Anne As an ordinary Club member which is what I am who happens to attend Club meeting in an Honorary position. I do not think it appropriate that I should be bringing to their attention emails addressed to me personally. However I will say that the person who inputs the data into the heart list I think has more than enough work with that alone -again this is my personal opinion, after all there are no paid employees of the Club - all work is carried out in a voluntary capacity Should you wish your suggestion brought to the attention of the Committee perhaps you could write addressing it to the Committee
Regards Annette ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cavatibs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 6:13 AM Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Why NOT boast about testing? > Wow! Two heart clinics in England (which is about the size of Connecticut - > and I mean just England, not Scotland as well) with another one now and again > is alot. Plus being held in conjunction with the Championship shows where most > breeders are going anyway (judging by the huge entries). That is far more > accessible than what we have here. > > I was not responding to your personal opinion - sorry I did not make that > clear. I was just pointing out that the UK Cavalier Club must have had a > reason to publish a Heart Registry. They didn't just wake up one morning and > say, let's publish a heart registry. Didn't the UK Cavalier Club start the > Heart Registry shortly after your initial Heart Symposium some 5 years or so > ago? Something must have come to light at that Symposium to warrant the > publication of this Heart Registry. I am sure alot of thought went into it -- > I know it did with our Health Registry here in the USA. > > Your point is well taken that you do not care for people who want to know all > about everyone's business -- called a "nosey parker" (I think this is an > Englishism -- can't tell the difference any more between what's English and > what's American!). But we are not talking about people who want to know your > deepest, darkest secrets. We are trying to breed healthy dogs and without the > cooperation and therefore assistance of other breeders, it is not possible for > us to do this. Personally, I have never had a problem divulging good and bad > health test results to those who ask -- I am always thrilled when my dogs pass > their tests, young or old. So many British dogs join us here in the USA -- > wouldn't it be wonderful to know the health background of these dogs? This is > where the UK Heart Registry is so helpful and important. > > >From what I can see, the majority of Cavaliers bred in the USA (and I am not > talking about the Cavaliers in Pet Shops, Auctions , Puppy Mills etc) both in > the CKCSC and AKC are examined by a Board Certified Cardiologist annually or > sometimes a little less often but nonetheless seen by a Cardiologist several > times in their lifetime (and if they are not, then shame on their > breeder/owners). Most of the breeders here are really very diligent about > making sure their dogs are cardiologist clear before breeding them -- I think > members of this list would agree with me here -- hopefully?!! The same is > true in Canada where in addition they color doppler their dogs -- how often, I > don't know. The Scandinavian Countries all have heart protocols that involve > cardiologists and in Germany they must color doppler all Cavaliers at 2 yrs of > age plus they are encouraged to stethoscopically examine them annually by a > cardiologist. If they do not pass a doppler at 2 yrs, then they cannot be > bred. > > In Britain (and I think in France too, although I really don't know) very few > of the dogs are seen by cardiologists. Why? This is a tragic state of affairs > especially when Britain is where Cavaliers originated and so many British dogs > are exported annually all over the world therefore their good and bad genes are > also spread all over the world. Certainly we hear about lines from various > countries that lead long, healthy lives but we also hear of so many of them > that do not. Note the emphasis on "hear" as this is all it is -- and we have > to base our breeding programs on third and fourth hand information which may or > may not be correct. > > Out of interest, can anyone tell us what efforts are being made in Britain by > the breeders to reduce the incidence of MVD in Cavaliers? What about in > France? and Australia and New Zealand? It is very interesting to hear how > other breeders are dealing with this problem. We all battle MVD -- no-one is > void of it. So how do we all proceed with our breeding plans in all the > various counrtries? What programs are being/have been started in all these > countries regarding MVD or any other health problems for that matter? > > This post is not directed at you personally, Annette, but certainly it is food > for thought and I hope you will take this to your UK Cavalier Club Meetings and > think about how we can all band together and help each other - for the sake of > Cavaliers! It would be nice if the "mother country" of Cavaliers could > initiate a world wide MVD program where we could all participate. > > Anne > > > > > > Annette Jones wrote: > > > Anne > > > > "(despite Cardiology clinics held at many of the UK shows)." > > > > A slight exaggeration Anne I can think of only two Clubs - the National and > > the Southern that routinely run Cardiology clinics - some of the others do > > on an ad hoc basis. The fact that many members use their vets is because the > > Cardiologists that are here in this country are few and far between. > > > > "If it is none of anyone's business, then why does the Cavalier Club feel > > the need to publish this Heart Registry?" > > You are using this out of context - I was writing about my personal opinion. > > By all means if people wish to publish they are free to do so but that does > > not make others wrong who do not wish to. I used to tick the box that said I > > did not wish the information published even