H.- This is not simple. Hope I can clarify it a little.
No, I am *not* defining it as strictly religious. Nor am I defining it as strictly race. It is both, and more. Israel is referred to as a "people". Those people have certain characteristics - not just one. A tradition of the Jewish people traces maternal lineage. So, a secular Jew can be someone born of a Jewish mother who does not choose to practice the Jewish faith. Jews recognize conversion. So you can become Jewish - like immigrants who become naturalized citizens. Judaism is also based on the Torah, the five books of Moses, and centuries of commentary and interpretation (e.g. Talmud). There are core beliefs and prayers in the Jewish faith. Interestingly, on this list we have at least one Orthodox Jew, Reform Jew, and secular Jew who *all* agree on this point. --------- By the way, I apologize for this grammatical nit-picking, but it's a pet peeve of mine: you said "Then your defining Jew..." Your is a possessive. If you were talking about "my" defining this would be correct. But if you meant to say "Then you are defining Jew...", that's "you're" with the apostrophe (contraction symbol) taking the place of the missing letter. There will be a test later. <grin> -Ben > -----Original Message----- > From: Howard Owens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 9:08 PM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > Then your defining Jew as a strictly religious term and there > is no such > thing as the Jewish race. Following that logic, there are > also no secular > Jews. > > H. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Braver, Ben [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 9:20 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > Not to be tacky, but IMHO "messianic Jew" is an oxymoron, > either as one word > or two > (two words = oxy moron, as in air head) > > sorry, but the Jewish faith does not believe the Messiah has come. > anyone who does believe that by definition cannot be a Jew. > > -Ben > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 9:21 AM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > > > Would they agree with that, or is that your opinion. I > honestly don't > > know. The only reason I know of it is my wife has a friend who is a > > messianic Jew. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Braver, Ben [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 11:14 AM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > Kevin- > > but they are not Jews. > > -Ben > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 9:12 AM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > > > > > > Yes, technically they are Christians, however they still > incorporate > > > Jewish traditions. :) > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 11:09 AM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > > > You mean Christians? > > > > > > At 11:54 AM 4/12/02, you wrote: > > > >Don't forget messianic Jews. > > > > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > >From: Braver, Ben [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 10:45 AM > > > >To: CF-Community > > > >Subject: RE:Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > > > > >Michael, > > > > > > > >I do not want to start a fight. But I am quite upset. > > > > > > > >I take strong exception to your use of the phrase "a > > > rational rejected > > > >by > > > >religious Jews". > > > > > > > >I *am* a religious Jew. > > > >But I am *not* an Orthodox Jew, I am a Reform Jew. > > > > > > > >I recognize there being (at least) three movements in the Jewish > > > >religion - > > > >Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform. I consider all three of > > > them valid > > > >and > > > >their members religious. There are also secular Jews. I am not a > > > secular > > > >Jew. > > > > > > > >In my mind, you are a religious Orthodox Jew. I am a > > religious Reform > > > >Jew. > > > > > > > >Apparently that mode of thinking only works in one direction. > > > >This just backs up my previous posts about religious > > > discrimination in > > > >Israel by Orthodox against other movements. > > > > > > > ><and, oh by the way, the word is "rationale"> > > > > > > > >-Ben > > > >:-( > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:40 AM > > > >> To: CF-Community > > > >> Subject: Re: Circumcision article link > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Actually, a religious person (at least this one) looks at it > > > >> and says that its a commandment and I'm doing it because its > > > >> a commandment. If science says that the commandment has a > > > >> physical effect, then fine and good. The physical effect is > > > >> totally secondary to the spiritual effect. > > > >> To say that the commandment or every commandment was done for > > > >> a physical reason such as health opens the door to denial of > > > >> the root of the commandment. Hey, not eating pork was because > > > >> of trichinosis. If we cook it right then we wouldn't get the > > > >> disease and we can now eat it. Same for all the other > > > >> commandments. This is the rational of the reform movement and > > > >> a rational rejected by religious Jews. > > > >> > > > >> At 03:51 AM 4/12/02, you wrote: > > > >> >It seems that much of the old testament law, such as > > > >> circumcision, what to eat and not to eat, etc., has a good > > > >> basis in what is healthy, especailly given the lack of > > > >> sanitary conditions of the times. > > > >> > > > > >> >A religious person might argue that this is God making up > > > >> the lack of science of the time to protect people. A > > > >> non-believer might argue that this is wise people coming up > > > >> religious law to mirror their own observations about what > > > >> makes a person sick. Either way, it demonstrates a good deal > > > >> of wisdom in the old books. > > > >> > > > > >> >H. > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> >---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- > > > >> >from: "Braver, Ben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >> >date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 19:56:23 -0700 > > > >> > > > > >> >>Found a link to the original article on circumcision & risk > > > >> of cervical > > > >> >>cancer - it's in the New England Journal of Medicine: > > > >> >>http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/346/15/1105 > > > >> >> > > > >> >>Apparently, the foreskin is particularly susceptible to > > > >> infection from HPV - > > > >> >>human papilloma virus - which is linked to cervical cancer. > > > >> >> > > > >> >>-Ben > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
