Actually, I was not aware that entered dogs only were allowed at the shows - this is true of AKC shows but it is a rule that is not adhered to. However, with 300 to 600 entries of show dogs that are obviously being actively shown and therefore bred, one would have thought that the UK Heart Registry would have been chock full of all the well-known, breedable dog -- yet this is not the case. The 10% of dogs that were cardiology heart tested and listed in the UK Heart Registry consist mostly of dogs I have never heard of. Not having the list at hand right now, the only dog that springs to mind that was in there was Ch. Telvara Karbon Kopy. I am sure there were a few others -- but very few.
It is wonderful if the older dogs are heart clear but it is much more important to clear the younger ones (such as those being shown) so that they can be removed from the breeding program if indeed they have early MVD. As I recall, Simon Swift (cardiologist for the club show) sees fewer and fewer dogs each year and the people I see lining up to have their dogs examined are certainly not the major UK breeders. Anne Annette Jones wrote: > Wow! Two heart clinics in England (which is about the size of Connecticut - > and I mean just England, not Scotland as well) with another one now and > again > is a lot. Plus being held in conjunction with the Championship shows where > most > breeders are going anyway (judging by the huge entries). > > Anne > I am sure that you are aware that according to KC rules only dogs actually > entered at the show are supposed to be within the precincts of the show. > Also they take a very dim view of dogs been left in parked cars. > Therefore it is not surprising that only (I believe you quoted 10% )of dogs > on the heart list are cardiologist tested. > I believe this is not the case in the US - you can take as many dogs as you > like to be tested at a clinic and they don't necessarily have to be entered > in competition > I am sure that many breeders would avail themselves of the clinic > particularly for their older dogs but for the above mentioned rules. I know > I would. > If you consider that a high proportion of the dogs entered at the Club show > will also be going to the other regional club shows - they are not going to > repeat the testing should there be a clinic at one of those shows > I have changed the subject heading merely as it does not reflect the content > of this post > > Annette > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cavatibs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 6:13 AM > Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Why NOT boast about testing? > > > Wow! Two heart clinics in England (which is about the size of > Connecticut - > > and I mean just England, not Scotland as well) with another one now and > again > > is alot. Plus being held in conjunction with the Championship shows where > most > > breeders are going anyway (judging by the huge entries). That is far more > > accessible than what we have here. > > > > I was not responding to your personal opinion - sorry I did not make that > > clear. I was just pointing out that the UK Cavalier Club must have had a > > reason to publish a Heart Registry. They didn't just wake up one morning > and > > say, let's publish a heart registry. Didn't the UK Cavalier Club start > the > > Heart Registry shortly after your initial Heart Symposium some 5 years or > so > > ago? Something must have come to light at that Symposium to warrant the > > publication of this Heart Registry. I am sure alot of thought went into > it -- > > I know it did with our Health Registry here in the USA. > > > > Your point is well taken that you do not care for people who want to know > all > > about everyone's business -- called a "nosey parker" (I think this is an > > Englishism -- can't tell the difference any more between what's English > and > > what's American!). But we are not talking about people who want to know > your > > deepest, darkest secrets. We are trying to breed healthy dogs and without > the > > cooperation and therefore assistance of other breeders, it is not possible > for > > us to do this. Personally, I have never had a problem divulging good and > bad > > health test results to those who ask -- I am always thrilled when my dogs > pass > > their tests, young or old. So many British dogs join us here in the > USA -- > > wouldn't it be wonderful to know the health background of these dogs? > This is > > where the UK Heart Registry is so helpful and important. > > > > >From what I can see, the majority of Cavaliers bred in the USA (and I am > not > > talking about the Cavaliers in Pet Shops, Auctions , Puppy Mills etc) both > in > > the CKCSC and AKC are examined by a Board Certified Cardiologist annually > or > > sometimes a little less often but nonetheless seen by a Cardiologist > several > > times in their lifetime (and if they are not, then shame on their > > breeder/owners). Most of the breeders here are really very diligent > about > > making sure their dogs are cardiologist clear before breeding them -- I > think > > members of this list would agree with me here -- hopefully?!! The same > is > > true in Canada where in addition they color doppler their dogs -- how > often, I > > don't know. The Scandinavian Countries all have heart protocols that > involve > > cardiologists and in Germany they must color doppler all Cavaliers at 2 > yrs of > > age plus they are encouraged to stethoscopically examine them annually by > a > > cardiologist. If they do not pass a doppler at 2 yrs, then they cannot > be > > bred. > > > > In Britain (and I think in France too, although I really don't know) very > few > > of the dogs are seen by cardiologists. Why? This is a tragic state of > affairs > > especially when Britain is where Cavaliers originated and so many British > dogs > > are exported annually all over the world therefore their good and bad > genes are > > also spread all over the world. Certainly we hear about lines from > various > > countries that lead long, healthy lives but we also hear of so many of > them > > that do not. Note the emphasis on "hear" as this is all it is -- and we > have > > to base our breeding programs on third and fourth hand information which > may or > > may not be correct. > > > > Out of interest, can anyone tell us what efforts are being made in Britain > by > > the breeders to reduce the incidence of MVD in Cavaliers? What about in > > France? and Australia and New Zealand? It is very interesting to hear > how > > other breeders are dealing with this problem. We all battle MVD -- > no-one is > > void of it. So how do we all proceed with our breeding plans in all the > > various counrtries? What programs are being/have been started in all > these > > countries regarding MVD or any other health problems for that matter? > > > > This post is not directed at you personally, Annette, but certainly it is > food > > for thought and I hope you will take this to your UK Cavalier Club > Meetings and > > think about how we can all band together and help each other - for the > sake of > > Cavaliers! It would be nice if the "mother country" of Cavaliers could > > initiate a world wide MVD program where we could all participate. > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > > > > > Annette Jones wrote: > > > > > Anne > > > > > > "(despite Cardiology clinics held at many of the UK shows)." > > > > > > A slight exaggeration Anne I can think of only two Clubs - the National > and > > > the Southern that routinely run Cardiology