though the dogs were eligible to > > be entered - the two that are on is because I forgot to tick the box VBG > > I suppose I am old fashioned but I abhor the attitude of some that consider > > it their "right" to know everything about other peoples business and if they > > don't get said information take a holier than thou attitude. > > I was brought to believe it was "polite" to ask but also to accept that it > > was the other persons "right" not to reply if they didn't wish to. > > Strangely enough whenever I have followed this edict (drilled into me by my > > aunt) the information and more has been freely given to me > > > > Annette > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Cavatibs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 7:10 PM > > Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Why NOT boast about testing? > > > > > The UK Cavalier Club publishes a Heart Registry, updated every year, in > > which > > > is listed Cavaliers (over five years or any age? I can't remember) with > > clear > > > heart certificates (but not necessarily from a cardiologist - infact less > > than > > > 10% are checked by a Cardiologist despite Cardiology clinics held at many > > of > > > the UK shows). If it is none of anyone's business, then why does the > > Cavalier > > > Club feel the need to publish this Heart Registry? > > > > > > The CKCSC also has a Health Registry where dogs of 5 yrs and older with > > clear > > > cardiology heart test results are published (as well as doppler, eye, > > patella, > > > OFA hips as a voluntary addition). Also in this Registry is a list of > > deceased > > > dogs that have lived to 12 yrs of age. Also in this Registry is a list of > > Stud > > > dogs and Bitches who have produced three or more offspring whose hearts > > were > > > cleared by a cardiologist over the age of 5 yrs. (If anyone would like a > > copy > > > of this Registry, or the one from England, you can contact me privately). > > > > > > In my recent communication with Dr Swensen, a geneticist in Sweden, he > > stressed > > > the importance of "families". It is vital that we all know about the > > families > > > of the dogs we are breeding to and from. This is why supporting the > > > Health/Heart Registries in one's respective country is so important and it > > is > > > also why health test results are the business of everyone who breeds > > Cavaliers. > > > > > > It is my understanding that it would be better to breed a borderline (note > > I > > > did not say mild, moderate or severe) dysplastic dog from a litter of OFA > > good > > > siblings than to breed an OFA good dog from a litter of dysplastic > > offspring - > > > but in order to make this decision, you need to know about the siblings. > > > Likewise, it would surely then be better to breed a dog who has just come > > up > > > with a grade I murmur at 5 yrs (note I did not say a grade III murmur at 3 > > yrs > > > of age) whose entire family history have cardiologist clear hearts than a > > > one-off dog with a clear heart until 7 yrs but whose entire family heart > > > history is bad. Someone once said, without knowledge of the families' > > heart > > > status, you are breeding blind -- sort of like trying to fix your > > automobile by > > > randomly selecting various and sundry parts from your neighbors car. It > > > doesn't work well, if at all. > > > > > > So ..... don't you all think that it is better to work together, health > > test > > > the dogs, provide the test results, support the various Club's Health / > > Heart > > > Registries and in general be a little prouder of one's own health tested > > dogs > > > and a little more supportive of those who own healthy dogs, joining them > > in > > > their enthusiasm that their dog is older and healthy? It would be to the > > > benefit of all Cavaliers. > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Annette Jones wrote: > > > > > > > Well personally I don't think it is anyone's business but mine what I > > test > > > > for. Should anyone wish to use one of my dogs or buy one of my puppies I > > > > will produce the necessary documentation for them to see. Meanwhile I am > > far > > > > to busy in my life to be broadcasting to the world in general every test > > > > result - the result is only worth as much as the paper it is written > > on - a > > > > dog could be clear when tested last month and have a grade 1 this month. > > > > Neither do I think I should "be using all my persuasive powers to > > encourage > > > > others" - to me it is up to their own conscience and sounds rather like > > > > harassment > > > > > > > > Just my opinion VBG > > > > > > > > Annette > > > > - > > > > > > ========================================================= > > > "Magic Commands": > > > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > > > to start it up gain click here: > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > > > > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. > > > Search the Archives... http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > > > > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original author. > > > > > > > ========================================================= > > "Magic Commands": > > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > > to start it up gain click here: > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. > > Search the Archives... http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original author. > > ========================================================= > "Magic Commands": > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > to start it up gain click here: > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. > Search the Archives... http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original author. > ========================================================= "Magic Commands": to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL to start it up gain click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. 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