Yes it does stop him! He isn't!! I could call myself an African-American or Chinese, but as they said on Home Improvement, "I don't think so, Tim!" -Ben
> -----Original Message----- > From: Howard Owens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 10:33 PM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > Perspectives are wonderful, but perspectives don't change the > logic. You may > not like a messanic Jew calling himself a Jew, but that > doesn't stop him > from being a Jew. > > H. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Judith Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 10:32 PM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > But not from the Jewish perspective. (See my response to you > Re: Jesus and > bringing world peace). > > Aren't perspectives wonderful? > > Judith > > >The comparison is faulty because unlike, Wiccans, say, the basis for > believe > >in Christ is based on a Jewish foundation. As a Christian, > we believe that > >all of Israel's history that proceeded the birth of Christ, > foretold and > >prepared the way for Christ. From a Christian perspective, > there is no > >significant break between the Jewish religion and > Christianity. You can't > >have Christianity without Judaism. So, to be a Jew and > become a follower > of > >Christ would not be a stretch at all and would not break > faith with your > >heritage. It would magnify and enhance your heritage. So there is no > >contradiction (or an oxymoron) in the phrase messianic Jew. > > > >H. > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 10:47 AM > >To: CF-Community > >Subject: Re: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > > >So why are there no messianic blacks, messianic irish, > messianic budists, > >etc? Its something that was created to specifically target > the Jews. I > would > >love to have the balls to go around to the J for J posters > and change them > >to Wiccans for Jesus, Muslims for Jesus, Chistians for Jesus > and the like. > > > >At 01:07 PM 4/12/02, you wrote: > > >As a Christian, I keep a keen interest in the Jewish > foundation of my > > >beliefs. My understanding is that Messianic Jews still consider > >themselves > > >Jewish, in the sense that they are a Jew by race and not > by religious > > >beliefs. If I was Irish or African American, I would > still be Irish or > > >African American if I became a Christian, hence the idea > behind being a > > >Messianic Jew. Many Messianic Jews still participate in > their Jewish > > >customs because, quite frankly, it has a whole different > set of meaning > to > > >them now. > > > > > >Being that we believe that Jesus was the fulfillment of > the law of God, > >then > > >we no longer believe that we are required to adhere to the > Old Covenant. > > > > > >Regards, > > >Tim P. > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Michael Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 12:38 PM > > >Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > > > > > >> That gets into a very tricky thing. Many (many, many) > messianic Jewish > > >groups were started up with the primary idea to convert Jews to > > >Christianity. They may dress it up to make it more > 'palatable' but it > > >doesn't change anything. I see Jews for Jesus every summer > and they get > > >totally pissed off when I say to them "onward Christian > soldiers" or > "thats > > >very Christian of you". They're entire budget comes from > those Christians > > >who feel that Jews need to be 'saved'. It's an insult and > one I don't > > >accept. > > >> Now there may be some people who truly believe that they > can believe in > > >Jesus and be Jewish at the same time. The question almost > always comes > down > > >to the laws. Christians don't keep Kosher. They don't > follow the Sabbath > > >(Sunday was resurrection day, not the Sabbath), they do a > LOT of other > > >things against biblical law that Jews keep. If someone > wants to try and > be > > >both, then fine and good, but I don't expect it to be easy > or to last > into > > >the next generation. > > >> > > >> At 12:28 PM 4/12/02, you wrote: > > >> >I understand that, I was just curious if you knew > whether or not they > > >> >considered themselves Jewish. > > >> > > > >> >-----Original Message----- > > >> >From: Braver, Ben [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > >> >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 11:20 AM > > >> >To: CF-Community > > >> >Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > >> > > > >> >Not to be tacky, but IMHO "messianic Jew" is an > oxymoron, either as > one > > >> >word > > >> >or two > > >> >(two words = oxy moron, as in air head) > > >> > > > >> >sorry, but the Jewish faith does not believe the > Messiah has come. > > >> >anyone who does believe that by definition cannot be a Jew. > > >> > > > >> >-Ben > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >> -----Original Message----- > > >> >> From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > >> >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 9:21 AM > > >> >> To: CF-Community > > >> >> Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Would they agree with that, or is that your opinion. > I honestly > don't > > >> >> know. The only reason I know of it is my wife has a > friend who is a > > >> >> messianic Jew. > > >> >> > > >> >> -----Original Message----- > > >> >> From: Braver, Ben [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > >> >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 11:14 AM > > >> >> To: CF-Community > > >> >> Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > >> >> > > >> >> Kevin- > > >> >> but they are not Jews. > > >> >> -Ben > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > > >> >> > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > >> >> > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 