clinics - some of the others > do > > > on an ad hoc basis. The fact that many members use their vets is because > the > > > Cardiologists that are here in this country are few and far between. > > > > > > "If it is none of anyone's business, then why does the Cavalier Club > feel > > > the need to publish this Heart Registry?" > > > You are using this out of context - I was writing about my personal > opinion. > > > By all means if people wish to publish they are free to do so but that > does > > > not make others wrong who do not wish to. I used to tick the box that > said I > > > did not wish the information published even though the dogs were > eligible to > > > be entered - the two that are on is because I forgot to tick the box VBG > > > I suppose I am old fashioned but I abhor the attitude of some that > consider > > > it their "right" to know everything about other peoples business and if > they > > > don't get said information take a holier than thou attitude. > > > I was brought to believe it was "polite" to ask but also to accept that > it > > > was the other persons "right" not to reply if they didn't wish to. > > > Strangely enough whenever I have followed this edict (drilled into me by > my > > > aunt) the information and more has been freely given to me > > > > > > Annette > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Cavatibs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 7:10 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Why NOT boast about testing? > > > > > > > The UK Cavalier Club publishes a Heart Registry, updated every year, > in > > > which > > > > is listed Cavaliers (over five years or any age? I can't remember) > with > > > clear > > > > heart certificates (but not necessarily from a cardiologist - infact > less > > > than > > > > 10% are checked by a Cardiologist despite Cardiology clinics held at > many > > > of > > > > the UK shows). If it is none of anyone's business, then why does the > > > Cavalier > > > > Club feel the need to publish this Heart Registry? > > > > > > > > The CKCSC also has a Health Registry where dogs of 5 yrs and older > with > > > clear > > > > cardiology heart test results are published (as well as doppler, eye, > > > patella, > > > > OFA hips as a voluntary addition). Also in this Registry is a list of > > > deceased > > > > dogs that have lived to 12 yrs of age. Also in this Registry is a > list of > > > Stud > > > > dogs and Bitches who have produced three or more offspring whose > hearts > > > were > > > > cleared by a cardiologist over the age of 5 yrs. (If anyone would > like a > > > copy > > > > of this Registry, or the one from England, you can contact me > privately). > > > > > > > > In my recent communication with Dr Swensen, a geneticist in Sweden, he > > > stressed > > > > the importance of "families". It is vital that we all know about the > > > families > > > > of the dogs we are breeding to and from. This is why supporting the > > > > Health/Heart Registries in one's respective country is so important > and it > > > is > > > > also why health test results are the business of everyone who breeds > > > Cavaliers. > > > > > > > > It is my understanding that it would be better to breed a borderline > (note > > > I > > > > did not say mild, moderate or severe) dysplastic dog from a litter of > OFA > > > good > > > > siblings than to breed an OFA good dog from a litter of dysplastic > > > offspring - > > > > but in order to make this decision, you need to know about the > siblings. > > > > Likewise, it would surely then be better to breed a dog who has just > come > > > up > > > > with a grade I murmur at 5 yrs (note I did not say a grade III murmur > at 3 > > > yrs > > > > of age) whose entire family history have cardiologist clear hearts > than a > > > > one-off dog with a clear heart until 7 yrs but whose entire family > heart > > > > history is bad. Someone once said, without knowledge of the families' > > > heart > > > > status, you are breeding blind -- sort of like trying to fix your > > > automobile by > > > > randomly selecting various and sundry parts from your neighbors car. > It > > > > doesn't work well, if at all. > > > > > > > > So ..... don't you all think that it is better to work together, > health > > > test > > > > the dogs, provide the test results, support the various Club's Health > / > > > Heart > > > > Registries and in general be a little prouder of one's own health > tested > > > dogs > > > > and a little more supportive of those who own healthy dogs, joining > them > > > in > > > > their enthusiasm that their dog is older and healthy? It would be to > the > > > > benefit of all Cavaliers. > > > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Annette Jones wrote: > > > > > > > > > Well personally I don't think it is anyone's business but mine what > I > > > test > > > > > for. Should anyone wish to use one of my dogs or buy one of my > puppies I > > > > > will produce the necessary documentation for them to see. Meanwhile > I am > > > far > > > > > to busy in my life to be broadcasting to the world in general every > test > > > > > result - the result is only worth as much as the paper it is written > > > on - a > > > > > dog could be clear when tested last month and have a grade 1 this > month. > > > > > Neither do I think I should "be using all my persuasive powers to > > > encourage > > > > > others" - to me it is up to their own conscience and sounds rather > like > > > > > harassment > > > > > > > > > > Just my opinion VBG > > > > > > > > > > Annette > > > > > - > > > > > > > > ========================================================= > > > > "Magic Commands": > > > > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: > > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > > > > to start it up gain click here: > > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > > > > > > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. > > > > Search the Archives... > http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > > > > > > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original > author. > > > > > > > > > > ========================================================= > > > "Magic Commands": > > > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > > > to start it up gain click here: > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > > > > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. > > > Search the Archives... http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > > > > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original author. > > > > ========================================================= > > "Magic Commands": > > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > > to start it up gain click here: > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. > > Search the Archives... http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original author. > > > > ========================================================= > "Magic Commands": > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > to start it up gain click here: > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. > Search the Archives... http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original author. ========================================================= "Magic Commands": to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL to start it up gain click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. Search the Archives... http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original author.
