Well if you can remember seeing Telvara Karbon Kopy Anne two rows below him is Timsar Able Edward - he was one of the two I forgot to tick the box for! LOL Of course I shan't ask you to divulge who you consider the major breeders - I certainly for sure am not. I am surprised though on your insistence on cardiology testing since I have known you to test dogs hearts yourself over here?
Annette ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cavatibs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Cardiology Clinics > Actually, I was not aware that entered dogs only were allowed at the shows - > this is true of AKC shows but it is a rule that is not adhered to. However, > with 300 to 600 entries of show dogs that are obviously being actively shown > and therefore bred, one would have thought that the UK Heart Registry would > have been chock full of all the well-known, breedable dog -- yet this is not > the case. The 10% of dogs that were cardiology heart tested and listed in the > UK Heart Registry consist mostly of dogs I have never heard of. Not having the > list at hand right now, the only dog that springs to mind that was in there was > Ch. Telvara Karbon Kopy. I am sure there were a few others -- but very few. > > It is wonderful if the older dogs are heart clear but it is much more important > to clear the younger ones (such as those being shown) so that they can be > removed from the breeding program if indeed they have early MVD. As I recall, > Simon Swift (cardiologist for the club show) sees fewer and fewer dogs each > year and the people I see lining up to have their dogs examined are certainly > not the major UK breeders. > > Anne > > Annette Jones wrote: > > > Wow! Two heart clinics in England (which is about the size of Connecticut - > > and I mean just England, not Scotland as well) with another one now and > > again > > is a lot. Plus being held in conjunction with the Championship shows where > > most > > breeders are going anyway (judging by the huge entries). > > > > Anne > > I am sure that you are aware that according to KC rules only dogs actually > > entered at the show are supposed to be within the precincts of the show. > > Also they take a very dim view of dogs been left in parked cars. > > Therefore it is not surprising that only (I believe you quoted 10% )of dogs > > on the heart list are cardiologist tested. > > I believe this is not the case in the US - you can take as many dogs as you > > like to be tested at a clinic and they don't necessarily have to be entered > > in competition > > I am sure that many breeders would avail themselves of the clinic > > particularly for their older dogs but for the above mentioned rules. I know > > I would. > > If you consider that a high proportion of the dogs entered at the Club show > > will also be going to the other regional club shows - they are not going to > > repeat the testing should there be a clinic at one of those shows > > I have changed the subject heading merely as it does not reflect the content > > of this post > > > > Annette > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Cavatibs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 6:13 AM > > Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Why NOT boast about testing? > > > > > Wow! Two heart clinics in England (which is about the size of > > Connecticut - > > > and I mean just England, not Scotland as well) with another one now and > > again > > > is alot. Plus being held in conjunction with the Championship shows where > > most > > > breeders are going anyway (judging by the huge entries). That is far more > > > accessible than what we have here. > > > > > > I was not responding to your personal opinion - sorry I did not make that > > > clear. I was just pointing out that the UK Cavalier Club must have had a > > > reason to publish a Heart Registry. They didn't just wake up one morning > > and > > > say, let's publish a heart registry. Didn't the UK Cavalier Club start > > the > > > Heart Registry shortly after your initial Heart Symposium some 5 years or > > so > > > ago? Something must have come to light at that Symposium to warrant the > > > publication of this Heart Registry. I am sure alot of thought went into > > it -- > > > I know it did with our Health Registry here in the USA. > > > > > > Your point is well taken that you do not care for people who want to know > > all > > > about everyone's business -- called a "nosey parker" (I think this is an > > > Englishism -- can't tell the difference any more between what's English > > and > > > what's American!). But we are not talking about people who want to know > > your > > > deepest, darkest secrets. We are trying to breed healthy dogs and without > > the > > > cooperation and therefore assistance of other breeders, it is not possible > > for > > > us to do this. Personally, I have never had a problem divulging good and > > bad > > > health test results to those who ask -- I am always thrilled when my dogs > > pass > > > their tests, young or old. So many British dogs join us here in the > > USA -- > > > wouldn't it be wonderful to know the health background of these dogs? > > This is > > > where the UK Heart Registry is so helpful and important. > > > > > > >From what I can see, the majority of Cavaliers bred in the USA (and I am > > not > > > talking about the Cavaliers in Pet Shops, Auctions , Puppy Mills etc) both > > in > > > the CKCSC and AKC are examined by a Board Certified Cardiologist annually > > or > > > sometimes a little less often but nonetheless seen by a Cardiologist > > several > > > times in their lifetime (and if they are not, then