9:12 AM > > >> >> > To: CF-Community > > >> >> > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Yes, technically they are Christians, however they still > incorporate > > >> >> > Jewish traditions. :) > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Kevin > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > > >> >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >> >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > >> >> > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 11:09 AM > > >> >> > To: CF-Community > > >> >> > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > >> >> > > > >> >> > You mean Christians? > > >> >> > > > >> >> > At 11:54 AM 4/12/02, you wrote: > > >> >> > >Don't forget messianic Jews. > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >-----Original Message----- > > >> >> > >From: Braver, Ben [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > >> >> > >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 10:45 AM > > >> >> > >To: CF-Community > > >> >> > >Subject: RE:Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >Michael, > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >I do not want to start a fight. But I am quite upset. > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >I take strong exception to your use of the phrase "a > > >> >> > rational rejected > > >> >> > >by > > >> >> > >religious Jews". > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >I *am* a religious Jew. > > >> >> > >But I am *not* an Orthodox Jew, I am a Reform Jew. > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >I recognize there being (at least) three movements > in the Jewish > > >> >> > >religion - > > >> >> > >Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform. I consider all three of > > >> >> > them valid > > >> >> > >and > > >> >> > >their members religious. There are also secular > Jews. I am not a > > >> >> > secular > > >> >> > >Jew. > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >In my mind, you are a religious Orthodox Jew. I am a > > >> >> religious Reform > > >> >> > >Jew. > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >Apparently that mode of thinking only works in one > direction. > > >> >> > >This just backs up my previous posts about religious > > >> >> > discrimination in > > >> >> > >Israel by Orthodox against other movements. > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > ><and, oh by the way, the word is "rationale"> > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >-Ben > > >> >> > >:-( > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> >> > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >> >> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > >> >> > >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:40 AM > > >> >> > >> To: CF-Community > > >> >> > >> Subject: Re: Circumcision article link > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> Actually, a religious person (at least this one) > looks at it > > >> >> > >> and says that its a commandment and I'm doing it > because its > > >> >> > >> a commandment. If science says that the commandment has a > > >> >> > >> physical effect, then fine and good. The > physical effect is > > >> >> > >> totally secondary to the spiritual effect. > > >> >> > >> To say that the commandment or every commandment > was done for > > >> >> > >> a physical reason such as health opens the door > to denial of > > >> >> > >> the root of the commandment. Hey, not eating > pork was because > > >> >> > >> of trichinosis. If we cook it right then we > wouldn't get the > > >> >> > >> disease and we can now eat it. Same for all the other > > >> >> > >> commandments. This is the rational of the reform > movement and > > >> >> > >> a rational rejected by religious Jews. > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> At 03:51 AM 4/12/02, you wrote: > > >> >> > >> >It seems that much of the old testament law, such as > > >> >> > >> circumcision, what to eat and not to eat, etc., > has a good > > >> >> > >> basis in what is healthy, especailly given the lack of > > >> >> > >> sanitary conditions of the times. > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >> >A religious person might argue that this is God > making up > > >> >> > >> the lack of science of the time to protect people. A > > >> >> > >> non-believer might argue that this is wise > people coming up > > >> >> > >> religious law to mirror their own observations about what > > >> >> > >> makes a person sick. Either way, it > demonstrates a good deal > > >> >> > >> of wisdom in the old books. > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >> >H. > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >> >---------- Original Message > ---------------------------------- > > >> >> > >> >from: "Braver, Ben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >> >> > >> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >> >> > >> >date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 19:56:23 -0700 > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >> >>Found a link to the original article on > circumcision & risk > > >> >> > >> of cervical > > >> >> > >> >>cancer - it's in the New England Journal of Medicine: > > >> >> > >> >>http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/346/15/1105 > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >>Apparently, the foreskin is particularly susceptible to > > >> >> > >> infection from HPV - > > >> >> > >> >>human papilloma virus - which is linked to > cervical cancer. > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >>-Ben > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. 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