offer of
> " about $25K/yr no
> " benefits, no negotiation.
> "
> " The group does good work and I'll always be a member, but
> " this job is
> " beginning to cost me money.
> "
> " I'm thinking I should request a two-weeks clause so that I
> " can leave
> " with 2 weeks notice and inform them that I will be looking for
> " employment elsewhere. I'd like to know if this would be
> " perceived as
> " ethical by employers out there. Or any other courses of action that
> " would be suitable and practical.
> "
> " Also, what does it take to get a job with a firm that focuses on
> " CF/Web Development? I really want to grow and learn more.
> "
> " Please accept my apologies if this sounds like whining, I'm just
> " running out of ways to deal with this.
> "
> " Yours In Conservation,
> "
> " Guy J. McDowell,
> " Webmaster
> " The Ontario Federation of Anglers & Hunters
> " E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> " Phone: (705) 748-6324 ext. 262
> "
> " P.S.
> " Check out the ALL NEW www.InvadingSpecies.com site as well
> " as the rest
> " of our lineup...
> " www.OFAH.org - The flagship site for the O.F.A.H.
> " www.AuctionForWildlife.com - Your chance to make your bid for
> " conservation.
> " www.EcoEd.org - an online adventure for kids in grades 1 through 8.
> " www.HuntingDog.org - Celebrating our Hunting Dog Heritage.
> " www.AHTV.com - Your online companion to the Angler and Hunter
> " Television show.
> " www.OHEP.net - Where to find out and learn about the
> " Ontario Hunter
> " Education Program.
> "
> "
> "
> "
> " -----Original Message-----
> " From: CF-Community [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> " Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:14 PM
> " To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> " Subject: CF-Community-List V1 #15
> "
> "
> " CF-Community-List Fri, 8 Dec 2000
> " Volume 1 :
> " Number 15
> "
> " In this issue:
> "
> " RE: Server for cf?
> " RE: Server for cf?
> " RE: Server for cf?
> "
> "
> " -----------------------------------------------------------
> " -----------
> "
> " Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:32:18 -0500
> " From: "Guy J. McDowell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> " To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> " Subject: RE: Server for cf?
> " Message-ID: <000501c0611b$49fe7cc0$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> "
> " Just wanted to send a quick thanks to all involved in this thread.
> " I've been wondering the same things as Al Musella as I plan on
> " starting up a developing/hosting business in the new year.
> "
> " I found out more from that thread than 3 days of research.
> " Gotta love
> " the CF community!
> "
> " Yours In Conservation,
> "
> " Guy J. McDowell,
> " Webmaster
> " The Ontario Federation of Anglers & Hunters
> " E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> " Phone: (705) 748-6324 ext. 262
> "
> " P.S.
> " The ALL NEW www.InvadingSpecies.com site is now available.
> " Ontario's
> " best site on invading species info and control.
> " www.OFAH.org - The flagship site for the O.F.A.H.
> " www.AuctionForWildlife.com - Your chance to make your bid for
> " conservation.
> " www.EcoEd.org - an online adventure for kids in grades 1 through 8.
> " www.HuntingDog.org - Celebrating our Hunting Dog Heritage.
> " www.AHTV.com - Your online companion to the Angler and Hunter
> " Television show.
> " www.OHEP.net - Where to find out and learn about the
> " Ontario Hunter
> " Education Program.
>
>
>
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