shame on their > > > breeder/owners). Most of the breeders here are really very diligent > > about > > > making sure their dogs are cardiologist clear before breeding them -- I > > think > > > members of this list would agree with me here -- hopefully?!! The same > > is > > > true in Canada where in addition they color doppler their dogs -- how > > often, I > > > don't know. The Scandinavian Countries all have heart protocols that > > involve > > > cardiologists and in Germany they must color doppler all Cavaliers at 2 > > yrs of > > > age plus they are encouraged to stethoscopically examine them annually by > > a > > > cardiologist. If they do not pass a doppler at 2 yrs, then they cannot > > be > > > bred. > > > > > > In Britain (and I think in France too, although I really don't know) very > > few > > > of the dogs are seen by cardiologists. Why? This is a tragic state of > > affairs > > > especially when Britain is where Cavaliers originated and so many British > > dogs > > > are exported annually all over the world therefore their good and bad > > genes are > > > also spread all over the world. Certainly we hear about lines from > > various > > > countries that lead long, healthy lives but we also hear of so many of > > them > > > that do not. Note the emphasis on "hear" as this is all it is -- and we > > have > > > to base our breeding programs on third and fourth hand information which > > may or > > > may not be correct. > > > > > > Out of interest, can anyone tell us what efforts are being made in Britain > > by > > > the breeders to reduce the incidence of MVD in Cavaliers? What about in > > > France? and Australia and New Zealand? It is very interesting to hear > > how > > > other breeders are dealing with this problem. We all battle MVD -- > > no-one is > > > void of it. So how do we all proceed with our breeding plans in all the > > > various counrtries? What programs are being/have been started in all > > these > > > countries regarding MVD or any other health problems for that matter? > > > > > > This post is not directed at you personally, Annette, but certainly it is > > food > > > for thought and I hope you will take this to your UK Cavalier Club > > Meetings and > > > think about how we can all band together and help each other - for the > > sake of > > > Cavaliers! It would be nice if the "mother country" of Cavaliers could > > > initiate a world wide MVD program where we could all participate. > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Annette Jones wrote: > > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > "(despite Cardiology clinics held at many of the UK shows)." > > > > > > > > A slight exaggeration Anne I can think of only two Clubs - the National > > and > > > > the Southern that routinely run Cardiology clinics - some of the others > > do > > > > on an ad hoc basis. The fact that many members use their vets is because > > the > > > > Cardiologists that are here in this country are few and far between. > > > > > > > > "If it is none of anyone's business, then why does the Cavalier Club > > feel > > > > the need to publish this Heart Registry?" > > > > You are using this out of context - I was writing about my personal > > opinion. > > > > By all means if people wish to publish they are free to do so but that > > does > > > > not make others wrong who do not wish to. I used to tick the box that > > said I > > > > did not wish the information published even though the dogs were > > eligible to > > > > be entered - the two that are on is because I forgot to tick the box VBG > > > > I suppose I am old fashioned but I abhor the attitude of some that > > consider > > > > it their "right" to know everything about other peoples business and if > > they > > > > don't get said information take a holier than thou attitude. > > > > I was brought to believe it was "polite" to ask but also to accept that > > it > > > > was the other persons "right" not to reply if they didn't wish to. > > > > Strangely enough whenever I have followed this edict (drilled into me by > > my > > > > aunt) the information and more has been freely given to me > > > > > > > > Annette > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Cavatibs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 7:10 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Why NOT boast about testing? > > > > > > > > > The UK Cavalier Club publishes a Heart Registry, updated every year, > > in > > > > which > > > > > is listed Cavaliers (over five years or any age? I can't remember) > > with > > > > clear > > > > > heart certificates (but not necessarily from a cardiologist - infact > > less > > > > than > > > > > 10% are checked by a Cardiologist despite Cardiology clinics held at > > many > > > > of > > > > > the UK shows). If it is none of anyone's business, then why does the > > > > Cavalier > > > > > Club feel the need to publish this Heart Registry? > > > > > > > > > > The CKCSC also has a Health Registry where dogs of 5 yrs and older > > with > > > > clear > > > > > cardiology heart test results are published (as well as doppler, eye, > > > > patella, > > > > > OFA hips as a voluntary addition). Also in this Registry is a list of > > > > deceased > > > > > dogs that have lived to 12 yrs of age. Also in this Registry is a > > list of > > > > Stud > > > > > dogs and Bitches who have produced three or more offspring whose > > hearts > > > > were > > > > > cleared by a cardiologist over the age of 5 yrs. (If anyone would > > like a > > > > copy > > > > > of this Registry, or the one from England, you can contact me > > privately). > > > > > > > > > > In my recent communication