I guess that's why theres a need for a second coming in Christianity. To set people straight from the first one. For Christianity to say that I'm going to hell for not accepting Jesus is something that I can't accept. Judaism doesn't have that. "Live a righteous life and you will go to heaven". We even have a tradition of 'pushing' potential converts away by saying that they can get to heaven just by being righteous. Why do they want to take on all the commandments of a Jew? Why do they want to be despised of all the nations?
At 12:21 PM 4/15/02, you wrote: >Jesus came here because he wanted to set us all straight before the end of the >World...sort of like a wake up call. Those who don't >straighten themselves out before the end of the World, and are damned, have only >themselves to blame... > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Braver, Ben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 12:04 PM >Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > >> I hope this comment does not offend anyone. >> Apologies if it does. >> (It probably will.) >> >> But the whole "second coming" belief in Christianity sounds to me like it >> didn't work right the first time, so stay tuned for the sequel, it will work >> then. >> >> I'm sorry, to me God is just God. Period. There are prophets, there are holy >> persons worthy of great reverence. But to deify them goes completely against >> my belief in monotheism. >> >> This is especially true re: Catholics. When my son was 6 years old, he >> pointed to a statue of Jesus in somebody's car and said he thought that was >> idolatry and violated the commandment about graven images. And praying to >> the Virgin Mary and Saints strikes me as polytheism. >> >> Sorry, I just cannot fathom this. >> >> -Ben >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >> > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 11:19 PM >> > To: CF-Community >> > Subject: Re: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) >> > >> > >> > The messiah has to do certain things. If he does not then his >> > claim to be the messiah is a false one (according to the >> > Jewish tradition). There is no claim anywhere about multiple >> > life times to do the job. If so, then I am the messiah. I >> > just haven't proven it yet by bringing world peace. >> > The greatest Rabbis of history for the last 2000 years has >> > rejected the claim of Jesus as the Jewish messiah. If you >> > wish to believe that he was, is and will be the messiah then >> > it is fine and good. I'm not going to say your wrong FOR YOU. >> > But it is wrong for me because it has not fallen into the >> > rules that I, as a Jew, know to be required in the Torah. >> > This is why you are not a Jew but are instead a Christian. No >> > judgment on your choice or beliefs but a judgment on mine. >> > >> > > Judith, in all respect, please permit my opinion ... >> > > >> > > What I'm saying is that it's a weak argument to say, "Jesus >> > is not the >> > > Messiah because he hasn't brought world peace." It's like >> > a 12th Century >> > > cleric saying the earth doesn't revolve around the sun >> > because it hasn't >> > > been proven that the earth revolves around the sun. >> > Whether Jesus will >> > > fulfill the particular question of world peace (as >> > prophesized) is still an >> > > open question, so you can't say (logically) that he's not >> > the messiah >> > > because that particular prophecy remains unfulfilled. >> > There is nothing in >> > > the OT (the Torah) that says the prophecies must be >> > fulfilled in a specific >> > > order or specific time line. >> > > >> > > You may have a number of very sound reasons for not >> > believing the Jesus is >> > > the Messiah, and that's fine, but I wanted to point out >> > that this isn't one >> > > of them. >> > > >> > > H. >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: Judith Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >> > > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 10:30 PM >> > > To: CF-Community >> > > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) >> > > >> > > >> > > But Howard, that's what makes me a Jew and you a Christian. <g> >> > > >> > > Judith >> > > >> > > >Jesus Christ has not brought world peace YET! >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >H. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >-----Original Message----- >> > > >From: Judith Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >> > > >Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 9:03 PM >> > > >To: CF-Community >> > > >Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >Russel -- >> > > > >> > > >It's not a condemnation. One of the core beliefs of >> > Judaism is in the >> > > >coming of the Messiah. But by the definition of that >> > belief, the Messiah >> > > >has not yet come. For the Messiah to come, he has to >> > fulfill certain >> > > >requirements (a major example of these requirements: The >> > Messiah has to >> > > >bring world peace.) Jesus didn't fulfill those >> > requirements. Therefore, >> > > >Judaism does not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, the savior of >> > > >humanity, or the son of G-d. >> > > > >> > > >So one cannot claim to be following Judaism while >> > believing in Jesus the >> > > >way a Christian believes in Jesus. >> > > > >> > > >This is what "Messianic Jews" claim. But this claim is >> > based on a major >> > > >misunderstanding of Judaism. >> > > > >> > > >You'll note that Michael and Ben, who are from two very >> > different Jewish >> > > >groups, both agree that Messianic Jews are not following >> > Judaism. This >> > > >should tell you something. >> > > > >> > > >NOTE: I did not say that Messianic Jews could not be born >> > Jewish. But they >> > > >are being sold a bill of goods if they think they are >> > following Judaism. >> > > >Maybe they are doing some Jewish practices -- but >> > believing in Jesus as the >> > > >Messiah or as anything other than a human being is >> > directly against a core >> > > >tenet of Judaism. >> > > > >> > > >Judith >> > > > >> > > > >So let me ask you this. Because I. as a Catholic, >> > believe that Christ is >> > > > >present in the Eucharist when I receive It every Sunday. >> > Baptist do not >> > > > >share that CORE, 2000 year old tenet of my faith. Does >> > that mean to you >> > > I, >> > > > >as a Catholic, and someone else, as a Baptist, cannot >> > both claim to be >> > > > >Christian? >> > > > > >> > > > >Personally, I feel that those calling themselves >> > Messianic Jews are >> > > really >> > > > >archaic Christians. A living, religious fossil, so to >> > speak. I just >> > > > >resented the immediate condemnation of them as not being >> > Jewish in any >> > > way. >> > > > >The Early Chrisitian Church celebrated in synagogs and >> > worshipped in the >> > > > >Temple. They maintained much of thier Jewish identity, >> > even after the >> > > > >Gentiles were admitted to the Church. If it were not >> > for the Roman >> > > > >persecutions, we probably would still be worshipping that way. >> > > > > >> > > > >===== >> > > > >Russel Madere >> > > > >Senior Software Engineer >> > > > >Turbo Squid, Inc. >> > > > >http://www.turbosquid.com >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > ______________________________________________________________________ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