with Dr Swensen, a geneticist in Sweden, he > > > > stressed > > > > > the importance of "families". It is vital that we all know about the > > > > families > > > > > of the dogs we are breeding to and from. This is why supporting the > > > > > Health/Heart Registries in one's respective country is so important > > and it > > > > is > > > > > also why health test results are the business of everyone who breeds > > > > Cavaliers. > > > > > > > > > > It is my understanding that it would be better to breed a borderline > > (note > > > > I > > > > > did not say mild, moderate or severe) dysplastic dog from a litter of > > OFA > > > > good > > > > > siblings than to breed an OFA good dog from a litter of dysplastic > > > > offspring - > > > > > but in order to make this decision, you need to know about the > > siblings. > > > > > Likewise, it would surely then be better to breed a dog who has just > > come > > > > up > > > > > with a grade I murmur at 5 yrs (note I did not say a grade III murmur > > at 3 > > > > yrs > > > > > of age) whose entire family history have cardiologist clear hearts > > than a > > > > > one-off dog with a clear heart until 7 yrs but whose entire family > > heart > > > > > history is bad. Someone once said, without knowledge of the families' > > > > heart > > > > > status, you are breeding blind -- sort of like trying to fix your > > > > automobile by > > > > > randomly selecting various and sundry parts from your neighbors car. > > It > > > > > doesn't work well, if at all. > > > > > > > > > > So ..... don't you all think that it is better to work together, > > health > > > > test > > > > > the dogs, provide the test results, support the various Club's Health > > / > > > > Heart > > > > > Registries and in general be a little prouder of one's own health > > tested > > > > dogs > > > > > and a little more supportive of those who own healthy dogs, joining > > them > > > > in > > > > > their enthusiasm that their dog is older and healthy? It would be to > > the > > > > > benefit of all Cavaliers. > > > > > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Annette Jones wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Well personally I don't think it is anyone's business but mine what > > I > > > > test > > > > > > for. Should anyone wish to use one of my dogs or buy one of my > > puppies I > > > > > > will produce the necessary documentation for them to see. Meanwhile > > I am > > > > far > > > > > > to busy in my life to be broadcasting to the world in general every > > test > > > > > > result - the result is only worth as much as the paper it is written > > > > on - a > > > > > > dog could be clear when tested last month and have a grade 1 this > > month. > > > > > > Neither do I think I should "be using all my persuasive powers to > > > > encourage > > > > > > others" - to me it is up to their own conscience and sounds rather > > like > > > > > > harassment > > > > > > > > > > > > Just my opinion VBG > > > > > > > > > > > > Annette > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > ========================================================= > > > > > "Magic Commands": > > > > > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: > > > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > > > > > to start it up gain click here: > > > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > > > > > > > > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. > > > > > Search the Archives... > > http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > > > > > > > > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original > > author. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========================================================= > > > > "Magic Commands": > > > > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: > > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > > > > to start it up gain click here: > > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > > > > > > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. > > > > Search the Archives... http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > > > > > > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original author. > > > > > > ========================================================= > > > "Magic Commands": > > > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > > > to start it up gain click here: > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > > > > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. > > > Search the Archives... http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > > > > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original author. > > > > > > > ========================================================= > > "Magic Commands": > > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > > to start it up gain click here: > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. > > Search the Archives... http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original author. > > ========================================================= > "Magic Commands": > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > to start it up gain click here: > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. > Search the Archives... http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original author. ========================================================= "Magic Commands": to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL to start it up gain click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. Search the Archives... http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original author.
